LAXintl
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DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:01 pm

The DOT established proceeding to reallocated of two former Spirit Airlines within perimeter (1,250 miles) Air-21 slot exemptions at DCA.

Under the Air-21 rules the departments selection criteria consist of;
• New entrant air carriers or limited incumbent air carriers (hold fewer than 40 slots at DCA)
• Service to communities without existing nonstop air transportation to DCA.
• Service to smaller communities.
• Provide competitive nonstop air service on a monopoly DCA route.
• Produce competitive consumer benefits including low fares.

Applications due December 5, 2012.

OST-2000-7182
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
airliner371
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:06 pm

Finally. I made a thread on this a while back asking what happened.

I expect to see WN apply. Not sure about SY, F9 or B6.

[Edited 2012-11-14 06:07:53]
 
sdoyon
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:07 pm

We'll definitely see something from WN/FL...maybe the return of the DCA-OKC application?

As for other carriers who, at a quick glance, look like they have less than 40 slots (AC, AS, B6, F9, SY, VX) I think all except AS and VX will make bids.
 
countrymalenc
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The DOT established proceeding to reallocated of two former Spirit Airlines within perimeter (1,250 miles) Air-21 slot exemptions at DCA

Could you post the website where you found this information please ?
 
sdoyon
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting countrymalenc (Reply 3):
Could you post the website where you found this information please ?
http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2000-7182-1914

[Edited 2012-11-14 06:12:12]
 
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enilria
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:20 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 1):
F9

I don't think F9 really can apply. They just sold DCA slots to US Airways and didn't even get government approval for the transaction. I don't think they will get any more slots for the foreseeable future, although I hope they apply--- to enjoy reading the comments about that in the docket.  
 
spiritair97
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:45 pm

I thought NK sold its slots to WN? Either way, I think WN or B6 could possibly maybe pick these up,
 
sdoyon
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 6):
I thought NK sold its slots to WN?

Spirit sold 2 of their 3 slot pairs to WN. AIR21 are not allowed to be sold, so that 1 slot pair (which NK was using for FLL) was returned to the DOT.
 
mikefrommke
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 5):
I don't think F9 really can apply. They just sold DCA slots to US Airways and didn't even get government approval for the transaction. I don't think they will get any more slots for the foreseeable future, although I hope they apply--- to enjoy reading the comments about that in the docket.

F9 did not own those slots, Republic did. And as far as I know they are still under Republic ownership, just flying under US's banner now.

I'd expect F9 to apply, but no idea where to.
 
klwright69
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:43 pm

I would love to see F9 reapply for COS-DCA. The Colorado Springs area is not a large city, but communities without service and smaller communities are considered. But there is a lot of military and high tech and non profits in the Springs. People from south metro DEN can also travel to COS.

Would love to see it happen. It didn't win last time. Maybe this time.
 
sdoyon
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 9):
Would love to see it happen. It didn't win last time. Maybe this time.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but DCA-COS is ~1500 miles, and this AIR21 slot is specifically for sub-1,250 mile routes. Maybe they'll reapply for DCA-SDF? Maybe DCA-Florida?
 
wedgetail737
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:43 pm

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 2):
As for other carriers who, at a quick glance, look like they have less than 40 slots (AC, AS, B6, F9, SY, VX) I think all except AS and VX will make bids.

Although it doesn't fit with the criteria listed, I can still see AS trying the SAN-DCA flights again.
 
SANFan
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 11):
Although it doesn't fit with the criteria listed, I can still see AS trying the SAN-DCA flights again.

I totally agree. Next time the DOT opens another Beyond-Perimeter hearing, I hope (and expect) to see that happen.

bb
 
md3
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 11):
Although it doesn't fit with the criteria listed, I can still see AS trying the SAN-DCA flights again.

While there's nothing keeping them from using their resources to complete a hopeless application, AS wouldn't waste their time. They know this is not a perimeter-exempt slot pair.

The next time the beyond perimeter slots are up for bid though, I'm sure we'll see an AS application, and I'll be supporting them.
 
ouboy79
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 2):
We'll definitely see something from WN/FL...maybe the return of the DCA-OKC application?

It would be logical that they would resubmit the application again. It was pretty much a no-brainer the last time, but was going up against retaining existing service. The only other competition was F9 to SDF which didn't seem to get much respect.

I'm hopeful we'll see the OKC application back, but sometime tells me they might just try for something else instead.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Air-21

Excuse my ignorance....but why do they call it "Air-21"??

Quoting enilria (Reply 5):
They just sold DCA slots to US Airways

That was not F9. That was Republic. F9 still has 3x DEN-DCA.

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 8):
I'd expect F9 to apply, but no idea where to.

I'd love to see an additional DEN-DCA slot for F9 making it 4x daily. But it is not within the 1,250 mile criteria.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
airliner371
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
I'd love to see an additional DEN-DCA slot for F9 making it 4x daily. But it is not within the 1,250 mile criteria.

I think WN and UA would highly object to F9 ever getting more DCA-DEN.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 16):
I think WN and UA would highly object to F9 ever getting more DCA-DEN.

I don't care if WN objects. Tough. Let F9 apply for a 4th slot if they'd like.

UA on the other hand could use another DEN-DCA slot, too.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
LAXintl
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Excuse my ignorance....but why do they call it "Air-21"??

Nickname for the Congressional Wendell H. Ford Aviation Investment and Reform Act for the 21st Century.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
airliner371
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
I don't care if WN objects. Tough. Let F9 apply for a 4th slot if they'd like.

UA on the other hand could use another DEN-DCA slot, too.

They had the opportunity to apply for DEN last time and they didn't. Plus if the did apply, there is no way they would ever get it. WN or UA would without doubt object and win.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 19):
WN or UA would without doubt object and win.

Disagree.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
airliner371
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
Disagree.

I assume you disagree with WN and UA winning and not that they would object, so... How could F9 justify getting a fourth flight when UA has one and WN has none. (They can't)

[Edited 2012-11-14 10:15:43]
 
SANFan
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:07 pm

I hate to be a party-pooper here but this thread would be a lot more manageable and less cluttered if we would all -- and I include myself -- quit talking about any routes outside of the 1,250-mile perimeter; anything beyond that is irrelevant to the topic.

Just a suggestion...  

bb
 
AirframeAS
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 21):
I assume

Never assume. Its bad for you.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 21):
How could F9 justify getting a fourth flight when UA has one and WN has none. (They can't)

Have you looked at how FULL the F9 flights to DCA from DEN are these days? They are hardly non-rev-able anymore (which is not important)! That's how full they are. F9 can use a 4th somewhere in there. It is needed.

Call me anti-competitive and anti-WN but WN does not need a DEN-DCA. However, UA could use a 2nd slot.

DCA use to be one of the last great airports without WN presence/annoyance. It is sad to see that gone, IMO.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
airliner371
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):
Call me anti-competitive and anti-WN but WN does not need a DEN-DCA. However, UA could use a 2nd slot.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):
DCA use to be one of the last great airports without WN presence/annoyance. It is sad to see that gone, IMO.

Well based on what you just said they are right. I would say in this case especially you are letting your opinions get in the way of common sense. Because of this, lets move on and get back to topic of the in perimeter slot competition.

[Edited 2012-11-14 10:42:06]
 
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mariner
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 24):
Well based on what you just said they are right. I would say in this case especially you are letting your opinions get in the way of common sense.

That's a.net.

But I'm not sure why is is even being discussed in a "within perimeter" thread. DEN-DCA is beyond perimeter.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
sdoyon
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 25):
That's a.net.

But I'm not sure why is is even being discussed in a "within perimeter" thread. DEN-DCA is beyond perimeter.

  

I'm curious to see B6's plans, especially since they've been in growth mode in DCA over the past year.
 
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enilria
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 8):
F9 did not own those slots, Republic did. And as far as I know they are still under Republic ownership, just flying under US's banner now.

Republic and Frontier are the same company. There is no effective distinction. You are incorrect. The DCA slots were sold to US Airways. BB said just that in the Q+A section of the just completed quarterly call. Since they were sold to the dominant carrier at DCA it should have required DOT/DOJ review based on precedent, but is appears they just did it. There was no review requested. There are no public comments from any of the parties stating that it was reviewed or approved. Nevertheless, the slots are now the property of US Airways. Apparently it was necessary for RJET to sell the slots to encourage US Airways to take back some of their E190s.
 
plateman
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):
Have you looked at how FULL the F9 flights to DCA from DEN are these days? They are hardly non-rev-able anymore (which is not important)! That's how full they are. F9 can use a 4th somewhere in there. It is needed.

Flew that on a middle of day in middle of month during no holiday ... both ways, 99% full.
"Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
 
AirframeAS
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
You are incorrect.

No, I'm not. The slots you speak of were never Frontier's to begin with. They were Republic's and/or Midwest's.

The only DCA slots that Frontier had before Republic ever came onto the property was the DEN-DCA 3x slots.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
flyiguy
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:37 pm

I can see WN trying DCA-HOU or DCA-OKC

Fly
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mariner
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
Republic and Frontier are the same company. There is no effective distinction.

At the very least, there is the distinction of the separate AOC's. It is on this distinction that Airtran/Southwest has based it's entirely proper application for DEN-SJD.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29):
The only DCA slots that Frontier had before Republic ever came onto the property was the DEN-DCA 3x slots.

That remains the case. Frontier does not have any within perimeter DCA slots assigned to its AOC.

To try and get this thread back on-topic, I have no idea if Frontier will apply for these within perimeter slots, partly because of the constrained fleet - although that may change in the near future.

Nor can I think where it would apply for. The obvious one - DCA-MCO - has too much competition, but I guess there may be a couple of mid-western cities that merit the service - BMI, perhaps?

mariner
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AirframeAS
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):

Why not DCA-PHF (Newport News)?? Or has that already been tried? F9 could jump on that.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
SANFan
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:05 pm

Hey everyone, Branson (whatever the heck their code is) is inside the perimeter! Problem solved...

  

bb
 
flyiguy
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 33):

BKG
The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
 
SouthernDC9
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 26):
I'm curious to see B6's plans, especially since they've been in growth mode in DCA over the past year.


Where in the world on their current route map would B6 fly to though that meets these criteria? Spirit was using it for FLL (presumably approved based on the pricing/monopoly factors) so I suppose B6 could propose something similar to one of their FL cities (not FLL at this point) or to what, New Orleans? (Since US is only airline on that route.) But I think service to a smaller city with no existing service would be more compelling...

Am I wrong to think that B6 is probably not going to start service to a new city for the sole purpose of serving it from DCA?
What does AA/US merger mean for CLT/JFK/PHX/North America/Southern Hemisphere/God's Plan for the Universe
 
airliner371
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:11 pm

I'm interested to see if/what B6 applies for. What can they apply for that would make sense for them and be either a monopoly route or a route not currently being served.

WN will almost positively apply. F9 and B6 are the big questions, the rest are coin tosses. SY could do something small similar to there LAN flights, AC could apply but for what? I think we can also get rid of AS and VX or else we are up for a big surprise.

Completely my opinion:
Likely: WN
Unknown: B6, SY, F9
Leaning Unlikely: AC
Unlikely: AS, VX

The only other thing I can think of is if Allegiant wants to come in with one flight.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 32):
Why not DCA-PHF (Newport News)?? Or has that already been tried? F9 could jump on that.

On an Airbus that seems like way to much capacity.

[Edited 2012-11-14 12:24:42]
 
AirframeAS
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 36):
On an Airbus that seems like way to much capacity.

On a 1x daily A319, it would be fine. From military to military spots. Should do fine.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
airliner371
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:23 pm

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 35):
New Orleans

I could see WN going for that. I could see WN (if they are allowed to apply for multiple destinations) apply for MSY, HOU and OKC.
 
SouthernDC9
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:28 pm

Seems to me that WN to OKC (assuming they resubmit that proposal) is the front-runner, since WN lost out on the previous Air-21 slot competition because of a bit of a fluke (they were up against JAN which already had service that DL had dropped and that was picked up by knight-in-shining-armor US Airways, so rather than it just being a matter of rewarding service to a city the idea of taking service away from a city was in the mix, which had to have worked in JAN's favor). So this is a perfect opportunity to give a consolation prize of sorts to WN while also meeting most if not all of the criteria laid out for the Air-21 slots.
What does AA/US merger mean for CLT/JFK/PHX/North America/Southern Hemisphere/God's Plan for the Universe
 
flyby519
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 36):
I'm interested to see if/what B6 applies for. What can they apply for that would make sense for them and be either a monopoly route or a route not currently being served.

Im 100% sure B6 will at least submit an application for something. DCA-Florida is probably a good guess. Thoughts on DCA-ORD? DCA-DFW?
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sdoyon
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:47 pm

Remember:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
• Service to communities without existing nonstop air transportation to DCA.
• Service to smaller communities.

Places like IAH/HOU/DFW/ORD/MCO don't really meet most of the criteria.
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 41):
Places like IAH/HOU/DFW/ORD/MCO don't really meet most of the criteria.

Exactly. I think previous Air-21 slots have gone for service to places like JAN and LEX.
 
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enilria
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29):
Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
You are incorrect.
No, I'm not. The slots you speak of were never Frontier's to begin with. They were Republic's and/or Midwest's.
The only DCA slots that Frontier had before Republic ever came onto the property was the DEN-DCA 3x slots.
Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
Republic and Frontier are the same company. There is no effective distinction.

At the very least, there is the distinction of the separate AOC's.

Again, who cares? F9 is 100% owned by Republic. Everything that Frontier has is owned by Republic. "Frontier's" DCA slots are owned by Republic. That's not what I was even talking about, but since you bring it up...

"The slots you speak of were never Frontier's to begin with"
Frontier's slots are not Frontier's slots. All Frontier assets are owned by Republic just like Midwest was, which in turn is owned by the shareholders of Republic.

As for the separate AOC. Republic has a collection of AOCs for its various units. So what?

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 8):
as far as I know they are still under Republic ownership, just flying under US's banner now.

That is simply false as I said. The slots we are talking about, which are not the DEN slots, were sold by RJET to US Airways. It was discussed in the quarterly conference call. How clear do I have to make it?
 
SouthernDC9
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 38):
I could see WN (if they are allowed to apply for multiple destinations) apply for MSY, HOU and OKC.

Is HOU inside or outside the perimeter? (I could look this up but distances confuse me so this is probably better.)

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 42):
Exactly. I think previous Air-21 slots have gone for service to places like JAN and LEX.

But wasn't Spirit using the slot for FLL? Because that's not a small or underserved market at all - seems like that only met the bust-a-monopoly/bring-down-airfares criteria (and the limited incumbent air carrier factor)... three out of five ain't bad but it seems like the right bigger markets could be targeted. So - could limited incumbent carrier Sun Country propose n/s DCA-MSP service (no clever LAN stopover) to break DL's monopoly on that flight and offer lower fares?

[Edited 2012-11-14 13:29:58]
What does AA/US merger mean for CLT/JFK/PHX/North America/Southern Hemisphere/God's Plan for the Universe
 
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mariner
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 43):
As for the separate AOC. Republic has a collection of AOCs for its various units. So what?

The slots are attached to the AOC.

When separation happens, Frontier will take its beyond perimeter slots with it - Republic cannot keep them nor reassign them. I've no idea what will happen to the within perimeter Republic slots that Frontier has been using.

mariner

[Edited 2012-11-14 13:49:29]
aeternum nauta
 
AirframeAS
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 43):
Again, who cares?

Obviously, you do, since you are commenting on it.   

Quoting enilria (Reply 43):
"Frontier's" DCA slots are owned by Republic.

Frontier's DCA slots are owned by Frontier who just happens to be owned by Republic. Frontier never owned any other slots outside the DEN-DCA slots. Now if the company is sold off to someone else, the slots remain with Frontier.

Quoting enilria (Reply 43):
Frontier's slots are not Frontier's slots.

The DEN-DCA slot, yes they are.

Quoting enilria (Reply 43):
So what?

If this issue bothers you so much, then why did you comment on it and then attack me for it?

And I was never incorrect.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 37):
On a 1x daily A319, it would be fine. From military to military spots. Should do fine.

The problem with this route is just no real market. It's not that long of a drive...though traffic on that stretch can be tough.

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 44):
So - could limited incumbent carrier Sun Country propose n/s DCA-MSP service (no clever LAN stopover) to break DL's monopoly on that flight and offer lower fares?

They could and would have a decent case. I fully expect SY to bid for MSP.

Not all Air-21 slots are created equal. The slots that were used for LEX and JAN were specifically required to be used for small markets. The slots that NK had and used to FLL did not have that requirement on them, however smaller communities are still a scoring factor as increasing overall access to DCA is a goal. NK won FLL even though FLL was not small and was not unserved (US already flew it at the time and still does).
 
AirframeAS
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 47):
It's not that long of a drive..

I know this is off topic but how long of a drive is it?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
sdoyon
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RE: DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 48):
I know this is off topic but how long of a drive is it?

Google Maps says 3 hours, but they're notorious for over estimating.

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