QANTAS747-438
Topic Author
Posts: 1660
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 7:01 am

Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:32 am

Though Southwest has added the 737-800 to its fleet, is there any need for a -900ER (not standard -900) whether to supplement flights or for added destinations? Also, what are the operational cost comparisons of a -900ER to a -700 or -800?
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:54 am

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Thread starter):
Though Southwest has added the 737-800 to its fleet, is there any need for a -900ER (not standard -900) whether to supplement flights or for added destinations? Also, what are the operational cost comparisons of a -900ER to a -700 or -800?

In a high density config that WN would operate the type in, I don't see the point.
What gets measured gets done.
 
AA737-823
Posts: 4906
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:14 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 1):
In a high density config that WN would operate the type in, I don't see the point.

215 seats instead of 189 in the -800.

I, personally, don't think so. But that's based on WN's system working for so long with two sizes: -200/-500 size, and -300/-700 size.
But now, if they're making the -800 work, then I don't see why they couldn't make a -900 work.
EXCEPT, perhaps, because their model never really seems to involve high load factors.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Thread starter):
is there any need for a -900ER (not standard -900)

The base -900 is no longer on offer; production standard is -9ER.
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3671
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:14 am

I think it's a matter of time before we see 9ER-sized 737s in Southwests fleet. But probably they let pass the current 900ER and get 9MAX-es eventually.
They seem to like their 800s and don't want to get any more 700s/7MAX-es so another expansion of aircraft size is logical when we are a few years of steady market growth further.
In Southwests typical seating pitch the 900ER/9MAX can seat 200, in which case only 4 F/A's are needed so crews can be easily interchanged between 8s and 9s.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 6692
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:27 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
In Southwests typical seating pitch the 900ER/9MAX can seat 200,

Whic is often overlooked, WN base seat pitch is usually greater than 30", those who have never travelled on WN hear the comments about cattle call and may assume it also mean as many as possibel crammed into the a/c.

As other posters mentioned, WN original model is based on frequency not high load factors on each flight, in some areas that is changing, whether it is an indication that WN is now going to the same model as all other legacy carriers is yet to be seen. Additionally, they have been reducing the transcons in favour of shorter flights as they were not as profitable, the ER model looses efficiency when operated on short stage lengths, so the trade off with increased capacity will be much closer and require a more "discriminating" route selection process.
In my mind the jury is still out on the 800 purchase for slot restricted airports, everyone is sure of La Guardia, I do not compare that airport in the make up of WN routes to an airport like LHR, but as usual, time will tell.
 
lhcvg
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 2:53 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:09 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):

Agreed. I would imagine there are a number of routes where a 9MAX would make sense. Like you said, at this point a 900ER is probably moot, but a 9MAX definitely.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4114
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:17 pm

The 800 has been getting extremely good reviews so far and are beating expectations. I really won't be shocked if we see the next size up added to the fleet at some point. It may all come down to the amount of int'l growth the airline does.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 4921
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:48 pm

One problem with WN ordering the -900ER would be that it would require a fifth FA. Adding a fourth FA was quite an issue for WN prior to ordering the -800, and I am not sure that WN would want to go through the trouble of adding a fifth.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
lhcvg
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 2:53 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
One problem with WN ordering the -900ER would be that it would require a fifth FA. Adding a fourth FA was quite an issue for WN prior to ordering the -800, and I am not sure that WN would want to go through the trouble of adding a fifth.

Not necessarily - as mentioned above, I think a major factor would be putting right at 200 seats to use the same 4 FA's as an 800. Now, that may not provide enough additional capacity and revenue to justify the purchase, but if it could work, I think they'd have to stick with a 200 cap because that 5th FA would just not be worth it for 20ish extra seats. To me at least, the whole idea is pegged to whether you can get 9MAX's for a relatively small premium over an 8, and could crew them the same as an 8.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 2141
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:08 pm

Let's face it! Southwest WILL be getting the -900 or the -9 not because they want to, but because they Have to!
When you fly only 1 type of airplane and you grow and Grow like WN has? Sooner or later they'll reach critical mass where the ONLY was is to go all out. They could have already supported a 767-200 some years ago, Everybody knows that already. So it's either 1000 737-700/800 series or go bigger with the -900/-9's Anything else?? is just Excuses!!
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:23 pm

Southwest Airlines has a lower load factor than many other US airlines. They average around 80% whereas other airlines that operate a hub and spoke network tend to average a bit higher.

Southwest goes after O/D. There are some connections, but Southwest really focuses on O/D routes and the fare structure and hubs do not lead to competitive connections at the rate that other airlines have. Because of the O/D nonstop route dependency in their network, smaller airplanes work better. Southwest also has high frequency on key routes. The 737-800 offers an increase in capacity and for now I think that is good enough.

The 737-900ER is great for airlines that have high capacity routes and have a hub and spoke network. There are some routes during peak times that could easily fill a 737-900ER, but I'm not sure overall that the they could keep a 900ER full all day long and across their network.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
barney captain
Posts: 1422
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 9):
They could have already supported a 767-200 some years ago, Everybody knows that already.

We could have? Based on what? Everybody?

I personally don't see any point in a 900ER, the MAX9 maybe - but not the ER. There was a reason some 800's got deferred (and likely converted) in to the MAX delivery time frame, greater efficiency and capability. The same holds true for the 900ER.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
SXDFC
Posts: 1665
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 11):
I personally don't see any point in a 900ER

I agree, and I've said this in another similar post, and will say it again. WN has to work out its own issues first ( with the 800, FL merger, unions,etc ) before they could even think about adding a longer 737. Hopefully the issues will all be fixed in time for the 737MAX arrival in 2017.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
jporterfi
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:25 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:54 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 9):
They could have already supported a 767-200 some years ago

On which routes? And how is mentioning a 762 relevant when they have stated time and time again that they want to stick with one aircraft type (737)? I suspect that many WN experts would disagree with you on your assertion. As others have said, WN is about frequency, and short-haul over long-haul. The MAX9 could possibly work for them, but I agree that they should sort out other issues first.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4114
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:50 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 11):
I personally don't see any point in a 900ER, the MAX9 maybe - but not the ER. There was a reason some 800's got deferred (and likely converted) in to the MAX delivery time frame, greater efficiency and capability. The same holds true for the 900ER.

The only play I can really see the -9MAX would be Central and South America. Maybe Alaska and Hawaii. Longer routes that will be somewhat limited on frequency but still have higher capacity demands.
 
lhcvg
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 2:53 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 14):
The only play I can really see the -9MAX would be Central and South America. Maybe Alaska and Hawaii. Longer routes that will be somewhat limited on frequency but still have higher capacity demands.

I was wondering if they might need them for transcons too - how many x daily can you run BWI-LAX, BWI-MDW, etc. without just turning them into another ORD-LGA?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23209
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:59 pm

Boeing's all-Economy OEM configuration for the 737-800 is 175 seats at 32-inch pitch, which is equal to Southwest's configuration.

Boeing's all-Economy OEM configuration for the 737-900ER is 204 at 30" pitch or 215 at 28" pitch, so with a 32" pitch Southwest could fit less than or equal to 200 seats and only need four cabin crew.
 
airliner371
Posts: 2074
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:53 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:04 am

I think we will see it happen in the next few years, most likely the MAX, not the ER.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
Boeing's all-Economy OEM configuration for the 737-900ER is 204 at 30" pitch or 215 at 28" pitch, so with a 32" pitch Southwest could fit less than or equal to 200 seats and only need four cabin crew.

Perfect for Southwest!
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:04 am

My original thought was that the poster was asking about range potential (he mentioned specifically going for the ER vs the reg 900 although im aware that only the ER is offered today) in which case any additional range will be eaten up in an all Y config. My point was that their 800s can do whatever the 900 can potentially do but of course less people.

Now, if we are just talking about larger a/c...idk. Look at how long it took them to order the 800.
What gets measured gets done.
 
DariusBieber
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:12 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:53 am

I could honestly see SW ordering smaller jets than larger ones..
Darius Bieber
 
User avatar
ODwyerPW
Posts: 971
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:30 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:26 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
One problem with WN ordering the -900ER would be that it would require a fifth FA. Adding a fourth FA was quite an issue for WN prior to ordering the -800, and I am not sure that WN would want to go through the trouble of adding a fifth.

You spec it at 199... no 5th flight attendant.

I am surprised that the 7Max wasn't lenghtened a bit to provide a true 149pax plane in Southwest Config (Pitch). Again, maximizing pax count without adding flight attendants. Not just a plane for southwest, but for other carriers.

Sorry Stitch... missed that you said the same thing about 9max and 199.

[Edited 2012-11-27 22:27:48]
learning never stops.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 2141
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:22 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 10):

You mean to tell us that WN Can't support flying a -900 sized airplane?? Really?? There are NO trunk routes that make the -900 viable?? I'm not going to say you're wrong because I don't know but I find that HARD to Believe..
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3952
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:51 am

Now that Southwest has broken the 'single type' taboo, (not counting classics), I think getting yet another type is more likely than less.
What the...?
 
wwtraveler99
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:34 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):

Huh? WN still only operates one aircraft type...the 737. Now they do have 4 different models of that type but its still just one type.

I have heard that the -800 is NOT performing as expected. I also do expect at some point WN will order the -900er. Now I dont know if that means the MAX or not, but I do see the -900er at some point.


WW
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3952
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Reply 23):
Huh? WN still only operates one aircraft type...the 737.

Ok....model. Sheesh.
What the...?
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Now that Southwest has broken the 'single type' taboo, (not counting classics), I think getting yet another type is more likely than less.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
Ok....model. Sheesh.

You would be wrong in that sense too. Let's say you were talking about "classics" vs "NGs"; well, they've had the 73-700 for quite a while. Alongside the 500s and 300s. None the less, WN is still a single type carrier. If you're talking about model, that bird flew a long time ago.
What gets measured gets done.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4114
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Reply 23):
I have heard that the -800 is NOT performing as expected.

This is true. It is performing better than expected from everything I've heard.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 25):
You would be wrong in that sense too. Let's say you were talking about "classics" vs "NGs"; well, they've had the 73-700 for quite a while. Alongside the 500s and 300s. None the less, WN is still a single type carrier. If you're talking about model, that bird flew a long time ago.

This.
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 25):

You would be wrong in that sense too. Let's say you were talking about "classics" vs "NGs"; well, they've had the 73-700 for quite a while. Alongside the 500s and 300s. None the less, WN is still a single type carrier. If you're talking about model, that bird flew a long time ago.

To be more specific, that was about three decades ago when they introduced the larger 737-300 alongside their fleet of 737-200s. (We'll ignore the couple of brief stints of flying 727s.)
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word, and doesn't even make sense.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
 
737tanker
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Could Southwest Use A -900ER?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
Ok....model. Sheesh.

WN has had 4 models of the 737 before when they operated the 737-200, 737-300, 737-500, and 737-700.