JOYA380B747
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AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:00 am

Based on today's news

AI may fly Dreamliner to San Francisco

Quote:
The state-owned Air India is working out a plan to fly from India to San Francisco, with a stopover in Singapore. It would deploy Dreamliner (Boeing 787) aircraft on the route. The plane is 25 per cent more fuel efficient than the Boeing 777 Air India currently uses to fly to New York. The Dreamliner can fly 10-14 hours at a stretch on the route.

Ajit Singh, civil aviation minister, told Business Standard, “We are considering going to San Francisco through the West Coast. We are weighing the option of a direct flight or we can use the Dreamliner to go via Singapore.”

My question is Why via SIN? Won't that increase the flight route immensely, considering the Dreamliner route will probably be from DEL.
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:04 am

My question is why at all?

Seems another sure way to lose $$, considering the amount of competition that already exists via Asia, Europe or the Middle East.

This airline seems to just have different ideas each day, without actually thinking them through.
 
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AirIndia
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:14 am

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Thread starter):
Ajit Singh, civil aviation minister, told Business Standard, “We are considering going to San Francisco through the West Coast.

Why is Ajit singh making thsese statementes. Shouldnt AI MD be the one making this?
 
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Polot
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:20 am

Can the 788 even fly SIN-SFO nonstop in a typical configuration with any meaningful payload?
 
airindia787
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:48 am

Considering that SQ couldn't make their SIN-LAX/EWR nonstops work, I don't see how this would work by any stretch of the imagination. I don't even think that the 788 would be able to make the route nonstop, especially the earlier, heavier ones.
 
PHX787
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:05 am

Quoting airindia787 (Reply 4):
Considering that SQ couldn't make their SIN-LAX/EWR nonstops work, I don't see how this would work by any stretch of the imagination. I don't even think that the 788 would be able to make the route nonstop, especially the earlier, heavier ones.

This is precisely where my eyebrows raise. It looks like a whole jumbled mess of a route.
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timpdx
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:13 am

Why on earth would they route that way? Even if you took the closest logical city to SIN like BLR or HYD to SFO, great circle route is 300 miles further for the SIN leg to SFO? Boggles the mind. DEL is even closer to SFO than BLR. If you need a tech stop to take a meaningful payload, then ICN or even TPE makes much much more sense. Then again, having been to India, there is plenty of things that make no sense there.
 
JOYA380B747
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:45 am

The things AI and Govt of India keep doing every now and then...      
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
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legacyins
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:54 am

If not SIN, what other transit city could they use. HKG, NRT, SEL, TPE? All these cities have 3-4 daily flights on them already. If they try through Europe. MUC, FRA are covered by UA&LH and LHR has 5 flights a day.

Or, should they just focus on getting their carrier back to a profitable and lean carrier.
 
ojas
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:56 am

I don't see this even a point of discussion.

A sound byte taken from Ajit Singh that AI is considering a destination and there you go ..... a full article on that.

AIs B788s cannot even do a SIN - SFO non stop without a significant payload restriction.
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bohica
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:19 am

Let's see here.   

According to Great Circle Mapper:
DEL-SFO 7706 Miles
SIN-SFO 8446 Miles

Why would AI want to make a stop in SIN which is further from SFO than DEL? This absolutely makes no sense to me.
 
JOYA380B747
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:33 am

Quoting ojas (Reply 9):
I don't see this even a point of discussion.

Other than to have a good laugh. When you put it that way most AI related threads are about something that makes no sense.
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
Asiaflyer
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:12 pm

Quoting bohica (Reply 10):
Why would AI want to make a stop in SIN which is further from SFO than DEL?

Does AI have freedom rights between SIN and SFO? If so I could see AI aiming for the Indian population both in SIN and California. AI is today codesharing on SQ to SFO so they must have a good idea about that route.
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jfk777
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:38 pm

Quoting bohica (Reply 10):
According to Great Circle Mapper:
DEL-SFO 7706 Miles
SIN-SFO 8446 Miles

Why would AI fly via Singapore to San Francisco when nonstop is more direct and shorter ? IF Singapore Airlines can't make Singapore to the USA nonstop work why would AI think it can ? IF putting a 787 on the route was all that is needed to make it work SIA would be doing it.
 
trex8
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
Why would AI fly via Singapore to San Francisco when nonstop is more direct and shorter ? IF Singapore Airlines can't make Singapore to the USA nonstop work why would AI think it can ? IF putting a 787 on the route was all that is needed to make it work SIA would be doing it.

Except that would be a new capital investment and SQ had already decided replacing the A345in their fleet with 77Ls was not economically viable given the depreciation on the A345s and capital costs for acquiring the 77L. The margins are paper thin if present at all and just changing the equipment even if the actual direct operating costs of the flight were lowered may still not be worth it in the long term.
Maybe there is enough traffic for AI on India to SIN and the codeshare with SQ from SIN to SFO will help. Look at BR and CI going to AMS from TPE via BKK. Something makes the numbers work to add 1200nm and 2 1/2 hr flight time!
 
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Stitch
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 2):
Why is Ajit singh making thsese statementes. Shouldnt AI MD be the one making this?

It appears that the GoI dictates AI operational policy.



Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
Why would AI fly via Singapore to San Francisco when nonstop is more direct and shorter?

Maybe the routing will be DEL-SIN-DEL-SFO.  
 
Nimish
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
Maybe the routing will be DEL-SIN-DEL-SFO.  

Absolutely spot on  !

I'm glad someone in AI/ GoI is thinking of SFO from DEL - highly overdue IMO. Of course it can't be via SIN - that is either the MoCA going nuts, or the reporter on a high.
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flyingalex
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:04 am

Quoting bohica (Reply 10):
Let's see here.

According to Great Circle Mapper:
DEL-SFO 7706 Miles
SIN-SFO 8446 Miles

Why would AI want to make a stop in SIN which is further from SFO than DEL? This absolutely makes no sense to me.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
Why would AI fly via Singapore to San Francisco when nonstop is more direct and shorter ? IF Singapore Airlines can't make Singapore to the USA nonstop work why would AI think it can ? IF putting a 787 on the route was all that is needed to make it work SIA would be doing it.

I'm not sure whether Air India (or any other airline for that mattter) can just fly the direct route. That part of China has significant operating restrictions because of the high terrain levels in the area (Basically, the problem is this: if you have a decompression, you cannot descend to a level low enough to allow for normal breathing without supplementary oxygen, because those levels are below the mountain peaks. Because of the sheer size of this area, you could be flying for an hour or more before you get a chance to descend low enough.). You either have to carry additional oxygen or just avoid the area entirely (most airlines go for the latter).

As a result, AI has two choice of routes for a nonstop to SFO:

The first backtracks to Afghanistan and then heads north, cross Kazakhstan and Siberia for a near-pole routing across the Arctic Ocean. The second option tracks east across Bangladesh and Myanmar, then clear across the lower-lying parts of China and up the Russian Far East for a North Pacific routing.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=del-sfo...-dac-kmg-she-sfo&MS=wls&MP=r&DU=mi

So DEL-SFO nonstop may be a lot longer and more complicated than you think.

If there are solid commercial reasons for flying via SIN (and the 787 can do SIN-SFO nonstop), it's not as bonkers as it seems at first glance.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 14):
Look at BR and CI going to AMS from TPE via BKK. Something makes the numbers work to add 1200nm and 2 1/2 hr flight time!

There is another reason why they fly that way though. Back in the bad old days, Taiwanese carriers were not allowed to fly through mainland Chinese airspace, so they had to detour around China. Back then, flying the Siberian route was not an option, so they went south via Thailand. Initially, the stops in Bangkok were just to take on fuel, but I'm sure by now they're so well established in the market that it's earning them a nice pile of money.

To this day, flights to/from third countries cannot cross directly between mainland Chinese airspace and Taiwanese airspace. They can fly in mainland airspace along the way, but they need to fly through "neutral" (so Hong Kong, Japanese or Philippine) airspace before crossing into Taipei FIR.

I recently flew FRA-TPE-FRA with CI, and these were our approximate routings:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=fra-tpe...-kmg-hkg-khh-tpe&MS=wls&MP=r&DU=mi

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=tpe-fra,+tpe-kix-khv-fra&MP=rect&DU=mi

The flight time on the return was 14 hours, 12 minutes!
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cedarjet
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:41 pm

There was an Indian carrier - Jet or Kingfisher - that flew from Bangalore (I think it was - IT capital) to SFO (Silicone Valley) via Shanghai and had fifth freedom rights on PVG-SFO, and this was in economic boom years for the planet, and they couldn't make it work (although I thought it would - and the choice of stopover, Shanghai, was a good one as PVG-SFO was either underserved or not served at all).

Air-India is a horrible joke, such a shame.
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TC957
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:41 pm

Perhaps routing via Moscow could work, given there is no Moscow - SFO direct with anyone.
 
jfk777
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 14):
Maybe there is enough traffic for AI on India to SIN and the codeshare with SQ from SIN to SFO will help

who in their right mind would fly Air India from Singapore to SFO when they have double daily flights on Singapore Air, with a stop. SQ with a stop beats AI ( even nonstop) any day of my year. Cathay also offers attractive connections via HKG.
 
airbazar
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Thread starter):
My question is Why via SIN? Won't that increase the flight route immensely, considering the Dreamliner route will probably be from DEL.

I know it's customary to bash AI but I don't find this to be too far fetched of an idea. The combined yields of the 2 sectors (DEL-SIN + SIN-SFO), could outweigh the yields on a DEL-SFO route which is not known for being a high yielding market. Taking adavntage of 5th freedom rights is a business model that has worked great for a certain airline based in SIN. Why in the world does SQ fly SIN-BCN-GRU which is 20% longer than SIN-JNB-GRU? could it be that they can make more money on BCN-GRU than on JNB-GRU?
 
mogandoCI
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 18):
There was an Indian carrier - Jet or Kingfisher - that flew from Bangalore (I think it was - IT capital) to SFO (Silicone Valley) via Shanghai and had fifth freedom rights on PVG-SFO, and this was in economic boom years for the planet, and they couldn't make it work (although I thought it would - and the choice of stopover, Shanghai, was a good one as PVG-SFO was either underserved or not served at all).

It was 9W doing BOM-PVG-SFO on 77W. 2 problems with that flight that led to its quick demise :

1. too big a plane on a brand new unproven route

2. should've established BOM-PVG before adding the 2nd leg.
 
JOYA380B747
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:27 pm

Recently AI got new rights for BCN and/or MAD I think. They should use that to do DEL-MAD/BCN-SFO (if they can get 5th freedom from Spain) rather than the immensely competitive SIN routing.

That would give a flight between Spain and SFO as well, a route that is surprisingly unserved currently by any non-stop.


Having said that, I recently came across AI codeshares on two SQ flights - SIN-SFO via ICN and HKG each. So if AI has had this codeshare for awhile, they must be making money on the India-SIN-SFO route, which makes a point for a direct link on the latter route, in my humble opinion.
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
airbazar
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:43 pm

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 23):
Recently AI got new rights for BCN and/or MAD I think. They should use that to do DEL-MAD/BCN-SFO (if they can get 5th freedom from Spain) rather than the immensely competitive SIN routing.

The yields on Spain-SFO would be way worse than SIN-SFO and IIRC the demand is highly seasonal too. On the other hand AI would be the only carrier operating SIN-SFO.
 
as739x
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 23):
That would give a flight between Spain and SFO as well, a route that is surprisingly unserved currently by any non-stop.

There is a reason it's unserved.
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legacyins
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 22):
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 18):
There was an Indian carrier - Jet or Kingfisher - that flew from Bangalore (I think it was - IT capital) to SFO (Silicone Valley) via Shanghai and had fifth freedom rights on PVG-SFO, and this was in economic boom years for the planet, and they couldn't make it work (although I thought it would - and the choice of stopover, Shanghai, was a good one as PVG-SFO was either underserved or not served at all).

It was 9W doing BOM-PVG-SFO on 77W. 2 problems with that flight that led to its quick demise :

1. too big a plane on a brand new unproven route

2. should've established BOM-PVG before adding the 2nd leg.


3. Horrible time arriving Into PVG. Arriving at 3AM is not an attractive time.
 
UA735WL
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:57 pm

Does anyone else think that this would be a better use for AI's 77Ls than the planned DEL(and other cities in India)-DXB? Not saying that this will become successful with the 77L but I think it is certainly better suited to the route than the 788...
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mham001
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:40 pm

It's interesting how this makes it sound as though they don't have a plan on how to use planes waiting to be delivered. Lenders like to see solid business plans.
 
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Stitch
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting UA735WL (Reply 27):
Does anyone else think that this would be a better use for AI's 77Ls than the planned DEL(and other cities in India)-DXB?

I would think so. Put in a light Business Class | heavy Economy Class configuration.
 
airbazar
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:23 pm

Quoting UA735WL (Reply 27):
Does anyone else think that this would be a better use for AI's 77Ls than the planned DEL(and other cities in India)-DXB? Not saying that this will become successful with the 77L but I think it is certainly better suited to the route than the 788...

I don't think so. The 77L is way too much capacity for SIN-SFO which like any ULH route would be a very thin route, especially so considering AI is not a member of any alliance.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 23):
Having said that, I recently came across AI codeshares on two SQ flights - SIN-SFO via ICN and HKG each. So if AI has had this codeshare for awhile, they must be making money on the India-SIN-SFO route, which makes a point for a direct link on the latter route, in my humble opinion.

  

A lot of people fly from India to the US West Coast via SIN and it's been that way for a long time......not saying that AI can make a success of that route, but it's not as bonkers as some on this thread make it look....of course, there are a lot of other factors to consider too.....
 
Viscount724
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:57 am

As already mentioned, it makes no sense. SIN-DEL-SFO is shorter than DEL-SIN-SFO.

DEL-SIN-SFO 9581 nm (43% further than nonstop DEL-SFO)
SIN-DEL-SFO 8938 nm

DEL-SFO 6697 nm
SIN-SFO 7340 nm
 
aeroblogger
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:27 am

While SFO was on the list of destinations AI/IX was studying in January (the others being DFW, FJR, IAD, JNB, LAX, MEL, NBO, RKT, SYD), flying via SIN seems exceedingly unlikely to me.

If DEL-SFO ever happens, I think a PEK, ICN, or NRT stop is far more likely. The route is unlikely to be attempted nonstop, which may be the idea which Ajit Singh was talking about, but as it happens, it appears that his knowledge of Asian geography is poor to say the least.

All in all, this whole thread is a total waste of space. Instead of taking soundbytes from clueless politicians caught unprepared, the media should be focusing on real news.

[Edited 2012-11-19 18:33:42]
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
 
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legacyins
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:55 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 33):
If DEL-SFO ever happens, I think a PEK, ICN, or NRT stop is far more likely.

But why would they want to route through those cities you mentioned where there are multiple flights per day. Granted, the vast majority of paxs would originate from DEL, for example, and "top off" at the transit airport(s).

When 9W flew through PVG, the Chinese gave them an awful time slot, 2AM, that turned a lot of people off. KIX or NGO has less competition but the fees are quite high.

This just a thought. a few months back, AI was talking with Dublin about a transit airport. A DEL-DUB-SFO route would be interesting as the Dublin authority and Bay Area business groups want a flight connecting the two cities.

[Edited 2012-11-19 19:59:11]
 
blrsea
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:03 am

Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 31):
A lot of people fly from India to the US West Coast via SIN and it's been that way for a long time......not saying that AI can make a success of that route, but it's not as bonkers as some on this thread make it look....of course, there are a lot of other factors to consider too.....

Yes, but SQ makes a stop in either Seoul or Hong Kong. SQ has just one non-stop SIN-LAX flight now on A345 (and even that might be ending soon I think). So it doesn't make sense for AI to fly SIN-SFO with one more stop in between.
 
ojas
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:22 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 34):
This just a thought. a few months back, AI was talking with Dublin about a transit airport. A DEL-DUB-SFO route would be interesting as the Dublin authority and Bay Area business groups want a flight connecting the two cities

AI was never interested in DUB, it was the Irish authorities lobbying with the Indian Govt for them to do so.
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usdcaguy
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:38 am

There is a problem serving India; people are not just going to DEL or BOM but also to BLR, HYD, MAA and a myriad of other cities within India. That waters down the value of nonstop service, as many people will still have to connect once in India to get to their final destination. I think it might be best for AI to try and do SFO-DEL nonstop with plentiful connections on either end or not at all. Not at all is probably more like it; with EK in SFO and UA/LH offering good connections over FRA, there is already enough service to that part of the world.
 
airbazar
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:37 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 35):
Yes, but SQ makes a stop in either Seoul or Hong Kong. SQ has just one non-stop SIN-LAX flight now on A345 (and even that might be ending soon I think). So it doesn't make sense for AI to fly SIN-SFO with one more stop in between.

It does make some sense actually. AI would be the only airlines flying SIN-SFO non-stop, a highly lucrative route which now requires a stop.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 37):
I think it might be best for AI to try and do SFO-DEL nonstop with plentiful connections on either end or not at all.

Maybe AI understands that the market between the US and India is low yield and a ULH route with low yield passengers will never work so they are looking for 5th freedom markets where they can make more money. The way I see it, they think they can make more money flying DEL-SIN+SIN-SFO than they can flying DEL-SFO. After all, SQ wanted to fly SYD-LAX not because they thought that people wanted to fly from Singapore to LA via SYD but because they thought they could make money flying SYD-LAX.
 
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting airindia787 (Reply 4):
Considering that SQ couldn't make their SIN-LAX/EWR nonstops work, I don't see how this would work by any stretch of the imagination. I don't even think that the 788 would be able to make the route nonstop, especially the earlier, heavier ones.

The 345 is a gas hog. Someone posted the numbers, SQ averaged ~70/100 on EWR. Considering SQ doesn't discount much, especially on premium tixs that isnt bad.
 
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Stitch
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 38):
AI would be the only airlines flying SIN-SFO non-stop, a highly lucrative route which now requires a stop.

Is it lucrative, however?

If it was, one would think AI would have put their three-class 777-200LRs on it already. Instead, they're going to pack them with Economy seats and run them back and forth to the Middle East as a "commuter shuttle" for workers.

I know IT was at least planning to fly the route with an A340-500 - did they ever launch it?
 
airbazar
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):
Is it lucrative, however?
If it was, one would think AI would have put their three-class 777-200LRs on it already

The volume may not be big enough for an ousider like AI. You can bet SQ would fight tooth and nail if AI decides to do this. And the LR as good as it is it's still not as good as the 788 for long thin routes.
 
incitatus
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RE: AI May Fly Dreamliner To SFO Via SIN

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 17):
So DEL-SFO nonstop may be a lot longer and more complicated than you think.



Though the routing you mentioned through Afghanistan is not bad.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 38):
Maybe AI understands that the market between the US and India

There is a good chance AI does not understand the market between Singapore and the US.
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