BlueSky1976
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787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:08 pm

Per article in Aviation Week, Boeing sales department got green light to officially offer 787-10X for sale to the airlines and leasing companies:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_11_07_2012_p01-01-514119.xml
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zeke
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:46 pm

from the article

"Sources add that “nobody is using the word offerability at this point,” though the Boeing sales teams are now “allowed” to speak to airlines and present detailed marketing data for a product now deemed ready to move from product development to firm launch. Approval to offer is thought to have been given at the most recent board meeting, believed to have been held late last month."

Still does not look like it is formally being offered. Boeing has been talking to airlines about it for a while, not sure what significance this is, maybe they have locked in some performance guarantees.
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NYC777
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:49 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 1):
Still does not look like it is formally being offered. Boeing has been talking to airlines about it for a while, not sure what significance this is, maybe they have locked in some performance guarantees.

No one said formally being offered. They can't formally offer it to airlines since they don't have final authority from the Boeig Board yet as reported in the article.
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cmf
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
No one said formally being offered.

Look at the title.
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Stitch
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:59 pm

So effectively the 787-10X is now a done deal and the sales team are now empowered to start collecting MoUs / LoIs to support a formal Authority to Offer from the Board.

It's a similar situation to the 747-500X and 747-600X, which were "launched" at Farnborough 1996 (and subsequently secured MoUs from MH and TG) though the Board of Directors had not yet formally granted Authority to Offer (nor never did so once BA backed out).
 
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EPA001
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
So effectively the 787-10X is now a done deal and the sales team are now empowered to start collecting MoUs / LoIs to support a formal Authority to Offer from the Board.

I guess that is a correct assumption. Now we have to wait and see what kind of response the B787-10X will find among the potential customers. I guess she will do quite well since the offering looks to be quite a good one.  .
 
United727
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:06 pm

Do you think that many current airlines awaiting delivery of the -8/-9 will switch orders to the -10?
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:09 pm

There are several airlines (which could include UA) that could change their 787 mix to include the 787-10. For example, the US West Coast to Europe is within the range of this a/c but offers an improved CASM and increased cargo capacity. That should be very attractive for airlines that don't necessarily need an 8,000 nm range aircraft but a lot of lift.
 
reality
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:12 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
No one said formally being offered

The title of this thread is misleading then: "787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines"
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting United727 (Reply 6):
Do you think that many current airlines awaiting delivery of the -8/-9 will switch orders to the -10?

I don't expect to see major order conversions, but for those carriers who were planning to use the plane regionally, if their traffic patterns can handle the extra capacity, we could see some conversions.
 
United727
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
for those carriers who were planning to use the plane regionally, if their traffic patterns can handle the extra capacity, we could see some conversions.

So, technically, as for capacity, the -10 could be a regularly used Domestic player here in the US then??
 
phxa340
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting United727 (Reply 10):
So, technically, as for capacity, the -10 could be a regularly used Domestic player here in the US then??

I think Stitch was referring to Asian Regional players like CX and SQ.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting United727 (Reply 10):
So, technically, as for capacity, the -10 could be a regularly used Domestic player here in the US then??
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 11):
I think Stitch was referring to Asian Regional players like CX and SQ.

Yes I was, but the 787-10 would also work well for Hawaii services for UA (replacing the 777-200s).
 
mogandoCI
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Yes I was, but the 787-10 would also work well for Hawaii services for UA (replacing the 777-200s).

The 787-10 can also be excellent for short but high-demand EastCoast to Western Europe runs.
 
astuteman
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
No one said formally being offered

Think this has been covered....  
Quoting United727 (Reply 6):
Do you think that many current airlines awaiting delivery of the -8/-9 will switch orders to the -10?

I guess much will depend on the EIS that is being proposed..

Rgds
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:02 pm

I'm probably wrong, but I'm wondering if the 787-10 is going to be more like the 764 in terms of sales. I hope I'm wrong.
 
delimit
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 15):
I'm probably wrong, but I'm wondering if the 787-10 is going to be more like the 764 in terms of sales. I hope I'm wrong.

Seriously doubt that. Probably much closer to the A333. It moves a lot of people very efficiently at enough range that it can be used on major trunk routes.

I think it should sell quite well.  
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:14 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 15):
I'm probably wrong, but I'm wondering if the 787-10 is going to be more like the 764 in terms of sales. I hope I'm wrong.

I'm very confident in predicting you will be wrong.  
 
phxa340
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 15):
I'm probably wrong, but I'm wondering if the 787-10 is going to be more like the 764 in terms of sales. I hope I'm wrong

Considering the 764 is not even close to the same aircraft the 787-10 is in , I think you will be wrong  

764 - 245 Seats
7810 - 323 Seats

764 - 5,625nm
7810 - 6,900nm
 
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zeke
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
So effectively the 787-10X is now a done deal and the sales team are now empowered to start collecting MoUs / LoIs to support a formal Authority to Offer from the Board

I believe you have stated numerous times in the past in particular with a number of airshow announcements that Boeing does not collect MoUs / LoIs without customers putting money down.

How does a customer put money down on a product that is not offered for sale ?

Seems like a catch 22 to me.
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Stitch
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
I believe you have stated numerous times in the past in particular with a number of airshow announcements that Boeing does not collect MoUs / LoIs without customers putting money down.

In those instances I was referring to Commitments. Boeing have stated that a Commitment (such as for the 737 MAX) does require a deposit.

Boeing may or may not require a payment with an MoU or an LoI and this policy might depend on whether or not an airplane program has received formal Authority to Offer. When AA stated their intent to buy a re-engined 737, the Board of Directors had not yet given ATO to the 737 MAX. Same when MH and TG agreed to purchase the 747-500X and 747-600X back in 1996.
 
CM
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:14 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
How does a customer put money down on a product that is not offered for sale ?

By signing the MOU, getting out their checkbook and handing over some money. The same thing happened on the 737 MAX for nearly a year before Boeing's internal PD process caught up and permitted proper guarantees and actual firm orders (see link below). Some airlines even placed firm orders for the MAX before it was offerable (AA). They did this by signing for an existing airplane (the 737NG), but with substitution rights to a planned future derivative. People always believe there are set rules with concrete barriers in these processes. There aren't. If two entities want to make a deal, they will find a way to get it done (with lots of lawyers, of course).

http://www.aviationbrief.com/?p=4492
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:14 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 15):
I'm probably wrong, but I'm wondering if the 787-10 is going to be more like the 764 in terms of sales. I hope I'm wrong.

The 767-400 was underpowered to begin with and then 9/11 happened. Terminal at that point.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:23 pm

A quibble about some of the detail in Guy Norris' report...

quote...the 320-seater is expected to be a 6,700- to 6,750-nm-range aircraft with a maximum takeoff weight of about 551,750 lb., just under 7,000 lb. more than the 787-9 stretch now in initial assembly.... finish of quote.

Boeing show the 789 at 553000# MTOW so is there a reduction of MTOW in the works for the 789 or does Mr Norris have his facts wrong?
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 23):
Boeing show the 789 at 553000# MTOW so is there a reduction of MTOW in the works for the 789 or does Mr Norris have his facts wrong?

He appears to be using the older (2009-2011) 544,000 lb / 247,000 kg MTOW.

The 787-9 and 787-10 should have identical MTOWs of 553,000 lb / 251,000 kg.
 
Slcpilot
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 15):
I'm probably wrong, but I'm wondering if the 787-10 is going to be more like the 764 in terms of sales. I hope I'm wrong.


Hey B, everybody seems to think you're wrong, including me. It will be an offering that completes a family of aircraft, built at the start of a program, rather than an "add-on" towards the end of a program for two customers. Larger aircraft in families have typically (but not always as you point out) done well.

Cheers! P
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cosmofly
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:43 pm

Article assumes EIS 2018-2019.

Both A359 and 789 EIS are targeting 2014. A351 targets EIS 2017. Could B also achieve -10 EIS 2017? Technically speaking, 787 systems are much more mature which can compensate for later launch date.

Immediate pressure on B's engineering may be significantly higher than A's, with more complex MAX work, tanker, and possibly 77X while A only has NEO. It is understandable why 77X may be pushed back.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 26):
Immediate pressure on B's engineering may be significantly higher than A's,

they have a team working on the 789 which must be close to complete engineeringwise . It seems to me it would be smart to keep them in place and move onto the 787-10
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:30 pm

I expect production capacity will be the real determiner of EIS.
 
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zeke
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 26):

Both A359 and 789 EIS are targeting 2014.

That is amazing considering how far apart they were launched. Will the 789 be able to launch in 2014 given they are so far behind with the 788, or will they let their customers down ?

Cannot have it both ways ......
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MCIGuy
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 26):
and possibly 77X while A only has NEO. It is understandable why 77X may be pushed back.

IMO, and this is just opinion, this effectively kills the 777X and I think B will move on to a new "bigger twin" with a 2023-2025 EIS.
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CM
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 29):

All major structural sections for the first 787-9 are already manufactured and in pre-integration. There's no question the airplane is proceeding on the current timetable, regardless of 787-8 backlog. It's one advantage of having 3 independent FALs for the program.
 
dc1030cf
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:30 pm

I sense someone from the former British Colony may have a grudge or negative feelings towards the 787's maker. If this is indeed the case, please by all means, let's hear them and we can all discuss them. Unlike the Agency that shall not be named from the country that shall not be named, we are civilized and we are here to help for the love of aviation.
 
sweair
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:03 pm

Endless love of Boeing from some posters  
 
RickNRoll
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 30):
IMO, and this is just opinion, this effectively kills the 777X and I think B will move on to a new "bigger twin" with a 2023-2025 EIS.

This half an authority ot offer partly appears to be a fishing expedition. The 777X/NEO/HGW version probably depends on how much interest is shown in the -10. The more popular the -10, the less investment in the 777X. The -10 will go ahead either way.
 
Aither
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:50 pm

"A330 killer"... 25 years later hopefully this is achievable...

The 787-8 & 9 were too small. They finally realized not so many routes were really truly "point to point" routes. We can expect a lot of airlines will switch from the -8 & 9 to the -10.
Never trust the obvious
 
thegeek
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:35 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
The 787-9 and 787-10 should have identical MTOWs of 553,000 lb / 251,000 kg.

What? Range for payload. Knock me over with a feather.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 15):
I'm probably wrong, but I'm wondering if the 787-10 is going to be more like the 764 in terms of sales. I hope I'm wrong.

Add 753, A333 vs A332 for most of the time they were concurrently offered.

I wonder if this is a fishing expedition to see if there is any market for this idea. And if there isn't, they can focus on the 777X.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:54 am

Well Boeing previously stretched the 767 to create the 767-300A, before the definitive 767-300ER came a few years later.

Then they stretched the 777-200ER to create the basic stretch 777-300 A model, before several years later producing the best selling 777-300ER.

Will Boeing produce a 787-10ER variant at some point (maybe with larger wings etc) if the 777X doesn't take off?
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sunrisevalley
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:24 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 43):
What? Range for payload. Knock me over with a feather.

about 35t for a 5850nmESAD/ 12hr sector assuming a 136t DOW.
 
ikramerica
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:15 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 42):
"A330 killer"... 25 years later hopefully this is achievable...

No kidding. But the A333 is much improved over the years. Most aircraft sold now are A330 killers if you are talking about the first A330s. But some airlines are replacing those A330s with much improved... A330s.  
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 42):
The 787-8 & 9 were too small.

The original 7E7 proposals were indeed sized around the 767-300ER and 767-400ER, however discussions with customers grew them to their current size, which is around the A330-200/A340-200 and A330-300/A340-300/777-200ER.

And considering how well the A330 and 777 sold, I wouldn't exactly call them "too small".  
 
YLWbased
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:55 am

Quoting dc1030cf (Reply 36):

I sense someone from the former British Colony may have a grudge or negative feelings towards the 787's maker. If this is indeed the case, please by all means, let's hear them and we can all discuss them. Unlike the Agency that shall not be named from the country that shall not be named, we are civilized and we are here to help for the love of aviation.

I'd have the person you have describe "blocked and black-listed" should such feature is available on a.net.

Back to the topic, it is great news that 787-10 is finally getting some lights and I do hope that one day it'll make it to the sky. Just out of curiosity, how many airlines had publicly show their interest in the 787-10?

YLWbased
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CXB77L
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:21 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 41):
The more popular the -10, the less investment in the 777X

In the sense that the base 777-8X won't be required, leaving only a family of 2 comprising of the ultra long range -8LX and the -9X, I agree.

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 49):
it is great news that 787-10 is finally getting some lights and I do hope that one day it'll make it to the sky.

  

I'm sure it will. The 787-10 is likely to be a fantastic medium hauler, occupying the space that the A333 currently does.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:28 am

I could see DL converting the B-788 order (for the post 2020 time frame) to the B-7810X. Possibly increasing the order (from 8?). By the 2020 time frame, their B-763s and B-764s will be ready for retirement/replacement.
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:27 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 37):
Will Boeing produce a 787-10ER variant at some point (maybe with larger wings etc) if the 777X doesn't take off?

You understand the history correctly IMO. And to apply these principles to the future is only common sense. So your prediction will become reality with a high probability. Regardless whether the 777X will take off or not.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 35):
The 787-8 & 9 were too small.

Yes, that's why they have sold over 800 of them in less than a decade.  

Not every airplane out there is a 777 or A330.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 34):
This half an authority ot offer partly appears to be a fishing expedition. The 777X/NEO/HGW version probably depends on how much interest is shown in the -10. The more popular the -10, the less investment in the 777X. The -10 will go ahead either way.

Exactly, but I think the -10 will do well, as you said, diminishing the case for the 777X.
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
klkla
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 43):
I could see DL converting the B-788 order (for the post 2020 time frame) to the B-7810X. Possibly increasing the order (from 8?). By the 2020 time frame, their B-763s and B-764s will be ready for retirement/replacement.

The current order is 18 not 8.

I also think AA is a very likely candidate for 787-10. ORD/JFK-LHR and MIA/JFK-Brazil and Argentina are examples where this aircraft would be perfect in their network.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:19 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 46):
Exactly, but I think the -10 will do well, as you said, diminishing the case for the 777X.

The 777 fuse cross section will always be an advantage over the 787. What the 777x does, is diminish the business case for the 748i.
What the...?
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: 787-10X Formally Offered To Airlines

Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:58 am

Quoting klkla (Reply 47):
also think AA is a very likely candidate for 787-10. ORD/JFK-LHR and MIA/JFK-Brazil and Argentina are examples where this aircraft would be perfect in their network

The South American routes are around about 10.5hrs northbound . The 787-10 would be good for about 46t payload Probably similar to the 77E but with a 20% less fuel burn. Would work well in asparagus season.

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