art
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A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:05 am

“I kind of looked at the A380 as a late, overweight aircraft,” he says. “But when she flew, she was faster, more fuel-efficient and more aerodynamical and still is.” Clark points out that “the faster you fly [the A380], the more fuel-efficient she gets; when you fly at [Mach] 0.86 she is better than at 0.83.”

Also, Emirates has observed a very low degradation factor: The first aircraft delivered in 2008 would normally perform around 2.5-3% less efficiently than in the beginning, but according to Clark the degradation has been only around 1%.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_11_21_2012_p0-519980.xml

Seems remarkable that the the aircraft burns less fuel at mach 0.86 than at mach 0.83. How does that come about? Any engineers able to offer an explanation?

Airbus appears to have come up with an aircraft that exceeds expectations. I guess that is rather useful to Airbus where an airline is debating the proportion of big twins/A380's it wants in its fleet mix. I guess it also means that in the absence of an all new VLA appearing within 15 years, Airbus can look forward to a large number of orders for delivery in the 2020's as existing customers turn over their fleets.
 
Eagleboy
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:20 am

Interesting info on the lower level of degradation in the fleet.
The future of secondhand market for A380 has been debated a few times on A.Net. EK have 90 on order, the assumption being that the last 25-33% are to replace the first 25-33%. A lower level of degradation may slow the need to replace and/or maintain the used value of the airframe.
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:22 am

Quoting art (Thread starter):
How does that come about?

The extra fuel flow required to go faster is lower is compensated by the shorter flight time.

I didn't think the A380 would be 'comfortable' .86 cruiser. I imagined it more in the .84~.85 range.

The 744 is also very comfortable at .86. Some operators apparently didn't even bother with cost index or FMC econ cruise and just flew around at.86 everywhere. It just likes it there.
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:26 am

Quoting art (Thread starter):
Seems remarkable that the the aircraft burns less fuel at mach 0.86 than at mach 0.83. How does that come about? Any engineers able to offer an explanation?

Don't forget if you fly at 0.86 you get there faster. I'm guessing the extra fuel used to fly at 0.86 is more than offset by the shorter flight time and therefore less overall fuel use.
 
JU068
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:32 am

What about the other operators? Have any of them been this impressed by this bird?
 
brightcedars
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:42 am

Actually one should do the math to see if it isn't most efficient to fly at a certain speed when the plane is heavily loaded with fuel soon after take off and more slowly when it's lighter and cruising later in flight.
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swallow
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:43 am

Classic TC ....putting the screws on Airbus by negotiating in the press. As he has done before, he casts doubt on the product, hoping to get better pricing on future orders. At least he has the temerity to admit he was wrong regarding the 388. Didn't stop him ordering stacks of them.

I think his main target is the 3510. I highly doubt that Airbus would have changed its specs without consulting EK, one of her main customers. Tellingly, JL does not publicly contradict TC's claim that he was not consulted.

Since the 359 is becoming to small for his needs, I think TC is looking to convert some 359 orders to the 3510
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rwy04lga
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:55 am

Quoting swallow (Reply 6):
As he has done before, he casts doubt on the product, hoping to get better pricing on future orders.

Claiming overperformance doesn't sound like he's casting doubt on the product. If anything, Airbus could say that if he likes it so much he should be willing to pay more on future orders.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:57 am

Quoting art (Thread starter):
Seems remarkable that the the aircraft burns less fuel at mach 0.86 than at mach 0.83. How does that come about? Any engineers able to offer an explanation?

It may well burn more fuel (have more drag) at M0.86 but if the fuel flow required to fly ~0.36% faster is less than 0.36% then you will travel further on the same fuel.

This seems like good news for the whale but Tim Clark always seems to have a reason up his sleeve for saying things.

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swallow
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:08 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 7):
Claiming overperformance doesn't sound like he's casting doubt on the product.

Per the linked article, he is doubting the 35J not the 388

Emirates Airline President Tim Clark says the carrier’s current order for the Airbus A350-1000 is “in limbo at the moment,” but he is not ready to step back from it .

The aircraft is “overweight and late,” Clark tells Aviation Week. “Let’s just see what she is like when she flies,” he adds. “At the moment there are issues.”


Notice he remains committed to the order, and actually thinks the 350 will do well

we got a pleasant surprise with the A380, maybe we also get a pleasant surprise with the A350-900 and -1000,” Clark says.
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art
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:12 am

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 5):
Actually one should do the math to see if it isn't most efficient to fly at a certain speed when the plane is heavily loaded with fuel soon after take off and more slowly when it's lighter and cruising later in flight.

Forgot that: the faster you fly, the faster you have less weight to push throught the air (because you are burning fuel faster).

I see narrowbodies tend to have m 0.8 as their advertised cruise speed. Can they also be flown faster without increasing fuel burn from A to B or is this a phenomenon seen only in (some?) long range aircraft? I don't understand why the advertised cruise speed would be less than the speed.that burnt the least fuel between origin and destination. Lower engine maintenance cost? Some other factors?
 
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par13del
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:29 am

No mention of the effect on the engines, I guess it may be too early to judge the effect.
Derate takeoffs and lower cruise speeds was not only about fuel but also about preserving the time on the wing for a/c enhines which is also a huge cost and take a/c out of service for a day or so, never mind the capital cost of a replacement engine.

Good news all around for the A380.
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:38 am

Quoting art (Reply 11):
I see narrowbodies tend to have m 0.8 as their advertised cruise speed.

This is because they spend a much greater proportion of their lives taking off, climb, descent and landing with much less cruise time than wide-bodies.
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HiJazzey
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:06 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 13):
This is because they spend a much greater proportion of their lives taking off, climb, descent and landing with much less cruise time than wide-bodies.

True, although they're flying longer these days. The newer generation NBs like the NEOs and Max's should probably be optimised for longer stage lengths
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:12 pm

I would love to know how the A388 CASM is versus expectation. Lower fuel burn is great, but how is the maintenance (other than the wing cracks)?

Quoting par13del (Reply 12):
Good news all around for the A380.

That is is. Now if only the production rate could speed up.

Lightsaber
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worldrider
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:14 pm

Soo EK has 50 A359 and 20 A350-100 on the order book.. counting the total of 388s "soon delivered" that makes
the astonishing number of 160 A widebodies! hmm no B787s? ?

its very likely some of the 359s will be converted the bigger variant (to become the ultimate 777 replacement) aka CX..
nice 380 publicity    i enjoy flying them.
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:15 pm

Quoting art (Thread starter):
Also, Emirates has observed a very low degradation factor: The first aircraft delivered in 2008 would normally perform around 2.5-3% less efficiently than in the beginning, but according to Clark the degradation has been only around 1%.

How does that happen? Does the A/C put on weight over the years, do the wings and fuselage deform into a less aerodynamic state, like the wrinkles on heavily used B-52, for example?


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Or is it the engine wearing out?


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Zkpilot
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:21 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 17):

How does that happen? Does the A/C put on weight over the years, do the wings and fuselage deform into a less aerodynamic state, like the wrinkles on heavily used B-52, for example?

Parasitic Drag (Friction drag), every time an aircraft flies through some rough weather at the right temp etc those little ice crystals dent, scratch, chip away at the aircraft. Screws etc are replaced but don't always give 100% the same fit as a brand new aircraft. Yes they gain weight from bits and pieces and the engines do become less efficient over time.
Some bad turbulence or hard landings can also cause some minor forms of deformation which also add up.
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justloveplanes
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:25 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 17):
How does that happen? Does the A/C put on weight over the years, do the wings and fuselage deform into a less aerodynamic state, like the wrinkles on heavily used B-52, for example?

It may be the GE engines that maintain durability. Clark has mentioned similar characteristics about the EK 77W, that they are resistant to degrading.
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:41 pm

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 1):
Interesting info on the lower level of degradation in the fleet.
The future of secondhand market for A380 has been debated a few times on A.Net.

Remember that EK probably has more incentive than anyone else in the world in promoting the value of secondhand A380s and that includes both current and future, owned and leased aircraft as this will feed into the lease rates / finance deals they can negotiate.
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:43 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 16):
How does that happen? Does the A/C put on weight over the years, do the wings and fuselage deform into a less aerodynamic state, like the wrinkles on heavily used B-52, for example?

Aircraft put on a tremendous amount of weight (tons) per year. One reason the carpets are replaced is even with wear they gain weight (yes, yuck). Another thing is patches to fix damage.

I'm a bit surprised at the baseline number. That is higher than I've heard as the rule of thumb, but perhaps Clark knows more than I.  
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 16):
Or is it the engine wearing out?

Engines degrade with time. On widebodies in long haul service, that often sets the overhaul interval.

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imiakhtar
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 12):
Derate takeoffs and lower cruise speeds was not only about fuel but also about preserving the time on the wing for a/c enhines

Derate takeoffs and cruise speeds are independent of each other. A higher cruise speed will have negligible engine EGT deterioration.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 17):
Or is it the engine wearing out?

That's correct.

Over time (or over Flight Hours:Flight cycles in the aviation context), an engine will undergo Exhaust Gas Turbine (EGT) deterioration. Consequently, the engine will suffer from higher fuel burn. When you factor in DXB's sandy locale and high ambient temperatures, you can see why operations in such an environment are torture for the engines.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
but how is the maintenance (other than the wing cracks)?

That is what I would like to know too.

A few years ago, the GE90-110/5 in EK service on the 77L/W had an EGT deterioration of around 9degC per 1000 flight cycles versus an engine brochure figure of 10degC/1000FCs - a surprising difference given the multiple regional sectors the 77Ws are used on.

It would be interesting to see how the GP7200 compares.

{edited-sorry for confusion)

[Edited 2012-11-22 04:57:05]
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Quoting swallow (Reply 6):
Classic TC ....putting the screws on Airbus by negotiating in the press. As he has done before, he casts doubt on the product, hoping to get better pricing on future orders. At least he has the temerity to admit he was wrong regarding the 388. Didn't stop him ordering stacks of them.

I think his main target is the 3510. I highly doubt that Airbus would have changed its specs without consulting EK, one of her main customers. Tellingly, JL does not publicly contradict TC's claim that he was not consulted.

Since the 359 is becoming to small for his needs, I think TC is looking to convert some 359 orders to the 3510

Sure is typical of him; Airbus, while being pleased at his A380 comments, must also be pretty incandescent about his A350 comments (although I really can't blame TC if he was not consulted!).

However, one thought flashed through my mind (it happens at least once a week): could this also be a message to Boeing as well: "the only thing that's keeping the A350 on our books is your failure to launch the 777X". Just a thought ...
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:48 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 17):
How does that happen? Does the A/C put on weight over the years, do the wings and fuselage deform into a less aerodynamic state, like the wrinkles on heavily used B-52, for example?

The aircraft does put on weight over the years due to many different factors. If you have skin repairs due to ramp rash is just one example. I can't give you a definite answer if the fuselage and the wings deform but with the previous example the plane will loose aerodynamic performance with skin repairs and adding different antennas for Fifi, GPS, and satellite dishes for entertainment. As for wrinkles in the skin, its a normal occurrence. If you can stand on top of a plane when its sitting on the ground you will see ripples in the skin from one rib to another, once the plane is in the sky and its pressurised it will smooth out.
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:54 pm

It's great to hear the A380 out perform its' promise. Maybe this will lead to more carriers in the future trying to place the A380 in their fleet.
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AmericanAirFan
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:57 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 16):
Does the A/C put on weight over the years, do the wings and fuselage deform into a less aerodynamic state, like the wrinkles on heavily used B-52, for example?

Funny you say that. The picture you posted has the following remark:

"and the conspicuous skin wrinkles, which are often mis-identified as evidence of aging, but were actually present when factory fresh and are due to tension from wing flex and weight (called Wagner Tension Field). "

However, aircraft do put on weight over the years as others have said. The A380 being a composite airframe though shouldn't wrinkle like the aluminum birds.
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flyingturtle
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:11 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 17):
Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 18):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
One reason the carpets are replaced is even with wear they gain weight (yes, yuck).
Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 21):
Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 23):

Thanks for the answers, and especially for the yucky one!  
Quoting AmericanAirFan (Reply 25):

Well, I looked for an example image - a fuselage with wrinkles... I could have pulled up E-2 Hawkeye picture for that matter. 

On one aspect you're wrong... the A380 still has an aluminium frame & skin. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380#Advanced_materials  


David
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astuteman
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:20 pm

Quoting swallow (Reply 6):
Since the 359 is becoming to small for his needs, I think TC is looking to convert some 359 orders to the 3510

Funny, isn't it. But the article is about the A350-1000 being "in limbo", and yet the type that looks most threatened by his comments is the A350-900

Quote:
the A350-900 “is starting to look a bit marginal to us because of size,” he adds. “Gauge is the way we grow, you cannot get any more aircraft into the Dubai hub

Sounds to me like that might actually make the A350-1000 more appealing, not less.

Quoting swallow (Reply 6):
Classic TC ....putting the screws on Airbus by negotiating in the press

Tend to think that's how it looks.
I can see early build A350-900's being overweight.
I can equally see most of the weight issues having been worked out of the system by the time the A350-1000 hits the streets - Steve Udvar Hazy certainly thinks there's a viable plan being worked to do this, if his recent comments are anything to go by.

Interesting to note that Airbus and EK between them have taken 5 TONNES of weight out of their A380's. I know Airbus were targetting having 3 tonnes off the base airframe by 2013
That's a LOT of weight   

If they've brought their A380 dry operating weight down from c. 300 tonnes I believe the early frames were at, to c. 295 tonnes, that's very significant in terms of the longer sectors that EK fly. Especially when that gain is applied to the 573 tonners they will get next year.

Nice to see the A380 exceeding TC's expectations, even if that in itself fails to live up to a large part of A-Net's expectations...  

Rgds
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:27 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
I would love to know how the A388 CASM is versus expectation. Lower fuel burn is great, but how is the maintenance (other than the wing cracks)?

That would indeed be very interesting to know.

Quoting par13del (Reply 11):
Good news all around for the A380.

Yes it is.   Makes you wonder which versions of the A380 EK will get in 2013?  .

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ewest-a380-weight-variants-379235/
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 27):
Nice to see the A380 exceeding TC's expectations, even if that in itself fails to live up to a large part of A-Net's expectations...  

It is indeed. And the part of A-nets expectations that can now lo longer be upheld, well I guess these people have to adjust their opinions and expectations regarding the A380?  .
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:47 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 26):
Well, I looked for an example image - a fuselage with wrinkles... I could have pulled up E-2 Hawkeye picture for that matter.

On one aspect you're wrong... the A380 still has an aluminium frame & skin. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380#Advanced_materials


David

Awesome. Thanks for the correction. I don't know why I thought the whole frame was composite.  
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sunrisevalley
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:48 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 27):
If they've brought their A380 dry operating weight down from c. 300 tonnes I believe the early frames were at, to c. 295 tonnes,

Not quibling but Piano-X has an OEW of 299t. for what is termed a "uae" version. Is it possible that the DOW on these frames is nearer 306t ? The OEW for a "generic" 569t MTOW A380 is shown as 285t. For what it terms a "reu" version with 840- seats, 282t.
 
swallow
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:49 pm

Quoting worldrider (Reply 15):
the astonishing number of 160 A widebodies! hmm no B787s?

In the rarefied atmosphere that is EK management, the 787 is considered too small. TC already considers the 359 to be marginal!

That said, TC has publicly praised the 77W and 388 for exceeding expectations.

I expect airline CEO's to say the same about the 787

Nice to see these new aircraft programs beat expectations despite some of the doom and gloom that surrounded their genesis

I look forward to seeing the 350 prove her chops, like the 77W, 388 and 787 before her
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:01 pm

I just don't see where cruising at .86M as opposed to .83M will save fuel. On a mission from DXB to LAX you save about 30 minutes flying time. For an A-380, that is about 15,000 lbs of fuel saved due to the 30 minutes less flying time. But fuel flow per engine would increase by about 1%, per engine, for the 15 hour flight, per hour, at FL-330. That comes out to around 18,000 lbs of additional fuel burn because of the higher cruise airspeed. From LHR-BOS or JFK it is about 10 minutes due to the higher cruise speed.

This doesn't take into account your initial take off will be at a higher gross weight, thus a heavier airplane throughout the entire mission. Or it means taking less cargo/pax so you can load more fuel.

Yes, airplanes do grow in weight as they age. Engine efficency also degrades as the engine ages, too. But it is not 2.5%-3% per year as Mr. Clark is saying, and the airplane OEMs know this, it is typically anywhere from .25% to 1% per 10,000 flying hours or 5,000 cycles (unless the airplane is damaged). So, EK's 4 year old A-380s are somewhere between 1% and 4% less efficent today than the day they were delivered. The only A-380 I can think of that is less efficent than that is the QF bird (Nancy Bird-Walton, VH-OQA?) that had the engine explode and now has patches and repairs that have made it heavier (about 100 kg?) than when it was delivered.
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
But it is not 2.5%-3% per year as Mr. Clark is saying,

"The first aircraft delivered in 2008 would normally perform around 2.5-3% less efficiently than in the beginning, but according to Clark the degradation has been only around 1%."

He never says 2.5-3% per year... He says 1% from the beginning - which is on the low end of the scale.
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:27 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 16):
do the wings and fuselage deform into a less aerodynamic state, like the wrinkles on heavily used B-52, for example?

Please read the description of the photo - those wrinkles aren't from wear........
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art
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
I just don't see where cruising at .86M as opposed to .83M will save fuel. On a mission from DXB to LAX you save about 30 minutes flying time. For an A-380, that is about 15,000 lbs of fuel saved due to the 30 minutes less flying time. But fuel flow per engine would increase by about 1%, per engine, for the 15 hour flight, per hour, at FL-330. That comes out to around 18,000 lbs of additional fuel burn because of the higher cruise airspeed. From LHR-BOS or JFK it is about 10 minutes due to the higher cruise speed.

This doesn't take into account your initial take off will be at a higher gross weight, thus a heavier airplane throughout the entire mission.

Interesting to hear. Thanks.
 
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Stitch
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:49 pm

If the A350-900 is now "marginal" for EK, it would explain why the airline has expressed interest in the 777-8X as it is longer and wider than the A350-900 so it would allow EK to increase capacity by at least 40 seats over the 777-200ER / A350-900 in a 10-abreast configuration (so 330 passengers vs. 290).
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 37):
If the A350-900 is now "marginal" for EK, it would explain why the airline has expressed interest in the 777-8X as it is longer and wider than the A350-900 so it would allow EK to increase capacity by at least 40 seats over the 777-200ER / A350-900 in a 10-abreast configuration (so 330 passengers vs. 290).

I remember EK ordering A350-10. Unless my memory fails me, Clark said something like if Airbus was late he would take their legs off at the kneecaps. Additional lift WHEN NEEDED to fit expansion plans is really important to EK is the message I got. Would a 777-whateverX be available fast enough for EK? Suppose Boeing launched a "new" 777 today, when could EK start scheduled services with it?
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting MattH (Reply 35):

...and as I have written in #26.....  


  

David
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sunrisevalley
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
I just don't see where cruising at .86M as opposed to .83M will save fuel

PIANO-X says that a 569t MTOW/285tOEW version , 60t payload, 7000nm sector burns 188.268t of fuel at M.83 and at M.86, 192.531t
 
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Stitch
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting art (Reply 38):
Suppose Boeing launched a "new" 777 today, when could EK start scheduled services with it?

If Boeing pushed, I expect 2018-2019.
 
astuteman
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
I just don't see where cruising at .86M as opposed to .83M will save fuel.

EK operates 27 of them. They should know

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
But it is not 2.5%-3% per year as Mr. Clark is saying, and the airplane OEMs know this, it is typically anywhere from .25% to 1% per 10,000 flying hours or 5,000 cycles (unless the airplane is damaged). So, EK's 4 year old A-380s are somewhere between 1% and 4% less efficent today than the day they were delivered

If you actually read the article, he states 1% since EIS, which is a different thing altogether.
And certainly fits with the bottom end of your projection.
I suspect a lot more 4 year-old aircraft than just Nancy Bird Walton fit into the "less efficient than that" category..  
Quoting art (Reply 36):
Interesting to hear. Thanks

Wasn't it?  
Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 40):
PIANO-X says that a 569t MTOW/285tOEW version , 60t payload, 7000nm sector burns 188.268t of fuel at M.83 and at M.86, 192.531t

Again, I'd ask how many A380's do PIANO-X fly, compared to Mr. Clark?

Good though it may be, at the end of the day it's a modelling tool. It's not reality x 27

Rgds
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:58 pm

When you are buying, the product sucks. When you own them for awhile and have to eventually sell them, the product is great! Classic buy low. Sell high.
 
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autothrust
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 26):

On one aspect you're wrong... the A380 still has an aluminium frame & skin

The upper shells/skins are GLARE not aluminium.


However anyone has some info about the Wagner Tensions Field?
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
brilondon
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:21 pm

It is the same with your car. Your engine has a maximum efficiency at a certain speed, so the aircraft is more efficient at .86 vs. .83. It also depends on the winds, the actual weight, etc. which I am sure has alot to do with it.
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:40 pm

At least some migratory birds use two "most" efficient airspeeds. One that gives them the least energy expenditure per hour flown, and one that yields the least energy expenditure per distance flown. When they migrate, they use the latter.

Now, what exactly is optimized when the A380 is flown at 0.86 M vs. 0.83 M? Tim Clarke mentions fuel efficiency, but what is the exact metric?


David
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N14AZ
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:32 pm

This is actually not new - Airbus or EK (don't remember who it was) reported about this effect some years ago.
 
Alnicocunife
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting art (Thread starter):
Seems remarkable that the the aircraft burns less fuel at mach 0.86 than at mach 0.83. How does that come about?

Could be similar to the DC-10. When flying .082 or less the tail dropped causing more drag. Flying faster allowed the tail to flight higher (aircraft level in cruise). Less drag, less fuel burned or the same fuel burned but you are moving faster.
 
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RE: A380 Overperforms Says Tim Clark Of EK

Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting Alnicocunife (Reply 48):
Quoting art (Thread starter):
Seems remarkable that the the aircraft burns less fuel at mach 0.86 than at mach 0.83. How does that come about?

Could be similar to the DC-10. When flying .082 or less the tail dropped causing more drag. Flying faster allowed the tail to flight higher (aircraft level in cruise). Less drag, less fuel burned or the same fuel burned but you are moving faster.

Interesting to know but did Douglas give the cruise speed as mach 0.82 whereas the aircraft would burn less fuel cruising from A to B at a higher mach number? I'm confused why Tim Clark mentions A380 is more efficient at mach 0.86 than at mach 0.83 unless this is an overall assessment of all costs and benefits at mach 0.83 versus the same at mach 0.86.

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