VC10er
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LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:03 am

Today I watched the 747-8 dedicated site on Lufthansa.com and by the way they talk about it, and all the footage and fly arounds and fly throughs, it would lead one to think it's the best choice for a jumbo bar-none!

Frankly they do a better job selling it than Boeing's site. With that kind of fan-fare from one of the world's most respected airlines...why aren't they selling? Lufthansa is reporting real life numbers supporting it's performance etc.

All I am aware of is the 25 orders from LH plus another 50 options, I think 16 for Korean and a few Asian carriers thinking about it.

I have read here all the "why's" it's the wrong plane and an old design...but not to LH!

So rather than bash it more (I have read enough of that) why is it so right?
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ZKSUJ
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:22 am

It's just right. Coz it's a 747   You don;t need any more explanation than that

I would love to see it in more airlines and even though it doesn't look too promising for the 748i at the moment, you never know what will happen. Fingers crossed we will see it sell well. Would love to see it in the colours of the likes of CX, NZ, KL, TG etc..
 
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Stitch
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:28 am

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
All I am aware of is the 25 orders from LH plus another 50 options, I think 16 for Korean and a few Asian carriers thinking about it.

LH has 20 orders and 20 options. KE and CA each have 5 and W3 has 2.



Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
So rather than bash it more (I have read enough of that) why is it so right?

It's right for LH because they have two types of routes: one with high-demand for both premium and tourist travel and one where premium demand is strong, but tourist is not as strong.

In the former, they send the A380-800 which has plenty of space for premium seating and plenty of space for tourist seating. In the latter, they send the 747-8 which, when configured for a heavy premium seating ratio, does not have as much space to offer for tourist seating.
 
EyeSky
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:37 am

Don't forget how slow out of the gate the 737 was. The program was nearly canceled several times and the whole thing was offered for sale at one point in the 70's. Much of this had to do with the enormous cost involved with Boeing developing new aircraft (757/767) and the overall bad economic conditions at the time. Today its the best selling single aisle twin out there.

True, unlike the 737 in the 70's the 747 is a mature airframe/program but I think the current world economy may be the key factor playing into many airlines holding back on ordering the 747-8i.
 
aloges
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:42 am

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 2):
And to actually request that people only post saying nice things about the 748i is borderline insanity.

Come on, we aren't talking to the world's biggest fan of the 764.   VC10er was just asking for some background info as opposed to the usual comments aimed at slow-selling aircraft.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
JHCRJ700
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:44 am

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 2):
The reason you have read a lot of negative comments about the 748I is because there isn’t a lot of positive things to say about it. And to actually request that people only post saying nice things about the 748i is borderline insanity.

If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all.

I just read a great article where the author flew on a Lufty A380 over to Germany and flew back on a 748 and compared the two. He liked the 748 better. Had nothing but great things to say about the passenger experience on the new plane. Hearing that Lufthansa likes them so much is awesome. Here's hoping for more orders.
RUSH
 
Cerecl
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:50 am

I think LH would be negligent if they do not publicise 748i. Clearly 748i suits their need very well and LH is happy about it.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
With that kind of fan-fare from one of the world's most respected airlines...why aren't they selling

There was/is lots of fan-fare about A380 from SQ, EK, QF etc, and I think we can all agree that one can't exactly say that A380 sold like hot cakes.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
All I am aware of is the 25 orders from LH plus another 50 options, I think 16 for Korean and a few Asian carriers thinking about it.

20 firm+20 options for LH, 5 for KE, 5 for CA. 2 for Arik Air, 9 Private.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
I have read here all the "why's" it's the wrong plane and an old design...but not to LH

For LH, it is clearly the right plane. However, just because it works for LH does not guarantee general acceptance. Unfortunately for 747-8i, most airlines that can make use of, as well as afford it have picked other types. One cannot really think of but a handful of airlines that may place sizable orders. With the prospect of 77X on the horizon, the long 748i go without new orders the less likely it will receive them.

[Edited 2012-11-16 18:03:28]
 
something
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:52 am

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
So rather than bash it more (I have read enough of that) why is it so right?

To get people like you to buy a ticket on it?
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
CM
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Today I watched the 747-8 dedicated site on Lufthansa.com and by the way they talk about it, and all the footage and fly arounds and fly throughs, it would lead one to think it's the best choice for a jumbo bar-none!

With the exception of cases where there is some real problem with an aircraft (or if we're talking about Al Bakar   ), operators are generally going to speak in glowing terms about any aircraft they own and operate. The main reason is an airline is a business and they naturally are inclined to promote their own product.

There is a second less obvious why an operator will generally heap praise on their own product, and it may be particularly relevant for LH and the 747-8i. LH has invested a great deal of capital into these new and very expensive assets. If the FMV (market value) of a 747-8i goes down, this will hurt LH's balance sheet. For an aircraft like the 748i (high purchase price and limited market size), this is a particular risk for LH. Since financiers are timid about investing in the 748i, this has the effect of depressing not only the sale price of the aircraft when Boeing tries to sell it, but it also depresses the market value of aircraft on order and currently held in inventory by LH. No business will stand by and watch their investment harmed when they could help reinforce it. Setting up a website to make the 747-8i look great costs LH very little and may actually have some influence on how the public, airlines and financiers view the product. It's just smart business.

In any case, it should not surprise us when we see an airline promoting their product. I truly try to not be too cynical about things, but I'd be hesitant to put any more stock in LH praising the 748i than I would put in any other kind of marketing about a product.
 
Newark727
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:11 am

In an effort to derail the imminent A v B flame war, I'm going to ask about configurations because I think someone brought it up earlier in the thread. It's not something I understand very well so bear with me. LH's 747-8i configuration seems to pretty much be "A380 with smaller economy cabin" based on number of seats. Which makes sense I guess if premium demand holds steadier than economy demand on the routes you're using the two types on. But if an airline were hypothetically operating the 747-8i in isolation, would you want to still set it up that way?
 
lhcvg
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:30 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 13):
In an effort to derail the imminent A v B flame war, I'm going to ask about configurations because I think someone brought it up earlier in the thread. It's not something I understand very well so bear with me. LH's 747-8i configuration seems to pretty much be "A380 with smaller economy cabin" based on number of seats. Which makes sense I guess if premium demand holds steadier than economy demand on the routes you're using the two types on. But if an airline were hypothetically operating the 747-8i in isolation, would you want to still set it up that way?

It depends on the airline. Airline A may be structured such that a premium-heavy 748i may well work for them; Airline B may just not need the full capacity of a 380 and the 748 is just right with a more balanced layout. Also, LH supposedly has a different 748 config coming for a few frames that I believe has less J space. If true, that would be interesting to see as well.
 
Newark727
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:52 am

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 15):

It depends on the airline. Airline A may be structured such that a premium-heavy 748i may well work for them; Airline B may just not need the full capacity of a 380 and the 748 is just right with a more balanced layout. Also, LH supposedly has a different 748 config coming for a few frames that I believe has less J space. If true, that would be interesting to see as well.

I guess what I'm getting at, slowly and in a confusing manner with many rewrites, is whether some frames are better suited to high-premium duty than others or if it just comes down to what works for the route and/or airline. I guess ULH pretty much demands a fair amount of premium because you really need to make the most money out of every seat given how much fuel you're bringing along but I can't think of any less specific examples.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:14 am

This moment is huge for LH's PR, MarCom, and Branding divisions.

The 748I EIS is LH's chance to capitalize on a great opportunity to portray LH as innovative, competitive, cutting edge, etc. And to LH's credit, they are. Assuming the 748I pax product is superb; it will be a unique offer compared to their TATL competitors. This is something the even most biased Airbus supporters must admit.

Whatever you think of the 748, it's still significant. Bottom line, at the highest level it's only between that and the A380. There aren't a whole lot of new VLA inaugurations... That alone speaks volumes...

Quoting CM (Reply 10):
With the exception of cases where there is some real problem with an aircraft (or if we're talking about Al Bakar   ), operators are generally going to speak in glowing terms about any aircraft they own and operate. The main reason is an airline is a business and they naturally are inclined to promote their own product.

Of course. But the LH 748I service entry will go far beyond the standard.

On another level, look at DL promote their second-hand MD-90 and 717 acquisitions. DL even commemorated the MD-88's 25th year of service on the company website:

http://blog.delta.com/2012/04/30/25-years-of-maddogs/

Well done.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 7):
the longer the 748i goes without new orders the less likely it will receive them.



Not as long as there are PIPs in the works. That keeps the door open for smaller add-ons and top-offs, if nothing else.

Quoting CM (Reply 10):
LH has invested a great deal of capital into these new and very expensive assets. If the FMV (market value) of a 747-8i goes down, this will hurt LH's balance sheet. For an aircraft like the 748i (high purchase price and limited market size), this is a particular risk for LH. Since financiers are timid about investing in the 748i, this has the effect of depressing not only the sale price of the aircraft when Boeing tries to sell it, but it also depresses the market value of aircraft on order and currently held in inventory by LH.

Yes and no. Yes, if the 748I flops, that will not help LH.

No, because LH can still get maximum benefit by operating the life out of the frames. LH may eventually be in a position where they'll commit long-term loyalty early. It will be in the airline's best interest to operate the type in sustainable numbers for the next 25-30 years. Getting your return on investment. This should be expected as it makes the most business sense.

A successful strategy employed by US legacies for years. Not a popular practice among some elite Asian or European airlines. But then again, COGS and SG&A were never strong points for SQ...  
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 13):

In an effort to derail the imminent A v B flame war,

I think you're jumping the gun here... There is no A vs B flame war. Not in this thread... not yet.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:26 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 15):
I guess ULH pretty much demands a fair amount of premium because you really need to make the most money out of every seat given how much fuel you're bringing along but I can't think of any less specific examples.

Remember, the 748I is not exclusive to ULH. Rather, it will need to find success in routes of 4,000-6,000 NM. Lots of TATL/TPAC, 8.5-12.5 hour flights.

The majority of the routes LH will operate the 748I on will not be classified as ULH.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
Newark727
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:31 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 17):

Remember, the 748I is not exclusive to ULH. Rather, it will need to find success in routes of 4,000-6,000 NM. Lots of TATL/TPAC, 8.5-12.5 hour flights.

The majority of the routes LH will operate the 748I on will not be classified as ULH.

That's just a for-instance, I wasn't really referring to the 747-8i specifically. Sorry I wasn't more clear.
 
Cerecl
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:47 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 16):
Not as long as there are PIPs in the works. That keeps the door open for smaller add-ons and top-offs, if nothing else.

I was thinking about orders from new operators. Sure existing operators may place add-on orders, but the program can really do with new 10+ plane orders.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:00 am

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 19):
I was thinking about orders from new operators.

I was too...I think with PIP mods in development, there's still a chance for a net-new operator. Like I said, add-on orders if nothing else.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
justloveplanes
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:43 am

Quoting JHCRJ700 (Reply 6):
I just read a great article where the author flew on a Lufty A380 over to Germany and flew back on a 748 and compared the two. He liked the 748 better. Had nothing but great things to say about the passenger experience on the new plane. Hearing that Lufthansa likes them so much is awesome. Here's hoping for more orders.

Do you have a link?
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:05 am

Well, I'm glad Lufthansa loves it. They're paying good amount of cash for it, so they better do.

I, personally, am glad it isn't selling. The sooner it dies, the better.

Here's to the 777-9X, the final nail in the jumbo jet's coffin. _/
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Flyingsottsman
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:44 am

I think there is a real chance that the 748i will get up and run, about a month ago I think there was some thread on here asking weather airlines like TG and MH are going to have trouble fitting their 380s on some of their routes I wounder how many 380 operators will have the same thoughts to, so this might be the chance for a 748i, I hope to see more and more of them, nothing better than seeing the 747 in any variant.
 
ka
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 9):
LH's 747-8i configuration seems to pretty much be "A380 with smaller economy cabin" based on number of seats.

...and soon reducing the number of C-class seats aboard the B748 in favour of more Y...

Ka.
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astuteman
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:55 pm

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Today I watched the 747-8 dedicated site on Lufthansa.com and by the way they talk about it, and all the footage and fly arounds and fly throughs, it would lead one to think it's the best choice for a jumbo bar-none!

To be fair, we've seen exactly the same when the A380 has entered service with a number of airlines including LH.

Their A380 newsletter doesn't exactly talk down the A380.

No matter. For me its great to see any 4-engined VLA being appreciated.   
Whilst they have to survive on thier economics, for me they bring to flying a majesty, elegance and romance that no twin aisle twin engine is ever going to achieve.
But that's just me  
Quoting CM (Reply 8):
In any case, it should not surprise us when we see an airline promoting their product

Agree

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 18):
I, personally, am glad it isn't selling. The sooner it dies, the better.

It will be a sad day

Rgds
 
something
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:33 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 19):

I think there is a real chance that the 748i will get up and run, about a month ago I think there was some thread on here asking weather airlines like TG and MH are going to have trouble fitting their 380s on some of their routes I wounder how many 380 operators will have the same thoughts to, so this might be the chance for a 748i, I hope to see more and more of them, nothing better than seeing the 747 in any variant.

As Tim Clark of Emirates has said.. the 748's problem isn't the A380, it's the 77W. If the 77W is too small, you can always fly another rotation or just leave the lower yielding passengers and cargo behind.

It is sad that it had to come to this.. the gorgeous 744 being replaced by something as uninspiring and boring as the 777. But economics dictate that even the 748 will not reverse this trend. The only two groups of airlines I can realistically see in the market for 748i's are airlines that a.) don't operate 77Ws or b.) receive 748s as compensation from Boeing.

South African could be a future customer. Iberia. ANA. United. El Al, TAM and Turkish. Delta and hadn't they stated their disinterest, possibly KLM.
Unless SA needs a quad, they will probably go for A350s. Same for IB. NH could well happen. UA too, but I find A380s more likely. LY could use A380s but they seem to love Boeing. JJ and TK will probably go A380. Infrastructure permitting, of course. DL will probably go for 77W but I sincerely hope to be proven wrong.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
CXB77L
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:40 pm

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Today I watched the 747-8 dedicated site on Lufthansa.com and by the way they talk about it, and all the footage and fly arounds and fly throughs, it would lead one to think it's the best choice for a jumbo bar-none!

Because it is  

But I agree with the people that say that this is nothing more than the airline advertising its product. SQ did the same with the A380, as it was the launch customer. Likewise, ANA is doing the same with the 787 to a lesser extent (I don't think it has a 787 mini-site, but seeing them paint "787" prominently on the forward fuselage, and reading the trip reports of its inaugural flight seem to point towards the fact that the airline are extremely proud of their new plane. And so they should.

Quoting something (Reply 22):
something as uninspiring and boring as the 777.

Wow. Really?  
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
art
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 18):
I, personally, am glad it isn't selling. The sooner it dies, the better.

Here's to the 777-9X, the final nail in the jumbo jet's coffin. _/

I get the message that if 748-i is successful there will be less incentive for Boeing to come up with a replacement. Any other types you would like to see failing in the market so that their replacements are brought forward?

Quoting CM (Reply 8):
With the exception of cases where there is some real problem with an aircraft (or if we're talking about Al Bakar ), operators are generally going to speak in glowing terms about any aircraft they own and operate. The main reason is an airline is a business and they naturally are inclined to promote their own product.

  
 
airbazar
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
So rather than bash it more (I have read enough of that) why is it so right?
Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):

It's right for LH because they have two types of routes: one with high-demand for both premium and tourist travel and one where premium demand is strong, but tourist is not as strong.

  
There's that. And then there are all those airports that LH operates to that are not A380 ready and in some cases won't be any time soon (DEL, BLR, BOS, LOS, GRU, etc...
Another factor is that there's nothing else between the A346 and the A380. The 77W as great as it is will be "old" soon, and the A351 is not going to be avaliable for quite some time. This one point pretty much explains why the 748i has sold so few frames.
 
trex8
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:52 pm

Quoting something (Reply 22):
South African could be a future customer. Iberia. ANA. United. El Al, TAM and Turkish. Delta and hadn't they stated their disinterest, possibly KLM.

Unless CI are downgauging a la UA to A359s which they have on order but have stated are A343/longer route A333 replacements (or eventually A35Js) they have 13 pax 744s to replace and 20 744Fs. While I could see them pick up some smaller freighters and not replace the 744Fs one for one, eventually they are likely to get 747-8s in some version or other. They missed the window with the 77W and just refurbed their older 744 cabins but by late this decade must replace the 744s. A few years ago there were some political impediments but these have been resolved now.
 
something
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 23):
Quoting something (Reply 22):
something as uninspiring and boring as the 777.

Wow. Really?

Yes, really. The 777 is a fantastic aircraft for airlines to have. But that's where my admiration for it ends. It is very noisy and rattly inside and it looks very, very boring on the outside. It's not more to me than an oversized A321.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 26):
Quoting something (Reply 22):
South African could be a future customer. Iberia. ANA. United. El Al, TAM and Turkish. Delta and hadn't they stated their disinterest, possibly KLM.

Unless CI are downgauging a la UA to A359s which they have on order but have stated are A343/longer route A333 replacements (or eventually A35Js) they have 13 pax 744s to replace and 20 744Fs. While I could see them pick up some smaller freighters and not replace the 744Fs one for one, eventually they are likely to get 747-8s in some version or other. They missed the window with the 77W and just refurbed their older 744 cabins but by late this decade must replace the 744s. A few years ago there were some political impediments but these have been resolved now.

I forgot about them, excellent example. An A359/748 combination would suit them as well as their livery those airplanes.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
Rara
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:12 pm

LH is trying sooo hard to market the 747-8 as something special, and they're failing. For passengers, it's just another jumbo jet. The A380, meanwhile, is still the star of the fleet. I was in FRA last week at the A pier, looking out of the window to the south, and there were both a 748 and an A380 on the taxiways. I was looking mostly at the new bird of course, but everyone else and their dog was oooing and ahhhing the A380. Kids went "look mom, there's the big double decker plane" etc., (at the A380 mind).

My boss, who's reasonably aviation-minded (strong passenger point of view though) flew the 748 from DEL last month and didn't even notice. Earlier in the year when we took the A380 to PEK together, it was a Big Thing and prompted him to tell colleagues about the inflight experience etc.

So I can see why LH tries to play it up as much as they can.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
skipness1E
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:38 pm

Am I the only one who notices that rather a lot of people are pleased that such a multi million pound order was based on how pretty it looks? Is this for real?
 
CXB77L
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting something (Reply 27):
Yes, really.

You missed my point. You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm just flabbergasted that another thread about the 747 has turned into a 777 bashing fest ...  
Quoting Rara (Reply 28):
LH is trying sooo hard to market the 747-8 as something special, and they're failing. For passengers, it's just another jumbo jet.

In a way, it is "just another jumbo jet", although it's the latest and greatest variant to date, fitted with LH's latest F and J product that not even the A380 has. I think LH could do more, to be honest, to market the 747-8. I remember reading a trip report here by PlaneHunter on an LH A380 sightseeing flight shortly after its introduction to the fleet, so perhaps LH could organise something similar, but on board the 747-8 this time?  
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
Alnicocunife
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:58 pm

Economics is what should drive aircraft purchase. If you (insert airline here) decide your aircraft type on any other factor than economics you will be doomed to fail; CASM and long term strategic planning.

Even as airlines select aircraft types, aircraft missions may change. Continental and Delta both bought B767-400 as domestic wide body replacements. Now their mission has changed (Europe from east coast, premium product) The aircraft is still a white elephant but one than makes good RASM/CASM numbers. Lufthansa will make money with the latest variant of B747 because they will work at finding the correct mission and RASM/CASM mix.
 
danielkandi
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:11 pm

The fact is, it's probably the most recognisable design of a major aircraft that even tourists can name. A jumbo. Even my mum who knows squat about aviation when I show her it, it's the beautiful jumbo. And I agree. comfy to fly on. Better than 10abreast on a 777, and less noisy if u think noise from engines. I hope it becomes strong, although I doubt it. It's to me SO iconic, that any major airline, who are ordering 20-30 777's, might as well order JUST at least one 748, to keep the legacy alive. Because although it's less profit, it's STILL profit, compared to a 744. So TK, KL and BA, like LH should keep it alive if you ask me. Just get a least one, for the sake of its look. gorgeous!
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BlueSky1976
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:25 pm

When your airline is flying a dozen or two 777s, it makes no sense whatsoever to order a single 747.
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JAAlbert
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:48 pm

From a passenger perspective, the cabin looks gorgeous with it's new sky interior and new windows and all. It's also interesting that LH's 748 economy seats are an astonishing 18.5 wide - wide for a 747. The economy seats in their 380s are only 17.2" wide - which I find surprising. My recollection was that most 380 operators were able to fit wider seats in the 380.

At any rate, I'd be thrilled to fly either - or both - jets. Anyone who'd like to treat me to a Lufthansa flight, feel free to contact me  
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting something (Reply 27):
Yes, really. The 777 is a fantastic aircraft for airlines to have. But that's where my admiration for it ends. It is very noisy and rattly inside and it looks very, very boring on the outside. It's not more to me than an oversized A321.

In my opinion and an experienced person in the industry, the 777 is the best airplane ever built, period. Until the 787 proves itself as being better, if it does, the 777 is best designed airplane ever. I sure as heck don't see the rattling noisy side to it (I sure remember how an A330 rattled and felt like it was going to fall apart on landing at BOM once though).

The 777-200LR and -300ER beat the competition in just about every way imaginable from economics to speed to range - you name it.

And it delivered on time, ready for full service out of the box. So both companies have a lot to learn from that in recent programs.
 
lhcvg
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 11):
I guess what I'm getting at, slowly and in a confusing manner with many rewrites, is whether some frames are better suited to high-premium duty than others or if it just comes down to what works for the route and/or airline. I guess ULH pretty much demands a fair amount of premium because you really need to make the most money out of every seat given how much fuel you're bringing along but I can't think of any less specific examples.

Ah, in that case yes, some frames are better suited to premium-heavy routes. Both the 747 and 380 are great in this respect because of the upper deck, and with the 747 the vaunted "private" F cabin in the nose. The stretched A340-600 and 77W variants are both good here as well IMHO. On the other end, the 757 is not well suited to doing much more than 24 domestic-style F seats or 16ish J seats, so there isn't much flexibility to do anything uber premium with it. As you go up the scale, flexibility improves especially as widebodies allow countless more seating possibilities than any narrowbody. But the aforementioned jumbos and the two largest twins are defiinitely well-suited to the role you describe if need be.
 
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flyingclrs727
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 34):
It's also interesting that LH's 748 economy seats are an astonishing 18.5 wide - wide for a 747. The economy seats in their 380s are only 17.2" wide

How did Boeing fit them in? Did they make the walls of the 747-8I thinner?
 
strfyr51
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:38 pm

we DON'T need to Bash the A380 to promote the 747-8i, The fact that the 747 series has been the Greatest in the skies for more than 40 years is enough. The 747-8i will make it;s OWN name and cut it's OWN Legacy.
After Air Force 1 becomes a new 747-8i either UAL or DAL will procure them and then it will be ON!
The A380 might be a fine airplane, But it's NOT the right airplane for the USA and any market in it. It has no real freighter capability so it's potential will be limited for the long term..
IMHO the airplane is a "Niche" player. Great for "status and prestige". Not so great on the Bottom line which I'd bet GOOD MONEY on a fact we shall come to see should the world's tensions arise any further.
We already KNOW what the 747 has done and CAN do.
To Date? the A380 hasn't proven anything more than some Problems as of yet..
This isn't a bash but a statement from a 29Yr Vet in commercial aviation.
I'm hoping the A380 might prove me wrong but right now? I doubt it!
 
bmacleod
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 1):
Would love to see it in the colours of the likes of CX, NZ, KL, TG etc..

I would love to see the 748i in those colors too, however....  

NZ has indicated more than a few times that the 77W (777-300ER) is really as big as they need.

CX indicated that the 77W and A350-1000s are replacing 744s.

KL sadly seems to be only focused on Airbus for 744 replacement...

TG already have the A380, don't see much room for the 748i.....
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Daysleeper
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 35):
In my opinion and an experienced person in the industry, the 777 is the best airplane ever built, period.

Considering your username and previous posts I assume that you have excluded all none-Boeing made aircraft on account of them not being made by Boeing. So with that criteria in mind, I actually agree – I think the 777 is perhaps the best aircraft Boeing has ever made.

Without the Boeing only limitation, I’d have to go with Concorde – Boring and predictable I know… but it did MACH 2…..

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 38):
After Air Force 1 becomes a new 747-8i either UAL or DAL will procure them and then it will be ON!

Someone stated in another thread recently that Air force One being a 748 would be equivalent to around 80 sales. I’m assuming they meant in terms of publicity gained, not actual cash income for Boeing. But even then I still don’t see it.

I mean do we honestly expect the average passenger to see AF1 on TV and think… Wow, I must book my next flight on a 748…. It’s nuts.
 
trex8
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 37):
How did Boeing fit them in? Did they make the walls of the 747-8I thinner?

Narrower aisles and arm rests?
 
UALWN
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:08 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 38):
we DON'T need to Bash the A380 to promote the 747-8i
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 38):
The A380 might be a fine airplane, But it's NOT the right airplane for the USA
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 38):
Great for "status and prestige". Not so great on the Bottom line which I'd bet GOOD MONEY on a fact we shall come to see should the world's tensions arise any further.
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 38):
the A380 hasn't proven anything more than some Problems as of yet..
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 38):
I'm hoping the A380 might prove me wrong but right now? I doubt it!

I love consistency.
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Newark727
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:53 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 39):
TG already have the A380, don't see much room for the 748i.....

Not saying that it will happen, but since when has that ever stopped them?   
 
trex8
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 43):
Quoting bmacleod (Reply 39):
TG already have the A380, don't see much room for the 748i.....

Not saying that it will happen, but since when has that ever stopped them?   

Nah, more likely they will pick up more A380s but with EA engines this time!  
 
VC10er
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:22 pm

First I want to thank everyone who prevented this thread from becoming an A vs B fight, I wrote my original post hoping to avoid that. I am not injecting my own like or dislike of the 747-8i, I was just curious that with all the posts for years on the new 747 being primarily negative, why those negatives didn't square with LH's passion for her and touting her performance thus far. Yes, she is beautiful to my eye, but my curiousoty was solely about the facts.

It didn't make sense that LH could be this happy about her and support it with facts but that airlines that seem similar to LH like BA and UA (for example) outright have said "no way" to the 748.

Last, I am not "borderline insane", more of a "novice" here to learn about aviation which I love, yes. For those of you who stepped in to my defense, thank you!

Total pretend here: if United had not committed to the A350, and had merged with CO before that purchase, do you think Smisek and his CO team would have gone for the 748? While UA's current 744's seem to be a headache for them now as they have grown old, history would
(probably) indicate that United's once large fleet of 747's had served them well? No?

Again, I am a 50 year old child here to better understand these decisions made by manufacturers and airlines.

[Edited 2012-11-17 12:34:51]
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ZKSUJ
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:27 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 39):

All noted and chances may be slim but airlines change their mind. Branson and his 4 engines for long haul, thats kinda out the window now. There was a time when NZ said nothing bigger than the DC10, ever... Hello 747. You get my point.
There are a few staff members who still believe in NZ that the 748i would still be a good fit thought I agree chances are slim.

Besides I personally would like the 748i because if they do eventually order them, it will be as a 777 replacement and by then I'll be high enough in the seniority list to fly them  
 
something
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 35):
In my opinion and an experienced person in the industry, the 777 is the best airplane ever built, period.

Generic statements are usually true.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 35):
I sure as heck don't see the rattling noisy side to it (I sure remember how an A330 rattled and felt like it was going to fall apart on landing at BOM once though).

Just as I thought I knew what the best airplane all around in the history of mankind was, you are telling me there are airlines that fly other airplanes than this unrivaled masterpiece of aviation? Could you think of any reason for this? It seems illogical.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 39):
KL sadly seems to be only focused on Airbus for 744 replacement...

Actually, they said that they could use A380s only on 6 routes or so but that they'd need 10 aircraft of the type to make it work for them. The 77W will be their 744 replacement. It's been left open why they can't reach sufficient economies of scale through their partner airline Air France.

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 37):
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 34):
It's also interesting that LH's 748 economy seats are an astonishing 18.5 wide - wide for a 747. The economy seats in their 380s are only 17.2" wide

How did Boeing fit them in? Did they make the walls of the 747-8I thinner?

Is it not also possible that the provided data is inaccurate? The A380's maximum cabin width is 6,54m on the maindeck, whereas the Boeing 748i has a 6,1m wide cabin. Both seat 10 abreast in economy. The cabin of the A380 is 44cm wider and yet, the seats are 38,1cm narrower?
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art
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting something (Reply 47):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 35):
In my opinion and an experienced person in the industry, the 777 is the best airplane ever built, period.

Generic statements are usually true.

What's generic about singling out the 777?

I have no idea what is the best airplane/aeroplane ever built but I do tend to think that DC3, Viscount, 707 were rather more impressive compared to the competition (IN THEIR DAY).

OK, if you are saying the best airplane ever, perhaps it is 777 (beats/beat everything else hands down in its segment). Or Concorde, albeit a different mission but far further ahead of the rest than 777 given that it had no competitors.
 
imiakhtar
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RE: LH Just Seems So Thrilled With Their 747-8i's

Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting something (Reply 47):
Is it not also possible that the provided data is inaccurate?


Business traveler gives a LH A380 seat width of 18 inches:

http://seatplans.businesstraveller.c...fthansa/seatplans/A380-800/classes

I've found that site to be more reliable than seatguru and others.
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