RAGAZZO777
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Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:58 pm

Iberia is currently studying the possibility of suspending its operations between its MAD hub and Havana, Santo Domingo and San José. Apparently, these 3 long-haul routes aren't profitable enough for IB.


Full story: http://www.preferente.com/noticias-d...o-domingo-y-costa-rica-235052.html
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airbazar
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:05 pm

IB made a huge mistake not ordering A330s 5-6 years ago and now they're paying the price of having to operate their TATL routes with some of the least efficient aircraft there are for these routes.
 
nostrum
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:52 pm

Since IB merged with BA their future looks like a hell. Cutting most of its short-haul routes, reducing their long haul ancient a/c and thousands of job cuts. After the merger, service remains as horrible as before and ancient looking cabins (even in brand new A346s).

Thanks to no competition, they were only good with its Latin American routes, but aren't even good at that anymore. This winter AF offered 10x 77W to HAV and KL offered 3x MD11 (6 extra frequencies in total compared to last year's AF daily), SU offered 5x (compared to last winter's 3x), VS added an extra frequency to HAV as well.
 
runway23
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:53 pm

I have a hard time believing there isn't enough volume to make these flights profitable.

Is this the case of having aircraft that are perhaps too many premium seats on their long haul aircraft? Perhaps a small sub fleet of less premium heavy aircraft would enable them to be profitable on these markets.
 
mfc
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:00 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 3):
Is this the case of having aircraft that are perhaps too many premium seats on their long haul aircraft? Perhaps a small sub fleet of less premium heavy aircraft would enable them to be profitable on these markets.

They already converted 7 A340s to high density configuration for that destinations. 24J+265Y instead of 36J+218Y. Anyway, I have read that they are planning to end PTY, GUA, SJU and SSA too. Nothing about SJO thought...

I have also read that they are thinking about ending MVD, LAX, GIG and LAD. But nothing is sure as the sources are not trustful.
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peterinlisbon
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:02 pm

If they cut the San José route, that's really bad for people that live in Costa Rica - it's the only direct flight they have to Europe and to go via the USA they would need a visa (which most people can't easily get).
 
SCL767
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:06 pm

Quoting MFC (Reply 4):
Anyway, I have read that they are planning to end PTY, GUA, SJU and SSA too.

IB does not serve SSA.

Quoting MFC (Reply 4):
I have also read that they are thinking about ending MVD, LAX, GIG and LAD. But nothing is sure as the sources are not trustful.

Interestingly, it has been mentioned that LATAM is interested in launching GIG-MAD...
 
mfc
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
IB does not serve SSA.

Sorry, I meant SAL, San Salvador. I mess up between that two cities often.
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RCS763AV
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:13 pm

Wow! Of those three the only market which doesn't have heavy demand to Europe would be SDQ. But HAV and SJO?

Quoting nostrum (Reply 2):
Thanks to no competition, they were only good with its Latin American routes, but aren't even good at that anymore. This winter AF offered 10x 77W to HAV and KL offered 3x MD11 (6 extra frequencies in total compared to last year's AF daily), SU offered 5x (compared to last winter's 3x), VS added an extra frequency to HAV as well.

The only competitors that IB have on TATL that have inferior service to them are AR and AA. Every other airline offers a much superior product than Iberia on every market they serve. It's kinda sad, 10 years ago they dictated the market.
 
mfc
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:16 pm

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 5):
If they cut the San José route, that's really bad for people that live in Costa Rica

I don't think they are ending SJO. Iberia CEO said they want to keep all destinations to 7-14 flights a week. Iberia flies daily to SJO, so it isn't on the list. Anyway, this is pure speculation, I thought PTY was profitable and it seems not.
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IrishAyes
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:18 pm

Quoting nostrum (Reply 2):

Since IB merged with BA their future looks like a hell. Cutting most of its short-haul routes, reducing their long haul ancient a/c and thousands of job cuts. After the merger, service remains as horrible as before and ancient looking cabins (even in brand new A346s).

It's not entirely related to the merger. Spain's economy is in dire straights. Also, IB has no one but itself to blame if their Latin American routes are turning out to be a disaster; they have long enjoyed many competitive advantages (geography of the MAD hub, little to no competition, ethnic ties, OneWorld connections, etc) to sustain their long-haul network. Put simply, the airline lost its way and its brand has suffered a a result.
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Polot
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:31 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 8):
Wow! Of those three the only market which doesn't have heavy demand to Europe would be SDQ. But HAV and SJO?

But how much of that traffic is actually high(er) yielding business traffic versus VFR and tourists? (Note I am legitimately asking, not trying to make a point)
 
RAGAZZO777
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:55 pm

Quoting nostrum (Reply 2):
After the merger, service remains as horrible as before and ancient looking cabins (even in brand new A346s).

That's true. Some people, including myself, believed that after the merger IB's customer service and their passenger experience would improve, but alas, this was not the case.


.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 3):
I have a hard time believing there isn't enough volume to make these flights profitable.

I think it's not a matter of volume, but a matter of yields.



.

Quoting MFC (Reply 4):
I have read that they are planning to end PTY, GUA, SJU and SSA too. Nothing about SJO thought...
I have also read that they are thinking about ending MVD, LAX, GIG and LAD. But nothing is sure as the sources are
not trustful.

I have a hard time believing they would end Panama City and San José as they're the richest cities in Central America with a decent premium demand.
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IBERIA747
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:33 am

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Thread starter):
San José
Quoting MFC (Reply 4):
Nothing about SJO thought...
Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 5):
If they cut the San José route, that's really bad for people that live in Costa Rica
Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 8):
SJO?
Quoting MFC (Reply 9):
Iberia flies daily to SJO, so it isn't on the list.

It's SJU that has been mentioned, not SJO. Someone must have mixed the codes when writing that report.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 12):
I have a hard time believing they would end Panama City and San José as they're the richest cities in Central America with a decent premium demand.

Well...actually, the "star" destination for Iberia in Central America (according to IB) has always been GUA (largest city in Central America by far). It has been served without interruption since 1971. San José has only gained more traffic due to leisure (CR has become the most important touristic destination in Central America) as well as connections to MGA, TGU, SAP, end even SAL and GUA, and this seems to be what will save them from being slashed off from Iberia's network while GUA, PTY and SAL will probably be axed.

Premium demand in Central American routes has never been very good.

[Edited 2012-11-22 16:39:33]
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 1):
IB made a huge mistake not ordering A330s 5-6 years ago and now they're paying the price of having to operate their TATL routes with some of the least efficient aircraft there are for these routes.

That would have been a bad plan - consider the particulars of their hub at MAD. It's only recently that the A333 has caught the A343 up in terms of economics and performance from hot/high airports, which is why they went with the four engine types in the first place. An A332 could have been used, but that would have been a drop in capacity and at the time Spain's economy wasn't in melt-down.


Dan  
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RAGAZZO777
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:38 am

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 13):
It's SJU and NOT SJO that has been mentioned.

Well, that makes sense. Thanks for correcting the news article.

[Edited 2012-11-22 16:39:36]
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laca773
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:27 am

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 12):
That's true. Some people, including myself, believed that after the merger IB's customer service and their passenger experience would improve, but alas, this was not the case.

I think many of us thought we would see IAG go in there and do an overhaul to IB's hard and soft products, including their inconsistent cabin crews. Clearly this has happened. Perhaps they have put off doing anything until they decide what they were going to have to do with a/c and routes first before committing millions of euros to fix their ancient products.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 14):
That would have been a bad plan - consider the particulars of their hub at MAD. It's only recently that the A333 has caught the A343 up in terms of economics and performance from hot/high airports, which is why they went with the four engine types in the first place. An A332 could have been used, but that would have been a drop in capacity and at the time Spain's economy wasn't in melt-down.

I know it's too late now, but why didn't IB go with 767/777s instead? It would seem they would have been a good fit for the international flying they do,.

Thoughts about IAG adding 777/787s to the IB fleet?
 
AA767LOVER
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:34 am

Well, how are load factors on SJO? Last time I saw, in April, the whole departures lounge at Gate 2 was completely full. I was greatly encouraged to see this. It was really stunning seeing an IB 346 given that I live in HKG. The only 346 coming this way is VS.
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avi8
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:50 am

I hear GUA is doing excellent. I doubt it will be axed. GUA is the largest city in Central America. I also doubt SJO will be axed as SJO is a huge turist destination. Maybe not SJO but Costa Rica as a country
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AR385
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:22 am

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 5):
f they cut the San José route, that's really bad for people that live in Costa Rica - it's the only direct flight they have to Europe and to go via the USA they would need a visa (which most people can't easily get).

They can always fly to MEX with AM and connect seamlessly to MAD. Same with AV at BOG.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 12):
I have a hard time believing they would end Panama City and San José as they're the richest cities in Central America with a decent premium demand.
Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 13):
Premium demand in Central American routes has never been very good.

Exactly. Those routes have always been about ethnic and VFR traffic, which tends to be the lowest yielding. Otherwise CM and TA would have already launched TATL flights. Maybe if IB configured a few A343s as economy only, high density, Central America may work.

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 13):
It's SJU that has been mentioned, not SJO. Someone must have mixed the codes when writing that report.

Oh. That makes sense. Still, SJO remains mostly a toruist market.
 
yellowtail
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:36 am

The real problem lies with SAL.....GUA does well but has runway length / altitude issues so they need a triangle route. Perhaps they should move it to SAP...

Quoting MFC (Reply 4):
I have read that they are planning to end PTY, GUA, SJU and SSA too. Nothing about SJO thought...

Then why did they increase PTY last year? SJO is going nowhere...that flight does well.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 5):
If they cut the San José route, that's really bad for people that live in Costa Rica - it's the only direct flight they have to Europe and to go via the USA they would need a visa (which most people can't easily get).

o, boo hoo....they would suffer like the rest of us!  
Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 12):
I have a hard time believing they would end Panama City and San José as they're the richest cities in Central America with a decent premium demand.


Not to mention in PTY, Minister Salo would bust out the checkbook to keep them as it was him that busted out the checkbook in the first place to decouple MAD-GUA-PTY and make it dedicated. Lotta pride there.
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:39 am

Quoting laca773 (Reply 16):
I know it's too late now, but why didn't IB go with 767/777s instead? It would seem they would have been a good fit for the international flying they do,.

For largely the same reason; in hot and high conditions the advantage big twins have over quads is compromised - this was especially the case when IB ordered their first A340s. Also the 767 would have been a little small. It's not such a problem if you have one or two airports in your network where a twin won't perform as well as a quad, but when it's your home airport you need to make decisions around that factor. This is also why SAA went for the A340, because JNB is considerably higher than MAD.


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cosyr
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:25 am

Maybe, they should add a couple extra daily flights to MIA, and AA can add some additional flights from MIA to each of these destinations (except HAV obviously). Maybe it would even be possible to do a Joint Venture from MIA to central America and Caribbean.
 
danimarroquin
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:30 am

Sounds to me for a great opportunity for AV to bring a A330 to SJO and cover the route .
 
AR385
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting danimarroquin (Reply 23):
Sounds to me for a great opportunity for AV to bring a A330 to SJO and cover the route .

Exactly. Same good opportunity for AM, but how are the bilaterals structured for this?
 
PHX787
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:18 am

Quoting runway23 (Reply 3):
I have a hard time believing there isn't enough volume to make these flights profitable.
Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 12):
I think it's not a matter of volume, but a matter of yields.

It's a combination: If this was Spain, during their economic boom, we wouldn't be talking about this. Spain has 50%-something unemployment, and these are services to some rather poorer countries, in comparison and relation. Sure they can fill the plane, but at what price? the A346, coupled with pared-down fares to actually fill the planes with customers able to afford the flights, coupled with the fact that Spain is taxing the living jesus out of anything moving right now....yeah, it is hell over at IB right now.
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:30 am

Maybe they need to do what they did back in the 1990s when IB had the hub at MIA. I believe IB used to base 2-3 MD-87s at MIA and bring in an extra A340 or 747 from MAD and send the MD-87s to South America from MIA. Maybe they need to bring in an extra A340 earlier in the day and base 3-4 A319s at MIA to feed to the Carribean routes. Air France is currently doing it to Port Au Prince with an A320 out of MIA
 
danimarroquin
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:43 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 24):

well I think more for AV , since TA will disappear and become AV and SJO is the new central America connection center for Star alliance , sounds like a better deal for AV to operate the route then AM . AV colombia will received the firsts 787s around 2014 and will be spreading there A330s around central America , Brazil and PERU . LIM already received the first A330 and will be flying to Madrid soon !!!!
 
RAGAZZO777
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:15 am

Quoting cosyr (Reply 22):
Maybe, they should add a couple extra daily flights to MIA, and AA can add some additional flights from MIA to each of these destinations (except HAV obviously).
Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 26):
Maybe they need to do what they did back in the 1990s when IB had the hub at MIA. I believe IB used to base 2-3 MD-87s at MIA and bring in an extra A340 or 747 from MAD and send the MD-87s to South America from MIA.

Not gonna work. You do remember that Latin Americans need a regular US Visa just to transit any US airport, right ?


As for basing a single A330 at SJO to fly TATL, that doesn't sound like a good idea. I think AV would rather prefer Central Americans to fly to Europe via its BOG hub.
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fraapproach
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:24 am

I flew MAD-SJO-MAD in March / April this year on A 346. Inbound I got upgraded to business and next to me was the only empty seat on the whole plane. Return was likewise full (but no upgrade). On this trip I read in the Iberia onboard magazine that IB wanted to go all days full year A346 on the MAD-SJO route (was a mix of A346 and 343 before).

Considering the short runway with only one takeoff direction and the cliff at the end of the runway I felt quite comfortable in a fourholer. There is not a lot of margin for errors taking off / landing in SJO with a widebody.

[Edited 2012-11-22 23:37:40]
 
santos
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:32 am

I read online that Iberia says only 8 of 24 long-haul routes and 2 of 40 domestic routes are profitable.
If this is true, some routes will have to be cut to "save" the airline.
 
Summa767
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:35 am

Quoting danimarroquin (Reply 27):
well I think more for AV , since TA will disappear and become AV and SJO is the new central America connection center for Star alliance , sounds like a better deal for AV to operate the route then AM

First of all, the original article does NOT mention SJO as being one of the destinations to be cut: It mentions SJU.
Second of all, AV has no spare aircraft at the moment, and indeed i only has one A330 to come next year to be based in LIM, which will only just about be enough to serve MIA.
Third, AM cannot operate flights from SJO o MAD, but the implication is that they pax can connect!

Anyway, IB needs to do some cutting, and the lower yielding routes such as Santo Domingo and Havana that may well have to go, at least until the company gets a grip on the cost base.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:58 am

Considering IAG just 2-weeks ago stated they will remove 25 aircraft from IB this winter including 5 long-haul birds, its only natural the bottom performing long-haul markets will get the axe. There simply are not enough birds to operate the current network.
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LH506
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:37 am

I guess another reason is that IB has more and more competition on its routes compared to a couple of years ago:

Just some examples of airlines adding Latin American cities recently.
HAV: AF, KL, VS...
PTY: KL
BOG: LH
LIM: AF
GIG: LH, AZ, QR?, EK?, KL, BA
GRU: TK, EK, QR
EZE: BA (non-stop), KL

Having an inferior product, means that you lose high yielding (connecting) traffic.

Now I believe this will only get worse.

It is matter of time until either CM, AV or LH will start LIM or SJO or PTY to FRA/MAD. By that more high yielding *A traffic will move away. Curently they do not have an alternative.

It is a matter of time until EK, TK or QR will start MEX, CCS, BOG, LIM, SCL, PTY...
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r2rho
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:42 am

The A340's are not the reason, despite a.net myths - high labor costs (remaining internal structures from the government-monopoly days, low productivity, etc) are IMO. The A330's (which only today can perform routes that were not possible when IB bought their A340's for very good reason) will help to increase profitability, but they are not a silver bullet. And it is not being said that these routes are not profitable, but not profitable enough.

I wonder what will be of IB with the severe cuts announced with no real known recovery plan. I would have expected the cuts to happen in North America, handing the routes to BA-AA, but not in LatAm. IB without LatAm is nothing. If they retreat from there, they will hand over the market to LAN-TAM and Avianca-TACA, and may never gain it back again.
 
migair54
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:25 pm

IB dig their on grave during all this years offering far more inferior product and ignoring the paxs, so now they will pay the consequences, I used to fly MAD-HAV and as soon as UX introduce the A330 I started flying with them, 10 hours in a IB plane is a pain but at least in UX (it´s not much better) I could enjoy watching movies and the planes where more comfortable. Services is the same by the way.

I guess some of the A333 joining soon will operate this routes exactly, but this is also a descend in the yields given the big economical crisis Spain is suffering as well.

Soon LAN will be flying a state of the art B787 with all the entertainment, comfort levels and on board new products to MAD and IB will be flying an almost 20 year old A340 to SCL, if you compare after flying both, what would you do next to fly the route again??, it´s an easy answer.

Quoting LH506 (Reply 33):
It is a matter of time until EK, TK or QR will start MEX, CCS, BOG, LIM, SCL, PTY...

In my opinion this will hurt much more to AF, BA and LH than IB because middle east carriers will steal pax flying to Asia and IB don´t go there that much, only TLV, CAI and DME could be affected a bit.

Quoting santos (Reply 30):
I read online that Iberia says only 8 of 24 long-haul routes and 2 of 40 domestic routes are profitable.
If this is true, some routes will have to be cut to "save" the airline.

If this is true it is better they close down and start on another business....

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 26):
Maybe they need to do what they did back in the 1990s when IB had the hub at MIA. I believe IB used to base 2-3 MD-87s at MIA and bring in an extra A340 or 747 from MAD and send the MD-87s to South America from MIA. Maybe they need to bring in an extra A340 earlier in the day and base 3-4 A319s at MIA to feed to the Carribean routes. Air France is currently doing it to Port Au Prince with an A320 out of MIA

That was close because of the problems for many people connecting to Central America to obtain a transit visa, but i think IB could start a codeshare with an airline like Cubana and send pax to some caribbean and central America destinations using HAV, a place where they can grow together and sooner or later Cuba will have a big boom in the air travelling, so getting positions now will give them a nice advantage. Places, like Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras, Yucatan, Haiti, El salvador, Cuba, they can be serve from HAV with Cubana and Aerocaribbean if they make an effort to work out the schedules and using IB and CU metal.
I know it´s difficult but given COPA and TACA are already taken, Mexicana gone, what else is left in the zone???
 
AF086
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting LH506 (Reply 33):
Just some examples of airlines adding Latin American cities recently.

GIG: LH, AZ, QR?, EK?, KL, BA

Having an inferior product, means that you lose high yielding (connecting) traffic.
BA wasn't a new carrier. They have been serving GIG continously for decades. The change made a few years ago was, like EZE, the change to a dedicated nonstop service.

QR didn't start GIG yet. Romours are circulating for quite some time. And EK did begin GIG last year.

As far as GIG is concerned IB has two major "yield killers": the inferior product and the lousy and inconsistent schedule. IB keeps changing it every other month!

So far it is:

IB6025 MAD 1135 1925 GIG 343/346 SaSu
IB6025 MAD 1245 2035 GIG 343/346 TuThFr
IB6027 MAD 1325 2115 GIG 343/346 Mo

IB6026 GIG 0055 1405 MAD 343/346 TuWeFrSa
IB6024 GIG 2055 1005 MAD 343/346 SaSu

It is VERY hard to prevail with this commitment to the market. It is known that redeye flights both ways attact higher yields, hence LH that recently changed their GIG schedule from daylight/redeye to redeye/redeye.

BA, for that matter, also have a bad schedule at GIG but they don't keep changing the number of weekly flights and schedules every other month or so. BA could use a redeye/redeye service as well given their more premium approach but I guess LHR slots are the catch there.

[Edited 2012-11-23 05:16:02]
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
yellowtail
Posts: 3708
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:39 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 26):
used to base 2-3 MD-87s at MIA and bring in an extra A340 or 747 from MAD and send the MD-87s to South America from MIA. Maybe they need to bring in an extra A340 earlier in the day and base 3-4 A319s at MIA to feed to the Carribean routes.

And what do they do with the aircraft after this run.....untilization of 5 hours per day jsut won't cut it. I used to to see the IB MD sit on the tarmac in GUA for long periods every day and all night.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 28):
Not gonna work. You do remember that Latin Americans need a regular US Visa just to transit any US airport, right ?

Well it can if there is no other choice. I get my 10yr visa to go thru MIA on my way to Europe. Also the vast majority of those that can fly to Europe can get a US visa. Its a hassle yes, US FIS is a hassel yes, but will it stop us.....no.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
airbazar
Posts: 6799
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:47 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 14):
That would have been a bad plan - consider the particulars of their hub at MAD. It's only recently that the A333 has caught the A343 up in terms of economics and performance from hot/high airports, which is why they went with the four engine types in the first place. An A332 could have been used, but that would have been a drop in capacity and at the time Spain's economy wasn't in melt-down.

That's all true but for much older variants. Not for 2006-2007 and newer A333s.
They desperately need A333's now and have needed them for about 5 years when oil prices really started to go up. These A333's would have been very helpful for N.American routes like BOS, IAD, ORD, HAV, SDQ, SJU, MIA.
They finally ordered some A333's last year. Lets hope that's not too little too late. Considering they don't have any A350's or 787's on order yet, that means they will be operating A330/A340's when most of the competition will be flying A350's/787's and the price of fuel shows no signs of going down.
One last thing. A drop in capacity operated at a profit is still better than a larger plane operated at a loss, which is what is happening with some of the A340 routes.
 
LH506
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:38 pm

Quoting AF086 (Reply 36):
BA wasn't a new carrier. They have been serving GIG continously for decades. The change made a few years ago was, like EZE, the change to a dedicated nonstop service

I always thought that BA came back to GIG two or three years ago, after having it discontinued for many years. They were one of the first to return during the GIG hype. AZ, LH and KL followed. But then I am not 100% sure.
NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 788 300B2 300B4 345 359 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
danimarroquin
Posts: 239
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 31):

My friend read the article well ..... is SJO " costa rica " not SJU !!!!! TA's first N279AV A330 is already at LIM with the SA colors and getting ready for operations to US and BOG . MAD will be ready for next year are the plans , and of course AV has no planes now ! In order for AV to spare the plane , it will receive the extra A330 that gets deliver next year and the 787s will start to arrived on 2014 making the wide body fleet larger .

[Edited 2012-11-23 07:58:23]

[Edited 2012-11-23 07:59:33]
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 842
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:14 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
They can always fly to MEX with AM and connect seamlessly to MAD. Same with AV at BOG.

Sure, but those options both add 3 hours of flying time and Avianca / Mexican don't offer many destinations in Europe (Iberia can get you almost anywhere). Plus I imagine, with less competitions prices will skyrocket and they are already ridiculous.
 
AF086
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting LH506 (Reply 39):
I always thought that BA came back to GIG two or three years ago, after having it discontinued for many years. They were one of the first to return during the GIG hype. AZ, LH and KL followed. But then I am not 100% sure.

I am 100% sure. BA serves GIG continously for decades since British Caledonian, actually IIRC. Until a few years ago BA flew LHR-GRU-GIG 3x weekly and LHR-GRU-EZE 4x weekly. First with the 772 then with the 744. Then it became LHR-GIG 3x weekly daylight/redeye with the 772 and LHR-GRU-EZE daily with the 744. Then they separated EZE.

Nowdays BA flies LHR-GIG 6x weekly daylight/redeye with the 772.

LH, KL and AZ served GIG for decades as well but discontinued the service resuming their services a bit more than a year ago (AZ first then LH and after KL).
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danimarroquin
Posts: 239
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 41):

well the idea is that if IB decides to leave SJO , AV would transfer one of the A330s to SJO like it did with LIM . since TA name will go away and become AV , people wont have to fly to BOG to get to the flight to MAD in order to fly on AV . AV is a member of the SA and the owner of TAP " by then " , which would make great connections in europe with TAP , LH and other star alliance members in Europe .
 
mfc
Posts: 331
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:23 pm

Iberia is working on improving their inflight and ground service. A346s will start to be retrofitted on December with new Business Plus and Economy (with PTVs) cabins. The chosen seats are:
- Sogerma Solstys for Business Plus ( which can be found on Alitalia or Etihad planes)
- Weber 5751 for Economy Class ( http://www.weberair.com/seating-systems/economy-class.htm# )

IFE system will be Panasonic. A330s will be delivered with that seats.

If I had to choose between flying in Economy to SCL on a LAN's 787 or on an Iberia's 346 with the new interior, I would go for the later, no matter how modern the 787 were, and just for a simply reason: 3-3-3 cramped configuration on the 787 vs. 2-4-2 on the 346.
So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
 
LAXintl
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 34):
The A340's are not the reason, despite a.net myths

Well at the November 9th meeting when the IB transformation plan was revealed one of the two bullet point challenges in the longhaul network listed in their presentation was.

"A340 fleet cost"

Additionally later they again made mention the A340 fleet leaves IB with "gap in cost and product"


So the A340s are certainly part of the problem.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
AA767400
Posts: 1889
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 31):
First of all, the original article does NOT mention SJO as being one of the destinations to be cut: It mentions SJU.

Which is weird because that would mean they want to eliminate all their Caribbean services. However - unlike HAV/SDQ, SJU has no other direct flights to Europe, which IB has no competition on.

Quoting danimarroquin (Reply 40):
My friend read the article well ..... is SJO " costa rica " not SJU !!!!!

Interesting indeed.

Out of the three Caribbean destinations, SJU would be the most profitable IMHO. A sheer monopoly, with a stronger currency, and viable cruise ship/tourist factor. SDQ/HAV has several other airlines undercutting IB, with generally lower yielding all-inclusive resorts.

Time shall tell...
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:01 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 38):
That's all true but for much older variants. Not for 2006-2007 and newer A333s.

It was more recently than that according to my sources. The A333 has been suitable for some routes for a while but until recent upgrades (aside of HGW variant) it didn't significantly outperform the A343 on enough to make it worthwhile. Yes the A333 burns less fuel, but the A343 could lift more payload.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 38):
They desperately need A333's now and have needed them for about 5 years when oil prices really started to go up. These A333's would have been very helpful for N.American routes like BOS, IAD, ORD, HAV, SDQ, SJU, MIA.

Yes and no. Something like the A333HGW would sound ideal for IB, but they've not gone for it, apparently because they wouldn't come close to being able to use the extra weight or range out of MAD.


Dan  
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regupilot
Posts: 452
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:45 pm

RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting danimarroquin (Reply 40):
My friend read the article well ..... is SJO " costa rica " not SJU !!!!!

Being from Colombia, I am sure you do read Spanish well. In this copy paste, it mentions SAN JUAN PUERTO RICO way too clearly.

Quote:
Iberia está estudiando dejar de volar desde Madrid hacia La Habana (Cuba), Santo Domingo (República Dominicana) y San Juan (Puerto Rico), según han asegurado a preferente.com fuentes del sector. El motivo es la baja rentabilidad de estas conexiones.
Quoting AA767400 (Reply 46):
Out of the three Caribbean destinations, SJU would be the most profitable IMHO.

I'm not sure if this is true. I haven't flown the route but, even though it is the only direct flight, locals and visitors have waaayy tooo many options to choose from at lower prices by connecting through mainland USA. Remember Puertorricans need no visa to visit Spain, much less to connect through USA. Same for Spaniards. They don't even fly daily to SJU. While visiting Spain, I noticed few people knew about Puerto Rico. By comparison, the Dominican Republic was advertised as a paradise island everywhere and people did knew about so, I'm surprised about SDQ. Sometimes they even have 2 flights a day to the island. At the end, I guess competition is the issue... people could go direct with Air Europa or go through France or Germany without stepping on USA land, which would pose visa issues to Dominicans.
 
miaskies
Posts: 1231
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:08 am

RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services

Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting regupilot (Reply 48):

In essence IB does not need SJU anymore. Perhaps in the stronger days of the massive AA/AE hub operation at SJU it worked but not anymore. IB can easily route Spain bound passengers via MIA (AA Kingdom) who has non stop service to Madrid and Barcelona on AA and of course non stop service to Madrid on IB. An extra stop for passengers? yes, but business wise perhaps it is a smarter move. While SJU has been served for many years due to the cultural ties (as in Cuba), the market now a days has changed, Spain's economy is not doing very well as is that of Puerto Rico.

I would be shocked to see SDQ pulled, perhaps reducing flights but not pulling out overall. Have they or ever considered serving PUJ instead?
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