LAXintl
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US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:18 pm

The US House of Representatives following a unanimous vote in the US Senate, yesterday passed legislation which would provide exemptions for US air carriers from participating in EU ETS regulations.

The bipartisan legislation know as the Thune-McCaskill European Union Emissions Trading Scheme Prohibition Act, mandates the US DOT to determine within 30-days the negative impact of participation in any EU ETS scheme on U.S. consumers, carriers, and operators, along with the economic, energy and environmental security of the US to help determine if the participation prohibition would be in the "public interest".

The DOT itself has strongly objected on legal and policy grounds to EU ETS and was supportive of Congressional action.

The bill now heads to the President for signature.

Stories:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/alpa-a...uds-u-house-passage-233300375.html
http://www.europolitics.info/externa...anti-eu-ets-bill-art345046-44.html

=
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moo
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:33 pm

Reading the stories and the bill, this is *not* an exemption at all - its the authority to prohibit US airlines from partaking in the ETS, which doesn't solve the issue at all but rather puts the airlines in an extremely difficult position.

Aside from the situation with the ETS being "suspended" for a year for external airlines this week, all this bill is doing is basically trying to use domestic law to trump foreign law in its own jurisdiction, and basically forces the airlines to consider stopping flying to Europe - if they can't take part in the ETS, and the EU don't grant a permanent exemption, then US airlines cannot fly there due to the threat of punitive action from their own government.
 
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CARST
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:59 pm

Perhaps the US-airlines continue flying to Europe and just pay whatever they have to pay for partaking in the ETS. It might be more economical for them to pay ETS fee and the "partaking in the ETS system fee" compared to parking a huge number of aircraft.

I would really like to see that happen, it would be another excellent example of politicians messing up a situation that is none of their business, in this case decisions of foreign politicians. If ETS is a good thing or not and if it is acceptable to extend it to the airline industry is total different discussion and not the business of any US-American politician, especially because the system is fair and everyone has to pay the same amount regarding the sector lengths.


Too bad the EU stopped ETS for international flights outside the EU airspace today to wait for ICAO to implement their new system. It would have been a funny situation if the first US airline had to pay for flying to Europe and paying the ETS fee. That would have made the "Thune-McCaskill European Union Emissions Trading Scheme Prohibition Act" a good source of income for the US government and would have reduced the number of flying passengers even more. Can you imagine the outcry from airlines and media? Good to know that the politicians are as stupid over there as on our side of the Atlantic.
 
LAXintl
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:05 pm

Actually its semantics.

The bill once enacted by the DOT would provide US airlines a legal "exemption" from participating in EU ETS.

This is something the US airlines have been asking for, and gives them the legal cover to stand behind.

The DOT previously had said they would "vigorously oppose" the implementation of the ETS, and this Congressional action gives it the added legal authority.
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CARST
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:17 pm

No, they still have to pay or they are not allowed to Europe. They are just lucky now, that ETS was suspended to wait for ICAO to act.
 
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moo
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
The bill once enacted by the DOT would provide US airlines a legal "exemption" from participating in EU ETS.

US legal exemptions do not have any standing in foreign countries tho - the EU would simply allow them to run up debts and then threaten to seize assets as payment. There is no legal requirement for the EU to accept the DOT "exemption", as its in a completely different jurisdiction.

The only way in which US airlines can comply is by not flying to the EU.
 
UALWN
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:30 pm

This only makes it clear that the US government will side with the US airlines if and when there is a dispute with the EU concerning ETS. But certainly it doesn't "exempt" the US airlines from complying with ETS...
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LAXintl
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 5):
US legal exemptions do not have any standing in foreign countries

Certainly, but like many home country regulations it allows US airlines to be first bound by US regulations which presumably based on final DOT findings will not allow US airlines to participate in European ETS scheme.
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moo
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:39 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Certainly, but like many home country regulations it allows US airlines to be first bound by US regulations which presumably based on final DOT findings will not allow US airlines to participate in European ETS scheme.

Yes, but that has no legal standing in other countries - the only solution is to not fly to the country of issue.

This isn't the equivalent of a high school gym session, where a note from your parents will get you out of it - the only way to legally get out of it is to abstain from the jurisdiction altogether.
 
avek00
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 2):
I would really like to see that happen, it would be another excellent example of politicians messing up a situation that is none of their business, in this case decisions of foreign politicians. If ETS is a good thing or not and if it is acceptable to extend it to the airline industry is total different discussion and not the business of any US-American politician, especially because the system is fair and everyone has to pay the same amount regarding the sector lengths.

I disagree, this is a good example of American politicians standing up for legitimate American economic interests. The Europeans tried to impose their misguided will upon the entire world with the ETS scheme, and those countries with the economic might and imperative to stand up to the EU on this issue -- such as the USA and China -- have done so.
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LAXintl
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 8):
Yes, but that has no legal standing in other countries

By definition, US regulations don't have a standing in other countries, and frankly that is the same argument that EU ETS cannot tax for activities outside EU borders.

This act however provides guidance for the US industry that they don't need to continue play this game with EU governments and the US government will have their backs.

The EU is certainly free to impose what rules it decides inside member countries and US would need to comply to do business, but the notion of the EU dictating or measuring carbon output over the US, Canada, India, China or other nations is a rather bizarre notion and the center of the dispute.
Whats next - will EU seek to regulate power plants, or other industrial emissions in the US?
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sweair
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:07 pm

Maybe EU can get some income from all that road traffic in US too   I think EU went too far and got a bloodied nose, now they know the world is not to be provoked like that again.
 
Arrow
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
The bill once enacted by the DOT would provide US airlines a legal "exemption" from participating in EU ETS.

The US can't do anything to legally exempt anyone from complying with another country's laws when in (or over) that country. That's called Chutzpah -- which is par for the course for Congress of course; they do this stuff all the time.
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AirframeAS
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:14 pm

So, if US airlines stopped flying to Europe..... Are the European airlines still allowed to fly to the US because of this Act?
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CARST
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:54 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 13):
So, if US airlines stopped flying to Europe..... Are the European airlines still allowed to fly to the US because of this Act?

Why not? There is now law against the European airlines flying into the US, even if they participate in the ETS program. There is only a law now forbidding the US airlines paying the ETS fee creating a dilemma situation for them.


I am really shocked here seeing how many US-Americans really think decisions of their government have any influence on European or any other foreign law. If the US airlines want to fly to Europe they can either pay the ETS fees or ground their aircraft. Good job by the politicians. Not.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):

If the US airlines are not allowed to fly to Europe because of this Act, then the European airlines flying to the U.S. should not be allowed either...........

Seems fair to me.
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CARST
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
If the US airlines are not allowed to fly to Europe because of this Act, then the European airlines flying to the U.S. should not be allowed either...........

Seems fair to me.

But that is not what the law is saying. That would need another law, which would never pass the Congress as it would financially destroy all European and US airlines.

And to get it right, the passed act is not forbidding the US airlines to fly to Europe, it is forbidding them to pay the ETS fees. But if they want to land in the EU, they have to pay the fee. This is called dilemma situation. If the EU wouldn't have changed the ETS concept yesterday the US airlines would have payed the ETS fee and the charge for paying the ETS fee to the US government.


You should see the ETS fees as an environmental landing fee. We are not complaining about other landing fees, too. Or high landing fees on US airports in the middle of the night for noise abating reasons.
 
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moo
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
By definition, US regulations don't have a standing in other countries, and frankly that is the same argument that EU ETS cannot tax for activities outside EU borders.

To do business in the EU, you are obliged to follow EU rules. The EU won't tax you if you never step foot in their jurisdiction, but once you do then you had better cover your obligations.

The fact that you took off, landed or otherwise did business in the EU is more than enough to give them legal authority to tax you for anything they wish.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 16):
But that is not what the law is saying.

Where did I say that? I never said it was saying that. I was stating an opinion. Again, an OPINION.

Quoting CARST (Reply 16):
That would need another law, which would never pass the Congress as it would financially destroy all European and US airlines.

You never know. Congress can pass laws however they like. And I'm sure they won't be afraid to pass a law on an OPINION that I had earlier. It wouldn't financially destroy anyone to death.
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moo
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 18):

Such a law would destroy the US at the WTO.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 19):
Such a law would destroy the US at the WTO.

I disagree. The WTO does not set laws for the USA. Only Congress can do that.
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moo
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):

The WTO sets the rules for international trade. Congress has to abide by international treaties as per your constitution. You voluntarily entered the WTO.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 21):

We can argue about this all day long.... U.S. can and will protect itself against unreasonable regulations if it harms self interests at home. I believe the Boeing-Airbus WTO fight proved this.
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Arrow
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
If the US airlines are not allowed to fly to Europe because of this Act, then the European airlines flying to the U.S. should not be allowed either...........

Now that's mature.

The EU has passed a law that applies to any airline flying to or over the EU. Does that sound familiar to Americans? The US also has laws that apply to any airline flying to or through the US. If you don't want to comply with US law, then don't fly to or over the US. If you don't want to comply with EU law, then don't fly to or through EU countries.

To me, both parties here are acting like bullies. Does anyone remember Helms-Burton? That is an American law that attempted to force foreign companies to comply with US law on relations with Cuba. It was a huge dilemma for private companies that deal with Cuba. Many countries, Canada included, passed specific legislation making it illegal for their citizens to comply with Helms-Burton (which is what it looks like the US is trying to do here).

For a more recent (and far more threatening) example of this, look at FATCA -- the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act passed in 2010 and signed by Obama. That is forcing all foreign banks to spend billions in order to help the IRS catch US tax evaders -- and if the banks don't go along with this the US will try to impose all manner of sanctions and penalties on those foreign banks. It is by far the most egregious extra-territorial reach the US has ever attempted. Fortunately, a number of countries are demanding reciprocity -- which means that American banks will also have to spend billions to track down (insert name of country) tax cheats with US bank accounts. My guess is that will be the end of FATCA because the US won't tolerate the reciprocity.

Bottom line here folks -- both the US and the EU are over-reaching with this. With the passage of this DOT legislation, we are now officially in pot-kettle-black territory. It would be good for the world if they could all grow up a little and behave like adults.
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sweair
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:38 pm

US would win a trade war with EU, just saying, lets not get too carried away. The ETS scheme was a blunder and we had to eat cake. China and US ganging up on EU, we caved in.
 
Maverick623
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 21):
The WTO sets the rules for international trade. Congress has to abide by international treaties as per your constitution. You voluntarily entered the WTO.

And Congress can just as easily leave the WTO and withdraw from the treaties that govern it.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 23):
To me, both parties here are acting like bullies.

Wow... so two governmental authorities standing up for their interests is bullying now?

The EU wanted to initiate the ETS to protect their environmental interests; everyone else boycotted it to protect their economic and other interests. How do governments protect their interests (without resorting to violence)? They pass laws.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 23):
It would be good for the world if they could all grow up a little and behave like adults.

So... the US should just shut up and do whatever the EU wants? That's kind of like saying the EU should shut up and do whatever the US wants.

It's quite telling though how you single out American legislation, and imply that those of us who are against ETS are for Helms-Burton and FATCA.

Quoting sweair (Reply 24):
US would win a trade war with EU, just saying, lets not get too carried away. The ETS scheme was a blunder and we had to eat cake.

  

And that's that. People complaining about how this was handled are reminded that wars have been started over lesser things.
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sweair
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):

If we start the count on lost business thanks to the ETS madness this sum would be scary for us europeans. EU has this superior attitude to the world, we know better what other nations and continets need or should believe in. It will come back and bite us in the rear until we learn  
 
Maverick623
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 26):

If we start the count on lost business thanks to the ETS madness this sum would be scary for us europeans. EU has this superior attitude to the world, we know better what other nations and continets need or should believe in. It will come back and bite us in the rear until we learn

To be fair, America does have it's own megalomania issue...
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Kaiarahi
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 19):
Such a law would destroy the US at the WTO.
Quoting moo (Reply 21):
The WTO sets the rules for international trade.

Air transportation is specifically exempted from the WTO's mandate and rules. The WTO has no jurisdiction.

Quoting CARST (Reply 16):
You should see the ETS fees as an environmental landing fee.

Except it's no such thing. It's calculated based on flight sector length, not landings.

Quoting moo (Reply 17):
The fact that you took off, landed or otherwise did business in the EU is more than enough to give them legal authority to tax you for anything they wish.

Not under international law.

Quoting CARST (Reply 2):
If ETS is a good thing or not and if it is acceptable to extend it to the airline industry is total different discussion and not the business of any US-American politician

You're missing the point. Sure, what is taxed within Europe is not within the jurisdiction of U.S. lawmakers. But ETS taxes emissions in the airspace of countries outside Europe and in international airspace, which is beyond the jurisdiction of E.U. lawmakers.

Quoting CARST (Reply 2):
Too bad the EU stopped ETS for international flights outside the EU airspace today to wait for ICAO to implement their new system.

They suspended it because they belatedly realized that EK are laughing all the way to the bank. EK flies much shorter sectors to DXB and then transfers pax onto untaxed sectors. European carriers are taxed on the entire international sector and pay much more than EK. ETS did EK a remarkable favour.

E.U. politicians should stick to regulating the acceptable curvature of a banana.

[Edited 2012-11-14 11:21:05]
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masseybrown
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 24):
China and US ganging up on EU, we caved in.

Wasn't Russia part of the gang, too?
 
AirframeAS
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 28):
Air transportation is specifically exempted from the WTO's mandate and rules. The WTO has no jurisdiction.

That is exactly what I thought originally, but was afraid to post that not knowing of my info was correct or not.
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sweair
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 28):
E.U. politicians should stick to regulating the acceptable curvature of a banana.

I agree, but they have even regulated cucumbers, making this world a much safer and better place..
 
135mech
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:33 pm

So, poitical pressure seems to have been sent across the pond...

"EU 'Suspends' ETS"
EU 'Suspends' ETS (by timboflier215 Nov 12 2012 in Civil Aviation)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20299388
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speedbird128
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:04 pm

Who would have thought the USA/China/Russia and other major emission producers would be against reducing emissions.. LoL.

And back on topic, it (the ETS) has not been "canned" but rather has been given to ICAO to deal with if I read into it right...
Time will tell how it pans out - but something has to be done about emissions control.
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RyanairGuru
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:36 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
U.S. can and will protect itself against unreasonable regulations if it harms self interests at home

I am trying to puzzle through this, but I honestly don't see how this harms US interests. All companies doing business with the EU are equally affected. It's not like US companies are taxed but foreign competitors aren't.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
And Congress can just as easily leave the WTO and withdraw from the treaties that govern it.

And just watch how fast the President will veto it. Not just this President, but any. It would be tantamount to commercial suicide for the USA. If it got to that then I have no doubt that the administration's attitude to the airlines would be suck it up, sure it's regrettable, but deal with it.
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Lufthansa
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
Why not? There is now law against the European airlines flying into the US, even if they participate in the ETS program. There is only a law now forbidding the US airlines paying the ETS fee creating a dilemma situation for them.

In the real world, of course if either US aircraft started getting seized or US airlines banned from European flights, you'd very quickly see European flights denied US access. There is no way in hell washington would sit back and do nothing. Anybody who believes that is kidding themselves. The EU might wave a big stick, but after something like this it is effectively saying "go on, I dare you to try enforce it.... because if you do, we're ready to fight back and you have just as much if not more to lose" The EU has lot enough jobs as it is, I can't see them wanting transatlantic trade grinding to a halt. And if they started seizing US aircraft you betcha BA and LH aircraft would quickly be out of American skies. They wont let it get to that. Washington has just basically shown its readiness to stand by its own carriers. Just like the Chinese did.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 34):
I honestly don't see how this harms US interests.

See above reply... #35 actually sums it up on how the U.S. will protect it's interests, no matter how silly it sounds.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:21 am

I'm not trying to debate the ETS either way, trying to stay objective, but is the ICAO really an enviornmental agency? I mean, I'm not implying that they are pro or "anti"-environment, but it just seems a little weird that an aviation agency would be involved in environmental matters, not matter how "worldly" they are
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aeroblogger
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:23 am

India passed a similar law a few months ago.

The EU isn't going to settle this issue with trade wars - there is critical mass in the opposition, with India, China, Russia, and the US all opposing.
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michman
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:28 am

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 33):

Who would have thought the USA/China/Russia and other major emission producers would be against reducing emissions.. LoL.

I'm all for reducing emissions where it can be achieved cost effectively. Namely, land and sea transportation, and power generation, etc. I just don't see any readily available technology that reduces aircraft emissions on anything more than a smallish incremental level at significant cost. Largely due to the unique weight restrictions and energy density requirements of airplanes. Sorry, I just don't believe we should treat all emissions the same. There are areas where it can be reduced cost effectively, and ones where it cannot.

[Edited 2012-11-14 16:29:01]
 
qf340500
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:30 am

Let them (the US legislation) pass as many laws as they wish against the rest of the world... and (ha ha ha) against something (the ETS) which has been suspended and will sure soon enough will be replaced by a UN emmission scheme against which the nice new US law can't do much either... bit late, mate...  
 
Lufthansa
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 40):
Let them (the US legislation) pass as many laws as they wish against the rest of the world... and (ha ha ha) against something (the ETS) which has been suspended and will sure soon enough will be replaced by a UN emmission scheme against which the nice new US law can't do much either... bit late, mate...  

Not so fast. Remember what happened at Copenhagen, when we got China the EU, Russia, India and the US and every other man and his dog? That's right, nobody could agree on a bloody thing and the chinese made sure as hell they weren't going to be agreeing to anything that might slightly disadvantage them. The most the EU can do is put some kind of massive departure tax on outgoing flights. Oh but wait. That's right they're already doing that! This move by the EU stank of colonial arrogance. There was no effort at all made to attempt to negotiate with other countries in any kind of diplomatic manner. They just forgot outside their own backyard, they had no way to enforce this. They too like it or not had to work with other countries and some of them might not take it very well that they are being dictated to. Pure and Simple. It's not the first time this has happened. Russia made a mockery of it a few years ago when it shut off gas pipelines to Europe after similar attempts were made to dictate to Russia how things should work. History has a funny way of repeating itself. I predict this will be no different.
 
qf340500
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:21 am

I agree with you, Lufthansa, thatswhy i think its good that the ICAO is now looking into it, as something must be done anyway, and if this is the case (the ICAO scheme) then the mentioned law by the US is worthless...
 
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par13del
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:46 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 16):
And to get it right, the passed act is not forbidding the US airlines to fly to Europe, it is forbidding them to pay the ETS fees.

Which in effect has the same effect since if the airlines do not pay, their a/c and operations can be legally affected in the EU.
This is the first shot of a salvo, if USA airlines use this and refuse to fly to the EU is there anyone who believes that the Government of the USA will simply sit by and watch all TATL traffic going to non-USA carriers?
Everything will be on the table, including the new Open Skies which is already on rocky ground since the administration offered promises on discussing cabotage which they cannot deliver on, any debate on cabotage in the USA is a dead issue before it even starts.

At this stage I have no idea how this will play out, what I wish would happen is for the EU to lift their one year suspension and let fly, the sooner this trading scheme is faced head on the quicker clarity will be provided, kicking cans down the road is getting tiresome.
 
Maverick623
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:53 am

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 33):
Who would have thought the USA/China/Russia and other major emission producers would be against reducing emissions.. LoL.


It's all about money, pure and simple. The EU wants to get at it, nobody wants to pay it.

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 33):

And back on topic, it (the ETS) has not been "canned" but rather has been given to ICAO to deal with if I read into it right...

Nope, it's been canned.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 34):
I am trying to puzzle through this, but I honestly don't see how this harms US interests. All companies doing business with the EU are equally affected. It's not like US companies are taxed but foreign competitors aren't.

The point is not the relative harm, but the absolute harm. It doesn't matter if everyone is paying, because the US is paying too.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 34):
It would be tantamount to commercial suicide for the USA.

Right... because the US doesn't provide anything to the outside world. Who needs the pesky Dollar, anyways?

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 40):
Let them (the US legislation) pass as many laws as they wish against the rest of the world.

  

All this "rest of the world" talk is ignorant and, frankly, offensive. I suppose China, Russia, and India don't count as the "rest of the world" either.

The EU is the ONLY agency calling for a program as broad as the ETS. And despite popular European belief, they do not control the UN or the world.

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 40):
and will sure soon enough will be replaced by a UN emmission scheme against which the nice new US law can't do much either

Nope, the US will just use its veto power to shut down the UN... if China and Russia don't do it first.

[Edited 2012-11-24 15:24:21 by MCIGuy]
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prebennorholm
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:02 am

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 33):
...it (the ETS) has not been "canned" but rather has been given to ICAO to deal with...

That's the same thing, canned or given to ICAO.

It's the EU way to put their failures under the rug - to leave it to another organization to which the issue doesn't belong. Then the EU can put ETS on the agenda at annual ICAO conferences for eternity and send armies or delegates to ICAO conferences at sunny places to talk ETS. While non-EU delegates take a break in the bar.

Don't worry. ETS outside the EU is dead. But some EU politicians just refuse to accept they made a bummer.

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 33):
... - but something has to be done about emissions control.

That's an entirely different thing. Emission control is about denying (some) people to fly. Or denying people to fly more than X miles/yr. Or to subsidise RR making more efficient engine. Or other such things. Like for instance "stealing" food out of the mouth of hungry third world citizens an make it into expensive biofuel (the way we do it on the road).

ETS is about tax. No more, no less.
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qf340500
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:49 am

and what about the ridiculous "rules" the US puts on the rest of the world, to correct myself: everyone outside the US, when it comes to financials (FATCA), data privacy etc??? ha ha ha
 
Maverick623
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:12 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 46):
and what about the ridiculous "rules" the US puts on the rest of the world, to correct myself: everyone outside the US, when it comes to financials (FATCA), data privacy etc??? ha ha ha

They're ridiculous... but that's not the point of the thread.

What is relevant (and hypocritical) is that you can support the EU unilaterally imposing conditions on the rest of the world, but complain when the US does it.

What about that?
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
mohunk
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:23 am

Just charge the European carriers landing in the US a fee to cover the cost of the US carriers going to/from Europe, and give the collected money to the US carriers to cover their cost. WOW, talk about trade war starting! How badly would the EU carriers tank covering that cost--$310,000,000 per year!
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation

Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting mohunk (Reply 48):
Just charge the European carriers landing in the US a fee to cover the cost of the US carriers going to/from Europe, and give the collected money to the US carriers to cover their cost.

I was just about to post that as well.
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