tonytifao
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AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:43 am

Everyone bashes AA MDs, being old, gas guzzlers, etc. I don't see why it's not said the same about DL MDs. Delta is actually acquiring while AA is slowly retiring. Is there much difference between the MDs fleet of these two airlines?
 
spiritair97
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:55 am

I can't really comment on the AA Mad Dawgs as I've never been on one, but I have been on several DL MD-88's and they have all been pretty nice. Clean, well-kept, nice interiors, WiFi, overall a pretty nice plane. I don't know if the same is to be said about the AA MD's, so I'll leave that up to somebody who has expereinced them. athough, from what I hear on A.net and see for myself, DL's MD's have a better maintenance reliability than AA's.
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:56 am

Part of it is philosophy... take on a lot of debt for new fuel efficient aircraft (spend money on aircraft) vs take on significantly less debt acquiring and upgrading cabins on fuel inefficient aircraft (spend money on fuel).

Part of it is brand... leading edge, advanced, modern vs conservative, second-hand, good enough will do

At the end of the day, excluding network, the strategy that pulls in the most revenue with best margins wins.
 
southwest737500
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:57 am

AA has Md82/83

AA simply can't make money with those planes they had to many and by the time they realized they needed newer efficient planes it was to late. Gotta love US has one of the most fuel efficient planes in the fleet
DL has md88/90 and soon to be 717

DL on the other hand is making money with and is acquiring more for a cheap cost which is enables then to generate more revenue.
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tonytifao
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:00 am

I fly both of them on a weekly basis, I'm fine with both airlines MDs, I just hear that AA can't make money with them, but like I said, DL keeps acquiring them, so they must e making money
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:08 am

I think the difference is in the types of MD aircraft that Delta is acquiring.

Where AA has the 280 MD-82 give or take, Delta is acquiring aircraft that are far more fuel efficient than AA's MDs.

Delta is acquiring MD-90's and 717s these are quite fuel efficient aircraft and very cheap to purchase so the cost is more about the maintenance. Verse the AA MD's which are not as fuel efficient and maintenance heavy.

Having both is a problem, having just one is workable.

The other thing to remember is that airlines aren't just looking for a profit in part it is the whole picture. AA's MDs, might actually be making money for AA even though the margins might be very small. Mix that with revenue issues in other areas and you have a loss.

At the end of the day, I don't think that AA MDs are the problem, I think they are unsustainable. I think the issue isn't their fuel efficiency it is the shear size of the fleet. Even if they took delivery of every A320 coming off the line it would take years.

Taking on that kind of debt (something Delta is trying to avoid) will be crippling. With something like 480 aircraft on order, paying for that will require a lot of cash and a steady cash flow, something that I don't think this industry can guarantee yet. I also really don't think that AA's plan of acquiring 480 some aircraft is going to allow them to be as flexible as they will need to be to remain profitable.
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tonytifao
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:11 am

Thank you all for the responses.

So what makes MD90s more efficient than the MD80s?
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:24 am

Quoting questions (Reply 2):
Part of it is brand... leading edge, advanced, modern vs conservative, second-hand, good enough will do

Been awhile since AA has been "leading edge", in my estimation and I'll take conservative, second-hand (but refurbished) any day over another bankruptcy.
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:34 am

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):
So what makes MD90s more efficient than the MD80s?

Gigantic, high-bypass V2500 engines in the back.


-

I'm going to be the first to say this here, AA's MD-80s are a lot nicer than DL's. Sure Delta has economy comfort and embroidered headrests and what have you, but the entire back of that airplane, like five rows, has no view since the reconfiguration. AA's S80s have only two (one 1.5 really since you can still get a half window in row 31) and AA has extended overhead bin space on the DEF side of the airplane. AA has nicer first class seats in the S80 and most economy seats are fitted with winged headrests, something you can't get on DL.

I think the big difference in philosophy is how they're being deployed. DL still sends MD-88s on higher yeilding long-distance flights. AA only does to a very limited extent. DFW-PDX, ORD-TUS, LAX-STL are among the longest and they are disappearing more and more. Alternatively, they're deploying them exclusively on high-cycle, high-frequency, high-density routes from DFW and to a lesser extent ORD. (DFW-AUS/SAT/OKC/TUL/MCI/DEN) (ORD-MSP/STL/LGA/DCA/PHL).

I think the notion that AA can't make money with the S80 is false. DL has more seats in the back than AA and a better (cheaper) contract for them. Other than that I can't see why the costs would be any different. AA's MD-83s were built to the same MD-88 standard as DL's except with the older cockpit to keep commonality with the other jets.


Whatever your opinion, they're still fun jets to fly. I just got off one, ELP-DFW. I hope they stick around for awhile.
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:38 am

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 5):
Where AA has the 280 MD-82 give or take

More like 180 (-82 and -83 combined). The 737 just passed up the Mad Dog in number.

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):
So what makes MD90s more efficient than the MD80s?

V2500 engines are the main thing. More or less the same engine as the A320...a much newer design and higher bypass ratio than the JT8Ds they replace. Also, the fuselage stretch allows more pax and therefore more revenue...
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:29 pm

AA still flies MD80s on long flights. ORD-LAS should be all 738, but it is all MD80. Last month, there was a daily 738 flight, but no longer. ORD-PSP is almost always a full flight, but it is always MD80. Even some ORD-LAX routes find some MD80s there. AA always comes up with some reason to put the MD80s back into service on long haul flights out of ORD, but the reasoning seems suspect given high fuel prices and heavy passenger loads.
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 3):
AA simply can't make money with those planes they had to many and by the time they realized they needed newer efficient planes it was to late

What happened to AA was that Boeing started dropping hints that it was looking to develop a new narrowbody, using some of the technology of the 787. Southwest went on record saying that if Boeing would develop a new narrowbody that could reduce costs by the same percentage that the 787 reduces costs over the 767, it would order 150 and option 150. I seem to recall that this was around 2006. This was also when the 787 wasn't so far behind schedule.

AA didn't want to put in a large order for 737NGs, then have Boeing start taking orders for a new narrowbody within a few years. Between that potential scenrio and trying to conserve cash, AA sat on the sidelines until the price of oil skyrocketed in 2008. So, AA placed its large 738 order for deliveries to start in 2009.

Of course, if AA had decided to go ahead with the 738 order in 2006 or early 2007, they would have been receiving planes as the price of oil mushroomed. But, when AA's primary supplier of aircraft is whispering about a new narrowbody, and Southwest is pushing Boeing hard to start work on a new plane, it makes sense to wait and see.

That said, I've been on a number of AA MD-80s and have found them to be kept in good condition. Obviously, they haven't gone through a major refurbishment since the late 1990s, when AA went to the current color scheme and seats with the adjustable headrests.

I've never been on a Delta MD-88, and it's been some time since any friends of mine have flown Delta on the MD-88. So, I can't comment. But, I would expect that if Delta is planning to keep the MD-88s for some time (or until fuel prices get too expensive for the type), then they will get a lot of TLC.

One would expcet that AA will keep the MD-80s in good condition in terms of operations of the aircraft, but the interiors may not get as much TLC, since the fleet is destined for the desert, as more 738s are delivered and A319s start arriving next year.
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting tonytifao (Thread starter):
Everyone bashes AA MDs, being old, gas guzzlers, etc. I don't see why it's not said the same about DL MDs. Delta is actually acquiring while AA is slowly retiring. Is there much difference between the MDs fleet of these two airlines?

The fact that DL is doing as well as they are with so many MDs puts that myth to rest. AA's problem isn't the S80s, it's AA. Type matters to a small extent, but there's a good deal more to it than that.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 1):
from what I hear on A.net and see for myself, DL's MD's have a better maintenance reliability than AA 's.

They're newer (although AA does have some of the most recent, courtesy of TWA). DL spends good money on MD MX too. They just don't have that ridiculous lease arrangement on their backs.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 3):

AA simply can't make money with those planes they had to many and by the time they realized they needed newer efficient planes it was to late.

Again, the 80's aren't the problem. It's their usage and their lease back.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 3):
Gotta love US has one of the most fuel efficient planes in the fleet

Ok. But why can't VX (who has the same fleet, minus the 21) make any money? There's more to this than individual trip costs.

G4 & NK both print money these days. One with MDs, the other with 319s, 20s, and a 21. But their operational strategies are so different to what we see at AA, DL, and the LCCs that trip costs almost don't matter there.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 5):
Verse the AA MD's which are not as fuel efficient and maintenance heavy.


They're not, no. But let's not forget that some of DL's MDs are actually DC-9-50s. Where would those fall on this scale?

I'm not saying updating their fleet is a bad idea. It isn't. But they're going to have to do a lot more than blame the MD80s to set themselves on a less loss-intensive path, going forward.



Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):
So what makes MD90s more efficient than the MD80s?

More seats, better engines, and above all else, DL has been adept at getting these planes cheap. AA has really not done this with their own MDs. I think by now the type has more than paid for itself, but their being AA with all that entails has been their problem. Frankly, AA would be in the exact same bind they are in even if their S80s were A32xs.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 5):

The other thing to remember is that airlines aren't just looking for a profit in part it is the whole picture. AA 's MDs, might actually be making money for AA even though the margins might be very small. Mix that with revenue issues in other areas and you have a loss.

Yup, I think you nailed it. Super high labor, disadvantageous vendor contracts in literally everything they do, refusal to open up new markets, and fierce competition that will not relent have all taken their toll. We really can't just blame the Mad Dawgs, as intellectually facile as that may be.
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:38 pm

Overall, I prefer the interiors of the DL MD-88s over the AA MD-80s. DL has gone through the process of refurbishing the cabins, including leather seat covers, updated PSUs, and cool white lighting. The only thing better about AA's MD-80s are the winged headrests in Y.
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:55 pm

Deltas MD-90s are much more fuel efficient than AAs Mad Dogs. You are comparing MD-80s to MD-90s. Its apples to oranges comparison. Delta is getting much more fuel efficient planes. Not a bad move and delta can retire the more fuel guzzling DC9s and older MD88s.
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:07 pm

While I definitely understand the significant difference between the -80 and -90, what precisely is the MD-88?

Other than being newer, does it have lower operating costs than the -80/-83?
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 15):
While I definitely understand the significant difference between the -80 and -90, what precisely is the MD-88?

Other than being newer, does it have lower operating costs than the -80/-83?

The MD-88 is an updated MD-82 with a partial CRT cockpit and screwdriver tailcone; DL's first MD-88s were actually converted MD-82s. However, the partial CRT cockpit and screwdriver tailcone later became standard on the MD-82 and MD-83.

As for operating cost, it should be the same as the MD-82.
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:32 pm

I saw it posted once but someone showed the fuel burn on a 500,750 and 1000 stage length comparing a DL md-88 vs a DL 737-800 and a B6 A320. From what I remember the shorter two legs were almost the same regardless of the plan with the efficiences only showing on the longer legs as the curse phase of flight is where the savings builds up.
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:35 pm

I flew one of DL's MD-90s from ATL - SAN a few years back. It was pleasant enough up front. I noticed DL puts its two seat rows on the right side of the plane whereas AA puts theirs on the left. What really struck me about the DL plane I flew in was the noise and vibration in the back of the plane. The racket was so loud, I can't imagine anyone flying in the last five rows. I recall using the lavatory and being shocked at the rear of the aircraft. I don't recall that in the AA planes, but I haven't flown one recently.
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:38 pm

I think Delta's and American's MD-80s are both very nice aircraft to fly in. The interiors of both are clean and well-maintained. I prefer AA's because of the cloth seat covers. I'm not crazy about leather.

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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18):
I flew one of DL's MD-90s from ATL - SAN a few years back. It was pleasant enough up front. I noticed DL puts its two seat rows on the right side of the plane whereas AA puts theirs on the left.

That's only the case with the DL MD-88's. The DL MD-90's are, as AFAIK always have been two on left, three on right.
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 20):
That's only the case with the DL MD-88's. The DL MD-90's are, as AFAIK always have been two on left, three on right.

You've got it swapped. AA's S80s 2-3 (AB, DEF). DL's MD-90s and DC-9-50s are also like this, but the DL MD-88s are 3-2 (ABC DE).

Its awfully confusing, and since I'm familiar with the way AA does it it just looks weird!

Remember AA's have the expanded bins on the DEF side while DL's do not.
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 21):
You've got it swapped. AA's S80s 2-3 (AB, DEF). DL's MD-90s and DC-9-50s are also like this, but the DL MD-88s are 3-2 (ABC DE).

That's exactly what I said. Generally, when making reference to "right" and "left" side of the aircraft, we are referring to aircraft right or left, meaning looking forward from the back, not looking backward from the front as you walk into the plane.
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:42 pm

I fly SK's MD-82's 2 or 3 times per week. I'll choose an MD80 over A320/B738 any time. If you fly in the front (business/premium economy) it's incredibly quiet and they have a 2-3 layout. I find the 3-3 configuration on A320/B738 way more uncomfortable for foodservice / working.

They might be old planes but the flying experience is great, in my opinion!
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 21):
Remember AA's have the expanded bins on the DEF side while DL's do not.

That is where you are wrong. DL has expanded bins on the ABC side on the MD-88s and the DEF side on the MD-90s. They were installed on the MD-88s in 2000, and the MD-90s have been retrofitted in the past year or two. Also, unlike AA, the bin extensions on DL's MD-88s have a holding rail.
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 21):
Remember AA's have the expanded bins on the DEF side while DL's do not.

Delta has extended bins on the ABC side of the MD-88 and the CDE side of the MD-90.
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:45 pm

I worked OPS for Alaska Airlines in the 90s when we operated MD82/83 and 737-400s on both long and short routes. When you do ops you get to see and compare exactly how much fuel each one takes on, trip fuel burn, etc. The MD80 burned and carried marginally more fuel than the 737-400 on longer trips like FAI-SEA but for short hops like FAI-ANC there was little or no difference in the trip fuel depending on the alternate airport. I can see how the extra 2000 lbs of fuel ads up on 3-4 hour flights though.

I agree mostly with what others have said in that it isnt the MD80 at AA that is the problem it is indeed the size of the fleet, the terrible leases and labor that have been the problem. The difference between owning a fleet or even a single aircraft and leasing them more than makes up the difference of what is spent on fuel. You can buy a lot of fuel for one aircraft if you own it outright that would otherwise be totally eaten up with leases that likely exceed the monthly fuel bill for that plane.

There are differences between DLs MD88s and AAs MD82/83s but they are mostly subjective. None of the major US airlines are going to neglect a fleet or type, they cant do that for many reasons so I expect the preference for one as opposed to another to be totally based on personal taste. DL is obviously committed to their MD88s for the future now that they are bringing in more MD90s and can concentrate on the MX and upgrades of that larger fleet while saving HUGE money on capital outlay for new aircraft. There is no reason that DLs MD88s would be any less comfortable than their 738s or 739s as long as they are upgraded to keep pace with what passengers expect. AA is retiring their MD80s as new 738s and in the future A320 family aircraft arrive but in the meantime I dont imagine they will be neglecting the MD80s so long as they are in the fleet.

DL had a singularly unique chance to acquire and control the worldwide fleet of a particular type of aircraft removing the competition for MX, parts and spares for that fleet. They can and will, I predict eventually end up with every MD90 in the world as the last handfull of operators retire them. Right now only a few remain that are not spoken for by DL, those at UNI and Lion and of course the orphan fleet of Saudi with the non MD90 standard flight deck of the 717. But now that DL has committed to the 88 717s from Southwest those orphan Saudi MD90s might make more sense since they are now all parked- all but one apparently.

As far as efficiency of the MD90 and 717, they are now and will remain to be at the top of the heap in terms of operating economics for their size, pretty impressive for a plane (the MD90) who's first flight was almost 20 years ago. Think about that, years before the 737NGs took to the skies, MDC more or less was building the MD90 that preformed as well as the 738 and still compares pretty evenly with it all these years later. Of course the 717 is a type that has no competition except for the stepchild 737-600 which nobody wants and possibly the C-Series which is still half a year away from its first flight. The 717 has proven itself to be a rugged and reliable short hauler that has operating economics second to none. Ask HA how their fleet of island hopping 717s do and they will tell you that nothing else could do what the 717 does.
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:25 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 2):
good enough will do

I really don't think that's DAL's philosophy. They're taking early to mid-aged jets (with the exception of the ancient -9's,) and putting fuel in them which they can control the cost of, now that they have their own refinery.

Meanwhile, AAL is buying jets they can't afford and putting fuel they also can't afford in the jets they already have. Delta seems to be playing it smart, especially considering that their "old" MD-88s are some of the nicer jets in the sky now (new interiors, wifi, etc).
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:23 pm

I'll make it easy here: DL and AA have the extended bins on the 3 seat side. Done.
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:38 pm

Someone above described the differences between the MD82 and the MD88, but can someone tell me the differences between the MD88 and the MD83? I know its not that the MD88 is the newer version because infact its not, the latest MD's were 83 series that all went to TWA as far as I know.
Thanks for any info on that.

I have been on many AA, TWA, DL MD80's, and DL MD90 and I do not recall any differences whatsoever. All were fine flights. My most memorable was back in the 90's on a brand spaken new TWA MD83. Captain said it started service only the day before. First time I have ever smelled "new plane smell", and it was amazing  
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 29):
Someone above described the differences between the MD82 and the MD88, but can someone tell me the differences between the MD88 and the MD83? I know its not that the MD88 is the newer version because infact its not, the latest MD's were 83 series that all went to TWA as far as I know.
Thanks for any info on that.

The MD-83 is the longer range variant of the MD-80 family, equipped with more powerful engines and more fuel capacity. The MD-83 has a range of 2500 nmi, vs. 2050 nmi for the MD-82/88.
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:33 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 8):
DL still sends MD-88s on higher yeilding long-distance flights.

In general, DL does not fly the 88s west of the Rockies. Those missions are left for the 90s and bigger.

Quoting L1011 (Reply 19):
I'm not crazy about leather.

Seconded. I don't like that... swampy... feeling the pleather gives.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 20):
That's only the case with the DL MD-88's. The DL MD-90's are, as AFAIK always have been two on left, three on right.

Does anyone have any particular technical reason as to why an airline would do this?
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting L1011 (Reply 19):
I'm not crazy about leather.

DL moved away from cloth and chose leather because fluids (let your imagination run wild) do not soak into leather as they do cloth. The leather is claimed to be more sanitary.
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
DL has gone through the process of refurbishing the cabins, including leather seat covers, updated PSUs, and cool white lighting.
Quoting L1011 (Reply 19):
I think Delta's and American's MD-80s are both very nice aircraft to fly in. The interiors of both are clean and well-maintained. I prefer AA's because of the cloth seat covers. I'm not crazy about leather.

Fully agree. Leather is no improvement in my opinion. I much prefer cloth. The only reason airlines use leather is because it lasts longer and is cheaper to maintain. You almost never see leather on longhaul widebodies operated by airlines with the best service reputations. For example, LX and BA use leather on shorthaul narrowbodies but cloth on widebodies. KLM's continued use of cloth on their 737s is one reason I prefer KL to most other major European carriers for travel within Europe. AF also still uses cloth on their European A320 family fleet.
 
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 31):
Quoting mhkansan (Reply 8): DL still sends MD-88s on higher yeilding long-distance flights.
In general, DL does not fly the 88s west of the Rockies. Those missions are left for the 90s and bigger.

DL does not fly the MD88s any farther west than cities like DFW, SAT, OKC, or MCI.
Unlike AA, DL does not even use their MD-88s into hotter/higher airports like DEN, SLC, PHX, TUS, or ABQ. DL has the more capable / efficient (base on route profile) MD-90s and A320s in the same capacity range.

In fact, DLs longest MD-88 flights are some of the NYC-Florida and DTW-Florida routes, all in the ~1000 mile range.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
Fully agree. Leather is no improvement in my opinion. I much prefer cloth. The only reason airlines use leather is because it lasts longer and is cheaper to maintain. You almost never see leather on longhaul widebodies operated by airlines with the best service reputations. For example, LX and BA use leather on shorthaul narrowbodies but cloth on widebodies. KLM's continued use of cloth on their 737s is one reason I prefer KL to most other major European carriers for travel within Europe. AF also still uses cloth on their European A320 family fleet.

I completely agree and like flying KL for the same reasons, although I find their aircraft to be nicer than that of AF for some reason. The problem with leather on longhaul flights is that it gets cold and you feel like you're slipping out of your seat so end up having to scoot back up on a regular basis. That can become tiring after hours of sitting. I do prefer AA's MD-80's in general, and the cloth seats are just part of it. I think I prefer the 2-3 configuration instead of the 3-2 as well as the darker interior of the cabin. I know those AA Mad Dogs get all sorts of bad things you don't want to think about running around on them (as I'm sure DL gets), but I still think they're nice.
 
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totesen
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):
So what makes MD90s more efficient than the MD80s?


Well the MD90 has the same CFM engines as the A320, making it as efficient as a new generation aircraft, it is also built on the late 90´s while the MD-82 was built in the early 80´s with late 70´s early 80´s technology. its a two decade difference technology.
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Viscount724
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:36 am

Quoting totesen (Reply 36):
Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):
So what makes MD90s more efficient than the MD80s?


Well the MD90 has the same CFM engines as the A320

Not correct. The MD-90 has the IAE V2500. Both the CFM56 and V2500 are options on the A320 family. The CFM56 was never an option on the MD-90.
 
brilondon
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:43 am

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 3):
AA has Md82/83

AA simply can't make money with those planes they had to many and by the time they realized they needed newer efficient planes it was to late. Gotta love US has one of the most fuel efficient planes in the fleet
DL has md88/90 and soon to be 717

DL on the other hand is making money with and is acquiring more for a cheap cost which is enables then to generate more revenue.

Not exactly. AA acquired their fleet of MD's through mergers with Reno Air, TWA, and I think another airline which I cannot remember as well as their own.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
As for operating cost, it should be the same as the MD-82.
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
The MD-88 is an updated MD-82 with a partial CRT cockpit and screwdriver tailcone; DL's first MD-88s were actually converted MD-82s. However, the partial CRT cockpit and screwdriver tailcone later became standard on the MD-82 and MD-83.

Are not the AA MD's updated to have the avionics of an MD 88 but still have the engines of the MD-82/83. There by making them probably less efficient than the MD-88 but have the more modern cockpit of the MD-88. This I got from a pilot I was in conversation with when we were delayed in DFW.
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dtw9
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:19 am

Delta BOD has approved the flat panel mod for the MD80/90 fleet. First Mods will start mid to late 2013. Center stack stays with flat panels on either side.
 
upstatedave
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:13 am

People, people! AA's MDs are the smaller variant so the higher fuel costs are exacerbated compared to DL's. Its the same problem the 737-600/-700 have to the -800
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:21 am

Quoting UpstateDave (Reply 40):
AA's MDs are the smaller variant so the higher fuel costs are exacerbated compared to DL's.

Unless you're talking about the MD-90, that's not true. The -81, -82, -83 and -88 all have the exact same exterior dimensions and seating capacities.
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deltal1011man
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:39 am

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):

lack of JT8s.....MD90 has V2500s....which also powers some A320s.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 34):
DL does not fly the MD88s any farther west than cities like DFW, SAT, OKC, or MCI.
Unlike AA, DL does not even use their MD-88s into hotter/higher airports like DEN, SLC, PHX, TUS, or ABQ. DL has the more capable / efficient (base on route profile) MD-90s and A320s in the same capacity range.

for the record Delta has run ATL-ABQ with 88s. Its fairly new that they have mostly (all?) 90s on the route
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:42 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 42):
for the record Delta has run ATL-ABQ with 88s. Its fairly new that they have mostly (all?) 90s on the route

Right. However now with the increased size of the MD-90 fleet, they've been able to get the MD-88s off the longer stage length flights. Routes like ATL-ABQ are likely no longer going to see MD88s.
 
dtw9
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:24 pm

What everybody is neglecting to look at in this comparison between AA and Delta's MD-80 fleets is that up until recently AA had higher crew costs then Delta. The second item that needs to be addressed is the cabin configuration. Delta's MD-88's seat 149 and AA's MD-80's seat 140. Delta also uses its MD-80 fleet on shorter stage lengths which has been proven to be more efficent for the type. I'd be curious to see if the lower crew costs at AA have changed the dynamics and that they are now making money with the MD-80's.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 8):
and AA has extended overhead bin space on the DEF side of the airplane.



As does all Delta 88s on the side with 3 seats...

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 8):
DL still sends MD-88s on higher yeilding long-distance flights. AA only does to a very limited extent.



??? The longest 88 routes right now are 2.5 hour missions. Most of the flights on 88s today are 2 hours or less. The longest route out of ATL is to ELP at a little over 1200 miles (about 3 hours in the air ) and then NYC-Florida which are all between 2 hours and 2 hours 30 mins.



Quoting dtw9 (Reply 44):
What everybody is neglecting to look at in this comparison between AA and Delta's MD-80 fleets is that up until recently AA had higher crew costs then Delta. The second item that needs to be addressed is the cabin configuration. Delta's MD-88's seat 149 and AA's MD-80's seat 140. Delta also uses its MD-80 fleet on shorter stage lengths which has been proven to be more efficent for the type. I'd be curious to see if the lower crew costs at AA have changed the dynamics and that they are now making money with the MD-80's.

I doubt they will ever be making money in the sense you are trying to convey due to all the reasons you listed plus the fact that AA is saddled with lease payments.


[Edited 2012-11-20 06:42:45]
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dtw9
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 45):
I doubt they will ever be making money in the sense you are trying to convey due to all the reasons you listed plus the fact that AA is saddled with lease payments.

Yes, but AA renegotiated alot of their lease payments on the MD-80 fleet. Add in lower crew costs and you have the basis of AA possibly making money with the fleet.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 38):

Not exactly. AA acquired their fleet of MD's through mergers with Reno Air, TWA, and I think another airline which I cannot remember as well as their own.

AirCal.
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 46):
Yes, but AA renegotiated alot of their lease payments on the MD-80 fleet. Add in lower crew costs and you have the basis of AA possibly making money with the fleet.



A lease payment is a lease payment. And i'm not sure what lower crew cost we're talking about. The pilot contract is not ratified as far as I know. F/As I can't speak about. The whole point is moot as they're getting rid of them. Taking on new a/c in their place.
What gets measured gets done.
 
dtw9
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RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s

Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 48):

A lease payment is a lease payment.

Really. So you're trying to tell me that if I lower a lease payment from say 100,000 a month to say 75,000 a month, that its not going to help my bottom line? NOT!

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 48):
The whole point is moot as they're getting rid of them. Taking on new a/c in their place.

Which then makes this whole topic of discussion moot

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