LondonCity
Topic Author
Posts: 987
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:57 pm

KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:13 pm

KLM has just announced it will fly x 2 daily between Manston airport in Kent and Amsterdam effective April 2 next year. Bookings will open on November 14.

Flights will be operated by 80-seater F70s.

I believe it's the first time that Manston has been linked to Amsterdam. This little-known airport is convenient for travellers based in SE England and Kent. It's not too far from from the suburbs of SE London by road.

As one might expect, KL's schedules are designed to feed its Amsterdam hub.

KL1516 Manston-Amsterdam 0635-0835
KL1519 Amsterdam-Manston 1010-1005
KL1520 Manston-Amsterdam 1040-1235
KL1523 Amsterdam-Manston 2050-2045
 
Damian
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:01 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
I believe it's the first time that Manston has been linked to Amsterdam.

Didn't the short-lived EU Jet briefly operate F100s between MSE and AMS back in 2004/05?
 
User avatar
Vasu
Posts: 2946
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:34 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting damian (Reply 1):
Didn't the short-lived EU Jet briefly operate F100s between MSE and AMS back in 2004/05?

They did indeed - flew on their inaugural flight in September 2004.

Glad to see some "useful" service back at Manston... no doubt I'll be using it at some point!
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16015
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:06 pm

Interesting and nice!
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
GIANCAVIA
Posts: 906
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:45 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:20 pm

That's going to last long, No really it will.
 
avion660
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:52 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:20 pm

Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
This little-known airport is convenient for travellers based in SE England and Kent. It's not too far from from the suburbs of SE London by road.

Er, are you sure? It's got to be at least 65 miles and getting on for an hour and 20 - 30 minutes to get from the London suburbs. Manston is not that handy for west Kent either (west of Maidstone) .. Gatwick has that sown up. East Kent (surely the only market) probably has a population of 500,000. This new route would have been a better idea in the days when a major international company like Pfizer was based in Sandwich (less than 10 miles from Manston); not sure now though.

Quoting damian (Reply 1):
Didn't the short-lived EU Jet briefly operate F100s between MSE and AMS back in 2004/05?

They lasted what, a year at Manston (sorry, Kent International)?
 
richcandy
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2001 4:49 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:28 pm

Don't know about this one.

Small aircraft operating just twice a day and the nearest alternative (LGW) being 70-90 mins away. Might just work.

Thinking along the lines of connecting traffic, rather than just AMS.

[Edited 2012-11-13 11:29:58]
 
LondonCity
Topic Author
Posts: 987
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:57 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:37 pm

Quoting avion660 (Reply 5):
They lasted what, a year at Manston (sorry, Kent International)?

KLM has deeper pockets than EU Jet.

Quoting avion660 (Reply 5):
Er, are you sure? It's got to be at least 65 miles and getting on for an hour and 20 - 30 minutes to get from the London suburbs. Manston is not that handy for west Kent either (west of Maidstone) .. Gatwick has that sown up.

Fair point. I was thinking more in terms of the outer SE suburbs rather than areas closer to Central London. I agree that LGW is closer but this is a KLM service and is therefore aimed at passengers connecting onto KLM's global network. If you take a BA flight from LGW you lose the advantage of a special KLM fare beyond AMS while with U2 you cannot interline.

Yes, KLM does fly from LCY but traffic conditions (to access LCY) can be tricky at peak times from the outer SE suburbs because of the Blackwall Tunnel, A2, M25, Dartford Crossing, A13 and so on.

On the other hand, driving to Manston for KLM's morning flights in the morning means going against the traffic flow so the journey is more predictable. Another advantage, I am sure, will be cheap car parking at Manston.
 
shilenb
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:15 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:45 pm

Fabulous, being a student in the nearby University of Kent this is good news for me, lets just hope the route price is reasonable
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16015
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting shilenb (Reply 8):
lets just hope the route price is reasonable

Probably from around £100 or so return if you stay a Saturday night or a few days.

I've double-checked but it's not yet available for booking.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10011
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:06 pm

Excellent news for the region, this has been hotly anticipated. The date of the announcement was basically stated a while ago.

Here are some articles which give some background to the decision:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-19758802

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ManstonKLM

http://www.kentnews.co.uk/news/huge_...ton_s_klm_flights_survey_1_1659557

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 4):
That's going to last long, No really it will.

It certainly will. The East Kent area is one of the most isolated areas of the country in terms of access to commercial air services, especially considering the relative wealth of it's catchment area. Prior to this their nearest airport was LCY, some 75 miles away. The direct catchment area runs from Medway, down to Maidstone and on to Hastings on the South coast. That's pretty big and is an area with a high propensity to fly.

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 6):
Thinking along the lines of connecting traffic, rather than just AMS.

That will be key. A big undeserved market and only a few hundred seats to fill each day. If it's not thrice daily within a year I'd be surprised.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3396
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:09 pm

AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?
 
affirmative
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:22 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:11 pm

Funny.. Just flew the NDB approach at Manston today. And doing it again tomorrow..   They have a big old runway and it's sad it's not used for more than a few cargo flights a week and training flights..
I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
 
gkirk
Posts: 23347
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?

No chance. I give it a year-18 months tops
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
richcandy
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2001 4:49 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:23 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?

Isn't it a very different market?

With Liverpool there EZY already flight the route and picking up the point to point. Then you have KLM flying from Manchester which is reasonably close. Closer than cities like Canterbury are from Gatwick.
 
LondonCity
Topic Author
Posts: 987
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:57 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?

Yes, but LPL is close to MAN from where there is a greater choice of flights to AMS.

As has been noted above, the East Kent area is 75 miles from LCY which is the closest airport with KLM (Cityjet) links. Here in the Southeast, it's not so much the distance it's the fact that driving conditions to LCY are so unpredictable thanks to the Blackwall Tunnel/Dartford River Crossing.
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10011
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 14):
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?

Isn't it a very different market?

Totally different market and totally different income levels and travel habits.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 15):
As has been noted above, the East Kent area is 75 miles from LCY which is the closest airport with KLM (Cityjet) links.

The closest of any airport with scheduled air links.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
GCT64
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:26 pm

Another example of increasing competition between the big European carriers:

BA announce RTM-LHR to attract Dutch customers into the long haul network at LHR (and RTM is only 60km from AMS).
KL announce MSE-AMS to attract UK customers into the long haul network at AMS.
BA announce LBA-LHR to attract flyers away from LBA-AMS and into BA's long haul network instead of KL's. etc. etc.

We are probably going to see a lot more of this as it becomes a three way knife fight ... BA/IB v KL/AF v LH/its team.
Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,B190,(..54 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
marky
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:16 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:45 pm

Quoting avion660 (Reply 5):
Er, are you sure? It's got to be at least 65 miles and getting on for an hour and 20 - 30 minutes to get from the London suburbs.

Depends how far into London you are talking about - I would consider I live in the London suburbs (inside the M25 in a London borough) and I can drive to Manston in an hour. Apart from the last 2 or 3 miles it is relatively quiet dual carriageway road all the way. LGW or STN take 45 minutes and LHR an hour plus. The convenience of parking etc at Manston easily makes the overall journey door to door shorter.

Don't get me wrong, I don't imagine too many people from SE London would consider Manston over the London airports even if KLM do some serious marketing but if I have need to go to AMS I'd certainly give it a go.
 
User avatar
eurowings
Posts: 536
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:40 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:47 am

Interesting and if marketed effectively, I could see MSE - AMS working as a long-standing route. KL is of course a very well established operator out of the UK "regions" and I agree with the above poster that BA's announcement of new RTM/LBA-LHR routes are likely to have influenced this decision. BA has automatically become stronger since BD mainline's demise and competitors are taking notice.

LPL - AMS and MSE - AMS are two very different routes. The former was up against a strong EZY point-to-point offering and MAN's services barely 35 miles away.
"Freddie Laker may be at peace with his Maker, but he is persona non grata with IATA."- HRH Duke of Edinburgh
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2268
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:37 am

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 6):
Small aircraft operating just twice a day and the nearest alternative (LGW) being 70-90 mins away

But KLM dont fly from LGW, so they are competing with U2 & BA for O&D & Europe and EK & QR for longhaul or LHR, which can be a right fix to get to from Kent if the M25 is busy.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 7):
KLM has deeper pockets than EU Jet.

And a network with all the "legacy" perks, not just O&D traffic.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 7):
Fair point. I was thinking more in terms of the outer SE suburbs rather than areas closer to Central London
Quoting marky (Reply 18):
Depends how far into London you are talking about - I would consider I live in the London suburbs (inside the M25 in a London borough) and I can drive to Manston in an hour. Apart from the last 2 or 3 miles it is relatively quiet dual carriageway road all the way

I used MSE once in the EUjet days - I admit I was probably driving faster than I should have been, but it took me an hour on a Sunday night from North London (A406 / A10 junction pretty much)!! The M2 is a pretty good road once past Bexley area and I think its convenience is somewhat dismissed.

Quoting marky (Reply 18):
Don't get me wrong, I don't imagine too many people from SE London would consider Manston over the London airports even if KLM do some serious marketing but if I have need to go to AMS I'd certainly give it a go.

Im not so sure, KLM offer a lot of good destinations in Africa, Asia, CIS, Europe and even US. It could be just as convenient as trying to get round to LHR and avoid all the related crowds for security etc.

KLM have success in serving airports like HUY & NWI which are in the boonies with supposedly little local market (yes, I know they have oil traffic).
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
FI642
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:48 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:47 am

Interesting to say the least. Connect via AMS or fly non-stop from LHR or LGW. Hmmm
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
tripple7
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 8:53 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:28 am

Interesting choice. Nice to see KLM expanding and adding destinations. Hope this one will work out for them.
 
richcandy
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2001 4:49 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:58 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 20):
But KLM dont fly from LGW, so they are competing with U2 & BA for O&D & Europe and EK & QR for longhaul or LHR, which can be a right fix to get to from Kent if the M25 is busy.

Was not thinking of KLM, I was just thinking of the closest airport (other than LCY).

Quoting FI642 (Reply 21):
Interesting to say the least. Connect via AMS or fly non-stop from LHR or LGW. Hmmm

If you live in Canterbury area.

LHR/LGW = Long drive to the airport, busy terminal but non stop flight.

MSE = short drive to the airport, near empty terminal but other than AMS you need to connect.

I guess a lot depends on the connection time.

When I worked in the industry (years ago) people who lived in Norfolk would pay more to fly KLM out of NWI rather than drive to LHR/LGW/LCY.

Alex
 
anstar
Posts: 2870
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:13 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 20):

But KLM dont fly from LGW, so they are competing with U2 & BA for O&D & Europe

BA have cut their LGW-AMS even more for next season. U2 is winning that war.

I woudl expect this is more of a feed for long haul than attracting O&D.
 
User avatar
SKAirbus
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:18 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:17 am

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 17):

BA announce RTM-LHR to attract Dutch customers into the long haul network at LHR (and RTM is only 60km from AMS).

You can't really compare that to East Kent... First of all Rotterdam is the second largest city in the Netherlands with nearly 700,000 people and is a huge economic centre, including Europe's largest port. East Kent, is unfortunately a comparitively deprived area with very little high-yielding businesses in the vicinity. There was Pfizer in Sandwich but that is being dramatically scaled back.

Then again... KLM have a habit of making unlikely destinations work. They just started operating to Ålesund twice a day so we'll see!
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
 
Ratypus
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:26 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:16 am

If they can keep check-in times at MSE short, this might just work from Kent and South London for connections onto KLM's long-haul network. As several people have pointed out, MSE is an easy and predictable drive out of South London (as opposed to LHR or City, both of which could be infinitely delayed by traffic...); if they can keep check-in times short (and given the flight timings out of MSE), then for much of KLM's long-haul network out of AMS they might be able to make up the 'extra' time with a quick connection.....this already works fairly well out of LCY; from South/East London, it is actually quicker if you travelling to, say, the Far East, to hop over to LCY with a 15-minute check-in and do a quick change in AMS, than to trek all the way over to LHR, check-in 1 or 2 hours ahead of time and fly long-haul directly.

The fact that AMS is a really easy airport to connect in will help too (single terminal, clearly signed, the operation clearly designed with connections in mind - unlike LHR (bar T5), US airports etc). I would consider using this route if flying long-haul eastbound (even though I live fairly near LCY, the Blackwall Tunnel traffic always makes for a nervous ride to the airport...)
 
starrymarkb
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:19 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:16 am

Now if only they'd do EXT too  
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16015
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:47 am

Given there's a codeshare between EXT and CDG with BE and AF, with onward connections facilitated, it doesn't seem, from my brief search, also to apply with KL via AMS. This is from my search on KLM's UK website. Anyone know why?

In any case, 1x daily isn't useful for connections, so clearly it is based upon local traffic with any connecting traffic a bonus.

[Edited 2012-11-14 02:51:57]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:50 am

So what kind of markets are they aiming for here? Asia? Europe? Africa?
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10011
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:56 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 28):
Anyone know why?

Apparently because setting up the arrangement is not financially viable for FlyBe on a one daily flight.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 28):
In any case, 1x daily isn't useful for connections, so clearly it is based upon local traffic with any connecting traffic a bonus.

Not useful at all, the fares are ridiculous and the connection times are have been around 8 hours for the last trip options I looked at. It used to be double daily, as I think Amsterdam was, and the AF code-share was applied when the second flight still operated.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
richcandy
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2001 4:49 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting JU068 (Reply 29):
So what kind of markets are they aiming for here? Asia? Europe? Africa?

I guess whatever they can get. However it must be easier to sell connections to long haul cities over AMS rather than short haul.
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10011
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:24 pm

Just an interesting point to add, in terms of connectivity (directly to a hub airport, or to an airport with at least twice daily services to a major hub) Manston has gone straight into the top ten, having been almost in last place.

No wonder the local chamber of commerce and council have gotten excited - that is a big boost for the area's economic prospects.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
LondonCity
Topic Author
Posts: 987
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:57 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:50 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 32):
No wonder the local chamber of commerce and council have gotten excited - that is a big boost for the area's economic prospects.

That is a good point to make. Having Manston on an aviation map means it becomes easier when the local chamber of commerce seeks overseas business and investment. A potential investor would baulk at the thought of having to travel to East Kent all the way from one of the London airports.
 
GCT64
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 23):
LHR/LGW = Long drive to the airport, busy terminal but non stop flight.
MSE = short drive to the airport, near empty terminal but other than AMS you need to connect.
Quoting JU068 (Reply 29):
So what kind of markets are they aiming for here? Asia? Europe? Africa?

There is also the cost, availability, itinerary issue. Plenty of people I know end up "doubling back" on the themselves on itineraries for many different reasons and I know a lot who have flown EDI-AMS-USA even though they fly back over their house 8 hours after they walked out of the front door. I think you will find people using this link to Asia, USA and Europe if the prices are right and the AMS connection times reasonably short (certainly the flight times look to support connections to/from the US and Europe although they don't seem to support evening departures to Asia).
Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,B190,(..54 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
shilenb
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:15 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:56 pm

Just had a look at the fares on KL's website and the prices seem reasonable. 99GBP return for the weekend in april
 
Humberside
Posts: 3223
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:44 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 30):
Apparently because setting up the arrangement is not financially viable for FlyBe on a one daily flight.

Can't be right. KLM codeshare on BE's once daily INV-AMS
http://www.flybe.com/franchise_codeshare/codeshares.htm
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
User avatar
Vasu
Posts: 2946
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:34 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting shilenb (Reply 35):
99GBP return for the weekend in april

Not the worst... but I do also wish Manston would get some low-cost flights!
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10011
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting Humberside (Reply 36):
Can't be right. KLM codeshare on BE's once daily INV-AMS
http://www.flybe.com/franchise_codes...s.htm

Yes it can if you already have a codeshare in place on another route.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
Humberside
Posts: 3223
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:44 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 38):
Yes it can if you already have a codeshare in place on another route.

Then why not EXT-AMS as well?

If frequency determines a codeshare, then it makes no sense why INV has one, and EXT (or EMA for that matter) does not. There must be some other reason
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10011
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:38 pm

Quoting Humberside (Reply 39):
If frequency determines a codeshare, then it makes no sense why INV has one, and EXT (or EMA for that matter) does not. There must be some other reason

In the case of EMA there is, the route has only just commenced. In the case of EXT the once daily codeshare service to CDG comfortably satisfies current (limited) demand from those prepared to pay the high premium (£100 upwards) to fly from Exeter not Bristol. Even after the reduction from double daily the passenger numbers have stagnated on EXT-CDG, with a slight reduction in fact so far this year. Adding a codeshare to the AMS flight, which operates at almost exactly the same time as the CDG service, would just double associated costs but would be unlikely to generate any meaningful extra revenue. So I can understand why it has apparently been decided against.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19046
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:33 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 40):
Adding a codeshare to the AMS flight, which operates at almost exactly the same time as the CDG service, would just double associated costs but would be unlikely to generate any meaningful extra revenue.

Except AMS is a much more convenient and pleasant connecting hub than CDG. Given the choice of connecting at CDG or AMS I would pick AMS every time. It's by far my preferred connecting hub in Europe. Only MUC and ZRH approach AMS in convenience but AMS is still the winner in my experience.
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10011
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:50 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41):
Except AMS is a much more convenient and pleasant connecting hub than CDG. Given the choice of connecting at CDG or AMS I would pick AMS every time. It's by far my preferred connecting hub in Europe. Only MUC and ZRH approach AMS in convenience but AMS is still the winner in my experience.

Personally I feel the same way too, but I can see that from a bean counters perspective it's a no brainer. Worth remembering here that the choice is essentially travelling another hour by road to BRS for an AMS flight, or departing EXT via CDG. Again, no contest if you are not price sensitive.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
raffik
Posts: 1531
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:50 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:10 pm

That's good news for Manston. I drove by it once and it seemed in the middle of nowhere. I guess there is a cachement area however and I hope it does well for the airline. The seats are competitive and Amsterdam is a popular destination for getaways etc.

It reminds me of Southend Airport, my home town, which for decades was more or less devoid of any scheduled air service, apart from a weekly flight to Jersey in the summer. Now when I look at the airport, it has completely transformed itself into a vibrant airport with variety and choice.

Perhaps with KLM offering services to Manston, other airlines will look at opening services from there.
I could see Ryanair offering flights out of "London Manston Airport".
- Alec
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3088
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:29 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 25):
East Kent, is unfortunately a comparitively deprived area with very little high-yielding businesses in the vicinity. There was Pfizer in Sandwich but that is being dramatically scaled back.

The above concurs with my understanding of East Kent, I believe it has in the past been an area that qualifies for EU money on the basis of its deprivity, certainly the seaside towns have struggled for years with the holidaymakers often replaced by recent immigrants.
I wonder if KLM might be eligble for any financial sweeteners due to the areas relative poverty ?
 
GIANCAVIA
Posts: 906
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:45 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting raffik (Reply 43):
I could see Ryanair offering flights out of "London Manston Airport".

I cant, They have had all these years to do it and haven't for a reason.

EUjet came along and nobody batted and eyelid because it wasnt competition it was a waste of time. I think the owners lost 7 million gbp in first half of the year between the airline and the airport itself lol.

There are also some very vocal nimbys near by Manston Airport...
Good luck to KLM but yeah, I am not as optomistic as some people on here.

I will go as far as to say I see the airport dissapearing rather then getting more flights.
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:10 pm

Quoting gkirk (Reply 13):
No chance. I give it a year-18 months tops

Wow, as long as that. I'll give it 9 months. Three months of that running with the seats nearly empty.

That route will be as useful to SE England as a milk chocolate teacup in Dubai. No one from SE London is going to go all the way to Manston when they can get Amsterdam flights from real London airports.

Call me a pessimist if you like.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:30 pm

Airport charges have to be far lower at Manston, plus the flight is very short (especially considering there is no traffic / holiding as at Heathrow) so they can perhaps load half as much fuel on the aircraft as they would need to put it into LHR. For passengers also there are advantages - less traffic, no crowds, easy parking and apart from it's own catchment area it is another option for people that live in SE London. And this connects Eastern Kent not just to Amsterdam, but to the world (and flying from LHR you'd probably have to connect somewhere anyway unless money's no object). I think this could be quite sucessful, but who knows, only time will tell.
 
LX138
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:45 pm

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:02 pm

People seem positive, but honestly? This will not last.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 47):
so they can perhaps load half as much fuel on the aircraft as they would need to put it into LHR. For passengers also there are advantages - less traffic, no crowds, easy parking and apart from it's own catchment area it is another option for people that live in SE London. And this connects Eastern Kent not just to

I don't think less fuel will help. The average customer doesn't really care about traffic and smaller crowds either. And the local catchment area is apparently one of the UK's 'most deprived areas' according to another poster. Looking good!

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 32):
No wonder the local chamber of commerce and council have gotten excited - that is a big boost for the area's economic prospects.

I'm not sure what a 2x service from AMS will exactly do, the odd new check-in job, the odd new passenger buying an iced bun from the local petrol station - big boost might be a bit overkill?
StarWorld Team - The ultimate airline alliance
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10011
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2

Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting LX138 (Reply 48):
I'm not sure what a 2x service from AMS will exactly do, the odd new check-in job, the odd new passenger buying an iced bun from the local petrol station - big boost might be a bit overkill?

It's a much wider picture than that. For an area/location to attract business and investment it needs to be well connected by road, rail and air - the latter is especially important for more peripheral locations like East Kent.

The unfortunate situation in Plymouth (where the airport has been mothballed) is a good example of why airlinks are important. A number of large businesses, employing from several hundred to several thousand people, stated that it was the airport/airlinks (especially the former CDG/LHR links) which attracted them to locate and invest in the city, because it mitigated the peripheral location. Indeed a recent survey reported that some three quarters of the city's key businesses need good airlinks and desire major hub connectivity to operate.

The KLM service into Manston will tick a lot of boxes in terms of accessibility and investability in the local area. Going from no service to double daily into a major European hub is really hitting the jackpot. It will need to be seen that they are sustainable, but I don't see that being too difficult.

Quoting babybus (Reply 46):
Wow, as long as that. I'll give it 9 months. Three months of that running with the seats nearly empty.

Highly pessimistic in my opinion.

Manston claim to have a catchment area of 1.5 million people within a one hour drive. At an educated guess, half of those will have Manston as their nearest airport. Propensity to fly for leisure based on average household income means it can be expected that people in this area will take an average of two trips per year - 1.4 to European destinations and 0.6 to international non European destinations. So, out of a potential for 1.5 million trips, KLM need to capture less than 8% of a market where there is no direct competitor to fill every seat each year. And that's not even taking into account anyone travelling on business.

Highly doable in my book.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...