BommerJan
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LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:54 pm

Apparently LH403 landed in DUB due to co pilot having migrane with help of B767 certified passenger's help.

sorry only in German

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/gesel...kapitaen-beim-landen-a-868299.html

Anyone know which airline the passenger works for?

[Edited 2012-11-20 06:57:46]
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:59 pm

It says he's a pilot with a North American airline and they are flying into EWR. So I'm guessing United...
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wilco737
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:00 pm

Quoting BommerJan (Thread starter):
aving migrane

And due to that he was incapacitated and couldn't perfom his duties anymore.

Another link here:

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45946e02&opt=0

Quoting BommerJan (Thread starter):
Anyone know which airline the passenger works for?

It is said a North American airline, which can be several.

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fn1001
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting BommerJan (Thread starter):
Anyone know which airline the passenger works for?

Air Berlin, formerly LTU, according to _unconfirmed_ _rumours_.
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wilco737
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting fn1001 (Reply 3):
Air Berlin, formerly LTU, according to _unconfirmed_ _rumours_.

That would be against the article which said a North American Airline. And Air Berlin is not really North American 

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CARST
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 4):
And Air Berlin is not really North American

Historically speaking they were a North American company until 1991.
 
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:18 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 5):
Historically speaking they were a North American company until 1991.

Of course, if you see it like that, then Air Berlin is a North American Airline. But I guess we can agree that it is now a German Airline and I guess that spiegel.de is referring to a North American Airline like UA, DL or similar.

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CARST
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:24 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 6):
Of course, if you see it like that, then Air Berlin is a North American Airline. But I guess we can agree that it is now a German Airline and I guess that spiegel.de is referring to a North American Airline like UA, DL or similar.

Absolutely, I was just nitpicking a little bit... ^^
 
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting fn1001 (Reply 3):
Air Berlin, formerly LTU, according to _unconfirmed_ _rumours_.

A B767 certified pilot at Air Berlin?
 
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:01 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 4):
That would be against the article which said a North American Airline. And Air Berlin is not really North American

Could s/he be a pilot with North American Airlines? Odd it would say "a North American airline" vs. "an American airline", "a Canadian airline" or "a Mexican airline."
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ushermittwoch
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 8):

Quoting fn1001 (Reply 3):
Air Berlin, formerly LTU, according to _unconfirmed_ _rumours_.

A B767 certified pilot at Air Berlin?

Maybe he stayed certified after LTU got rid of them over a decade ago.  
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wilco737
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting tymnbalewne (Reply 9):
Could s/he be a pilot with North American Airlines? Odd it would say "a North American airline" vs. "an American airline", "a Canadian airline" or "a Mexican airline."

Translated from the article it says: "Working for an airline from North America." So I guess it could be North American Airline, but it could be any other airline from North America as well.

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FI642
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:46 pm

The article in German says he fell ill with a migraine.

The North American Airline could be even be UPS.

Everyone was safe and that's what really matters!
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CARST
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:00 pm

Hey wilco737,

what is SOP in such a case? Autoland? Or would the LH pilot do a manual landing?



And would it have been different if there is no other pilot onboard? Would he do a Autoland in this case to focus on the PNF duties?
 
wilco737
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
what is SOP in such a case? Autoland? Or would the LH pilot do a manual landing?

An Autoland would be possible, but the problem is usually the ground equipment. For Autoland the ground has to observe many different things as well. You can do a simulated autoland. Means you perform the autoland, but the ground stays on "CAT I" procedures. As you are visual and do not require the autoland you can perform a go around if something goes wrong.

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
And would it have been different if there is no other pilot onboard? Would he do a Autoland in this case to focus on the PNF duties?

It is always good to have another set of eyes on board to see what you are doing, as we all can make mistakes.
As we pilots are trained on the airplane I would think that he flew the airplane with autopilot quite long, but did the landing manually. But that's only a guess.

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golfradio
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:17 pm

I am assuming the 767 captain was not jump seating and was in the cabin as a regular passenger. What's the protocol for checking if there are any qualified passengers in the back? I would imagine a PA would sort of alarm the passengers.
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ZBBYLW
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:19 pm

Abso

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
And would it have been different if there is no other pilot onboard? Would he do a Autoland in this case to focus on the PNF duties?

Absolutely not. The pilot would have "focused" on the PF duties while including the PNF duties. As PF even with the auto pilot on primary duties are to keep the airplane safe at all times and actively "fly/monitor". A perfect example would be what happened in the everglades when 3/3 pilots focused on an issue that did not include flying the airplane. They realized too late and were not capable of saving the aircraft.

As a PF you would normally call the PNF to action gear down, flap selection, FMGC/FMS programming etc.. so in this case you'd just have to do it yourself (or have the second pilot help).

There is much more to auto land than a regular landing. The only time an auto land may be preferred would be if all the type specific pilots became incapacitated. With an auto land the level of service of an airport needs to be higher (not even sure if DUB has a Cat 3 level of service). The navigation systems have to be protected (no-one taxiing around in the radio beams from the LOC/GS) and someone will need to monitor the aircraft for any degradation of Auto land capability if you're not type rated it's hard to know what to look for in a specific plane.

Turning the AP off sometimes can make everything simpler.
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 17):
(not even sure if DUB has a Cat 3 level of service

They definitely have CAT II, probably even CAT III, not sure, as usually in Europe, CAT III approach plates aren't published for public use as they are in North America.

http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Publ...les/EIDW/EI_AD_2_EIDW_24-20_en.pdf

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-11-20 09:30:09]
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wilco737
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 17):
Absolutely not. The pilot would have "focused" on the PF duties while including the PNF duties. As PF even with the auto pilot on primary duties are to keep the airplane safe at all times and actively "fly/monitor". A perfect example would be what happened in the everglades when 3/3 pilots focused on an issue that did not include flying the airplane. They realized too late and were not capable of saving the aircraft.

You can still do an autoland and many airlines suggest to do an autoland. And as you are visual and don't have only 75m visisbility you can see when the autopilot is doing weird things and still disconnect it.

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airxliban
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:37 pm

Glad that they made it safely to DUB. I used to fly LH FRA-DUB all the time, I would have been beside myself if I showed up to the airport to see a 747 there!

Quick question - what kind of announcement does the Captain make in such a circumstance? I imagine that letting the passengers know that there is only one guy up in front would be slightly discomfortig.
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wilco737
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting Airxliban (Reply 20):
Quick question - what kind of announcement does the Captain make in such a circumstance? I imagine that letting the passengers know that there is only one guy up in front would be slightly discomfortig.

If the passengers even find out. The flight deck of the 744 is seperated from the cabin and on the upper deck is only 8 F class seats. So not many passenger would see it anyway.
And the crew rest is right behind the flight deck as well, so no need to leave that area.

Of course latest when diverting to DUB he needs to do an announcement and then just be honest. The passengers will find out eventually anyway. And telling the passenger one pilot is enough and another one is assisting should be fine.
Most passengers are even worried when they see me with 34 years flying a 747. Original quote:" Are you the captain?"
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:47 pm

Yes, Dublin has CAT III capability. LH divert here quite frequently.
 
PHX787
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:48 pm

Sounds like a brutal migrane  
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 2):

Has that ever happened to you, you or a different pilot have an incapacitation issue on your flight?
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
Has that ever happened to you, you or a different pilot have an incapacitation issue on your flight?

No, only once after the flight on the 737. We were on the parking position and then the captain had to throw up and called in sick of course.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
Sounds like a brutal migrane

Migrane can be brutal and can let you be incapacited and not doing anything instead getting into the horizontal, lights off, no noise and suffer...

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hOMSaR
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 7):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 6):
Of course, if you see it like that, then Air Berlin is a North American Airline. But I guess we can agree that it is now a German Airline and I guess that spiegel.de is referring to a North American Airline like UA, DL or similar.

Absolutely, I was just nitpicking a little bit... ^^

Well, if you really want to be technical, even if Berlin was under US control, it was no more a part of North America than Hong Kong was a part of Europe.

North America is a continent. Berlin is not on that continent.
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ushermittwoch
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting HOMsAR (Reply 25):
Well, if you really want to be technical, even if Berlin was under US control, it was no more a part of North America than Hong Kong was a part of Europe.

North America is a continent. Berlin is not on that continent.


Air Berlin was founded in Oregon, which is in North America.
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N14AZ
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
...another question about the migrane - was the FO female?

Maybe someone in cockpit mentioned the words "sex" and "tonight" so she applied the proper female SOP for such situations... Whoever said these words is fully responsible to what happened!  
 
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:12 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 24):
No, only once after the flight on the 737. We were on the parking position and then the captain had to throw up and called in sick of course.

Ah yes, those bloody hangovers.
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cbphoto
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:28 am

Everyone that is asking what the protocol is for having passengers assist in the flight deck, will be disappointed to learn that there is no protocol that exists. These situations are very uncommon in the day to day life of a pilot. I would hope the pilot flying would use their best judgment when a situation like this occurs, but even a private pilot would be of great value in the flight deck when a situation occurs that leaves a pilot incapacitated. Also, their is still one qualified pilot in the flight deck, so I am not sure why everyone is asking about an auto land, seeing as though the qualified pilot is also qualified to land the plane  
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FlyHossD
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:50 am

Quoting golfradio (Reply 16):

I am assuming the 767 captain was not jump seating and was in the cabin as a regular passenger. What's the protocol for checking if there are any qualified passengers in the back? I would imagine a PA would sort of alarm the passengers.

IIRC, a Continental 757 operating IAH-PVR diverted into McAllen, Texas a few years ago when one of the pilots became incapacitated.

A announcement was made asking for any pilot rated passengers and a private pilot did assist in the diversion to McAllen.

Unfortunately, the ill pilot passed away.
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brilondon
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 25):
Air Berlin was founded in Oregon, which is in North America.

This is really pushing the North American airline rational. Most of us normal (and I use the term normal very, very loosely) people would think that Air Berlin was German. Just a crazy whacked out notion. Also, the pilot was a 767 pilot and I don't think that Air Berlin has the 767 in its fleet. I think that in a pinch a 767 pilot could probably land a 747 if necessary.

[Edited 2012-11-20 17:16:08]
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:25 am

Quoting tymnbalewne (Reply 9):
Could s/he be a pilot with North American Airlines? Odd it would say "a North American airline" vs. "an American airline", "a Canadian airline" or "a Mexican airline."

In standard German use it's not odd at all, it is the accurate expression to refer to an island from that continent.

And while it well be UA, the only reason EWR was mentioned in the article is that the LH flight originated from there, so EWR in this case is not really a clue as to the 767 pilot's employer.
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georgiaame
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:36 am

Migraines are a no-no in the US for flying, for this very reason. Something is missing in this story.
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BreninTW
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:43 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 11):
"Working for an airline from North America."

It could also be an AC pilot ...
 
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shamrock604
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:48 am

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 32):
Migraines are a no-no in the US for flying, for this very reason. Something is missing in this story.

Could have been his first one!

I had one migraine ever in my life - which helped diagnose a thyroid problem. Never had one since.
 
TransIsland
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:43 am

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 31):
In standard German use it's not odd at all, it is the accurate expression to refer to an island from that continent.

Now why I wrote "island" I have no clue. I meant airline.

Another circumstance that makes it less likely to be a clue for North American Airlines is the fact the "North American" in German is one word, not capitalised: "a northamerican airline."
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FI642
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:53 am

My friends at NAA have confirmed it was a pilot from North American Airlines who assisted with the landing.

Good Job!
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C010T3
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:04 am

Quoting FI642 (Reply 36):
My friends at NAA have confirmed it was a pilot from North American Airlines who assisted with the landing.

Considering the whole discussion here, that makes it ll pretty hilarious! It wasn't "a" but it was "the" North American Airlines.
 
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:12 am

When you translate the article from German to English, it sort of loses something, doesn't it. Today I tried to explain it to a friend, and translate it out word for word... she finally said "stop!" I just laughed. My Tante Annegret says "I don't know why we say things the way we do."
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captainstefan
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:50 am

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 16):
3/3 pilots focused on an issue that did not include flying the airplane

4/4 if you count Donadeo, who was in the jumpseat for the flight and was 'assisting' with the landing gear indicator troubleshoot.
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:11 am

Wouldn't there be a spare crew or at least another FO since this was a long flight? I'm assuming this flight is about 8 hours long.
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tymnbalewne
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:57 am

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 31):
In standard German use it's not odd at all, it is the accurate expression to refer to an island from that continent.

Huh?

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 35):
Now why I wrote "island" I have no clue. I meant airline.

Oh.

Quoting FI642 (Reply 36):
My friends at NAA have confirmed it was a pilot from North American Airlines who assisted with the landing.

Ah HAH!!!

What probably happened is that someone told the journalist that the assisting pilot worked for North American Airlines but the journalist, not having heard of it thought it was "a north American airline."

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ozglobal
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:40 am

Will this mean the end of the first officer's career due to unacceptable risk in future?
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ushermittwoch
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:00 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 30):
This is really pushing the North American airline rational. Most of us normal (and I use the term normal very, very loosely) people would think that Air Berlin was German. Just a crazy whacked out notion.

Of course nobody would think that, I was just correcting the poster who suggested that Air Berlin was founded in Berlin...
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SFO2SVO
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:41 am

Going to EWR, fairly long flight, they did not have third pilot / relieve captain on board?
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Eagleboy
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:24 am

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 28):
Also, their is still one qualified pilot in the flight deck, so I am not sure why everyone is asking about an auto land, seeing as though the qualified pilot is also qualified to land the plane

Interestingly the newspaper articles in Ireland are stating that 'a pilot landed a passenger jet' the poor captain is mentioned in passing.

Quoting SFO2SVO (Reply 44):
Going to EWR, fairly long flight, they did not have third pilot / relieve captain on board?

No need for a relief pilot unless the flight time ia over 9 hrs 30 mins (I stand to be corrected on that figure btw)

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 42):
Will this mean the end of the first officer's career due to unacceptable risk in future?

Poor guy, it could well be an issue. The migraine may indicate an underlying medical problem. And I doubt LH can allow him to fly until the reason for the severe migraine has been discovered.
 
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:26 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 42):
Will this mean the end of the first officer's career due to unacceptable risk in future?

No, a pilot is too much of a valuable asset to be dismissed just off this one instance. It'll mean extensive medical checks, perhaps flying only in enlarged crews for a while, etc. - but it's not the end of the career yet.

Pilot incapacitation is more common than one may think - and the reasons can be quite varied, but psychological and physical. Coming from a family of airline employees, I've heard stories of the years that you wouldn't believe, and which for good reason are kept from public attention.
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BNEFlyer
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:57 am

Quoting SFO2SVO (Reply 44):
Going to EWR, fairly long flight, they did not have third pilot / relieve captain on board?

The flight was going from EWR to FRA.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/l...board/story-e6frfq80-1226520825312 If you can excuse the spelling errors and the pic of an A380.
 
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:21 am

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 28):
but even a private pilot would be of great value in the flight deck when a situation occurs that leaves a pilot incapacitated

Would a so called 'virtual pilot' who has made his flighthours behind the desktop at home with FSX for example be of any use in such a case. I can imagine that even this 'kind of pilots' would be able to assist to a certain (low) degree.

Not that I would feel anyware near capable with my very low skills in FSX, but some people are able to fly EWR-FRA real-time on their PC at home including programming the FMS and having knowledge of some basic general SOP's being used in some real cockpits.
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Eagleboy
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RE: LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help

Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:39 am

Quoting DALCE (Reply 48):
Would a so called 'virtual pilot' who has made his flighthours behind the desktop at home with FSX for example be of any use in such a case. I can imagine that even this 'kind of pilots' would be able to assist to a certain (low) degree.

Not a chance. The off duty guy had his airline ID and was easily able to prove he could be of use. A PC pilot (however much they may be familiar with the interior of a cockpit) is just another passenger in this instance. You can be sure that the B767 pilot was 'vetted' before being allowed near the captain. (In onboard medical situations even doctors must show ID before being allowed to assist)
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