loveofflying
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Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:44 am

Hey all,

I was wondering why there aren't any gulf carriers (QR, EK, EY, etc.) in TPE? Seems like the "last frontier" in developed Asia...

Any chance of service in the near future?

(I'm asking a bit selfishly as I'm planning a trip in 2013...  )

Cheers!

loveofflying
Fly the DC10 before you can't!
 
LAXintl
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:06 am

I'd say probably the same reason many others dont/cant serve ROC either. Bilateral issues and political recognition.

However EK does operate freighters to TPE.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
loveofflying
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:17 am

Hmmm... I think many others don't serve TPE in part because of the bilateral problems... but also because it's low-yield. But EK et al thrive on markets where they have little competition... So I'm very surprised they're not there yet!
Fly the DC10 before you can't!
 
qf340500
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:43 am

so why you don't fly legacy carries, why are you keen on Gulf carriers? They are everywhere and they are in everyones face, its not funny. I enjoy seeing an airport where NO Gulf carrier flies.... hard to find nowadays!
 
cityairline
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:34 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 3):
so why you don't fly legacy carries, why are you keen on Gulf carriers?

Last time I checked, the Gulf carriers were legacy ones...

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 3):
They are everywhere and they are in everyones face, its not funny. I enjoy seeing an airport where NO Gulf carrier flies.... hard to find nowadays!

Okay?
What's not funny? It's the same with other big players. They're also everywhere. Seeing EK/EY/QR is, and will be even more, inevitable just as seeing LH/KL/BA and the likes.
I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
 
Joost
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:48 am

Quoting CityAirline (Reply 4):
Last time I checked, the Gulf carriers were legacy ones...

Etihad was only founded in 2003, there isn't much legacy one can create in 9 years. QR in it's current shape has it's origins between 1997 and 2002 (when the Qatar government abandoned GF).

'Legacy Carrier' doesn't necessarily equal 'Full service carrier' or 'Network carrier'.

Legacy refers to all links to the past that can be traced back for the carrier.

One could even argue if WN is already a legacy carrier nowadays.
 
justinlee
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:56 am

Firstly, the political issue is not a problem after 2008 after the aviation agreement between Mainland China and Taiwan.

Secondly, the long-haul international market for TPE is relatively small. Most of the business activities of Taiwan happen in the Asia-Pacific region. While the advantage of Gulf Carriers is Europe-Asia routes, TPE only has 2xweekly to FCO, 5xweekly to FRA, 2xweekly to VIE, 1xdaily to AMS (direct service). Not quite a big market!

Thirdly, people in Taiwan tend to use HKG as their most favorable international hub. And CX is far better than CI or BR.
 
777way
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:04 pm

Taiwan carriers have served Gulf region in the past though, China Airlines did Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Dhahran and Jeddah, EVA Air did passenger and cargo flights to Dubai and Mandrin Airlines did Abu Dhabi.

Currently China Airlines Cargo are serving Abu Dhabi.

from the Gulf Saudia Cargo operated freighters to TPE from the 80s to 2003.

[Edited 2012-11-08 04:06:42]
 
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Qatara340
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting joost (Reply 5):
'Legacy Carrier' doesn't necessarily equal 'Full service carrier' or 'Network carrier'.

Yes it does.

Quoting joost (Reply 5):
Legacy refers to all links to the past that can be traced back for the carrier.

QR, EK, EY ARE legacy carriers.

Quoting joost (Reply 5):
One could even argue if WN is already a legacy carrier nowadays.

No way.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
leftyboarder
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:46 pm

About the "legacy carrier" neither side is entirely incorrect, as the term itself actually first applied to US carriers only that had a significant country-wide presence at the time of deregulation. It later came to symbolize "incumbent carriers", not unlike telecom industry where the government-owned monopolies were once legacies and new entrants had to compete with them to gain market share.

About TPE, I'd say the market is not as big as some would assume, with the entire country around 23m people - compare that to China (where EK has flights to 3 points only).
 
KFlyer
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:56 pm

Well, I think the real denominator of what airline can be considered legacy or what not - is there cost and practices. Even if you're an airline that is just one year old, but is run by a team who believe in legacy practices and expect legacy privileges - then yes you're a legacy carrier.
The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
 
flyingfool
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting justinlee (Reply 6):
1xdaily to AMS (direct service). Not quite a big market!

AMS sees currently 15 weekly flights to TPE operated by KL (7x), CI (5x) and BR (3x)
 
leftyboarder
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:26 pm

Never got the point of VIE flights by CI, OS is *A. Is there a big market to VIE from TPE?

[Edited 2012-11-08 06:27:31]
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:35 pm

If there were real demand, a Taiwanese carrier could do a set of code-shares with a mid-east carrier. CX would be a tough airline to compete with on the Diamond route.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
I'd say probably the same reason many others dont/cant serve ROC either.

Rochester New York?!?  
Quoting 777way (Reply 7):
Taiwan carriers have served Gulf region in the past though, China Airlines did Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Dhahran and Jeddah, EVA Air did passenger and cargo flights to Dubai and Mandrin Airlines did Abu Dhabi.

If there was demand, we would see that again.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 8):
QR, EK, EY ARE legacy carriers.

By what definition? They do not have many of the procedures and policies of a true Legacy carrier. EK's aircraft utilization tends to be higher than a 'Legacy' carrier. There are marked differences between how some of the mid-east airlines run and a Legacy carrier (e.g., aircraft down time).

As noted, both sides could be technically correct. However, the mid-east carriers should be discussed separately as they are far more nimble than most 'Legacy airlines.'

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 8):
Quoting joost (Reply 5):
One could even argue if WN is already a legacy carrier nowadays.

No way.

By US definitition, since WN was flying during regulation, it is considered a Legacy.

Lightsaber
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qf002
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:17 pm

It's only a matter of time... Asia is a big place, and carriers that rely so heavily on through traffic can only expand one part of their network as quickly as they can expand others to avoid capacity issues. So they've had to prioritise growth in Asia to the biggest/most important cities before they can start to move on to covering the smaller ones.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 8):
QR, EK, EY ARE legacy carriers.

No. While there are plenty of definitions out there, legacy carriers are recognised as having significant history behind them. They predate the modern industry, whereas these three carriers (EY and QR particularly) are a product of the modern industry.

These carriers are much the same airline today as they were when they were born (aside from obvious growth, and I grant that EK has changed pretty significantly). Compare that to the US majors, BA, QF, KL, SQ etc which have radically changed and developed over the period of close to a century in a couple of cases, and you'll see the distinction...
 
Tommy525
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:35 pm

First post on airliners.net since joining today. Many years lurking.

I would say that the Taiwan to/from Europe traffic is not big enough for Gulf carriers to target at this stage. They are going after bigger fish.
 
justinlee
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting flyingfool (Reply 11):
AMS sees currently 15 weekly flights to TPE operated by KL (7x), CI (5x) and BR (3x)

I mean non-stop. Actually both CI and BR use BKK a stopover for their european routes, which is kind of weird. If I want to go TPE-LHR for example, what's the point to take an non-allaince carrier (before they join the alliance) and stop at BKK? And I can suspect there are not so many people flying the BKK-CDG leg. CX or KE does a better job with one stop.
 
StevenG
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 12):
Never got the point of VIE flights by CI, OS is *A. Is there a big market to VIE from TPE?

There is a (big) Taiwanese community in Austria, at least in Vienna.
In the 80's and early 90's KLM even used to fly AMS-VIE-TPE with a stop in the Gulf area.

Steven
 
777way
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:46 pm

China Airlines did TPE-AUH-VIE from 2006 till they pulled out from Abu Dhabi around 2008, have they quit Vienna too?
 
Tommy525
Posts: 109
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:24 pm

China Airlines is flying NonStop from Vienna to/from TPE with Airbus 340

http://info.flightmapper.net/flight/China_Airlines_CI_64
 
Rara
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:25 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 14):
They predate the modern industry

That's the key. If you were there when flying was still for the select few and highly regulated, you're a legacy carrier.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:29 am

Quoting flyingfool (Reply 11):
AMS sees currently 15 weekly flights to TPE operated by KL (7x), CI (5x) and BR (3x)

Yes, but CI and BR are via BKK. In general 3/4 of all pax who embark in AMS are disembarking in BKK.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
celestar
Posts: 498
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:35 am

Quoting justinlee (Reply 16):
Quoting justinlee (Reply 16):
I mean non-stop. Actually both CI and BR use BKK a stopover for their european routes, which is kind of weird. If I want to go TPE-LHR for example, what's the point to take an non-allaince carrier (before they join the alliance) and stop at BKK? And I can suspect there are not so many people flying the BKK-CDG leg. CX or KE does a better job with one stop.

Dear Justinelee, you probably was never on one of these CI or BR flight from Taipei to Europe via Bangkok. I happen to travel very often on this route and I can tell you the sector from BKK to AMS or other European destination is a high yield route. Many Europeans travelled to BKK for leisure and for retirement. I was sitting next to a Dutch taxi driver who are going to get married (again?) at 55 years old on my recent BR flight from AMS to BKK.
Yes, the stop over at BKK is not very nice, especially on the outbound flight from TPE, since it leaves late in the evening and you are just about to fall asleep when the plane commences decent, however, on the return part, it is actually a nice way to stretch your leg with that stop at BKK.
BR is the only carrier, if I remember correctly, fles direct from TPE to Paris but that is not a regular daily flight.
 
loveofflying
Topic Author
Posts: 112
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RE: Why No Gulf Carriers In TPE?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:58 am

The reason is that the flights TPE-AMS or vv. in J are quite expensive! Not cheap at all... And that for slanted business class... Boooooo....
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