gauravpai
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AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:22 pm

Hi all,

AirIndia was trying to sell 5 of their 777 aircraft and as they failed to receive bids for them have now changed apparent strategy

Their J cabins are being totally removed and a high density all economy 777 is planned, they will be used exclusively on high traffic Gulf routes.

Interesting way of getting profits up!

Also leads to another question, are there any other 777 mainline carriers in an all economy layout?

Cheers

Dr Gaurav Pai

Source. NDTV India
 
gauravpai
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:26 pm

Here's the official article from Ndtv , was trying to find it earlier

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ai...me-boeing-777-planes-source-293116

Cheers
 
na
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:31 pm

Seems the 77L faces the same fate as the A345. Pretty, but uneconomical, they are very hard to sell these days.Its at least two years now AI is trying to offload these planes, first for lease, than for sale.
So now they end up on the guest worker shuttle to the Emirates, plus the Hadj I would add. Will that work or will they just be run-down faster that way?
 
gauravpai
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:39 pm

Quoting na (Reply 2):

Yeah agree with the first line.

It should work given that the gulf flights are almost always packed to the rafters,hell on a certain flight to dxb even the jumps seat was used by a pax   

Let's hope this works for them at least ,
How dense would an all economy 777 be in terms of pax numbers?

Cheers
 
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frigatebird
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting na (Reply 2):

Well, if things go according to plan (ULH which was a hype 10 years ago, but proved to be less popular as expected), find an alternative. So, if costs are higher than other aircraft, use it on routes that yield more. SQ used it as an all J luxury long distance bus, EK used it on destinations people were prepared to pay a premium anyway, like Zurich or SEZ. Which pleases me mightily, I will go to SEZ in February, which means both EK's A380 and A345!   

Quoting gauravpai (Reply 3):
How dense would an all economy 777 be in terms of pax numbers?

I believe it is certified for a maximum of 440 passengers...   
146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
 
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gdg9
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting gauravpai (Thread starter):
AirIndia was trying to sell 5 of their 777 aircraft and as they failed to receive bids for them

EK had no interest?
@dfwtower
 
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Stitch
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:44 pm

Quoting na (Reply 2):
Seems the 77L faces the same fate as the A345. Pretty, but uneconomical, they are very hard to sell these days.

The 777-200LR is economical.

The reasons AI could not find a buyer is because their configuration is wrong for anyone but EK, so any potential customer would have to rip the entire cabin out and reconfigure it, which would be quite expensive. Add to that Air India wanting above market value pricing and they were not going to find any interested buyers.

Air India never should have had a First Class cabin and Business Class should have been 14 or 21 seats and then everything aft of Door 2 should have been Economy (probably at 10-abreast).
 
JOYA380B747
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:28 pm

It doesn't have to be intl for these refitted 77Ls, they can always, I mean ALWAYS fly these on top domestic routes like DEL-BOM, DEL-MAA, etc.
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
mogandoCI
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting gauravpai (Thread starter):
Their J cabins are being totally removed and a high density all economy 777 is planned, they will be used exclusively on high traffic Gulf routes.

440 pax 3-4-3 all Y on a 77L for 3 hour flights to Dubai ? What a waste of the airframe. They could do the same with a 777-200A.
 
Tupolev160
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:10 pm

I've flown one of those and remember the economy class seats being harder than in some buses + 10 abreast, not a pleasant experience under any circumstances, despite the plane being only 40% full (DEL-HKG). Catering was awful.
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CXB77L
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting na (Reply 2):
Seems the 77L faces the same fate as the A345. Pretty, but uneconomical

  

The 777-200LR is not uneconomical. The reason that they've been hard to move isn't because of the aircraft itself. Everybody that wants a 777-200LR already has one. Besides, them being ex-AI aircraft might be another factor.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
The 777-200LR is economical.

The reasons AI could not find a buyer is because their configuration is wrong for anyone but EK, so any potential customer would have to rip the entire cabin out and reconfigure it, which would be quite expensive. Add to that Air India wanting above market value pricing and they were not going to find any interested buyers.

Didn't know that AI were wanting above market price for them, but that'd be another reason why they're finding them impossible to sell.
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na
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 10):
The 777-200LR is not uneconomical.

AI surely says otherwise. And for anything other than the increasingly limited niche it was built for its an uneconomical plane for sure.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 10):
The reason that they've been hard to move isn't because of the aircraft itself. Everybody that wants a 777-200LR already has one.

Like the A345, as I said.
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting na (Reply 11):

AI surely says otherwise. And for anything other than the increasingly limited niche it was built for its an uneconomical plane for sure.

Its is economical, AI just dont know how to use them properly... I mean, who else complains about their 77Ls being uneconomical?

Quoting na (Reply 11):
Like the A345, as I said.

Well the 77L has sold more than the A345, plus its the platform used on the 777F which has a good amount of orders (127 currently according to the boeing website), which in my opinion, is pretty good for an "uneconomical aircraft".
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
Lufthansa
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:07 pm

Quoting na (Reply 11):
AI surely says otherwise. And for anything other than the increasingly limited niche it was built for its an uneconomical plane for sure.

Well maintenance record might have been an issue but anybody with GE powered 777s, especially anybody with 77W's shouldn't have had any issues with them. Delta for example does well out of Sydney with the type not because the extra range is needed but because it enables more cargo to be uploaded and i believe it is the same in shanghai.

United could use this bird well out of EWR to Asia. Obviously EK could have. Turkish might have found a fit for it. I don't think Air France or KLM have any routes that require the range but if the price was right it would fit straight in. But that is probably your real problem. If the price is right. The type's real advantage today now that ULH flights aren't economic, is the ability to uplift huge amounts of freight and not be weight restricted. This is why it works for Delta. Often this freight can be largely in one direction making dedicated freight aircraft uneconomical. Or, as in the case of LAX-SYD the aircraft is at the range envelope (think 744) so cargo is getting left behind for fuel to be uploaded. The problem is for flights up to about 12 or 13 hrs the 772ER can do the same thing just fine. It's just those few 14 hr type flights that are the issue, and not too many carriers have those.

They need to just cut their losses.
 
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 12):
Its is economical, AI just dont know how to use them properly... I mean, who else complains about their 77Ls being uneconomical?

     

A bad tradesman blames his tools. AI didn't know how to make money using the 777-200LR, so they blamed the aircraft. Perhaps they should never have ordered them in the first place.
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135mech
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting gauravpai (Thread starter):
Also leads to another question, are there any other 777 mainline carriers in an all economy layout?

In 2005, I flew on an ANA 773 in all economy between Naha and Tokyo! LOTS of seats!

135Mech
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Lufthansa
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting 135mech (Reply 15):
In 2005, I flew on an ANA 773 in all economy between Naha and Tokyo! LOTS of seats!

yes but that is the lowest gross weight version and it was selected exactly for that reason, capacity. In the AI case, they should have got the 77A if this was the game they wanted to play. Or better still the 333. lets be honest. AI is a bit of a basket case.
 
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Stitch
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:31 pm

Quoting na (Reply 11):
AI surely says otherwise.

The 777-200LR was uneconomical for AI, but that was because AI configured them improperly with a significant premium cabin and failed to generate the proper return from that configuration by giving away most of the premium seats.
 
na
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
A bad tradesman blames his tools. AI didn't know how to make money using the 777-200LR, so they blamed the aircraft.

I fully agree with you there.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
Perhaps they should never have ordered them in the first place.

Absolutely. The 772ER or A330-300E would have surely worked better for them.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 12):
Well the 77L has sold more than the A345, plus its the platform used on the 777F which has a good amount of orders (127 currently according to the boeing website), which in my opinion, is pretty good for an "uneconomical aircraft".

Its totally wrong to include the freighter in this discussion.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 12):
Its is economical, AI just dont know how to use them properly

I didnt say anything else, so no reason for a reply insinuating something what I didnt say. I dont deny the 77L (like the A345 on its slightly shorter and even smaller niche) is fine on the routes it was built for. See my post above. But if those routes are slashed, its an uneconomical plane. Not only for AI.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 8):
440 pax 3-4-3 all Y on a 77L for 3 hour flights to Dubai ? What a waste of the airframe. They could do the same with a 777-200A.

Yes, and 3-4-3 on a 777, how uncomfortable even compared to an old SV or PIA 743 flying similar routes.
 
135mech
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:43 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):
Quoting 135mech (Reply 15):
In 2005, I flew on an ANA 773 in all economy between Naha and Tokyo! LOTS of seats!


yes but that is the lowest gross weight version and it was selected exactly for that reason, capacity. In the AI case, they should have got the 77A if this was the game they wanted to play. Or better still the 333. lets be honest. AI is a bit of a basket case.

Yes, but I was simply responding to that part of the original post. ANA and JAL both loved their large domestic configurations for a very long time, hence the 744D's for both companies. LOVED seeing 744's and 772's and 773's repeatedly flying in and out of Naha!

I completely agree about AI, they love the "point fingers and blame everyone else" and whine that they can't get what they wanted.

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Stitch
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting na (Reply 18):
Absolutely. The 772ER or A330-300E would have surely worked better for them.

A 777-200ER with the same configuration as the 777-200LR would have worked out even worse. The 777-200LR's aerodynamic and engine tweaks make it more efficient at missions beyond 2000nm than the 777-200ER.

As for the A330-300, it would likely have been a nightmare in the Air India configuration. The 8 First Class and 35 Business Class seats would have taken up a significant portion of the cabin and with the bulk of those seats being given away and not sold, the significantly smaller Economy Class cabin probably could not have hoped to generate the income necessary to cover the trip costs.

Plus, depending on the mission, the A330-300 might not have had the range to even operate it.
 
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:50 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 13):
The type's real advantage today now that ULH flights aren't economic, is the ability to uplift huge amounts of freight and not be weight restricted.

  

The 777-200LR is much, much more than a one trick pony.

Quoting na (Reply 18):
I didnt say anything else, so no reason for a reply insinuating something what I didnt say.

Yes, you did. You said,

Quoting na (Reply 11):
its an uneconomical plane for sure.

and that is what I take issue with, as it's clearly not. The only problem with AI's 777-200LRs is that AI doesn't know how to use them properly to maximise its advantage. The fact that they're now planning to use a high density configuration to use on short/medium haul routes is further evidence of their mismanagement. Unless they intend to stuff the belly full of cargo, using the 777-200LR on short missions is a staggering decision.
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MountainFlyer
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting na (Reply 11):
AI surely says otherwise. And for anything other than the increasingly limited niche it was built for its an uneconomical plane for sure.
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):
In the AI case, they should have got the 77A if this was the game they wanted to play.

It wasn't all that long ago that AI was complaining about 77A's being "gas guzzlers."

Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So. (by globalflyer777 Aug 21 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):

A bad tradesman blames his tools.

  
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Stitch
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:07 pm

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 22):
It wasn't all that long ago that AI was complaining about 77A's being "gas guzzlers."

No, they were complaining the 777-200LR were "gas guzzlers". And they do indeed drink deep.

Which is why you need to configure them properly...
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting na (Reply 18):

Its totally wrong to include the freighter in this discussion.

Fine, not that its much different other than the obvious...

Quoting na (Reply 18):
But if those routes are slashed, its an uneconomical plane. Not only for AI.

Well, how many of those routes were "slashed" because of the 77L by other airlines? As far as I know AI is the only airline who's complaining about the 77L.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 21):
The only problem with AI's 777-200LRs is that AI doesn't know how to use them properly to maximise its advantage. The fact that they're now planning to use a high density configuration to use on short/medium haul routes is further evidence of their mismanagement.

     
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
na
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 21):
Yes, you did. You said,

Quoting na (Reply 11):
its an uneconomical plane for sure.

Please stop insinuating and quoting only half of what I said.

I said:

Quoting na (Reply 11):
And for anything other than the increasingly limited niche it was built for its an uneconomical plane for sure.
 
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Stitch
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:32 pm

How many 777-200LR airframes are actually flying 14,000km or greater stage lengths - which is the "niche" it was built for.

If the answer is less than "all of them", then that's a pretty good sign that it's not an "uneconomical plane for sure" when flown on shorter stage lengths.
 
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gdg9
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
A bad tradesman blames his tools

Too right!
@dfwtower
 
MountainFlyer
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
No, they were complaining the 777-200LR were "gas guzzlers". And they do indeed drink deep.

Which is why you need to configure them properly...

My bad! Thanks for pointing that out. For some reason I saw "777-200" before and thought it was referring to the 77A.
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 12):
I mean, who else complains about their 77Ls being uneconomical?
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
A bad tradesman blames his tools. AI didn't know how to make money using the 777-200LR, so they blamed the aircraft.
Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 24):
As far as I know AI is the only airline who's complaining about the 77L.

The only market AI has cornered, is the whine market. AI has had a myriad of complaints about their aircraft, the threads are littered throughout A.net. Did AI forget to factor in take off conditions at BOM or DEL? Why is it that AI has had so many more issues than other carriers receiving the same aircraft types? I guess that is the $100,000 question.
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AT
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:40 pm

Talking of Air India's woes about the 77L, how is neighboring PIA fairing with its 77Ls ? How are they being utilized and do they have similar complaints with regard to it being uneconomical?

Also, currently Air India uses a 77W for the nonstops to New York. Are they weight restricted at all? If so, could using the 77L without weight restrictions help revenue? Especially if more cargo can be carried.

And if the airline is going to use them now in a high density configuration on Gulf routes, could they de-rate the engines since the full power is unlikely required on these routes? Would that help with costs?
 
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Stitch
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 30):
Talking of Air India's woes about the 77L, how is neighboring PIA fairing with its 77Ls ? How are they being utilized and do they have similar complaints with regard to it being uneconomical?

I don't recall any complaints.

PK's 777-200LRs are configured with 35 Business Class (same as AI) and 215 Economy (20 more than AI). They also have a 60-seat Premium Economy cabin. So overall, PA's 77Ls seat 72 more than AI.

I don't know what premium cabin loads out of Pakistan are in comparison to India, but I'd be willing to guess that those extra 70 (Premium) Economy seats don't hurt the operating economics.
 
brilondon
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:36 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):

Quoting na (Reply 11):
AI surely says otherwise.

The 777-200LR was uneconomical for AI, but that was because AI configured them improperly with a significant premium cabin and failed to generate the proper return from that configuration by giving away most of the premium seats.

AI is not the best in terms of management and that is the root problem at AI.

Quoting na (Reply 18):
Absolutely. The 772ER or A330-300E would have surely worked better for them

How would the 772ER be any better economically speaking than having the 77L. Does the 772 have better fuel burn than the 77L on the routes that AI uses them on?

Quoting na (Reply 18):
Yes, and 3-4-3 on a 777, how uncomfortable even compared to an old SV or PIA 743 flying similar routes.

The seats are not any more uncomfortable than the DC-10's seating arrangement. The extra seat in the row take up aisle space more than the narrowing of the seats themselves.
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Ronaldo747
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:50 pm

Don't want to be rude, but I think nobody want these 77L because they are AI frames. Their financial problems and other issues may raise doubts about the shape of the aircraft. The 77L is an economical aircraft, but as other said you have to use them properly.
 
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Stitch
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 33):
Don't want to be rude, but I think nobody want these 77L because they are AI frames. Their financial problems and other issues may raise doubts about the shape of the aircraft.

I'm pretty sure our members with ties / contacts with the Indian Aviation Industry have stated that the maintenance records for the planes are complete and up-to-date.
 
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:48 pm

Since we are discussing the quality of AI's maintenance and whether that would be a factor contributing to the lack of interest in the 77Ls, what sort of maintenance problems/areas would a potential buyer be concerned about, especially given that the LRs are pretty new and haven't needed to go through major cycles of maintenance thus far. Or is it mostly about the reliability / accuracy of the records.

How old are Air India's 777-200LRs anyway?
 
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Stitch
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:52 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 35):
How old are Air India's 777-200LRs anyway?

Delivered between 2007 and 2009 (though the 2007 birds sat at PAE for many, many months prior to actually being delivered).
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting na (Reply 18):
Absolutely. The 772ER or A330-300E would have surely worked better for them.

No. The 772LR is far superior to the 772ER in operating economics. It povides a massive increase in potential payload over almost any route you would use a 777 on to begin with.

The 772LR hasn't sold well for 3 reasons.

1. Boeing charging premium rates for 777 frames. Boeing has been milking the 777 line for very high margin sales. Contrast this to the 747 which for much of its life had the lowest margins of anything Boeing sold.

2. Loss of commonality with the 777-300 and 777-200ER. I don't know everything that changed, but the big jump in MTOW, new engines, and landing gear are the obvious ones that hide all the less obvious work in making a new generation plane out of the 777. So for an airline currently operating only 772ER, The 772LR not only costs millions more, but has its own type as far as parts and servicing are concerned. Which makes operating a just few more frames non-economical

3. The 777-300ER is simply better. For the same money you get a plane with the same operating economics cost side, but much higher revenue potential. Can haul more passengers and cargo. So if you buy a billion dollars of 777, you will make more profits with the 773ER than the 772LR. The LR only makes sense for a 773ER operator who has routes that are at the limit or beyond of the 773ER's range/payload chart. I guess you can make a very slight case for them when takeoff performance also is limiting the 773ERs performance.

I believe we will see #3 taking over airline fleet planning for future types, where a simple stretch larger capacity version of a plane steals 80%+ of the sales over its lifetime. I can't imagine the A358 taking even 20% of the sales out of the A358/A359 pair. I suspect if they make a A359ER out of the A351 it would also fail to take more than 20% of that pair. While the 788 and 789 goes beyond a simple stretch, I think the 788 will wither on the performance of the 789. The one plane that might make me a liar is the 781 with its range limitation, but hell there is an impressive number of A330 out there that Airbus sold that are "suffering" from that same range limitation.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 10):
sides, them being ex-AI aircraft might be another factor.
Quoting AT (Reply 35):
Since we are discussing the quality of AI's maintenance and whether that would be a factor contributing to the lack of interest in the 77Ls, what sort of maintenance problems/areas would a potential buyer be concerned about, especially given that the LRs are pretty new and haven't needed to go through major cycles of maintenance thus far. Or is it mostly about the reliability / accuracy of the records.

For some reason, AI = bad maintenance for a certain set of posters here (largely from a small section of Commonwealth countries - ironically, not including the UK - probably still stuck with an image of 1940s India). No idea why, since AI flies to the US and EU and meets all existing norms. AFAIK, they haven't had any problems of late - certainly no suspended safety licenses on account of poor maintenance.

I doubt it has anything to do with the material state of the aircraft. Probably got a lot more to do with the amount airlines are willing to pay to what they percieve to be a desparate buyer, combined with Government of India requirements/baliout package conditions that limit the ability of AI to sell these birds for anything other than a substantial amount of money.

Not that it'll end the mindless claims 
 
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:04 am

How could AI ever make money out of the 77Ls when they'd have Govt officials and the like having free seats on the premium cabins all the time. I'm surprised AI never tried selling off some of the 77Ws.

AI should just be done with this all economy, stop whining anymore, and save all our souls.   
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:30 am

Quoting gauravpai (Reply 3):
t should work given that the gulf flights are almost always packed to the rafters,hell on a certain flight to dxb even the jumps seat was used by a pax

Ideal time to start Air Kerala.....
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:06 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 12):
Well the 77L has sold more than the A345

That's hardly a ringing endorsement with a combined sales total of less than 90! Both are very much niche planes.
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
The reasons AI could not find a buyer is because their configuration is wrong for anyone but EK,

Normally another buyer will rip out the interior and install their own interior if its different anyway so thats not really an issue for a buyer.

Quoting na (Reply 2):
Seems the 77L faces the same fate as the A345. Pretty, but uneconomical

Its been said in the New Zealand Aviation Threads that the B772LR would be more better suited to NZs North American routes then the 200ER with the same config in the 200LR as in the 200ER
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Stitch
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:54 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 41):
That's hardly a ringing endorsement with a combined sales total of less than 90! Both are very much niche planes.

The 777-200LR's low sales are, IMO, due more to the fact that by the time it entered service, mostly everyone who wanted a long-haul 300-seat twin already had a 777-200ER. Almost all of the 777-200LR's operators were new 777 family customers and I expect they purchased the model because of it's greater efficiency on missions between 10,000 and 14,000km as opposed to it's ability to perform missions greater than 14,000km.


Quoting 777ER (Reply 42):
Normally another buyer will rip out the interior and install their own interior if its different anyway so thats not really an issue for a buyer.

The cost to replace that interior can very much be an issue to the buyer - especially at the price AI was demanding for the airframe.
 
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 42):
Normally another buyer will rip out the interior and install their own interior if its different anyway so thats not really an issue for a buyer.

Not every airline is well-endowed to pay to replace the entire interior. I remember Arik Air using KF 345s with unchanged interiors.
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:44 pm

If AI are saying the aircraft are not profitable why on earth did they buy them in the first place?
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Stitch
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting btblue (Reply 45):
If AI are saying the aircraft are not profitable why on earth did they buy them in the first place?

It has been said because Indian government bureaucrats and officials could indirectly make money off the deal.

[Edited 2012-11-20 09:51:11]
 
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting gauravpai (Thread starter):
Interesting way of getting profits up!

Cutting losses, anyway. Fact of the matter is that other carriers can and still do fly even 777-200A's profitably. The airplane is not the problem.

I wonder if they will go with a 10-abreast configuration.
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 29):
The only market AI has cornered, is the whine market.

  

Quoting gauravpai (Thread starter):
AirIndia was trying to sell 5 of their 777 aircraft and as they failed to receive bids for them have now changed apparent strategy

I believed they received interest, just not at rates they would consider.

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 5):
Quoting gauravpai (Thread starter):
AirIndia was trying to sell 5 of their 777 aircraft and as they failed to receive bids for them

EK had no interest?

With EK received numbers of high MTOW 77Ws that will free up North American 77Ls, why would they want to buy more? Almost the same trip cost and EK is able to fill the added seats. Oh, for a low enough price EK would have been interested. In general, EK is up-gauging.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
A bad tradesman blames his tools. AI didn't know how to make money using the 777-200LR, so they blamed the aircraft. Perhaps they should never have ordered them in the first place.

   Money can be made off the 77L.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
The 8 First Class and 35 Business Class seats would have taken up a significant portion of the cabin and with the bulk of those seats being given away and not sold, the significantly smaller Economy Class cabin probably could not have hoped to generate the income necessary to cover the trip costs.

Something needs to be done to stop the graft befor it handicaps India's economic growth. Its not just AI, but the whole system. AI suffers because of it though.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 47):
I wonder if they will go with a 10-abreast configuration.

Anything else would be silly.

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DocLightning
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RE: AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!

Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 48):
Anything else would be silly.

Not necessarily. AI needs to decide if replacing all the seats in the 777's is cost-effective vs. just pulling out F class and replacing it with more of the existing Y seats. If they do go 10Y, then they will need to replace every seat in every 777.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
The 777-200LR's low sales are, IMO, due more to the fact that by the time it entered service, mostly everyone who wanted a long-haul 300-seat twin already had a 777-200ER. Almost all of the 777-200LR's operators were new 777 family customers and I expect they purchased the model because of it's greater efficiency on missions between 10,000 and 14,000km as opposed to it's ability to perform missions greater than 14,000km.

The other thing is that offering the 77L was a no-brainer. They were developing the airframe for the 77F, anyway. The cabin is identical to the 772 cabin. The rest of the airframe is identical to the 77W with a few obvious differences. All the systems are identical. Basically, they took a 772 and bolted it onto a 77W wingbox. When you compare the money spent developing the 77L exclusively (i.e. not counting costs that would have existed anyway from designing the 77F and 77W), the it's about as close to "free" as you can get.
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