avi8
Topic Author
Posts: 873
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:36 am

Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:46 pm

I apologize if thishas been discussed before, but I was wondering that, given that SWA has more than 100 of the 300's, why are they not getting WiFi? I know they have plans to eliminate them from the fleet, but replacing the entire sub-fleet will take time; so why not install wifi on newest 300's?


BTW: I would like to congratulate all those who work on SWA, it has become by far my favorite airline. Flew them for the first time today! Service was awesome, the plane was clean and I really liked the new interiors. I don't know why people complain about them. I am definitely flying them whenever I can.
avi8

Medschool student
 
Raventech
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:25 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:53 pm

They will probably be retired before any kind of ROI will be seen, same thing for only retrofitting only 90 300s aircrafts with winglets and none of the 500s, they will be gone before SWA will get there investment back.
 
Turkish350XWB
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:23 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:57 pm

When those aircraft were build, electricity was not invented yet. No electricity on board --> no WiFi
 
mffoda
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:09 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):
why are they not getting WiFi?

Because they are analog not digital...    
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:16 am

No certification for the Radome. I wish I could find the info. that we were given, but there were some problems with buffeting/installation on the Classic. Plus as said above, the recoup of costs of installation/certification for aircraft that are going to be retired (and are being retired) just isn't feasible.
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 1793
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:16 am

Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):
BTW: I would like to congratulate all those who work on SWA, it has become by far my favorite airline. Flew them for the first time today! Service was awesome, the plane was clean and I really liked the new interiors. I don't know why people complain about them. I am definitely flying them whenever I can.

What routing did you fly them?
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
chrisair
Posts: 1778
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):
I don't know why people complain about them.

How tall are you?
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5035
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:33 am

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 2):
When those aircraft were build, electricity was not invented yet. No electricity on board --> no WiFi

Yet the DC-9's at DL have it.
 
southwest737500
Posts: 611
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:49 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 7):

Well if delta wanted to invest the money they can obviously WN isn't. I guess delta thought it was neccsearry
Next flight: TUL-ATL-CLT CRJ900 and MD88
 
aklrno
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:18 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:39 am

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 2):

When those aircraft were build, electricity was not invented yet. No electricity on board --> no WiFi


I''ll miss those kerosene reading lamps in the overhead PSU.
 
airliner371
Posts: 2062
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:53 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:53 am

By the way, not to hijack the thread or anything but today Global Eagle Acquisition Corp announced they were acquiring Row 44.

http://row44.com/news-post/global-ea...transaction-valued-at-approximate/

Quoting chrisair (Reply 6):
How tall are you?

Its now the same as other airlines, people are complaining for no reason.
 
avi8
Topic Author
Posts: 873
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:36 am

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:31 am

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 5):

I flew BOS-MDW-HOU. It was awesome.

A bit out of topic, but does SWA bank flights at MDW? I know they don't operate hubs but I saw 26 aircraft parked at the gates and 3 (mine included) headed towards the runway.
avi8

Medschool student
 
IMissPiedmont
Posts: 6200
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 12:58 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:55 am

At the rate the -300s and -500s are appearing here in Tucson to be scrapped I'd be surprised if many will ever even undergo heavy maintainance.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
airliner371
Posts: 2062
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:53 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting avi8 (Reply 11):
A bit out of topic, but does SWA bank flights at MDW?

SWA does not bank flights at all. Your looking at a big operation, 3 flights leaving at once is to be expected.
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
Posts: 4458
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting avi8 (Reply 11):
A bit out of topic, but does SWA bank flights at MDW? I know they don't operate hubs but I saw 26 aircraft parked at the gates and 3 (mine included) headed towards the runway.
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 13):
SWA does not bank flights at all. Your looking at a big operation, 3 flights leaving at once is to be expected.

SWA absolutely banks flights at it's large connecting cities. I don't care what anyone says, WN now operates hubs and more so with every new flight schedule. I can speak for SAN especially where we have periods of the day where every gate files in one by one in minutes and other periods where there is little to nothing going on. Over the summer during the 10am hour we had 13 schedules departures (we only have 11 gates) and then later during the 12 noon hour we had 3 scheduled flights.

[Edited 2012-11-08 18:21:43]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
airliner371
Posts: 2062
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:53 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:58 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 14):
SWA absolutely banks flights at it's large connecting cities. I don't care what anyone says, WN now operates hubs and more so with every new flight schedule.

I agree completely that SWA has hubs. Those hubs (which we are talking about) are not banked hubs however. Now whether SAN is banked is a separate question but we were talking hubs/focus cities or what ever you want to call them.
 
countrymalenc
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:35 am

You can call it what you want but at the larger SWA cities. Lots of connections are made available some as short as 25 min, others much longer. I believe the term is called ICO Inner connect opportunities. Probably one of the reasons many of the flights from east coast come to BNA, STL, DEN and HOU.
 
SXDFC
Posts: 1663
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:53 am

Although the -300s are not getting wifi, I have heard that the 90 -300s with winglets will also be the same ones getting the new "Evolve" interior..
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
User avatar
zippyjet
Posts: 5089
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:15 am

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 7):

DL has seperation anxiety with those vintage 9's. This was a trait that merged into them with NW. If most of the world ended and NW was still a stand alone carrier, the only survivors would be cockroaches and those DC-9's.   
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11833
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting aklrno (Reply 9):

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 2):

When those aircraft were build, electricity was not invented yet. No electricity on board --> no WiFi


I''ll miss those kerosene reading lamps in the overhead PSU.

I miss the evacuation cards on scrolls.  
Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 12):
At the rate the -300s and -500s are appearing here in Tucson to be scrapped I'd be surprised if many will ever even undergo heavy maintainance.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if WN went on a plan to stop heavy maintenance on any non-wingleted 737 and scrap them when the time comes.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 18):
If most of the world ended and NW was still a stand alone carrier, the only survivors would be cockroaches and those DC-9's.

   MadMax with T-tails...

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Alnicocunife
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:32 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:02 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 7):
Yet the DC-9's at DL have it.
Quoting aklrno (Reply 9):
I''ll miss those kerosene reading lamps in the overhead PSU.

DC-9's were refitted with LED lights to eleminate the kerosene reading lamps and to free up electrons for wifi and seat power.

[Edited 2012-11-09 13:11:53]
 
cschleic
Posts: 1227
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 18):
If most of the world ended and NW was still a stand alone carrier, the only survivors would be cockroaches and those DC-9's.

Those 9's were built to last!
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 2768
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):
it has become by far my favorite airline. Flew them for the first time today!

Wow. You my friend are easily swayed... That's like going on one date with someone and saying you'd marry them.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 15):
hose hubs (which we are talking about) are not banked hubs however

They are banked, look at the schedules.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:36 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 2):

When those aircraft were build, electricity was not invented yet. No electricity on board --> no WiFi


Wrong! You can still put wifi equipment on any 733 regardless of age. One poster says DL's DC9's has the wifi, yet it's older than the 733's.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1535
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:29 am

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:05 pm

Some of the -300's without winglets are leased so they'll be going back to the lessor
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
Posts: 4458
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 2):

When those aircraft were build, electricity was not invented yet. No electricity on board --> no WiFi


Wrong! You can still put wifi equipment on any 733 regardless of age. One poster says DL's DC9's has the wifi, yet it's older than the 733's.


But electricity wasn't invented yet!!  

           

[Edited 2012-11-09 14:29:34]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
JHCRJ700
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:51 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:34 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 18):
DL has seperation anxiety with those vintage 9's. This was a trait that merged into them with NW. If most of the world ended and NW was still a stand alone carrier, the only survivors would be cockroaches and those DC-9's.   

It'll be a sad day when the last one is retired. Fortunately the 9's will out live all of us and we won't have to see it!   
RUSH
 
chrisair
Posts: 1778
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):
Wrong! You can still put wifi equipment on any 733 regardless of age. One poster says DL's DC9's has the wifi, yet it's older than the 733's.

Do you understand sarcasm...?  
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:19 am

Quoting chrisair (Reply 27):
Do you understand sarcasm...?

There was not one of these at the end of said post -------->   

So, thats why I responded the way I did.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19769
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:06 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 9):
I''ll miss those kerosene reading lamps in the overhead PSU.

They upgraded to kerosene? How lovely. The last time I flew on one of their -300's, the tallow from the torches kept dripping on my trousers. Left unsightly burn stains.  

Where does the unit on the WN birds go? Same place as GoGo's under the fuselage, or does it go on top?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:22 am

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 17):
Although the -300s are not getting wifi, I have heard that the 90 -300s with winglets will also be the same ones getting the new "Evolve" interior..




This is absolutely true. The Evolve interior takes one night to accomplish and does not require much in the way of certification. Basically weigh a few of the aircraft once the mod. is complete and voila, a new interior. The WiFi is much more complicated, I was involved in the initial wiring certifications on this with the NG and it was no cake walk.

Another thing to keep in mind, the wiring would be completely different. Such as IRS/ADIRU, power to the system itself would require a complete redesign, weight off/on wheels/10,000 ft. callout for activation. It's not just a matter of installing a piece of electronics in your car. Remember the Classic is almost completely analog. Remember just changing from one type of coffee maker to another can require a DER to investigate, inspect and certify. AFAIK, there are no other operators using Row44 on the Classic. If that is the case then WN would foot the majority of certification costs. It is just not worth it IMO and WN's opinion, as I understand it.

Hopefully, they will replace the kerosene lanterns on the classics. 
 
chrisair
Posts: 1778
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:25 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
There was not one of these at the end of said post -------->   

So, thats why I responded the way I did.

Really? Do you think electricity was invented after 1980 or something?  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Same place as GoGo's under the fuselage, or does it go on top?

Top. Gogo is mounted in an unused antenna bay, I believe.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19769
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:54 am

Quoting chrisair (Reply 31):
Really? Do you think electricity was invented after 1980 or something?  

Electricity was invented on October 27, 1992. Just in time for Boeing to install it into the first 73G's.   

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 30):
AFAIK, there are no other operators using Row44 on the Classic. If that is the case then WN would foot the majority of certification costs.

Why would Delta consider it worth it to do all this on the DC-9?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:25 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Why would Delta consider it worth it to do all this on the DC-9?




I will speak/write a little out of old knowledge. I don't know what system DL uses on the DC9/MD80/??

I do know that the 737 and DC9 are completely different critters. Not even close to being the same engineering. I think you probably understand but the structural differences in the two are considerable. I have worked many McD products and the differences are enormous. Have you ever heard of a external skin crack on a McD? I haven't, but sure have on the Classic 737. I think the the McD product is probably much easier to install a external ant./radome doubler and move on.

Plus maybe the wiring would be easier with the engines on the tail??? Staying away from fuel quantity and fuel shutoff wiring?? I just don't really know, that's just a guess. By spec. you have to maintain a set distance between the fuel qty. wiring and firewall shutoff wiring to be approved for any "after mods".

As I say, that is just a guess, slightly educated, but still a guess.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:37 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Where does the unit on the WN birds go? Same place as GoGo's under the fuselage, or does it go on top?

Gogo goes on belly antennas. Row-44 use topside satellite antennas.
The wi-fi doesn't care what plane it goes on... as long as it can have adequate DC power (or on older systems, AC).
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
chrisair
Posts: 1778
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:39 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Electricity was invented on October 27, 1992. Just in time for Boeing to install it into the first 73G's.

Ah yes. How could I forget. Boeing also invented plumbing and running water on Dec. 8, 1989.  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Why would Delta consider it worth it to do all this on the DC-9?

Perhaps they piggybacked on the STC for the MD-8x installation? Either way, Gogo and Row 44 are completely different animals. Supposedly Gogo can be installed on an overnight stop, whereas Row 44 requires a lot more work. So I hear, this is why Alaska (sadly) opted for the Gogo system.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19769
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:58 am

Quoting chrisair (Reply 35):
Boeing also invented plumbing and running water on Dec. 8, 1989.

Actually, that was Airbus. They installed it on the A320, thus developing the -200 variant.  

Up until then, passengers on airliners had to... Well, let's just say it wasn't pleasant.  covereyes 

[Edited 2012-11-09 23:59:21]
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:08 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 34):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Where does the unit on the WN birds go? Same place as GoGo's under the fuselage, or does it go on top?


It is a satellite tracking unit on the top of the aircraft.



Gogo goes on belly antennas. Row-44 use topside satellite antennas.
The wi-fi doesn't care what plane it goes on... as long as it can have adequate DC power (or on older systems, AC).




Wow, that is not true in the least little bit. The Row44 system has to be able to track/follow satellites, so it has to know exactly where it is in space. The older IRU systems can not necessarily maintain that lock. The avionics of the Classic 737 v the NG are decades apart. Unless you are just speaking of the Gogo system. That system is no different then the cell service you used 20 years ago onboard. Faster of course but the same basic system.

If you are planning on over water operations, I don't think that makes alot of sense.

For all of you airline gurus, what systems does the WiFi system go through. Everybody seems to make it so simple. Can it work below 10,000', if not/or so what makes it so. Can it work on the ground? If not/or so what makes it so.

Bottom line it does not work well on the Classic 737, the doublers required, the enginering required, the money required. It Just isn't worth it. You wouldn't install $2000 worth of wheels on a $1000 car to get more money out of it....
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:24 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 37):
Wow, that is not true in the least little bit.

Not true in the least little bit?
Hello, it is an antena ontop!
Row44 on WN uses the Ku-Stream/QEST low-profile Ku-Band Antennas. It has to be put on the top side of the fuselage.

Gogo, is a CDMA antenna at the lower part of the fuselage that goes down to ground base stations.
If you think that's not true... I dunno what is then...

The Ku-band antennas does not have to take in position from the avionics if "it is too unreliable". Independent GPS antennas, and even a mini "Satellite Referece Unit" (pitch, roll, compass, GPS position) can be installed to provide the position and attitude reference to the Beam Control Unit... but, WN's choice, is its choice... besides, it'll just means more STC work!   

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 37):
For all of you airline gurus, what systems does the WiFi system go through. Everybody seems to make it so simple. Can it work below 10,000', if not/or so what makes it so. Can it work on the ground? If not/or so what makes it so.

Depending on which system you use, it CAN be as simple as people say it is, or it can be extremely complex. Just depends on the WiFi access point vendors, onboard LAN cables & network... get the STC, and operational approval... (yes, it sounds a lot easier like this than in reality... no one's trying to fool anyone here).

Can it work below 10,000ft, yes... regulators don't allow it, so, autoshutoff switch is available in some system. Can it work on the ground? The WiFi? Yes... but again, regulators...
On the ground? Put a TWLU on the planes...

But, yes, it is an economic issue... If the Row44 system is worth more than the market value of the aircraft... well, no one's going to get it, even if it's on a new aircraft. I sell satcom / IFEC stuff cheaper than the Row44/Ku system... and airlines will always complain that whatever you bring to them, "it's too expensive".
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:42 am

Let's just put it this way,.

There is no way to install Row44 on the Classic. This is not necessarily true but the cost is far beyond the financial viability of the installation. Maybe a tweak on the radome, maybe a little massage of the structure. Really? Not going to happen. I don't know what else to say. I gave the reasons so I am out.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?

Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:47 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 39):
This is not necessarily true but the cost is far beyond the financial viability of the installation.

This is simply, and rightly, the reason!

And, yes, manufacturers of competing systems also said, "737 Classics? Get a SRU for the antenna otherwise the system will just be dead weight!"
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 666wizard, 767333ER, admanager, Aircellist, alggag, Bing [Bot], Boeing778X, BreninTW, FLJ, Google Adsense [Bot], jmmadrid, Lindegaard, panam330, Qatara340, qfvhoqa, QuarkFly, SCQ83, shengzhurou, xiaotung, zrs70 and 259 guests