deaphen
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Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:49 am

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/chann...summons-boeing-brass-poor-787s-029
"Unhappy with the performance of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner” aircraft due to “recurring technical snags”, a furious civil aviation ministry and Air India have summoned Boeing Corporation’s top brass to India, top aviation sources told this newspaper.

Sources said of the three Dreamliners received so far, one or the other aircraft is usually grounded at a time due to some snag. Such snags in new aircraft have puzzled the airline."

What next?
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slinky09
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:51 am

What next?

More grandstanding to draw attention from their own mismanagement, fraud, poor industrial relations and what should be a dead duck airline perhaps?
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:55 am

Shocker... Is anyone else not surprised by this?
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
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RWA380
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:59 am

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 2):
Shocker... Is anyone else not surprised by this?

At least AI is consistent in it's never ending whining about their aircraft. I'm surprised so little, that it is not measurable.  Wow!
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dbo861
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:01 am

And they wonder why no one wants to do business with them..(e.g. no takers for their 77Ls)
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:02 am

I assume AI knew that they were taking delivery o a new aircraft type which usually encounters early operational issues, The A380 had them and I assume the A350 will too.

Funny how no-one else seems to have these problems.....maybe the Japanese are too discrete?

[Edited 2012-11-24 03:16:37]
 
babybus
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:11 am

All aircraft have settling in problems. Sometimes they fly for months with back-crew and specialist engineers.

Has any airline actually sung the praises of the 787?

Time for Boeing to get their spin guys out.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
1stfl94
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:27 am

Interestingly, in the article Air India seems to be comparing the 787 EIS with the 777, ignoring the fact that AI didn't take the 777 until the aircraft had been in service for over 10 years, by which time the early snags had been ironed out.

I wonder how much compensation AI is going for, or will Boeing try and buy them back and offer them to someone else!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:27 am

It depends on the type of snags encountered.....are these flt operationally induced or maintenance induced....do other operators with similiar type aircraft have them too.....that will indicate the reason.
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AA737-823
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:31 am

Quoting babybus (Reply 6):
Has any airline actually sung the praises of the 787?

ANA has, particularly regarding the efficiency of the aircraft being better than expected. I don't have a link, off the top of my head, but it's in the forum.

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 7):
I wonder how much compensation AI is going for, or will Boeing try and buy them back and offer them to someone else!

In my useless opinion, Boeing would be well off to tell AI to go fly a kite. AI has a lot in common with Ryanair; whenever either carrier calls Boeing or Airbus, seems like all they get is hold music!
 
phxa340
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:33 am

Quoting babybus (Reply 6):

Yes. JAL and ANA have both praised the 787s performance, in fact ANA did a top of order for it. Your Boeing bashing is getting tiring.
 
BMI727
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:36 am

Quoting babybus (Reply 6):
Time for Boeing to get their spin guys out

If the complaints came from a competent airline, you might have a point. But we all know that Air India is a government run basket case and an industry laughing stock that probably couldn't turn a profit if their fuel were free.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
In my useless opinion, Boeing would be well off to tell AI to go fly a kite.

If they were an actual private business they could. But unfortunately, Air India is very much under the thumb of the Indian government and so Boeing failing to listen to their complaints, no matter how frivolous, could jeopardize their ability to secure Indian defense contracts.
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BoeingVista
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:29 pm

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 5):
The A380

A) The A380 didn't really have them, it had a very smooth service entry.

B) The 787 has been in service, in theory, for more than a year so Boeing should be getting on top of reliability problems.

But it's much easier to try and throw shade on Airbus and Air India than admit that there may be problems with some Boeing 787's which have been repeatedly rebuilt through change incorporation.
BV
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:02 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 6):
Has any airline actually sung the praises of the 787?
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
ANA
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):
Yes. JAL and ANA have both praised the 787s performance, in fact ANA did a top of order for it. Your Boeing bashing is getting tiring.

Add UA, ET, and LA like theirs, too. LO is to begin operatioing the B-787 this month. So far, about 33 aircraft have been dlivered to about 8 airlines, including AI. Only AI has complained about operating the B-787.
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:41 pm

G'day

Quoting deaphen (Thread starter):
Sources said of the three Dreamliners received so far, one or the other aircraft is usually grounded at a time due to some snag. Such snags in new aircraft have puzzled the airline."

Every new aircraft entering service experiences some snags, else the airframers would not send out large support teams to each new customer airline to assist with entry into service. No difference whether A, B, C or E.

With the less than proactive approach of AI or the GOI - same thing - their arrogant attitude likely feeds down to the line personnel supposedly in charge of a smooth service entry. In the interest of their employer airline they should have been keen learning to kick the tires properly but I guess that is not how things work in India. Arrogant on top results in equal or even bigger arrogance and ignorance at the "servant" level.  

I guess someone from the B company has to get there to smooth the waves a bit, they have to to keep the defense side of the business going, but we will continue to hear about this saga for some time to come - while everybody else happily keeps flying the 787 around the world.  


Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
DrColenzo
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 1):
More grandstanding to draw attention from their own mismanagement, fraud, poor industrial relations and what should be a dead duck airline perhaps?

Yep.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 3):
At least AI is consistent in it's never ending whining about their aircraft. I'm surprised so little, that it is not measurable.

Yep.

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 4):
And they wonder why no one wants to do business with them..(e.g. no takers for their 77Ls)

Yep.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
ANA has, particularly regarding the efficiency of the aircraft being better than expected. I don't have a link, off the top of my head, but it's in the forum.

Yep.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):
Yes. JAL and ANA have both praised the 787s performance, in fact ANA did a top of order for it. Your Boeing bashing is getting tiring.

Yep.

Par for the course as far as Air India is concerned. Indeed, I very thinly recollect something similar with the 747-400 although you will have to find some information to back me up on that - I am sure I remember some Indian official ranting on at the time about the wonders of the Il-86/Il-96, but it is only a recollection from twenty years ago.

From my business and family dealings with India, I have witnessed some real finger pointing by government departments at outsiders who are to blame for their own problems - maybe there is something wrong with the Air India 787s, maybe this is real, but then stop whining and blaming everyone, get off your backsides and sort the problem out

Thank God normal Indian business people and indeed normal Indian people are not like this and are instead ernest and hardworking people.
 
brilondon
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 6):
All aircraft have settling in problems. Sometimes they fly for months with back-crew and specialist engineers.

Has any airline actually sung the praises of the 787?

Time for Boeing to get their spin guys out.

No one else seem to be having the problems that AI is having, there fore this would seem as a way for AI to try to get something for nothing. I have to laugh at all the problems AI is coming up with their aircraft. I believe the problems have to be systemic at AI and not really a problem with their aircraft. If AI is really having the amount of problems they say they are, then maybe they should have ordered the A350...oh wait that plane is not even built yet, and I am sure that AI would find fault it as well.
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flood
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 5):
Funny how no-one else seems to have these problems.....maybe the Japanese are too discrete?

ANA had their share of issues in the beginning. I kept tabs on their 787s for a few weeks back in March while they had 5 frames:
http://www.pdxlight.com/787/ANA787.htm

I'm not suggesting the reliability during that timeframe was good or bad for a new type. It merely shows that the lack of any publicized issues doesn't necessarily equate to trouble-free operations. It's also worth noting that an airline won't typically be spending millions on a media campaign to promote a new product - only to turn around to publicly criticize it. Enter Air India... they may be alone in that regard.

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 14):
With the less than proactive approach of AI or the GOI - same thing - their arrogant attitude likely feeds down to the line personnel supposedly in charge of a smooth service entry. In the interest of their employer airline they should have been keen learning to kick the tires properly but I guess that is not how things work in India. Arrogant on top results in equal or even bigger arrogance and ignorance at the "servant" level.

I think it's a little unfair to suggest such on the mx level when we're not privy to the issues they may be experiencing. Personally, I don't doubt they've been seeing some teething issues, but it seems AI management/govt are simply exploiting the issue once again and throwing another public tantrum. As the saying goes, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:36 pm

Please stop taking these kinds of comments at face value.

Deccan Chronicle's "top aviation sources" are rubbish, if their past claims are any indicator.

AI is dealing with normal teething issues, and AI has certainly requested assistance from Boeing to help overcome these issues, but "furious Civil Aviation Ministry" and "Boeing's top brass" are exaggerations to a ridiculous level.
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cmf
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting deaphen (Thread starter):
What next?

It is at times like this the other OEM is happy they didn't get the order  

Boeing will investigate the problems brought forward and deal with them. That's what next.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 18):
but it seems AI management/govt are simply exploiting the issue once again and throwing another public tantrum.

AI management does not throw public tantrums.

What you are referencing is our sensationalist press, which takes random comments, often out of context, and makes a massive story out of them.

A.net needs to learn to take our press less seriously.
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AA94
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 5):
Funny how no-one else seems to have these problems.....maybe the Japanese are too discrete?

NH did have some problems in the beginning (see below), but instead of whining and complaining, they just fixed the problems. I'm sure Boeing was notified and NH may have even asked for help, but they certainly didn't do this ridiculous grandstanding like AI does.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):
Yes. JAL and ANA have both praised the 787s performance, in fact ANA did a top of order for it. Your Boeing bashing is getting tiring.

  

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
Only AI has complained about operating the B-787.

At least in this fashion. They aren't the only airline to have minor problems with the 787, but they are the only ones publicly complaining about it.

Quoting flood (Reply 18):
ANA had their share of issues in the beginning. I kept tabs on their 787s for a few weeks back in March while they had 5 frames:

  

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 21):
A.net needs to learn to take our press less seriously.

Regardless of AI's original intent, they've created a reputation for shameless, public bashing of the products which they buy. The perception is that AI is again fishing for compensation for problems that are to be expected with a new aircraft.
If you can't take the heat, you best get out of the kitchen
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:27 pm

QR took delivery of their third 787-8 last week and AAB isn't chewing on glass about them, so that alone must be proof the 787 is perfect.     
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:31 pm

So how are UAL's 787s doing? I recall the first flight was delayed because the cockpit door didn't lock properly. How have they been performing since?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 23):
So how are UAL's 787s doing?

The news reports that I can find have been favorable. They and QR each received their 3rd airframe on the 20th.
 
TomFoolery
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 12):
A) The A380 didn't really have them, it had a very smooth service entry.

Uhhh what? A 380 was and is not immune to issues at EIS.
Alternate Brake System
Both T900 and GP7200 Engines have operational glitches (including in flight shut downs)
Microcracks in the wings.
System software issues (nuisance warnings)
Main Gear steering system.

As pointed out in the above threads, it is normal to identify issues at EIS for an airframe, engines, and systems as well (IFE to plumbing).

I did find the following quote in the article amusing:
"Sources said Air India had conveyed to Boeing that the image of the airline could take a severe beating if such snags kept occurring. "

The image has suffered at the hands of functioning aircraft as well...
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brilondon
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 25):
I did find the following quote in the article amusing:
"Sources said Air India had conveyed to Boeing that the image of the airline could take a severe beating if such snags kept occurring. "

The image has suffered at the hands of functioning aircraft as well...

I thought that I had misread that quote. The airline image is suffering not only due to functioning aircraft also the dysfunctional and often incompetent management as well.
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flood
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:06 pm

This article points to issues with the MEL:

[...] "the three Boeing 787 Dreamliners that the national carrier bought have been grounded at Delhi’s IndiraGandhi International Airport since Sunday evening [the article was posted Tuesday, 20th] owing to technical problems causing the beleaguered carrier further losses.

Top sources within the airline described the error as the Minimum Equipment List (MEL) not responding for operation clearance. Explaining the problem, a top Air India official on the condition of anonymity said, “For any aircraft to be cleared for operations, the MEL is required. The three aircraft were grounded as the MEL did not respond.”

The official added, however, that one of the aircraft was later cleared for operations on Monday afternoon but the others would remain grounded till they were able to ascertain the problem. “Till the time that we are able to establish the electronic driver error, the planes will be grounded and it may take some time to resolve the problem,” he added. Some sources told MiD DAY that a major engine-related issue with the aircraft could also be the reason behind the grounding."

http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/nov...grounds-Air-Indias-Dreamliners.htm
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:15 pm

ANA CEO and President Shinichiro Ito said “ANA is delighted with the performance of the 787′s in its fleet over the course of the last year. The 787 benefits from strong fuel efficiency with high dispatch reliability, and importantly, is well regarded by our passengers. As ANA works towards becoming Asia’s number one airline, we remain committed to the 787 to help support and drive our growth strategy”.

From:
http://airnation.net/2012/11/03/ana-celebrates-1-year-787/


Quite different than AI's response. ANA has had increasing dispatch reliability with only 96.3% in January of 2012 (google it, the links I found were competing blogs).

So there is a learning curve with the 787. But its a good plane once the airline gets through that curve.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 21):
NH did have some problems in the beginning (see below), but instead of whining and complaining, they just fixed the problems. I'm sure Boeing was notified and NH may have even asked for help, but they certainly didn't do this ridiculous grandstanding like AI does.

ANA also did numbers. e.g., the low January numbers. Not a complaint, just 'here is what we are achieving, now help us broadcast better numbers.' ANA did. Now Boeing will have broadcast how to achieve excellent reliability and so the question is, what is AI having issues with?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
QR took delivery of their third 787-8 last week and AAB isn't chewing on glass about them, so that alone must be proof the 787 is perfect.

That alone says a bit for AAB will complain if there is half a reason to complain. Yet AI is the noise maker.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 3):
At least AI is consistent in it's never ending whining about their aircraft. I'm surprised so little, that it is not measurable.

   The tradesman who always blames his tools. There is a reason its become 'the airline that shall not be named.'

The 787 isn't perfect, but AI 'cries wolf' too often. But I have one consolidation; as AI continues to sabotage its own growth (since it is a branch of the GoI, I include the GoI's miss-steps in this), its market share will wane and eventually it just won't matter what they say. AI should have grown by leaps and bounds the last decade. Instead, they are #3 in their home market. When will they fix the hubbing and truly take on the mid-east airlines. For with India's HUGE O&D traffic, there should be no competition.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
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par13del
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 27):
Top sources within the airline described the error as the Minimum Equipment List (MEL) not responding for operation clearance.

So we take it that the MEL is strictly computer based and Windows 8 came up with the BSD rather than the MEL, perhaps Boeing should move from Microsoft to Apple OS?
Just kidding  

With 3 frames down due to technical issue it is only fair for AI to demand additional compensation from Boeing for the continued delays to their operations.
Boeing should fly these a/c back to the USA where the technical expertise exist to fix them properly, give AI some funds for the 3 months it will take to thrash the problems out, the peace and quiet that Boeing will receive for the next 3 months should be worth some weight in gold.
Again just kidding, however, the constant grand standing does get tiresome, since these a/c are a black hole for AI why don't they simple stop throwing good money after bad, get rid of the a/c and get somethign else, A330's, A350, whatever, but ya gotta move on sometime right?
 
et767fan
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:27 pm

Ethiopian (ET) seems to like their 787s. They ordered three more this month.
caution: wake turbulance!
 
swallow
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 27):
Top sources within the airline described the error as the Minimum Equipment List (MEL) not responding for operation clearance. Explaining the problem, a top Air India official on the condition of anonymity said, “For any aircraft to be cleared for operations, the MEL is required. The three aircraft were grounded as the MEL did not respond.”

Dosen't Boeing have field service engineers embedded with AI to provide entry-into-service support? Or would AI be expected to resolve bugs like a MEL going AWOL?

From the linked article in reply 27,

Rohit Nandan, CMD Air India, said he would comment on the issue after talking to the engineering department. He, however, maintained that an engineering problem in any new machine was not unusual and they were coping well.

This guy knows what he is doing. No need to throw toys. Calm heads prevail.

[Edited 2012-11-24 09:05:56]

[Edited 2012-11-24 09:21:37]
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kanban
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:06 pm

There are probably at least 6 to 10 field service people from Boeing on site, and daily explicit communications to Boeing Customer Support (or what ever ambiguous name they've attached to the unit to obscure it's function).

Did they every identify why the cargo door fittings exploded? One bad thing about the 787 is is doesn't show ramp rash like aluminum.

Has anyone verified that the appropriate animal sacrifices were carried out? Maybe this is all just ignored deities.   
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:07 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
ANA CEO and President Shinichiro Ito said “ANA is delighted with the performance of the 787′s in its fleet over the course of the last year. The 787 benefits from strong fuel efficiency with high dispatch reliability, and importantly, is well regarded by our passengers. As ANA works towards becoming Asia’s number one airline, we remain committed to the 787 to help support and drive our growth strategy”.

Would the NH CEO say anything different? When has the head of a Japanese company ever said anything negative about anything? They probably were delighted with the Koito seats too 
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
Would the NH CEO say anything different?

In the end, if they weren't satisfied, they wouldn't have ordered any more - and they did.  
 
mham001
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):
A.net needs to learn to take our press less seriously.

Including its bloggers.

Quoting et767fan (Reply 30):
Ethiopian (ET) seems to like their 787s. They ordered three more this month.

And yet we were told last month by an Indian blogger that Ethiopian was also struggling with systemic failures.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 25):
I did find the following quote in the article amusing:
"Sources said Air India had conveyed to Boeing that the image of the airline could take a severe beating if such snags kept occurring. "

   AI is doing a little better post the pilot strike, but there will be another issue that inhibits meeting on time performance that is somehow never AI's fault. When it is never someone's fault, eventually you realize they are covering up.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 34):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
Would the NH CEO say anything different?

In the end, if they weren't satisfied, they wouldn't have ordered any more - and they did.

Japanese CEOs won't say anything positive if there is an issue. Only if the issues are resolved to their satisfaction do they say good things. As Stitch noted, they ordered more. That proves a bit.

Once the diagnostic software gets 'worked out' the 787 will be a very easy to maintain bird. But it will take a team used to the software which just takes time.

AI is well known for blaming everyone but themselves for their issues. As already noted, they and AAB make too much noise to be taken seriously. If ANA, JAL, or LAN were making noise, I'd listen and listen closely. AI or QR?    Some airlines have too much drama to be taken seriously.

Lightsaber
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Gr8Circle
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 15):
I am sure I remember some Indian official ranting on at the time about the wonders of the Il-86/Il-96, but it is only a recollection from twenty years ago.
Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 15):
I have witnessed some real finger pointing by government departments at outsiders who are to blame for their own problems

As usual, any AI topic brings out all the AI bashers on this forum (who seem to be growing in numbers day by day)....but you take the cake my friend.....why would any Indian official recite the " wonders of the Il-86/Il-96" when not a single airline in India has ever used any Russian planes at all....? You really need to back up your claims with some solid articles before you go on an AI/India rant of your own, just because it's become a trend these days on a.net........
 
Oshkosh1
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:04 pm

As with ANY industry...there will ALWAYS be "snags" when a completely new product is introduced and they are operated in real world conditions/tempo/non-OEM maintenance personnel etc...

To expect otherwise shows only ignorance of anticipated early hour gremlins.
C-150/2, 172, 177, 182, 209, Beech King Air, Convair 580, Twin Otter, RJ, CRJ, ERJ B717,27,37,47,57,67,77. DC8,9,10. MD8
 
DLT123
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:19 pm

Let us not forget that the ANA Seattle to Tokyo launch flight had a full 24 hour delay. And that was in Boeing'S backyard.

http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler....ht-seattle-to-tokyo-narita-review/
 
fshplns
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):
AI management does not throw public tantrums.

What you are referencing is our sensationalist press, which takes random comments, often out of context, and makes a massive story out of them.

The sensationalist press, are they related in anyway to that infamous paper in England, or the trash tabloids here in the states?
 
PHX787
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:53 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 3):
At least AI is consistent in it's never ending whining about their aircraft.

I'll make the popcorn and grab the brews.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
ANA CEO and President Shinichiro Ito said “ANA is delighted with the performance of the 787′s in its fleet over the course of the last year. The 787 benefits from strong fuel efficiency with high dispatch reliability, and importantly, is well regarded by our passengers. As ANA works towards becoming Asia’s number one airline, we remain committed to the 787 to help support and drive our growth strategy”.

Ito-shachô should have a sitdown with the aviation ministry of India to see why they're having so many complaints.

Quoting DLT123 (Reply 39):
Let us not forget that the ANA Seattle to Tokyo launch flight had a full 24 hour delay. And that was in Boeing'S backyard.

That could happen with any aircraft, mind you. All bad luck, but then again, NH loves their 787 to death.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting fshplns (Reply 40):
The sensationalist press, are they related in anyway to that infamous paper in England, or the trash tabloids here in the states?

Having lived in the US for many years, I can tell you that even the trashiest tabloids in the US have more integrity than many "mainstream" English-language news outlets in India.

For real news, you need to tune into the local-language media.

Quoting flood (Reply 27):
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/nov...s.htm

This is the only quote from that article which is relevant:

Quote:
When MiD DAY contacted Rohit Nandan, CMD Air India, said he would comment on the issue after talking to the engineering department. He, however, maintained that an engineering problem in any new machine was not unusual and they were coping well.

But of course, that AI is facing normal teething problems which will resolve themselves soon enough is not going to sell papers.
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BlueShamu330s
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 35):

I was told during the Kingfisher debacle by an Indian friend flying for them:

"In India, politicians are simply corrupt, news reporters are people who wish they had the lifestyle of politicians and bloggers are people who simply wish they were news reporters." 
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 5):
Funny how no-one else seems to have these problems.....maybe the Japanese are too discrete?

There was a thread 2 weeks ago re a JAL 787 that was delayed about 24 hours at BOS due to an inoperative PA system.
2 JAL 787s At Boston Now (by chrisnh Nov 12 2012 in Civil Aviation)

And ANA's inaugural flight from SEA was delayed 24 hours due to a mechanical problem.
http://www.komonews.com/news/boeing/...Seattle-Tokyo-route-172149751.html

ANA also had a 787 flight from FRA cancelled last January due to some technical problem.
ANA B-787 Stuck In Frankfurt AOG (by luxair_ca Jan 26 2012 in Civil Aviation)
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:06 pm

I think AI is going to argue with Boeing officials for a lower price on these aircraft. After all, isn't arguing a large part of doing business in India? Sometimes I think it's their national pastime.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
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flylku
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):
Yes. JAL and ANA have both praised the 787s performance, in fact ANA did a top of order for it. Your Boeing bashing is getting tiring.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
Add UA, ET, and LA like theirs, too. LO is to begin operatioing the B-787 this month. So far, about 33 aircraft have been dlivered to about 8 airlines, including AI. Only AI has complained about operating the B-787.

Indeed. I help customers with a highly technical product. There are always problems for which the product itself is to blame but more often than not it is the organization itself that is responsible for poor performance.. I frequently use peer pressure to motivate them. "Why is it that these guys over here are having great success with the same product and you struggle?" It is a real motivator. You benchmark X versus Y and Y rolls up their sleeves and says "If they can, we can too, only better!"
...are we there yet?
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:46 pm

So aside from AI grandstanding, do we have an specifics about what problems they've encountered? I would assume they know Boeing's phone number to call with TECH issues. I'd assume that Boeing has technical staff available at most times to consult.

For now, this sounds like the same tired song from the same tired airline. Boeing will be "nice" and work with them simply because of the size of the Indian market though many of us would prefer Boeing told them to stuff it.
 
FLALEFTY
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:53 pm

Air India ordered these 27 787s when economic times were much better and they were poised for what was expected to be unprecedented international growth. Thanks to being a launch customer and for compensation received from Boeing received due to the extensive delivery delays, the net unit cost of AI's 787s is just barely over $100M per plane, or slightly above the retail price of a 739ER.

But as we all are aware, AI, like most other international airlines, has struggled due to the global economic recession. Due to these circumstances, AI has been suffering from "buyer's remorse". But due to pressuring Boeing for delay compensation, rather than order modifications & cancellations, they are still on the hook for a large fleet of 787s that they don't really need. So this has led them to use negative publicity over the early-service teething problems to force Boeing into more compensation.

So what do I think AI wants? Well, there is that mini-fleet of 777LRs that did not work out for them. I bet if Boeing took them back at book value as compensation, the whining about the 787s would cease. Then Boeing could put them back on the 777 line to be converted to 777Fs, where there is a market demand.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 48):
Then Boeing could put them back on the 777 line to be converted to 777Fs, where there is a market demand.

That conversion would cost a mint. Boeing would be better off just shifting them for a song to another 787 customer as compensation.


As noted by a number of Indian members, the real "outrage" isn't coming from Air India, but "unnamed Aviation Ministry officials". So we really shouldn't be raking Air India management over the coals on this on, but greedy GoI officials looking for still more money to line their pockets.

[Edited 2012-11-24 14:02:24]