CRJ900X
Topic Author
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:47 am

Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:32 pm

An interesting article regarding the dissapointment of Estonian in the CRJ900 aircraft.

Link: http://www.canadianbusiness.com/arti...s-claim-that-crj900s-uncompetitive

I am a little confused by the article, is Estonian planning on selling the recently ordered Embraer 190's or are they still trying to off load the CRJ900's?

It is odd that the Estonian CEO would be publicly complaining about the CRJ900's if he is trying to get someone to take over the leases.

Estonian must be wasting a ton of money operating Embraer 170's alongside CRJ900's with the associated training, parts, etc.

Wasn't Bombardier taking Estonian Air to court over items related to the CRJ900 sale. Any insights?

Hopefully this thread will not turn into a CRJ bashing exercise, as in certian missions, it seems to be a great machine.

Cheers,
CRJ900X
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:43 pm

Maybe a DL Connection airline can grab these birds cheap. How many CR9s does Estonian have?
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
vfw614
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RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:24 am

As far as I understand the article, Estonian prefers to dump the CRJ900s but instead has to dispose of the Embraer 170s as these are - allegedly - easier to off-load on the market. I am not sure if I am buying that - the Embraer 170s has not see great sales recently. Closer to the truth is probably that given its small overall size the fleet ideally would consist of a E170/E190 mix.
 
prebennorholm
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Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:15 am

Those three CRJ900's were part of the deal when SAS skipped their Q400's following their landing gear incidents. They were more or less stuffed down the throat of Estonian Air. SAS has since sold most of their stake in Estonian Air to the Estonian state and now holds only 10%.

Quote from the link: "He [Estonian Air's CEO] said the 88-seat CRJs are not competitive in a market best suited for planes with less than 80 seats."

I agree with that. SAS has the same 88 seat cabin configuration. It is the most horribly cramped cabin I have ever experienced. There is no LCC - not even Ryanair - which packs their customers like that.

They should just remove some seat rows and make it a roughly 75 seat plane. Then half of the potential customers, who now take the fast ferry from Tallinn to Helsinki to make their journey on Finnair Airbiis, might use their local airline instead.

The very narrow seats are not fully compensated by more legroom, but for most people it would make it a lot more bearable.

For SAS exactly the same is true. But they at least chose the plane and its cabin configuration themselves.

Estonian Air flies to little more than a handful of destinations. Therefore a great part of their local customers will always have to make minimum two legs to reach their destination. Going to just Helsinki first, they have many more direct destinations. Therefore Estonian Air has to be comfort wise at least competitive with Finnair (or a lot cheaper than Finnair). That is simply not the case with an 88 seat CRJ900, even if the plane as such (except for the cabin configuration) is a fine plane.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:16 pm

The bottom line of Estonian Air isn't good, so the best is, they dump all their aircraft and blame the CEO instead of blaming aircraft which other airlines can use very successful.

The problem with Estonian air seem that they can not attract passengers to fly with them. They getting attacked by Ryanair, FlyBE, Finnair etc. in their market. May be the reason for the poor performance is that Estonian doesn't offer any connecting flights and futher more the prices they offer are always the highest.
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B747forever
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RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 1):
How many CR9s does Estonian have?

They operate 3 CR9s.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
jfidler
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 3:32 pm

RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:41 pm

I think this has very little to do with the plane, and it's more of an excuse.

When they bought the plane, the CEO at the time (so that's 2 CEOs ago) was praising its features:

Quote:

“This is a fundamental step for our company. We are upgrading our fleet with smaller aircraft that better meet Estonia’s market demands and enable us to improve our flight schedule as well as open new destinations,” said Andrus Aljas, Estonian Air President and CEO.

(Source)

and here is what another previous CEO (the one who left recently) said just a year ago:

Quote:

“Bombardier aircraft have been showing very good operational results so far and have proven to be most ecological and economical aircraft of its size. They are extremely quiet and comfortable, and the most economical and ecological jets of that size. In fact, they have been proven to consume 4% less fuel than originally budgeted,” said Tero Taskila, the CEO of Estonian Air.

(Source)

So, did the plane's operational features and performance change so drastically in the last 1 year? I doubt it.

I've flown all models of OV's planes, and I found the CRJ900 was perfectly fine, and a welcome upgrade from all their other fleet, which is older.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15456
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RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:12 pm

Is he really slamming the aircraft or just commenting that the CR9 isn't right for OV's network, which is totally believable? The local market is small and the connecting market can only compete on price, since OV is surrounded by much larger and more comprehensive hubs--the CR9 unit costs can't compete with a similar mainline connection at a neighboring hub.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Someone83
Posts: 3117
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:13 am

The only issue OV has had with the CRJ was that they weren't able to finance them. And when others threw some E-170 at them, financing was no longer an issue
 
smbukas
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:17 am

RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:48 am

With reduced schedule for Summer 2013, we see that all Estonian Air flights are scheduled to operate with CRJ900.

Does it mean, that for now they are going to return Embaer's to lessors (I think it is Finnair main lessor) and operate CRJs for now? I think, that they are going on CRJ900 for now, but they are not sure, what to do in 2014-2015 when purchased E170/175 are going to arrive.
 
traveler_7
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 12:45 am

RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:06 am

Quoting smbukas (Reply 9):
With reduced schedule for Summer 2013, we see that all Estonian Air flights are scheduled to operate with CRJ900.

Does it mean, that for now they are going to return Embaer's to lessors (I think it is Finnair main lessor) and operate CRJs for now? I think, that they are going on CRJ900 for now, but they are not sure, what to do in 2014-2015 when purchased E170/175 are going to arrive.

In the local press it was reported many times that OV is going to continue with just 5 aircraft. In the beginning of December they should present details of their strategy, so most probably fleet question is clarified. I wonder my self about fleet details especially Embraer 195 which was supposed to join the fleet in early 2013.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:17 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 3):
Then half of the potential customers, who now take the fast ferry from Tallinn to Helsinki to make their journey on Finnair Airbiis, might use their local airline instead.

Who cares about legroom in less than 1 hour flight? I would gladly take such a flight even with no seat at all.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
smbukas
Posts: 289
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:17 am

RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:31 am

Quoting traveler_7 (Reply 10):
In the local press it was reported many times that OV is going to continue with just 5 aircraft.

Yes, that seams correct. I just took already published schedule for 2013 and I see, that schedule is tailored for 5 CRJ900 aircrafts (actually, all flights are now scheduled to operate with CRJ900).

AMS - 14x weekly;
BRU - 11x weekly;
CPH - 19x weekly;
KBP - 7x weekly;
SVO - 7x weekly;
NCE - 1x weekly;
OSL - 13x weekly;
LED - 7x weekly;
ARN - 25x weekly;
VNO - 16x weekly;
TRD - 2x weekly.

For holiday season (July-August) capacity from VNO and ARN routes go to SVO and LED to operate them with up to 3x daily, but in September SVO and LED is 1x daily again.


So I am not sure, but this might be the strategy. Anyway, they should announce their fleet strategy.
 
traveler_7
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 12:45 am

RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:32 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11):
Who cares about legroom in less than 1 hour flight? I would gladly take such a flight even with no seat at all.

I took once OV flight to AMS on CRJ 900 and legroom was more or less, cabin did not offer enough space for cabin luggage.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 3):
They should just remove some seat rows and make it a roughly 75 seat plane. Then half of the potential customers, who now take the fast ferry from Tallinn to Helsinki to make their journey on Finnair Airbiis, might use their local airline instead.

This is essentially what Jazz did. The CRJ-705s are just CRJ-900s certified for 75 passengers. Lots of legroom and a pretty comfortable aircraft compared to the original CRJs.
 
b735
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:28 pm

RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:27 pm

I am flying 4-6 sectors on Estonian Air every month and consequently had many flights on all aircraft in their fleet, from the good old B735/B733 to the E170, CRJ900 and the SAAB 340.

For a number of reasons I am in favor of the E170 vs the CRJ, all points from the passenger point of view:

- Main reason: it connects to the terminal finger for boarding.
- bigger overhead space
- slightly wider seats (at least it feels that way)
- bigger windows

In general just more comfortable that the CRJ900. Now, the CRJ900 is a gorgeous and comfortable aircraft also and very quiet if you're seated in front, just a slight advantage to the E-jet.

Upcoming summer schedule seem to be a mess right now. Only last week the timetable showed that the summer '13 flights would be operated by an all E170 fleet. Not sure even OV know what is head and what is tail these days...

Well. I am only hoping that if the go with the CRJ fleet, they will take back the original livery and not the revised livery which was introduced on the E170...

Anyhow, it is a shame... I really hope they get their act together and make it through...
 
traveler_7
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 12:45 am

RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting B735 (Reply 15):
Upcoming summer schedule seem to be a mess right now. Only last week the timetable showed that the summer '13 flights would be operated by an all E170 fleet. Not sure even OV know what is head and what is tail these days...

looks like it is wise to wait until OV will announce their plans in the beginning of December.

Quoting B735 (Reply 15):
For a number of reasons I am in favor of the E170 vs the CRJ, all points from the passenger point of view:
Quoting B735 (Reply 15):
Well. I am only hoping that if the go with the CRJ fleet, they will take back the original livery and not the revised livery which was introduced on the E170...

Personally I hope that they will go with Embraers, first using E170 leased from AY and later replace them with a mixture of 175 and 195.
 
winstonlegthigh
Posts: 139
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:15 pm

RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting jfidler (Reply 6):
I think this has very little to do with the plane, and it's more of an excuse.

When they bought the plane, the CEO at the time (so that's 2 CEOs ago) was praising its features:

Quote:

“This is a fundamental step for our company. We are upgrading our fleet with smaller aircraft that better meet Estonia’s market demands and enable us to improve our flight schedule as well as open new destinations,” said Andrus Aljas, Estonian Air President and CEO.

(Source)

and here is what another previous CEO (the one who left recently) said just a year ago:

Quote:

“Bombardier aircraft have been showing very good operational results so far and have proven to be most ecological and economical aircraft of its size. They are extremely quiet and comfortable, and the most economical and ecological jets of that size. In fact, they have been proven to consume 4% less fuel than originally budgeted,” said Tero Taskila, the CEO of Estonian Air.

(Source)

So, did the plane's operational features and performance change so drastically in the last 1 year? I doubt it.

I've flown all models of OV's planes, and I found the CRJ900 was perfectly fine, and a welcome upgrade from all their other fleet, which is older.

Almost universally, that which a CEO says is spun to be self-serving. Not disagreeing with you, as I'm unfamiliar with Estonian Air, but I regard any CEO's words as whipped cream on top of a cake- the ingredients of which are numbers and data of the company at the time the statement is made.
Never has gravity been so uplifting.
 
traveler_7
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 12:45 am

RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:59 am

I re read the interview with new CEO of Estonian Air
http://www.e24.ee/1050656/jan-palm-r...nulli-joudmine-oleks-hea-saavutus/
Sorry in Estonian only.
In his interview he states that unless OV will be able to sell remaining CRJ's they will continue to operate them, and since selling Bombardiers is not an easy task it is probable that they continue to operate them. New strategy needs 5 planes so either they will find two more bombardiers, or will have to continue with mixed fleet.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3194
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's

Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:03 pm

Quoting traveler_7 (Reply 18):
In his interview he states that unless OV will be able to sell remaining CRJ's they will continue to operate them, and since selling Bombardiers is not an easy task it is probable that they continue to operate them.

Not exactly a great sales strategy to publicly moan over and over again about the stuff you are hoping to sell...

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