jetfuel
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New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:39 am

AN ambitious plan to build a fourth and fifth runway at Sydney Airport on reclaimed land in Botany Bay has won the backing of state Treasurer Mike Baird.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...ydney/story-fndo28a5-1226514736234
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:51 am

Build the airport like what they did in Hong Kong and Kansi, build it on reclaim land in the middle of Botany Bay ? Sounds like a plan.  
 
skyhawkmatthew
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:56 am

There's no way this will ever happen.
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aussie18
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:00 am

Cant see this going ahead,Best chance of a 2nd Sydney airport is at Wilton but even that is in the "Too hard basket".
 
BoeingVista
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:03 am

Not going to happen.. for one thing the greenies will go on about changing tides and habitats for wading birds, also it concentrates noise over the inner west so will still be subject to curfew and movement caps.
BV
 
RickNRoll
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:07 am

Sydney will never get it's second airport.
 
anstar
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:13 am

This would never get through... and their is no point.


Sydney doesn't need more runways.... it's runways are already artificially capped.

This proposal just routes more flights over the suburbs which is why we have caps now.

If they wanted to expand SYD I would say get rid of the artificial cap and build a new terminal on reclaimed land.
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:16 am

[quote=BoeingVista,reply=4]Not going to happen.. for one thing the greenies will go on about changing tides and habitats for wading birds

LOL you are spot on my friend, not to mention it might scare the fish away. Unfortunealy as good as it sounds and yes Sydney has to do some thing the Greenies will always get in the way of progress and Julia will be to scared of the Greens to give this project the go ahead.
 
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EK413
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:36 am

Quoting jetfuel (Thread starter):

Finally someone has the balls to build a new Sydney Airport... Wait sorry didn't mean to get excited so quickly...

Ain't going to happen in a million years... I remember the 2nd airport was being discussed a good 26 years ago!!!

Never forget the sign erected across the road from Australia's Wonderland!

EK413
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RickNRoll
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:56 am

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 7):
the Greenies will always get in the way of progress and Julia will be to scared of the Greens to give this project the go ahead.

Why only blame the Greens? This is as much to do with other self interests.

a) Local residents, at all three proposed airport sites.
b) Investors in the existing airport.
c) Investors in land around the proposed airports.
d) Infrastructure needed for the proposed airports
e) The proposed new runways do nothing for caps on movements per hour and curfew.
f) Clashes between three levels of government, local, state and federal.
h) The interests of regional airlines that want to fly to the main airport, and not be consigned to a secondary airport.

Changes in government at all levels have done nothing to move expanding air capacity any closer to a reality. Instead, what you get is the necessity of making it look like something is happening. It was only recently the Liberal State Government proposed Canberra as the second airport, now they have just come up with something that is just as much a fairy tale. In the meantime, they have approved expansion of housing near the Canberra airport. You couldn't write a French farce that was more absurd.
 
jetfuel
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:59 am

I had to check it wasn't dated April 1
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
Quokkas
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:03 pm

Quite apart from any thoughts Greens or local residents may have, the salient point in the linked article may be,

Quote:
Mr Baird said he believed the Sydney Airport company, federal and state governments could all contribute to the cost of funding the plan.

I can see them all doing the sums to see who can out-bid to stump up the most. Sure. The company is primarily concerned with the shareholders and may be averse to the risk of using its own money. The State will cry poor and suggest that, as interstate and international travel is a federal matter, the Commonwealth should provide the most. Meanwhile, the federal treasurer can be heard muttering about a surplus and suggest that as Sydney is the main beneficiary...
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BoeingVista
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:55 pm

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 9):

Why only blame the Greens? This is as much to do with other self interests.

I don't really, that was me being ironic  

Look the simplest and best solution is a no brainier, build the 2nd airport at the site bought by the federal government in 1994 for the purpose of building Sydney's 2nd airport, Badgerys Creek.

This will never happen either.
BV
 
irishpower
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:03 pm

I'm confused. I don't see the 3rd and 4th new runway in the picture, unless they are planning to keep the old airport open as well. In that case then it looks like planes would be landing/taking off right behind each other or towards each other.

Doesn't make sense.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 4):
Not going to happen.. for one thing the greenies will go on about changing tides and habitats for wading birds
Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 7):
the Greenies will always get in the way of progress and Julia will be to scared of the Greens to give this project the go ahead.

I want to precis this comment by saying that I am in no way a supporter of the Greens.

Nonetheless, tidal flows, fish patterns, and wading birds were - in fact - the first things I thought of when I saw the image in the OP's post. This plan would potentially cut Botany Bay in half, and would therefore be an ecological disaster.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 11):
The State will cry poor and suggest that, as interstate and international travel is a federal matter, the Commonwealth should provide the most

And there's the real reason that nothing will ever happen. Our wonderful split system of government means that every level can palm off responsibility to someone else, and use the "we're too poor, but they're loaded" argument to justify doing nothing. It works for roads, so I'm sure it's good for airports as well.
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EK413
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:33 am

Quoting Irishpower (Reply 13):

So am I...!

The best solution to the problem being faced would be to buy out the properties in Kurnell and build a NEW airport similar to HKG in the ocean... Once the NEW airport becomes operational redevelop the current Kingsford Smith airport... BUT.... We all know that's in the too difficult not going to bloody happen basket!!!

EK413
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mariner
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:59 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 14):
Nonetheless, tidal flows, fish patterns, and wading birds were - in fact - the first things I thought of when I saw the image in the OP's post. This plan would potentially cut Botany Bay in half, and would therefore be an ecological disaster.

  

And if the western suburbs keep growing as fast as they are, it's going to be gridlock for anyone from the west getting to SYD.

Back in the old days, Botany Bay was a great idea for the flying boats, as an alternative to Rose Bay, but those days are gone.

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ozglobal
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:45 am

Build an HSR between Sydney-Canberra-Melbourne and eventually Brisbane and you won't need a second airport. But Australia seems, like the US, unable to make big infrastructure decisions any more...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
fuffla
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:23 am

That proposed development will never happen. That is a wildlife conservation area, the suburb is home to 2600 people and is the site of Captain Cook's first landing.

There are two main issues with the current Sydney Airport site. Runway capacity is limited under a cap system to reduce aircraft noise, and the layout of the airport itself is restricting gate availability during peak periods (or all day if you are flying Virgin Australia).

The first issue will only be resolved when local residents and politicians pull their heads out of their arses and lift the cap and reduce the curfew times (say to 0100-0500L). Travellers will be the first to complain when their flight is delayed due to the cap or congestion but will then on the other hand complain about aircraft noise. Education and responsible government will be the only cure.

The second issue comes down to ageing airport infrastructure and layout which can only be fixed by Sydney Airport Corporation and pressure from the government. One only has to arrive on an international flight at 0800-0900 in the morning and spend 30 minutes waiting for a gate to realise how bad the situation is becoming with no fix (neither short or long term) on the horizon. The airport needs to make better use of the limited land it has available, but that costs money and SACL (Macquarie Group) won't part with that anytime soon.

A new airport isn't required, the current site requires responsible government and capital investment. So unfortunately, the situation will not improve for some time because we do not have a responsible government on either side of parliament and no-one will part with their money.
 
qf002
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:12 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 17):
Build an HSR between Sydney-Canberra-Melbourne and eventually Brisbane and you won't need a second airport. But Australia seems, like the US, unable to make big infrastructure decisions any more...

        .

I find it impossible to believe that a federal government so intent on delivering major infrastructure (like the NBN) has such a shortsighted approach to this issue. Why spend all this money on a new airport, when it can be redirected to pay for most of a system that will revolutionise the way Australia travels/does business domestically.

All this talk though, nothing is going to happen until the change is forced (ie fuel getting really expensive).
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:28 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 15):
The best solution to the problem being faced would be to buy out the properties in Kurnell and build a NEW airport similar to HKG in the ocean... Once the NEW airport becomes operational redevelop the current Kingsford Smith airport... BUT.... We all know that's in the too difficult not going to bloody happen basket!!!

Hmm, was just thinking how much $$$ you would be able to raise by selling off the existing airport site to developers? A billion or more? Kingsford Smith sits on some pretty prime real estate so I would imagine it would be very valuable.

Building an airport on reclaimed land in the ocean though is prohibitively expensive.Maybe the best option is to build a brand new purpose built airport at Wilton and link it to the CBD via a dedicated HSR. The journey time would be what 30-40 mins to the CBD?? which would acceptable to most people. Once you build that HSR to Wilton, you've got the first link of the HSR to Canberra/Melbourne, although if we were to build that, we wouldn't need a second airport would we !!!   
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:36 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 14):
I want to precis this comment by saying that I am in no way a supporter of the Greens.

Nonetheless, tidal flows, fish patterns, and wading birds were - in fact - the first things I thought of when I saw the image in the OP's post. This plan would potentially cut Botany Bay in half, and would therefore be an ecological disaster.

  

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 17):
Build an HSR between Sydney-Canberra-Melbourne and eventually Brisbane and you won't need a second airport. But Australia seems, like the US, unable to make big infrastructure decisions any more...

        

Quoting anstar (Reply 6):
Sydney doesn't need more runways.... it's runways are already artificially capped.

This proposal just routes more flights over the suburbs which is why we have caps now.

If they wanted to expand SYD I would say get rid of the artificial cap and build a new terminal on reclaimed land.

For the foreseeable future, this is the ONLY option for SYD. The runways are nowhere near at capacity physically, just politically. The cap must be increased. The noise level of an airport is not what it was back when these caps were agreed upon, with the modern jets of today (ie A380, B77W, B788 etc) the cap could harmlessly be increased and the curfew even "trimmed" a bit too. I'm not just making this "someone else's problem" I live next to SYD and can say the noise is not a problem anymore like it was with older jets.

As for terminal space, there is so much ample room on solid ground at SYD even the need for reclamation from the bay for a terminal is not necessary. There have been many studies done on how to better use the plentiful land at SYD, the governments just need to agree and let the operators of SYD make it better.
 
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mariner
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:40 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 19):
Why spend all this money on a new airport, when it can be redirected to pay for most of a system that will revolutionise the way Australia travels/does business domestically.

Maybe I'm missing your point, but I don't see how HSR between Sydney and Melbourne has more than a very small impact on air traffic congestion at SYD or MEL.

mariner
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SYDSpotter
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:53 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
Maybe I'm missing your point, but I don't see how HSR between Sydney and Melbourne has more than a very small impact on air traffic congestion at SYD or MEL.

I think there are like 70 daily flight pairs between Melbourne and Sydney daily (70 arrivals and 70 departures). I believe there are about 400 odd daily departures and 400 arrivals (international and domestic) everyday into and out of SYD. So MEL to SYD does contribute to alot of the airport traffic, if a HSR were to be in place, you would maybe take away say 50% of the existing air market, so you save about 30 odd arrival and departure slots (a little under 10%). You're right a small impact, but would make a difference in the peak times when you have flights every 1/2 hour from QF, DJ, JQ and TT between SYD and MEL departing/arriving.
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qf002
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:06 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
Maybe I'm missing your point, but I don't see how HSR between Sydney and Melbourne has more than a very small impact on air traffic congestion at SYD or MEL.

Something like 30-40% of SYD movements (I'll see if I can track down the place I read that) are to/from MEL, CBR and BNE. Offer alternative ways of reaching those cities at a cheaper cost, in as little time centre to centre and you'll free up a lot of capacity at the existing airport.
 
BoeingVista
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:48 am

Quoting fuffla (Reply 18):
The first issue will only be resolved when local residents and politicians pull their heads out of their arses and lift the cap and reduce the curfew times

Nope, I used to live between 16 and 34 about 5km out and operation between 6.00 and 23.00 is quite enough thank you. Until I moved I really didn't appreciate how disruptive the noise was. Locals will never agree to changing the curfew.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 17):
Build an HSR between Sydney-Canberra-Melbourne and eventually Brisbane and you won't need a second airport. But Australia seems, like the US, unable to make big infrastructure decisions any more...

Well NSW being completely dysfunctional has just approved a housing development under the flight path to Canberra airport which will lead to a curfew there.

Quote:
THE O'Farrell government's plans for Canberra to host Sydney's second airport are in tatters, following the approval of a big housing development in the Canberra Airport flight path, the federal government says.

The NSW Planning Minister, Brad Hazzard, will announce on Tuesday the government has agreed to rezone land for the South Tralee housing development, a controversial proposal that will allow about 2000 homes to be built south of the airport.
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/second-...rt-plan-dashed-20121105-28ucu.html
BV
 
strangr
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:00 am

Well if we want to talk about reclaimed land. How about we chuck it here.

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Flyingsottsman
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:07 pm

What is the actual problem with SYD ?

is it the curfew ?
is it a lack of gates?
is the airport to small for the amount of flights that come in ?
is 3 runways not enough for Sydney ?
 
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EK413
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:17 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 27):
What is the actual problem with SYD ?

is it the curfew ?
is it a lack of gates?
is the airport to small for the amount of flights that come in ?
is 3 runways not enough for Sydney ?

You hit the nail in the head...!!!

With the exception of the 3 runways... Sydney needs the curfew altered with extended hours of operations... The international terminal is screaming for more gate space, nothing worse after traveling +10 hours and having to be bused to the terminal (I've seen it with my own eyes but unfortunately I haven't experienced yet)...
The terminal of the future plans which have been scrapped was a huge blow as would've solved the gate issue...

EK413
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RickNRoll
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:18 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 25):
Well NSW being completely dysfunctional has just approved a housing development under the flight path to Canberra airport which will lead to a curfew there.

There is so much empty land around Canberra, why put a housing estate there?
 
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a36001
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:21 pm

Get real! This will never happen! Our politicians simply do not have the guts to do it! They will scuttle the entire economy of Sydney (drama added) because some sandle wearing greenie will find a frog somewhere! I wish in some ways we were more like Japan, Osaka says it needs a new airport, no land available so let's level three mountain ranges and build an island! I call that progressive thinking, something we lack in Australia sadly! :-/
 
Cerecl
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:38 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 19):
I find it impossible to believe that a federal government so intent on delivering major infrastructure (like the NBN) has such a shortsighted approach to this issue.

The way I see it, the federal government hasn't really obtained a mandate for an HSR. With the current political and economical environment I think it is unwise for the government to propose such a project. Just imagine Tony Abbott having a field day with "white elephant" "pink batts II" "broken promise on budget surplus" etc.
Secondly, such project will undoubtedly be very expensive. I am personally not concerned about it and am even willing to contribute to it in the form of a tax, having seen the enormous impact HSR is having in China. However, as much as it pains me to say it, I don't think the Australian society, as a whole, has a forward looking mentality when it comes to long-term prospects. Too many people are too comfortable with what they have today and they will be blinded by "XX billion" price tag without realising what an HSR can achieve in the long run
Thirdly, state and federal government politics will undoubtedly hinder the project. With NSW/QLD/VIC's Coalition government one can be sure there will be endless point scoring from both sides of politics.
Fourthly, NIMBYs, NIMBYs, NIMBYs.

I fully support a HSR, but I am very pessimistic over the prospect of one actually being built in the next three decades, if ever.
 
qf002
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:18 pm

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 31):
The way I see it, the federal government hasn't really obtained a mandate for an HSR

Yup, and the problem is that the mandate often doesn't exist until after the issue has taken effect. With a project that would take so long to develop/build, waiting until the mandate exists can cause massive issues.

Though you're completely correct that the politicians don't think about it that way...
 
ozglobal
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 32):
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 31):
The way I see it, the federal government hasn't really obtained a mandate for an HSR

Yup, and the problem is that the mandate often doesn't exist until after the issue has taken effect.

It's called "leadership"....  
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Cerecl
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:09 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 32):
Yup, and the problem is that the mandate often doesn't exist until after the issue has taken effect. With a project that would take so long to develop/build, waiting until the mandate exists can cause massive issues.
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 33):
It's called "leadership"....

Labor hasn't enough political capital to exhibit any leadership on this issue at the moment. If they win government next year they may start to lay the foundation for an HSR during that term. My most optimistic estimate is for serious work to start during the term after that. If the Coalition gets up, one can forget about such a project.
 
RickNRoll
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:36 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 33):
It's called "leadership"....  

Politics is in a very negative phase at the moment. Everyone wants to keep their head down, and save money.

In theory, a functional NBN could reduce the need for travel if video conferencing becomes simple, reliable and cheap.
 
strangr
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:41 am

Sydney does not need a bigger airport. The simple solution is to build a 3rd Runway in Melbourne, we have no issues with a curfew and well we are crying out for people to come visit out big wheel.
 
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EK413
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:01 am

Quoting strangr (Reply 36):
Sydney does not need a bigger airport. The simple solution is to build a 3rd Runway in Melbourne, we have no issues with a curfew and well we are crying out for people to come visit out big wheel.

No offence but SYD is the gateway to Australia and I bet my money MEL will get a 3rd runway built way before any decision is made on the 2nd SYD airport... It ain't going to happen and the politicians need to get their heads out of the sand and make a decision!

EK413
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mariner
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:12 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 24):
Something like 30-40% of SYD movements (I'll see if I can track down the place I read that) are to/from MEL, CBR and BNE.

I"m surprised by that number. I'm not disputing it, but it seems high.

Quoting a36001 (Reply 30):
They will scuttle the entire economy of Sydney (drama added) because some sandle wearing greenie will find a frog somewhere! I wish in some ways we were more like Japan, Osaka says it needs a new airport, no land available so let's level three mountain ranges and build an island! I call that progressive thinking, something we lack in Australia sadly! :-/


I'm no greenie, but I prefer to live with some considerations for the environment.

mariner
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RyanairGuru
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:29 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
I"m surprised by that number. I'm not disputing it, but it seems high.

I'm not overly surprised myself. If you think that QF runs flight up to every 15 minutes from SYD to MEL at peak times, plus 2 with DL, plus JQ and TT, then there can easily be up to 8 flights an hour each way between SYD and MEL. BNE is another 4-5, and at some times of day/day of the week QF have 5 flights an hour from CBR to SYD + 1/2 from DJ.

At peak times those 3 routes alone could account for almost 20 departures an hour!
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
BoeingVista
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:30 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 32):
Yup, and the problem is that the mandate often doesn't exist until after the issue has taken effect. With a project that would take so long to develop/build, waiting until the mandate exists can cause massive issues.

Though you're completely correct that the politicians don't think about it that way...

Getting planning permission for a 1000km high speed rail line would be a nightmare as would the actual build. And when you have finished you will be lucky if the Melbourne to Sydney trip time is under 4 hours.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 34):
Labor hasn't enough political capital to exhibit any leadership on this issue at the moment. If they win government next year they may start to lay the foundation for an HSR during that term.

What are you talking about? Labour does not have a policy of building a HSR thats the Greens.
BV
 
Cerecl
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:07 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 40):
What are you talking about? Labour does not have a policy of building a HSR thats the Greens.

I should have been clearer. What I proposed obviously depends on Labor actually having an internal consensus that an HSR should be built. They may not, hence my "most optimistic" comment.
Having said that, I think there is enough signals out there that Labor is at least giving the idea some serious thought with the feasibility study. The whole point of my previous post is that even if Labor wants to do it now is not the time to make it a formal policy. That Labor does not have a stated policy to build an HSR is therefore IMHO irrelevant. As to the Greens, they can have a policy of building a space station for that matters. They are not going to form the government, and I don't see an HSR as a key demand should they hold the balance of power.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 40):
Getting planning permission for a 1000km high speed rail line would be a nightmare as would the actual build. And when you have finished you will be lucky if the Melbourne to Sydney trip time is under 4 hours.

I don't disagree. However, time will be saved if stations in SYD and MEL are located in the CBD, plus less check in/boarding time etc. However, the impact of an HSR on satellite cities of Sydney or Melbourne will simply be enormous. Imagine living 100-200 km away from these two major metropolis and spent only 30-45 minutes one way going into work every day. It opens up so many opportunities.
 
qf002
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:08 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
I"m surprised by that number. I'm not disputing it, but it seems high.

I'm not being precise here, but:

SYD has just over 310,000 movements a year. That's 850 movements a day on average and includes departures and arrivals.

There are up to 88 daily departures to MEL. On average, there are 77 a day, which makes for 154 movements at SYD.

There are up to 32 daily departures to CBR. On average, there are 27 a day, which makes for 54 movements at SYD.

Together, that's 208 movements just to MEL/CBR, which accounts for about 25% of total movements.

There are up to 50 daily departures to BNE. On average, there are 45 a day, which makes for 90 movements at SYD.

Including MEL, CBR and BNE, that's 298 movements which is just over 35% of total movements. On a busy weekday, that could be higher with 40 extra movements.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 40):
Getting planning permission for a 1000km high speed rail line would be a nightmare as would the actual build. And when you have finished you will be lucky if the Melbourne to Sydney trip time is under 4 hours.

Compared to building a new airport anywhere near Sydney, which will be a walk in the park? Both will be enormous projects, cause massive planning/construction issues and cost ****loads of money, so why not choose to do the project that will have a more meaningful impact in the long run.

And a 300kmh train should make the journey in about 3 hours including a stop in CBR. That's extremely competitive remembering the 15 minute trip to/from the city in Sydney and the 30 minute trip at the Melbourne end.

[Edited 2012-11-14 05:08:08]
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2517
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:27 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 42):
And a 300kmh train should make the journey in about 3 hours including a stop in CBR. That's extremely competitive remembering the 15 minute trip to/from the city in Sydney and the 30 minute trip at the Melbourne end.

Of course it's competitive. What's more, comfort and productivity of the time are much higher. You can work or dine, when you want, from the time you get on until you arrive: city centre to city centre. Plus, you can have some trains stop at regional HSR stops. This opens up new development in rural areas, as has been the case in France and other countries; one could even argue, around Ashford in the UK.

Also, new generation of HSR is typically 350-360 km/h e.g. Alstom AGV now deployed in Italy.
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TheCommodore
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:07 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
I"m surprised by that number. I'm not disputing it, but it seems high.

I may be completely wrong, but I think I read somewhere (long time ago) that SYD/MEL was one, if not the, busiest routes in the world.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
ozglobal
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):
Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
I"m surprised by that number. I'm not disputing it, but it seems high.

I may be completely wrong, but I think I read somewhere (long time ago) that SYD/MEL was one, if not the, busiest routes in the world.

Depending on the season and the way you measure (seats vs flights), it is top 4 or top 5 in the world...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
tp1040
Posts: 291
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:10 pm

As an outsider, just looking at the map, you could put a nice 6 runway airport in Heathcote.
 
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cosyr
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:16 pm

Rather than building the whole airport out there, why don't they just extend the existing peninsulas and move the runways farther out. Then they can build more terminal space where the current runways intersect.
 
PITrules
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:00 pm

I like the article's headline, but that's about it. The layout depicted is nonsensical.

Lift the movement cap, then build a 3rd parallel runway in the bay. It's the best solution as it would give SYD decades of additional use.
FLYi
 
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EK413
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RE: New SYD Airport In Botany Bay

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 47):

Botany Bay is a historical bay it ain't going to happen plus I wouldnt want to see that either...

EK413
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