User avatar
Alsatian
Topic Author
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 10:19 pm

Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:17 pm

10 routes to be dropped from january 10th and frequency cuts on 9 of 20 other routes :

Ryanair announces 40 percent cuts at Budapest
Ok I am French but I am not on strike
 
bennett123
Posts: 7440
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:56 pm

How long since the big splash following the failure of Malev?.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:27 pm

The accusation that the airport "refused to provide efficient facilities" somehow amuses me. I was there last year and it seemed efficient enough - actually they've closed down one terminal so just the new one is open and even then it was very quiet. There is a bus link to the metro station, a nice design, plenty of comfortable seats, very modern and spacious - I remember thinking at the time that this would be a great place to connect through.
 
krisyyz
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:04 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 2):
The accusation that the airport "refused to provide efficient facilities" somehow amuses me. I was there last year and it seemed efficient enough - actually they've closed down one terminal so just the new one is open and even then it was very quiet. There is a bus link to the metro station, a nice design, plenty of comfortable seats, very modern and spacious - I remember thinking at the time that this would be a great place to connect through.

BUD did everything possible to accommodate FR . They were so wary of the future after MA ceased it's ops that FR basically got whatever they asked for. BUD even built a tent on the tarmac for the winter so FR and some other LCCs could avoid using the terminal for boarding. There is a great article on airportal.hu about the simplified boarding process for FR, W6 and other LCCs at BUD:

http://www.airportal.hu/ap/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10509 (in Hungarian, with pictures)

The only good aspect of FR's downsizing at BUD is the increased possibility of a new Hungarian airline being formed. FR has abandoned BUD in the past so I'm not surprised at this news, I do feel bad for the employees who will lose their jobs because of these cuts. (especially the former MA employees who will face uncertainty for the 2nd time this year).

KrisYYZ
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18974
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:16 am

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 3):
The only good aspect of FR's downsizing at BUD is the increased possibility of a new Hungarian airline being formed. FR has abandoned BUD in the past so I'm not surprised at this news, I do feel bad for the employees who will lose their jobs because of these cuts. (especially the former MA employees who will face uncertainty for the 2nd time this year).

It's just O'Leary's usual strategy to get the airport to reduce their charges. The airport operator has apparently recently announced increases and ATC charges in Hungary are also increasing next year. He has said that FR could change their position on the cutbacks if the charges issues are resolved.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...s-from-Budapest-amid-fees-row.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...nair-hungary-idUSLNE8AL01O20121122
 
qf340500
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:22 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:58 am

i agree with all posts, that plain tactics from MOL to get the airport to lower the charges for him and his 737's. Well, let him move away, its a good move for Wizzair i think, they can expand and they seem to be not so mad like MOL. And yes, what facilities is he talking about??? I bet BUD offers much more facilities than some of the other "aiports on the grass" FR flies to

good for Wizzair, good move from BUD. FR is not the world
 
flyguy89
Posts: 1931
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 5):
i agree with all posts, that plain tactics from MOL to get the airport to lower the charges for him and his 737's.

Well if this is how he wants to proceed he has every right. Unlike some others, I don't see it as morally wrong if MOL wants to take his business elsewhere if he feels BUD isn't catering to him as he'd like; however, from a long-term business prospective I would question these tactics as a shareholder if they, in the long run, allow other carriers to back fill and create more competition for FR.
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:32 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
The airport operator has apparently recently announced increases and ATC charges in Hungary are also increasing next year.

I am surprised it took this long for ATC to increase charges as they have been hit hard after Malev went belly up.



Does anyone know if Wizz Air, or any other airline for that matter, will be increasing frequencies to Budapest after this decision?
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1940
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:23 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 7):
Does anyone know if Wizz Air, or any other airline for that matter, will be increasing frequencies to Budapest after this decision?

SAS will open BUD from Oslo next summer, I believe. Norwegian flies packed aircraft to BUD all year, so there is definetly potential there for SAS.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16003
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:29 am

While many here will disagree, which is fine, FR effectively must reduce the extent of a base or pull out or threat to pull out when airports increase (or threat to increase) airport charges. This is because it cannot allow costs to increase like that as it may well result in unprofitable routes – especially on some of those which are summer-seasonal – when, for all we know, they may already be priced near marginal costs, but more importantly it would set a potentially dangerous precedent to other airports: if FR willingly accepts it, then other facilities may also come to think 'hang on, we can do the same!' It could then start to unravel. Hence, FR must always try to have the upper hand, which is illustrated by it negotiating long-term (5+ years) deals with ground handlers and airports. This firmly sits with its low-price-low-added-value strategic positioning that relies on consistently maintaining very low costs.

[Edited 2012-11-23 01:41:35]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Someone83
Posts: 2935
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:33 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 8):
SAS will open BUD from Oslo next summer

And CPH-BUD. 6x weekly from CPH and 3x weekly from OSL. Both starting March 31
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:55 am

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 10):

Really great to see SAS become more aggressive. Will these flights be operated by B737s or could we see the CRJ from CPH?
 
AdamS
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:22 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:21 am

O'Leary to BUDapest. Source: http://www.airportal.hu

Source: http://www.airportal.hu
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:45 pm

Well, if there is a certain level of demand at Budapest then other airlines will come in to fill the gaps and that's a good thing. Probably quite a few of them would have been nervous about flying to a Ryanair hub. I'd laugh if Easyjet announced a new base! If Ryanair ever comes back in the future, it might find that it doesn't have the airport to itself anymore.
 
User avatar
Vasu
Posts: 2943
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:34 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:00 am

Quoting AdamS (Reply 12):

Hahaha... very good!
 
User avatar
Aquila3
Posts: 496
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:18 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:25 am

If they would be in better shape, this was a succulent opportunity for Austrian to get a little more traffic to VIE.
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:13 pm

Sad news but unavoidable. Fares have been extremely low since FR started, going against Wizzair on many routes. I have said this often this year, one of them had to slash routes sooner or later.

I have flown a record number of FR flights this year because flights are often really not more then 5 euro. A small increase in ATC and airport charges can be the final nail on the coffin, but is not the main reason. Just a nice opportunity to blame someone else. Hungarians in general just don't seem to fly a lot, either business or leisure.
 
nightfox365
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:55 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:39 pm

This is normal Ryanair behaviour, they come in guns blazing, and when things are going well, they reduce their services, now when another airlines comes in to fill those spots, they will come back. They practically make it impossible for an airport to manage without just them, they did it with Shannon. They bully other carriers off the routes.
Flown on: bae146, bn2 islander, 741, A320, A321, A333, A332, MD80, 738
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7039
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:48 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 16):

Fares have been extremely low since FR started.

And you hit the nail on the head. FR had stated in recent financial reports that BUD was under performing.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 16):
A small increase in ATC and airport charges can be the final nail on the coffin.

The main reason is that yields just aren't there for many secondary destinations they operated to.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 9):
FR must always try to have the upper hand

Like in any personal relationship, always insisting on having the upper hand means that there is no long term relationship between airline and suppliers. Constant blaming of a supplier for bad performance of routes doesn't help either.

Quoting nightfox365 (Reply 17):
They practically make it impossible for an airport to manage without just them, they did it with Shannon.

To be fair to Ryanair at Shannon, they tried so many different routes and frequencies. The market just isn't there for them. However, they failed to honour their deal with the airport, so the deal was pulled.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 9):
it would set a potentially dangerous precedent to other airports: if FR willingly accepts it, then other facilities may also come to think 'hang on, we can do the same!'

I presume you agree that this works both ways. Just like Ryanair having to be strict on suppliers, airports also have to ensure that FR live up to their promises, otherwise the Ryanair will just walk all over them - as they do over and over again.

In the example above FR didn't live up to their side of their five year deal with Shannon, so SNN sued them. FR are judge and juror through the press however.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
nightfox365
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:55 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:37 am

If you look at what Ryanair did with Shannon, they made a deal with the airport, then not long after reduced their services, another airline tried to come in, and instantly Ryanair increased its services, and bullied the other airline out. They kept doing this, and it has made it harder for SNN to attract new airlines, for fear of Ryanair bullying them off.
Flown on: bae146, bn2 islander, 741, A320, A321, A333, A332, MD80, 738
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16003
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:08 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 18):
And you hit the nail on the head

I did say:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 9):
already be priced near marginal costs
Quoting bestwestern (Reply 18):
The main reason is that yields just aren't there for many secondary destinations they operated to.

Of course, increased load factors offsets lower yields, i.e. revenue per passenger per mile. But evidently even that wasn't sufficient.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 18):
presume you agree that this works both ways. Just like Ryanair having to be strict on suppliers, airports also have to ensure that FR live up to their promises

Absolutely. If they breach an aspect of their contract, then they could be sued. Equally, if FR delivers what it promises it normally gets a 'success fee' from the airport, per a recent chat with Bernard Berger. Interestingly, he told me the 'deal' he was most pleased with was with CCF, not so much because of the money but because of changing their mindsets to see what could be done - this was, of course, around 15 years ago.

[Edited 2012-11-25 01:09:08]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
dallasnewark
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:33 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:40 am

Does anyone has any info or speculation as to when the new Hungarian National Airline be possibly forming?

I may be in the minority here, but RYANAIR didn't even come close filling the void left by MALEV. I took over 30 MALEV flights in a couple of years prior to their demise and they were a great airline that served a specific purpose.

I wish the new carrier will form soon.
B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16003
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:07 am

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 21):
they were a great airline

But financially dismal.

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 21):
RYANAIR didn't even come close filling the void left by MALEV

Didn't say it would and didn't pretend to. It's not a hub-and-spoke airline. Like Wizz Air, it would have chosen routes that it deemed worth operating, and primarily launching routes to already-served airports by them.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
simpsondude
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:17 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:19 pm

How much is this actually do to with increased charges? Is it not a usual ryanair trait to use this as an excuse to drop under-performing routes?
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 21):
Does anyone has any info or speculation as to when the new Hungarian National Airline be possibly forming?

Haha, never:

1. Malev never made a profit
2. 90% of pax were transfer pax
3. If FR cant make money on a route no one can.
4. Ryanair, Wizzair, Easyjet ( already 6 routes from BUD ) Gemanwings, Transavia and Norwegian will blow a new carrier out of the water.
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 24):
Haha

What is so funny?

Quoting kl911 (Reply 24):
90% of pax were transfer pax

Roughly 50% were.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 24):
If FR cant make money on a route no one can.

You seem quite confident, do you have any proof other airlines competing with Ryanair are actually making a loss?
 
dallasnewark
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:33 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 24):


Haha, never:

1. Malev never made a profit
2. 90% of pax were transfer pax
3. If FR cant make money on a route no one can.
4. Ryanair, Wizzair, Easyjet ( already 6 routes from BUD ) Gemanwings, Transavia and Norwegian will blow a new carrier out of the water.

Let me address all your points

1. That is a baseless statement out of left field, kind of like saying AA has never made a profit

2. Like JU068 correctly pointed out that it was close to 50%. 90% seems ridiculous, that's in the ballpark of DXB and DOH.

3. Another false statement concerning FR. They are not the sign of profitability or how everything should be gauged on. They are a niche airline geared towards backpackers and such. There's a segment of the population that would not even go anywhere near FR jets and avoid it at all costs. And please try to be a bit less biased towards FR so that your statements would seem more or less objective

4. Ryanair, Wizzair, Easyjet - greyhound of the skies, the lack service and other amenities. Germanwings, Transavia, Norwegian, very limited network out of Budapest. If there's eve a national Hungarian carrier that is cost effective and with the right fleet, it will blow out of the water the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet.
B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
 
FlyingAY
Posts: 408
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:26 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 16):
I have flown a record number of FR flights this year because flights are often really not more then 5 euro.
Quoting kl911 (Reply 24):
4. Ryanair, Wizzair, Easyjet ( already 6 routes from BUD ) Gemanwings, Transavia and Norwegian will blow a new carrier out of the water.

None of these is a carrier that I would fly when flying for business. I really hope that BUD would be more serviced by a full service airlines, not these LCCs that business people requiring flexibility would fly. In the past I've paid more than a few times almost 1000 euros when flying HEL-BUD-ATH and back with Malév. But for business I wouldn't fly FR even for 5 euros. It's just not worth the hassle, when your time is money. Actually the corporate travel policies specifically advises against flying FR.

I know in the end it boils down to supply and demand, possibly BUD will not see any new full-service carriers before the economy takes a turn towards the better. If that is how it is, nothing we can do. But we should understand that FR will never be able to fill the void that was left by a full service carrier like MA going bankrupt because FR does not offer the same service that full service carriers do. At least FR found out that their businessmodel doesn't work in BUD either.
 
RyanairGuru
Posts: 6554
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:07 pm

Now you're the one being "ridiculous"

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 26):
that's in the ballpark of DXB and DOH.

EK at DXB is closer to 60%

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 26):
They are a niche airline geared towards backpackers and such

I don't even know what to say to this

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 26):
There's a segment of the population that would not even go anywhere near FR jets and avoid it at all costs.

Yes, but it's a smaller segment than those who will

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 26):
it will blow out of the water the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet.

How much premium demand is there out of BUD? If you can't answer that then you've just killed the case for MA2
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
krisyyz
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:04 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 21):
Does anyone has any info or speculation as to when the new Hungarian National Airline be possibly forming?

I may be in the minority here, but RYANAIR didn't even come close filling the void left by MALEV. I took over 30 MALEV flights in a couple of years prior to their demise and they were a great airline that served a specific purpose.

I wish the new carrier will form soon.

So do I, but it probably won't happen for a long time, if ever. There are a few organizations in Hungary that are working towards attracting private investors and launching a new Hungarian Airline. But until the Hungarian economy recovers and people have more disposable income, there isn't really any need for Hungary to have a national airline of its own. Besides, Wizz is a Hungarian airline and there is no need for a new full service airline to start up operations. LH, KL and BA have that market covered.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 24):
2. 90% of pax were transfer pax

I know that was the case for MA's long-haul ops (JFK, YYZ), not sure about short/medium haul ops.

There is no doubt MA is missed, especially in Hungary and other eastern-European countries, where MA provided a great option for on-wards travel to the west. But FR and other LCC are offering the only viable business approach for travel within Europe from Hungary at the present time. Even the failed rescue plans for MA included the possibility of making MA an LCC, premium demand at BUD is pretty low.

KrisYYZ
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:25 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 28):
I don't even know what to say to this

Well, he might not be that wrong. For example when it comes to Cyprus that is the case. Ryanair is used by young people or people who are going for holidays- in other words zero business traffic.
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16003
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:39 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 30):
when it comes to Cyprus that is the case. Ryanair is used by young people or people who are going for holidays- in other words zero business traffic.

While FR obviously mainly carries leisure passengers, i.e. those travelling for holiday reasons or to visit friends and relatives (VFR), with some high-end leisure travellers such as between London and regional France, it also carries a lot of businesspeople between the UK and Ireland (specifically Dublin). However, it is predominantly a leisure airline.

But who cares? What matters is that its revenues are greater than its costs and that it tries to maximise the difference between the two, and that it highly focuses on pursuing a broad segment – in its instance, leisure – and actively provides what they desir (i.e., little beyond the core elements) and, fundamentally, what they're willing to pay for (i.e., not much beyond the core elements). Their targeted segment ordinarily has a willingness to forego attributes to avail of a lower average price due to their typically high price-elasticity, although the other core air transport components - good on-time performance and few lost bags - are essential.

[Edited 2012-11-27 00:46:00]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations

Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:59 am

Well here is an interesting article on why Ryanair is suspending some routes:

http://www.anna.aero/2012/11/28/ryan...90-anna_nl_281112&utm_medium=email