planesofthepast
Topic Author
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:29 pm

Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:53 pm

I've been fascinated by this topic for a while: the construction of Greater Southwest International Airport in Texas, and its subsequent destruction in a period of just a few years. Those who live in the Dallas - Fort Worth area are probably familiar with the story. Those that have flown into the DFW Airport may have seen the site of the former airport at landing or takeoff.

Here's a quick summary of story as I understand it ...

http://www.planesofthepast.com/amon-...outhwest-international-airport.htm
 
AADC10
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:09 pm

There are more pictures and details on the Abandoned and Little Known Airfields website:

http://members.tripod.com/airfields_...fields_TX_FtWorth_NE.htm#greaterSW
 
thomasphoto60
Posts: 3716
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 1:04 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:19 pm

Was GSW a true "international" airport?
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
Cipango
Posts: 1451
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:55 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:48 pm

CVG and CLE to me have deteriorated as an "International" airport.

They once had large networks across the USA and Europe on DL and Co respectively.

Now they're a focus city at most.
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
timz
Posts: 6114
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:51 pm

Did it ever have a nonstop outside the US... I'm guessing not. For most of its life half? its nonstops were to DAL.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting cipango (Reply 3):
CVG and CLE to me have deteriorated as an "International" airport.

They once had large networks across the USA and Europe on DL and Co respectively.

Now they're a focus city at most.

Don't forget MEM after the DL/NW merger (though you do have options at MEM if you ship yourself via FX). In many cases, the pax service at MEM is now worse than that at CLE or CVG.

Also of note are the many airports that don't have an FIS but have a CBP facility for cargo or general aviation. My hometown airport FWA springs to mind, but they plan on adding an FIS in the next terminal renovation. And there are some "international" airports that have zero passenger service; HUF is notable here.

[Edited 2012-11-05 16:00:57]
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
canyonblue17
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:22 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:18 am

What about PIT after US downsized....
negative ghostrider the pattern is full
 
User avatar
bwest
Posts: 1119
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:54 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:24 am

It's a shame to see such a nice art deco building demolished as late as in 1980. If only we had more respect for such architectural marvels...
I love my Airport Job! :)
 
dcann40
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:38 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting bwest (Reply 7):
It's a shame to see such a nice art deco building demolished as late as in 1980. If only we had more respect for such architectural marvels...

I agree completely. Demolishing it was a crime. This is why I have such strong feelings about knocking down the PAA Worldport. Once something is gone, it's gone.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:45 am

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 6):
What about PIT after US downsized....

The ultimate case study of what a dehubbing can do to an airport. US did far more damage to PIT in the course of three to four years than AA did to STL in ten years.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4640
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
The ultimate case study of what a dehubbing can do to an airport. US did far more damage to PIT in the course of three to four years than AA did to STL in ten years.

You can't compare the two. AA was a slow drawdown driven by their own competing hubs, and where other airlines (notably WN) have picked up at least some of the slack.

PIT was a sudden move, and despite the fact that it's been 7 years since the dehubbing began, no airlines have filled in the gap, which implies PIT itself is uneconomical.

Just my   
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
DariusBieber
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:12 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:20 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 5):
though you do have options at MEM if you ship yourself via FX

Probably cheaper and better service than most US Airlines.
Darius Bieber
 
neveragain
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:59 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:41 am

Quoting cipango (Reply 3):
They once had large networks across the USA and Europe on DL and Co respectively.
CVG to Europe, maybe. CLE, never. In any case, I doubt the number of nonstop destinations from CLE today is that much different from the number in 2000. Maybe 30 fewer destinations, tops, but I wouldn't consider losing nonstops to GRB, FWA, and the like as meaningful indicators of the "fall" of a great "international" hub.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 5):
Don't forget MEM after the DL/NW merger (though you do have options at MEM if you ship yourself via FX).

File MEM with CLE. Never a (passenger) international hub.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):

The ultimate case study of what a dehubbing can do to an airport. US did far more damage to PIT in the course of three to four years than AA did to STL in ten years.

How do you figure?



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
PIT was a sudden move, and despite the fact that it's been 7 years since the dehubbing began, no airlines have filled in the gap, which implies PIT itself is uneconomical.

That's a broad-brush statement to make. What makes a market "uneconomical"? Do you mean "uneconomical" for an airline to serve as a hub? What airports that have lost a hub have seen comparable service from a replacement airline?

[Edited 2012-11-05 20:43:13]


[Edited 2012-11-05 20:46:08]
 
sccutler
Posts: 5580
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:05 am

The terminal building at GSW was amazingly beautiful, and a very modern terminal for its time. Even after all airlines had withdrawn from serving the airport, the City of Fort Worth doggedly continued to maintain the terminal and, when you went in there, it looked as if at any moment the barber would return, the restaurant would reopen, etc. The bas relief mural in the great hall was amazing.

It is too bad, indeed, that no part of it was saved.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
797
Posts: 1386
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:35 pm

What about Milan-Malpensa (MXP) ?

This airport went down the drains when Alitalia pulled out in 2009... the only thing keeping it alive is the long-haul carriers coming in from Asia/America/Africa... and just because they can't land in Milan-Linate (LIN).

797
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
katanapilot
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:25 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:55 pm

I'm pretty sure the biggest rise and fall of an airport in aviation history would be Mirabel (YMX). It was the largest airport by area in the world for 24 years and at one point was intended to have six terminals and six runways and be one of the busiest airports in the world!

Now it just handles cargo :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montr%C...80%93Mirabel_International_Airport
 
User avatar
BasilFawlty
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:23 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting 797 (Reply 14):
What about Milan-Malpensa (MXP) ?

This airport went down the drains when Alitalia pulled out in 2009... the only thing keeping it alive is the long-haul carriers coming in from Asia/America/Africa... and just because they can't land in Milan-Linate (LIN).

Are you serious? Passenger figures have fully recovered and are still increasing, thanks to easyJet, which is now a massive player at the airport.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 13988
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting katanapilot (Reply 15):
Now it just handles cargo :p

And is where the Bombardier CR7/9/10s have their first flights...
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 1797
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
no airlines have filled in the gap, which implies PIT itself is uneconomical.

I wouldn't say that. I think it's more a case that most Airlines are uneconomical, and are waking up to the fact that they can barely afford to hold onto what they already have; forget about opening new hubs. Personally, I think it's really too bad about PIT. I think it would work as a great hub for someone like VX, F9, or even B6. Problem is that none of those airlines can afford to do that. But if they were able to somehow, or had somehow done so in the past, I think PIT would be working great for them just about now.

On the actual topic, until very recently, I lived right on the large patch of ground that GSW occupied. If it makes everyone feel any better, it's being developed rather nicely these days, but not at the break-neck 1990s - 2000s pace. There's actually some of the old runway still left at the end of Amon Carter (just north of 183), where one can see
Airport Police and Emergency Services routinely practicing driving maneuvers.
Be A Perfectionst, You're Nothing If You're Just Another; Something Material, This Isn't Personal...
 
26point2
Posts: 816
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:57 pm

Most who drive past the old airport or live in the new townhouses built on the site are surely not aware of the history. I stay at the DFW Marriott South while at CAE Simuflite training...was there last week. The hotel is on the old site too and hotel staff I talked to have no idea.

There are still some spots with bits and pieces of access roads, trees that once lined the old terminal entrance are still there and a bit of runway/taxiway but one has to know what to look for. What's left blends in with the current "landscape" and I imagine will be built over in another 10 years.

I notice the AA training facility is located in a spot that would have once been across the road from the airport entrance. Not sure how long AA has been in this spot but curious if this is coincidence or was the location determined when this old airport was functioning?
 
eclipseflight7
Posts: 482
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:00 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:35 pm

The majority of the airports listed in posts above have no context to the OP's discussion. Pittsburgh, Memphis, and STL still exist, and are not in any danger of being ripped up or built over. Amon Carter Field wasn't dehubbed and had idle gates, and frankly thats a discussion for a different thread. GSW was systematically built and destroyed in a pissing contest between Dallas and Fort Worth.

The then mayor of Fort Worth, Amon Carter, was a staunch proponent that his city was far better than Dallas, and insisted on lobbying for the continued development of GSW. The FAA was sick of funding two separate airports that served the same community, so saying DAL was more successful isn't totally correct. GSW had far better infrastructure compared to Love Field, and frankly I think it was a waste to not use GSW's infrastructure when DFW was relatively green-fielded. Then again, DFW made a lot more sense when DAL was supposed to be shut down. Had Southwest existed a few years earlier and been privvy to the agreement to move to DFW, GSW 's destruction

American's flight attendant training facility issues pay stubs with the airport base code as GSW. The Abandoned Airfields website, which is freaking awesome for all airports by the way, gives a good narrative of what happened.
Holy sh*ts and burritos.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:55 pm

Thanks planeofthepast for posting this, it is a fascinating topic, and answered a question I have had for years. Flying in an out of DFW, I often saw the north end of 17/35 and wondered what it was.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
goldenargosy
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:43 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:12 pm

GSW is nothing compared to this International Airport...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BsFQAAblL8
 
User avatar
KGRB
Posts: 647
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:19 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 12):
I doubt the number of nonstop destinations from CLE today is that much different from the number in 2000. Maybe 30 fewer destinations, tops, but I wouldn't consider losing nonstops to GRB, FWA, and the like as meaningful indicators of the "fall" of a great "international" hub.

Not to take away from your point, but GRB actually does have CLE service. While it was cut in 2008, CO reinstated the route in 2010 and UA continues to run it, 2x daily on the ERJ-145.
Flown on 9E/AA/AL/CP/DL/EV/HP/MQ/NW/PT/OO/OH/UA/US/XJ/YV/YX/ZW
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4640
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:41 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 12):
What airports that have lost a hub have seen comparable service from a replacement airline?

BWI?
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
Quoting neveragain (Reply 12):
What airports that have lost a hub have seen comparable service from a replacement airline?

BWI?

Thanks to WN, BWI is one.

BNA and RDU, both former AA hubs, have also seen very high levels of WN service to fill the void after AA's mid-1990s dehubbing of both cities.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
ScottB
Posts: 5450
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting eclipseflight7 (Reply 20):
The then mayor of Fort Worth, Amon Carter, was a staunch proponent that his city was far better than Dallas, and insisted on lobbying for the continued development of GSW.

And, to be honest, the siting and design of GSW were intentional snubs to Dallas, with the airport being entirely (or very nearly so) in Tarrant County, being closer to Fort Worth, and having the entrance on the Fort Worth side of the airfield. And DAL continued to draw plenty of traffic in spite of its limitations, so Dallas had little incentive to partner with Fort Worth on an airport which had been very provocatively named after a politician who had frequently and publicly badmouthed Dallas.

If we look at the design of DFW, the terminal area and entrances are a compromise between the two cities, with the terminals laid out on either side of International Parkway, which is virtually equidistant between the cities and practically on the county line. The entrances to the airport are also basically equidistant from the two cities and are on the northern and southern perimeters of the property so that neither the city to the west nor the city to the east is favored.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 1797
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):

If we look at the design of DFW, the terminal area and entrances are a compromise between the two cities, with the terminals laid out on either side of International Parkway, which is virtually equidistant between the cities and practically on the county line.

The county line is on property, but it is indeed very far east of the terminals; they are all solidly w/in Tarrant county, as well as every cargo ramp except FedEx.
Be A Perfectionst, You're Nothing If You're Just Another; Something Material, This Isn't Personal...
 
neveragain
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:59 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:36 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
BWI?
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 25):

BNA and RDU, both former AA hubs, have also seen very high levels of WN service to fill the void after AA's mid-1990s dehubbing of both cities.

One could argue that. But I would argue that BWI's trajectory as a PHL-type operation, or BNA's or RDU's trajectory as a domestic connecting hub is much different than WN's pattern of service.

If you guys feel that BWI has completely "recovered" and then some, as measured by total seats, I would agree. But the service patterns are completely different, and most on this forum (as far as I can tell) would argue that a US hub at BWI is preferable to a WN "busy airport" (as they don't have any designation).

Anyway, the reason we're talking about this is because I asked Maverick what he meant by PIT being uneconomical. I value his opinion (i.e., ready to learn), and I'd like to understand why he feels that way to make the following post:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):

PIT was a sudden move, and despite the fact that it's been 7 years since the dehubbing began, no airlines have filled in the gap, which implies PIT itself is uneconomical.

I just don't agree with the statement (partially because I don't understand it). If it's due to airport costs after US left, ACAA designed that terminal to US Airways' specifications, with its consent. So you would be arguing ACAA should have told US to go fly a kite when US came to ACAA and said, "Build us a new terminal, please, and here's what we're going to do with it." It pains me when Pittsburghers on this board blame ACAA as the reason for US closing the hub.

Such an interesting line of reasoning because I think it's in conflict with the standard way of thinking here, in which my impression is most posters would say that airlines should be given the farm if they promise new air service.

The only other argument you could make would be an airline profitability argument, due to lower fares driven by increased airline competition. I'd like to understand why PIT is different than any other medium hub airport in this regard.
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2802
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:05 pm

There was another site featuring old terminals that has since archived, but you can still access the site through the internet archives aka The Wayback Time Machine. Here was the page on that site that had info & some photographs of GSW

GSW - Greater Southwest International Airport

(Be patient - The Wayback Time Machine page shows up first, then about 10 seconds later the page on GSW will appear.)

LoneStarMike
 
incitatus
Posts: 2713
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:51 am

Quoting goldenargosy (Reply 22):
GSW is nothing compared to this International Airport...

YMX is a monument to human stupidity.
Stop pop up ads
 
zrs70
Posts: 3330
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 4:08 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:12 am

Quoting neveragain (Reply 12):
CLE, never

If I recall, CO had 757's to LHR from CLE.

JAT also had charter flights to CLE:

JAT In Cleveland (by DIA77 Sep 11 2000 in Civil Aviation)
17 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2016
 
neveragain
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:59 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 31):
If I recall, CO had 757's to LHR from CLE.

And CDG as well, although (IIRC) not at the same time as LHR.

But 2 (or 3 routes, stretching back to the 1980s) does not constitute a "large network to Europe."
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:48 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 32):
And CDG as well, although (IIRC) not at the same time as LHR.

I think for one season when CO was still in SkyTeam, CO flew to LGW (not LHR, as US/EU Open Skies wasn't in effect yet) and CDG, codesharing with AF on the CDG route.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
neveragain
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:59 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 33):
I think for one season when CO was still in SkyTeam, CO flew to LGW (not LHR, as US/EU Open Skies wasn't in effect yet) and CDG, codesharing with AF on the CDG route.


According to OAG:

LGW operated from summer 1999 to September 2001, April 2002 to September 2003, when it became seasonal (May to September) in 2004-2008.

CDG operated from May 2008 to September 2008 (so overlapped with LGW for one season).

LHR operated from May 2009 to September 2009.

So I think the story is Cleveland-London operated at least seasonally from 1999 to 2009.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19046
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:54 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 21):
Thanks planeofthepast for posting this, it is a fascinating topic, and answered a question I have had for years. Flying in an out of DFW, I often saw the north end of 17/35 and wondered what it was.

If you follow that runway remnant to the south you'll find it becomes Amon Carter Blvd., and passes AA's headquarters after half a mile or so.
 
neveragain
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:59 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:01 pm

While I'm at it:

In 2000, CLE had nonstop service on CO and affiliates to 90 destinations.

In 2012, this number (on UA and affiliates) had decreased to 65.

Destinations dropped since 2000:

ABE, AUS, AVP, AZO, CAK (there's a surprise!), CHS, CRW, DAB, DAL, DTW, FWA, GSO, HPN, ISP, JFK, LAN, LEX, LGW, MBS, MDW, MEM, MTJ, MYR, OMA, ORF, SAV, SLC, SRQ, TOL, TYS, YHM

Destinations added since 2000:

BFD, DUJ, FKL, GRB, GSP, JHW, PKB

(This list wouldn't include destinations added and dropped between 2000 and 2013, such as CDG.)
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:58 pm

Back around 1972 or so you'd see DL and AA planes practicing touch & go's right across the street if you were standing in the main entrance to AA's training center. In fact there was an accident there. A DL DC9 got caught up in a DC10's wake turbulence and crashed while practicing touch & go's at GSW. It was strange watching a 747 or DC10 doing a touch n' go.

That terminal was an excellent example of the Texas "Bigger & Gaudier is better in Texas." ideology.It truly was a very unique place.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:07 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 36):
Destinations dropped since 2000:

ABE, AUS, AVP, AZO, CAK (there's a surprise!), CHS, CRW, DAB, DAL, DTW, FWA, GSO, HPN, ISP, JFK, LAN, LEX, LGW, MBS, MDW, MEM, MTJ, MYR, OMA, ORF, SAV, SLC, SRQ, TOL, TYS, YHM

SBN was also dropped from CLE earlier this year.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
neveragain
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:59 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 38):
SBN was also dropped from CLE earlier this year.

That they did.

But

Quoting neveragain (Reply 36):
(This list wouldn't include destinations added and dropped between 2000 and 2013, such as CDG.)

Peak nonstop destinations was 98, so there are at least 33 destinations to which service has ended, but there may be more as it is probably the case that not all destinations were served at the same time.

That's more than I would've thought, but many of these destinations are small, nearby destinations. (I am still amused by the CAK service.)
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:45 am

Can't believe no one has mentioned Denver's Stapleton Airport. I think its now the site of an outdoor mall now.
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:44 am

I always liked Stapleton. It's hard to believe it's gone. But it was a rabbit's warren of hallways and different design styles, evidence of additions and remodels over the years.
Is UA's DEN-TK still next to the Stapleton site?
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:49 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 1):
There are more pictures and details on the Abandoned and Little Known Airfields website:

http://members.tripod.com/airfields_...terSW

I noticed that our airline historian Brian Lusk has a few pics. on this site. Very cool. Such a sad thing for an airport terminal to be destroyed in such a way. The hate between Dallas and Ft. Worth was just horrible during this period.

Dallas was trying to be cosmopolitan and Ft. Worth was still trying to be "Cowtown". They just could not get along as two large cities and the taxpayers paid a huge price. Meacham Field, FTW, was even upgraded during this time.

Now we have DFW, DAL, and AFW.
 
User avatar
antoniemey
Posts: 1229
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:32 am

Quoting neveragain (Reply 36):
In 2000, CLE had nonstop service on CO and affiliates to 90 destinations.

In 2012, this number (on UA and affiliates) had decreased to 65.
Quoting neveragain (Reply 36):
(This list wouldn't include destinations added and dropped between 2000 and 2013, such as CDG.)

BNA?

Though, rumor has it that CLE-BNA service will resume in a couple of months.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
neveragain
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:59 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 43):
Though, rumor has it that CLE-BNA service will resume in a couple of months.

You are correct, sir.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 36):
(This list wouldn't include destinations added and dropped between 2000 and 2013, such as CDG.)

The 2013 should be 2012.
 
tharanga
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:29 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 1):
There are more pictures and details on the Abandoned and Little Known Airfields website:

Fascinating read. People actually flew local, DAL-GSW, for a shopping trip. wow.

Quoting eclipseflight7 (Reply 20):
The majority of the airports listed in posts above have no context to the OP's discussion.

I agree with this - this discussion on an interesting case, GSW, is being distracted by conversations about airports which have no similarity to the case at hand. No similarity at all. The troubles of PIT, CLE, CVG and MEM are endlessly discussed in other topics; does it need to be here too?
 
B757Forever
Posts: 674
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 3:23 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:43 pm

Thanks for posting! I grew up in Fort Worth and remember going to a Confederate Air Force air show held at GSW in the late 60's. I recall walking around the B-36 parked out front but never got to go inside. Years later in the late 70's or early 80's after GSW closed, some friends and I got past the poorly maintained fences and drove (at high rates of speed) on the runways. A few years later it was mostly demolished. What a shame.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11862
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 12):
What makes a market "uneconomical"

Not stimulating business growth. That is what produces high yield traffic. The reality is that Pittsburgh is not as business friendly as it once was. If it had been, other airlines would have come in to take the O&D traffic.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 30):
YMX is a monument to human stupidity.

YMX is a monument to how political stupidity can kill a perfectly good hub just when aircraft are available to bypass said hub. Strong hubs have international, regional (or domestic, depends on the country size) and cargo together. The three need each other for a hubbing airline. YMX could have succeeded if there was good ground transportation to the site *and* the prior airport had been closed. DEN proved that. YMX proved split hubs are not as strong as a large central hub.

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 40):
Can't believe no one has mentioned Denver's Stapleton Airport. I think its now the site of an outdoor mall now.

Nothing to mention. It was demolished pretty quickly.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 36):
In 2000, CLE had nonstop service on CO and affiliates to 90 destinations.

In 2012, this number (on UA and affiliates) had decreased to 65.

CLE is a victim of too low O&D to survive as a major hub during a recession.

Hubs work with 30% to 70% connecting traffic. If the connecting traffic is too low, that means the available seats for connections are too low to compete versus other hubs so the spoke customers select another hub as their preference. There is a reason the new DL hub at LGA has a goal of 30% connecting traffic; nothing else works in the long run (with any yield). No hubs survives at above 70% connecting traffic for in recessions competitors discount on the competing routes (for all connecting routes have competition today) and without higher yield O&D, the hub dies off. This is what happened to CLE. During the recession the drop in O&D traffic made the hub vulnerable. The only fix is higher O&D.

Note: One wants some connecting traffic as purely O&D routes are 'brittle.' In that I mean they break with small changes in O&D demand. Ok, massive O&D routes like EWR-JFK aren't brittle, but then again there is a huge amount of connecting traffic on that route (both ways in fact). Now WN works by shuffling aircraft around, but even they have had to do more connecting in the global economic down turn.

ATL has unusually high connecting traffic but survives with business friendly policies that stimulate economic growth (in the long term, not every year obviously). Traffic for business growth is higher yield than traffic for just sustaining business. Note: read the 1776 book "Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith if you want to know more about emerging business versus established business profits, wages, and willingness to spend money on expansion. Nothing has changed in over 200 years in that respect.

For CLE to become a hub again Cleveland must change policies to promote business growth. With that yield will spike and that promotes hub growth. I would love to see CLE be built up to a two runway airport (I've seen some reasonable proposals), but the greater Cleveland economy must grow first.

It is why DEN, with its 30% connecting traffic, is poised for growth. It is an economically growing region with the capacity.


Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
neveragain
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:59 pm

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
Not stimulating business growth. That is what produces high yield traffic. The reality is that Pittsburgh is not as business friendly as it once was. If it had been, other airlines would have come in to take the O&D traffic.

You may have that perception, but it's not really true. If that were the case, I'm sure you would agree the DTW hub would have been shut down. The unemployment rate for the Pittsburgh MSA has been less than that for the nation throughout the recession.

The reality is PIT was overserved as a hub (i.e., high share of connecting traffic). US either had to decide to downsize its operations from a 80% connecting operation to a 50% operation or close it. It chose the latter, probably because it thought a 50% operation wouldn't be profitable in the long-run, either because of the economics of the local station or because growing PHL and CLT was thought to be more profitable.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
CLE is a victim of too low O&D to survive as a major hub during a recession.

It never was a major hub, though. I don't believe CLE's connecting percentage has ever been above 50%.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
Hubs work with 30% to 70% connecting traffic.

This is not a hard-and-fast rule. I'd wager to guess most airlines would tell you a domestic-oriented hub with 70% connecting traffic in most cities would not be profitable. The only hubs for which that is an exception are ATL and CLT.

In fact, besides ATL and CLT, the next highest shares of connecting percentages are in DFW and IAH, which have historically been 55%-60%.

On the other end, there are few hubs with connecting percentages of only 30%, and I bet they're all located in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and New York.

Most U.S. hubs have connecting percentages between 50%-60%.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
No hubs survives at above 70% connecting traffic for in recessions competitors discount on the competing routes (for all connecting routes have competition today) and without higher yield O&D, the hub dies off.

ATL is right at 70%, CLT is at 80%. Tell US Airways CLT isn't profitable, and I'm sure they'd disagree. (Now in the event of an AA merger, I could see this number coming down to 70% of less.)

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
No hubs survives at above 70% connecting traffic for in recessions competitors discount on the competing routes (for all connecting routes have competition today) and without higher yield O&D, the hub dies off. This is what happened to CLE. During the recession the drop in O&D traffic made the hub vulnerable. The only fix is higher O&D.

Nope, CLE's connecting percentage was never close to 70%.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
It is why DEN, with its 30% connecting traffic, is poised for growth. It is an economically growing region with the capacity.

Not true. DEN's connecting percentage is 45%.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
ATL has unusually high connecting traffic but survives with business friendly policies that stimulate economic growth (in the long term, not every year obviously).
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
For CLE to become a hub again Cleveland must change policies to promote business growth.

Gross, gross, politcally-tinged oversimplification.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

RE: Rise And Fall Of An International Airport

Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:43 pm

Lost of talk here of never-heard-of airports of little or no historic relevance or interest. Now for something of real interest, I offer you Berlin Tegel. Once host to the largest freestanding structure in the world, build like an amphitheater and good for 100.000 people to cheer the "Leader" when he came home, it is truly a historic airport.

Due to its location, however, times eventually overtook it and it's now been decommissioned as an airport. But, and this is important, the building is still there. And so are the runways and taxiways, come to think of it, at least for a little while longer. The building ain't going anywhere, but the ground will eventually be converted into a park for the people of Berlin to enjoy.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove