User avatar
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:31 pm

EK hoping for triple decker aircraft ...

Adel Al Redha, executive vice president of engineering and operations at Emirates, said the airline wants to be able to fit at least another 283 passengers on board each plane.

"I think the size we would look at right now is the treble aircraft configuration that goes from 500 to 800 passengers."

However, he said it would likely take at least another decade for a triple-decker style plane to be developed.


Read more: http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/i...frfq80-1226525073875#ixzz2DSs2tBVH


How close would a possible 380 900 or 1000 version come to this ( I am guessing EK wan't 3 class configuration, since one can already put 800 in a 380 with an all economy class configuration today ) ?
 
RL757PVD
Posts: 2539
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:35 pm

If they want to pay to upgrade the airports to accomodate such an aircraft then fine. My guess is by the time such an aircraft would exist that we would also have aircraft capable of making the DXB connection unnecessary.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
leftyboarder
Posts: 744
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:38 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:26 pm

Another decade? Nah! Give it until Christmas for Santa to drop it down the chimney.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23214
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:45 pm

I've seen dual-deck BWB concepts that seat around 1000 in three classes so I expect that is the future when it comes to UHCAs (Ultra High Capacity Airplanes).
 
ASA
Posts: 1006
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:12 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:59 am

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 2):
Another decade? Nah! Give it until Christmas for Santa to drop it down the chimney.

        

I don't think it needs a long wait at all - EK can just convert the cargo holds into windowless passenger cabins ... or rather sleeping cabins, like the crew rest areas ... and VOILA!!! charge them a premium for sleeper class  
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15326
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:05 am

Apparently someone got offended by my 380 comment , so let me say this: the market for very large aircraft is so limited now, how on earth would any manufacturer risk any money developing something larger?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):

Well Airbus have taken the risk and it hasn't paid off due to the 2 year EIS... & the cancellations...

I love the A380 & I hope it eventually pays off...

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
StickShaker
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:34 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:20 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
the market for very large aircraft is so limited now, how on earth would any manufacturer risk any money developing something larger?

Whatever EK wants, it will have to be a plausible derivative of the 380 - otherwise it just won't happen.



Regards,
StickShaker
 
astuteman
Posts: 6347
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:37 am

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
How close would a possible 380 900 or 1000 version come to this ( I am guessing EK wan't 3 class configuration, since one can already put 800 in a 380 with an all economy class configuration today ) ?

The supposed "double-stretch" 85m A380-1000 "S U-H" should fit about 670 seats in a configuration equivalent to their 517 seats on their A380-800's.
That's about the same as putting 390 in a 748i, or 300 in a 777-300ER

Putting 800 into such an A380-1000 would be the same as about 475 on a 748i or 375 on a 777-300ER

On the same basis as the 853 seat capacity for the A380-800, it would be certified for 1 080 seats   

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 7):
Whatever EK wants, it will have to be a plausible derivative of the 380 - otherwise it just won't happen.

Not in the next 20 years for certain.

I can't see a plane of that capacity being a "tube with wings" personally.

Rgds
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3954
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:13 am

I think this story has more to do with the fact that EK doesn't like to be out of the news for very long more than a serious request, or wish, for an aircraft type.

[Edited 2012-11-28 00:13:41]
What the...?
 
User avatar
autothrust
Posts: 1460
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:54 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:14 am

There are limits a passanger plane does have in size. Not only from the assembly or airport handling

The A380 size itself was a huge challange. (tranport of parts, assembly, separation issues, noise, pavement load,evacuation etc..)

They can forget it, unless they use a A380-900 in single class layout.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 3924
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:09 am

Quoting autothrust (Reply 10):

The A380 size itself was a huge challange. (tranport of parts, assembly, separation issues, noise, pavement load,evacuation etc..)

They can forget it, unless they use a A380-900 in single class layout.

Would certainly take quite a bit of modifications, but the idea of using part of the hold as an extra deck is not too far-fetched. At the end of the day Airbus did already do this with the A340-600, where the washing rooms were put into the hold area. Would certainly require extra doors, windows atc - and the downsite is a reduced (aka non-existent) cargo capacity.

For people-mover flights such as UAE to India this could, however, be a workable option in the medium term.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
brilondon
Posts: 3018
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:38 pm

Who would want to fly such a behemoth? The boarding process is bad enough now, imagine what adding another 200 people to that. Never going to happen. Which airline apart from EK, I guess would even want such a plane with the present aircraft being hard pressed to fill what they have on a regular basis.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 9944
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 11):
Would certainly take quite a bit of modifications, but the idea of using part of the hold as an extra deck is not too far-fetched.

Was it on the DC-8 that they had the underfloor smoking lounge ? It has been done before, Lufthansa has their toilets on the A340 under the main deck.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11866
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:10 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
However, he said it would likely take at least another decade for a triple-decker style plane to be developed.

Won't happen. As already noted, by the time the market is ready for such an airframe, it will be a BWB.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
how on earth would any manufacturer risk any money developing something larger?

Development work is going on with BWBs which have amazing economics for large passenger loads. Due to the longer chord of the wings, the BWBs will be the better configuration for over 600 unless it is the Udvar-Hazy A389 in the mid-term. Long term it will be the BWB.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 8):
The supposed "double-stretch" 85m A380-1000 "S U-H" should fit about 670 seats in a configuration equivalent to their 517 seats on their A380-800's.

   Which is why one won't see anything bigger. It is a question of when we have a longer A380 and what length. 80m to 87m is the potential range and I think Airbus will go big and follow Udvar Hazy's advice.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 8):
I can't see a plane of that capacity being a "tube with wings" personally.

Agreed. Not with the FAA informally telling airframers that certain exit concepts from BWBs will be approved (assuming the airframer is willing to do the evacuation test).


Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3797
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 13):
It has been done before, Lufthansa has their toilets on the A340 under the main deck.

Yes they do. And that works perfectly fine. Then again, a full triple deck A380 is not going to happen, but the A380-1000 as one time proposed by Steven Udvar-Hazy might see the light of day some day. Though first we will wait for the A380-900, which we could see entering service in 2020 or so.  .
 
YYZYYT
Posts: 906
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:41 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 13):
Was it on the DC-8 that they had the underfloor smoking lounge ? It has been done before, Lufthansa has their toilets on the A340 under the main deck.


L1011 - no pictures of the interior of the lounge, but some references to the lounge:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mick West



(note the door and stairs)


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Lee D Holden



There were also downstairs galleys.

[Edited 2012-11-28 07:03:04]
 
mrcazzy
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:44 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:00 pm

appart from the huge size and time it would take for this aircraft to be developed it would not be worth the time and money for whoever develops the aircraft, it would be such a large plane that there would not be nearly enough airlines who want such a big plane.
 
26point2
Posts: 816
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:03 pm

Here You go. PSA L1011 below deck lounge.

 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23214
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 11):
Would certainly take quite a bit of modifications, but the idea of using part of the hold as an extra deck is not too far-fetched.

McD did a study for an MD-11 with a "Panorama Deck" that would have had a passenger compartment in the forward hold. Their mock-up had First Class in this area.

McD Advertisement



http://www.socialwelfareagency.org/Public/Graphics/Aviation/MD-11_Panorama_Deck.jpg
Photoshop Mockup
 
YYZYYT
Posts: 906
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:41 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 18):
Here You go. PSA L1011 below deck lounge.

That's the shot I couldn't find - thanks!
 
dazbo5
Posts: 2717
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:05 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:07 pm

Thomas Cook (fomer My Travel / Airtours) A330-200's also have the toilets under the main deck;


Stairs from the passenger deck to the toilets.


Toilet deck!

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19832
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 11):
Would certainly take quite a bit of modifications, but the idea of using part of the hold as an extra deck is not too far-fetched.

Until you get to the bit where you have to cut extra holes in the fuselage for emergency egress. And the bit where you now have no cargo capacity.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 1):
If they want to pay to upgrade the airports to accomodate such an aircraft then fine. My guess is by the time such an aircraft would exist that we would also have aircraft capable of making the DXB connection unnecessary.

In an aviation market that is becoming increasingly hub-oriented (which, like it or not, is the current situation), there will never be a real need for ultra-long-haul longer than the longest routes are today.
It is much less economical to carry relatively few passengers with a whole lot of fuel used up to carry the extra weight of the extra fuel that keeps you running longer, than it is to carry many more passengers at once, between 2 hubs, in an aircraft that is not used at its full range capability.

Most people transiting at DXB are between 2 flights that could already be flown as one non-stop by 'regular' l-h a/c such as A330 or 777 (not talking 772LR), but are not because of lack of demand to warrant a flight, or at least lack of demand to justify a cheap flight.
And there are plenty of people who fly A-DXB-B when there have always been direct A-B flights anyway, because adding the flight change allows for cheaper fares.

People want to fly for cheap, this is all what matters. Yes, this includes business people as companies are not willing to throw too much money in plane tickets either.

So... triple deckers.. yes perhaps but not for at least 20-30 years or so when the A380 becomes used up to the bone and obsolete. I sort of anticipate a triple-aisle before a triple-decker, however...
When I doubt... go running!
 
Vimanav
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:33 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:32 pm

Given that current designs more have the payload and range capabilities to go nearly from anywhere to anywhere non-stop or with one stop, the new challenge and focus should be on speed. Considering that speed would come at a pretty high rate of fuel burn, an alternative cheaper fuel source will have to be developed. Once that is done, the premiums would be driven by aircraft that could do LON NYC in an hour or SIN LAX in two. So my personal expectation for future growth is in the realms of speed more than size.

brgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
N62NA
Posts: 4011
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 24):
my personal expectation for future growth is in the realms of speed more than size.

I think the only supersonic aircraft that we'll be seeing for civilian use in the remainder of this century will be biz-jets. 500 miles per hour is "fast enough" for the traveling public.
 
User avatar
flybynight
Posts: 1133
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:15 pm

Instead of bigger, I would prefer to see faster. If supersonic (and I am not taking about Seattle's former NBA team) can be made more effecient than the the Concorde it would sell well. I would prefer to spend less time in the air instead of hanging out with 1000 other passengers on some huge plane.
2 hrs LAX - JFK...Bring it!!  
Heia Norge!
 
flyingturtle
Posts: 4623
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 11):
Would certainly take quite a bit of modifications, but the idea of using part of the hold as an extra deck is not too far-fetched.

I found it strange that nobody mentioned the Stratocruiser...



David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
fanofjets
Posts: 1980
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 2:26 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:51 pm

The way I look at it, if J.K. Rowling and the cinema folks could come up with a triple-decker bus for the Harry Potter series, why not a triple-decker airplane. As with the bus, you could put all kinds of magical things inside that thing. Besides, such an aircraft would look very cool painted all purple!
The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
qf772
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:58 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 21):

Toilet deck!

Poop Deck
Eagles may soar but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4972
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:21 pm

I cannot see any rational airframe manufacturer putting up the kind of money required for a new VLA unless and until the market for them is much stronger than it is now. Until demand for the A380 picks up substantially I cannot even see Airbus doing more than incremental improvements to it. Let's face it, spending tens of billions of dollars to develop a plane that will sell a few hundred copies at most is about as risky a venture as I can imagine, especially when it will probably take at least ten years between launch and first delivery. During those ten years economic conditions can change drastically.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
musapapaya
Posts: 990
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:02 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:22 pm

What EK wants is a flying city, like a big cruise ship but in the air - I hope they know what they are talking about.....
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 3731
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 30):

Not to mention that any investment in such aircraft would only be covered by EK's potential need for it, as they seem to be the only takers out there.

They should consider themselves happy if they manage to convince Airbus to finally launch the A389...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 3647
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:24 pm

check out the A390 in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8ZrZ...er&playnext=1&list=RD04h6lGe5IlAds

later on in the same video is a multi deck 747
 
KC135Hydraulics
Posts: 440
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:05 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:51 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 13):
Was it on the DC-8 that they had the underfloor smoking lounge ? It has been done before, Lufthansa has their toilets on the A340 under the main deck.

There's another deck on an A340?! Pictures of this, please!
MSgt, USAF
KC-135R / C-17A Pneudraulic Systems Mechanic Supervisor
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23214
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 34):
There's another deck on an A340?!

It's the Aft Cargo Hold.



Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 34):
Pictures of this, please!

See Reply #21
 
User avatar
ODwyerPW
Posts: 974
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:30 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 9):
I think this story has more to do with the fact that EK doesn't like to be out of the news for very long more than a serious request, or wish, for an aircraft type.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner. I've been avoiding any stories featuring FR, AI or EK recently, for that reason.
learning never stops.
 
macsog6
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:25 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:31 am

Quoting flybynight (Reply 26):
Instead of bigger, I would prefer to see faster.

Over the years, speed was always the deciding factor, witness BA's call sign "Speedbird". As soon as someone figures out how to produce an engine that can go supersonic without sucking fuel, we will all be flocking to the faster planes. The present widebody, high capacity designs were an admission that the economic model of the industry was in jeopardy with just narrow body fleets.

LAX-SYD in three hours - I'd sure pay extra for that. Would I pay extra for the present times with another 300 friends along, I suspect not.

Speed is, and always will be, the deciding factor.
Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:39 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 9):
I think this story has more to do with the fact that EK doesn't like to be out of the news for very long more than a serious request, or wish, for an aircraft type.
Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 36):
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner. I've been avoiding any stories featuring FR, AI or EK recently, for that reason.

While there may be some desire for media attention behind this announcement, do not underestimate the saturation issues which EK is facing and which start threatening the viability of the model that has been the driving force behind its success. If EK wants to keep growing and absorbing some of the increasing demand that is available in the market then it will need to do so by deploying larger capacity aircraft as there is simply no room for more flights during certain times of the day at its DXB home base.

A look at the deployment of EK's current A388 capacity reveals a heavy focus of departing A388 traffic in the airline's early morning departure bank, mainly because the airline faces serious restrictions to add even more flights in that bank, so growth in that high demand time window will mainly have to come from the deployment of larger capacity. The airline has been trying to overcome this problem by establishing alternative traffic flow patterns at different times and in different departure and arrival banks, but the fact remains that certain schedules are more commercially desirable and face higher demand than others, a situation that many other airlines who have tried alternative schedules to overcome capacity or utilization issues have equally experienced.

In light of these increasingly pressing capacity constraints, the demand for even larger aircraft should not come as a surprise, for sure not since we are talking 2 decades ahead. It is way too easy to shrug this off as an EK quest for media attention, when an increasing number of airports (and with them their home base airlines) will be facing similar issues.

Even a superficial glance at Heathrow arrivals between 5 and 7 am reveals that the airport is coming up on the very limits of its operational capabilities: no arrival slots have been available for years at these times, and the arrival movements are virtually all executed by the operating airlines' largest equipment. Yet the demand for early morning overnight longhaul arrivals into Heathrow does not cease to grow. A possible solution to this issue is the deployment of even larger capacity aircraft, a transition which has been under way for years.

Dubai and Heathrow are just two of an increasing number of airports that will eventually have to rely on the deployment of larger aircraft, maybe even combined with restrictions on the operation of smaller frames, to deal with ever more acute capacity constraints. Morning arrivals at Frankfurt, evening departures at JFK and 10 am departures at Amsterdam face similar issues. Even such traditional safe havens are Singapore will encounter massive capacity issues in the next couple of years, some of which will have to be overcome by the deployment of larger aircraft.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3954
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:02 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 38):
While there may be some desire for media attention behind this announcement, do not underestimate the saturation issues which EK is facing and which start threatening the viability of the model that has been the driving force behind its success. If EK wants to keep growing and absorbing some of the increasing demand that is available in the market then it will need to do so by deploying larger capacity aircraft as there is simply no room for more flights during certain times of the day at its DXB home base.

All EK has to do to get themselves any kind of plane they want is to pay for it. If they want to pony up for a triple decker, then somebody will make it for them. The problem is, EK never knows exactly what it wants and is prone to changing its mind.

They also want the manufacturers to take all the risk, then suffer the wrath of EK should they have the temerity to not live up to the airline's ever changing paradigms.

Instead, EK goes public with a wishlist they know darned well nobody is remotely considering working on so they get to look like innovators without doing anything more than sending a memo to the PR flaks.

Don't get me wrong...EK has goes above and beyond to take advantage of free publicity and that's pretty smart. If they were serious about this concept, they would be talking with the manufacturers in private, sitting down with the tech folk to hammer out the details.

Instead, they float ideas they know will never see the light of day and moan when they can't get what they want.

Regardless, it costs them nothing and gets them some press.
What the...?
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11866
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:23 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 38):
but the fact remains that certain schedules are more commercially desirable and face higher demand than others, a situation that many other airlines who have tried alternative schedules to overcome capacity or utilization issues have equally experienced.

   Which is why for *some* large airlines, they will need VLAs. Most people want to maximize the value of their time (e.g., sleep on a flight), so certain times sell far better than others. e.g., anyone can look at HKG-LHR and see the flights are bunched at one time with a *tiny* number of alternate times. Curfews, as you alluded to, force a concentration of flights as some good alternate flight times are thus prohibited.

I see the economics of moving a large number of people at preferred times driving VLA development even more so than congestion. But congestion will 'boost' the market.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 38):
Dubai and Heathrow are just two of an increasing number of airports that will eventually have to rely on the deployment of larger aircraft

I wish I had kept the link, but I had read that 29 of Europe's airports will be in that situation by 2030.  
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 39):
The problem is, EK never knows exactly what it wants and is prone to changing its mind.

The problem is EK leases all their planes and has to work with the leasing companies for the best deal along with the airframers. Since EK is a large profitable airline whose order made the A388, I would say they know what they want. Mostly 777s.   Right now EK's priority is a new 777. But in 20 years, it will be a larger airframe. I just argue a BWB and not a triple decker.

Until Dubai can afford DWC, EK must upgauge. Even after DWC, certain times will be flown only with the largest aircraft due to demand. EK will be the customer for the next larger VLA. The issue with aircraft is no one airline buys enough to pay for the R&D. Would you want EK buying 250 of next larger VLA? That is the *minimum* number of projected airframe sales to launch a new type. So EK will work with airframers. As the largest customer of the 777 and A380, both Boeing and Airbus will listen. So will GE, RR, and Pratt.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3954
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 40):
The problem is EK leases all their planes and has to work with the leasing companies for the best deal along with the airframers. Since EK is a large profitable airline whose order made the A388, I would say they know what they want. Mostly 777s. Right now EK's priority is a new 777. But in 20 years, it will be a larger airframe. I just argue a BWB and not a triple decker.

Yes and no. Airbus went through a lot of trouble to make the -1000 bigger and more capable just for customers like EK, then EK goes and disses them in public. I fail to see how they can claim the -1000 will be too heavy when the -900 on which it is based has yet to even be assembled.

Boeing has managed to carve a lot of weight out of the 787 since the first batch was produced and there is no reason to believe Airbus won't be able to get rid of any excess weight in the -900 by the time the -1000 is ready to be built.
What the...?
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:00 pm

If Airbus would build such a plane i'd want it to be called the A3000EK (Emirates Edition) 
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 9):
I think this story has more to do with the fact that EK doesn't like to be out of the news for very long more than a serious request, or wish, for an aircraft type.

At least they are not being way over the top unlike what FR has done a few times. I mean yes no such type of a triple decker exists as of yet but who knows what the future holds. If EK are willing to pay loads of money for a design and aircraft im sure Airbus or Boeing will do something. Airbus has done well with the A380 with EK.
3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3954
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:39 pm

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 43):
At least they are not being way over the top unlike what FR has done a few times.

I'm not even criticising EK. They are promoting their airline at every turn in a crowded, cutthroat market. EK's actions have forced a lot of changes in the industry. Their aggression has forced everybody to step up their game.
What the...?
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:23 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 43):
I'm not even criticising EK.

Yeah I know, I wasn't even thinking of that don't worry.  
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 43):
They are promoting their airline at every turn in a crowded, cutthroat market. EK's actions have forced a lot of changes in the industry. Their aggression has forced everybody to step up their game.

Yes EK are one of the major players in the airline industry, they are certainly trying to become the biggest. I must admit with EK expanding so much it is a shame to see some of the smaller airlines go bust.
3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3954
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:38 am

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 44):
I must admit with EK expanding so much it is a shame to see some of the smaller airlines go bust.

True...it's a mixed blessing but generally, the airlines that fail were bound to anyway. If EK didn't get them, Ryanair would. The glamour is gone, I'm afraid. The big fish are eating the little fish. The only hope for the little fish is to get to be very good friends with some bigger fish.

It's the Walmart way of the world.

They would have to give up some independence, but it might keep them alive.
What the...?
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 45):
True...it's a mixed blessing but generally, the airlines that fail were bound to anyway. If EK didn't get them, Ryanair would.

Yes a shame it has come to this. Also now there does not seem to be many new airlines succeeding straight off the bat, as they have fierce competition straight away with the likes of FR, U2 and well most of the other rather big LCC's for that matter. Then if a new airline wants to do longhaul only you have to go up against EK and other major carriers like BA, LH, UA etc.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 45):
The only hope for the little fish is to get to be very good friends with some bigger fish.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 45):
They would have to give up some independence, but it might keep them alive.

Yes and that is only a small chance of happening if they are lucky, and again the newish airlines have not a chance.
3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11866
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: EK Hoping For Triple Decker Aircraft ...

Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 41):
Yes and no. Airbus went through a lot of trouble to make the -1000 bigger and more capable just for customers like EK, then EK goes and disses them in public. I fail to see how they can claim the -1000 will be too heavy when the -900 on which it is based has yet to even be assembled.

Airbus changed the A350-1000 to specifications other than what EK wanted. EK wanted the most economical Europe to DXB hauler and other -1000 buyers demanded more which changed commonality (engines) and weight. Diving into the details, EK is just trying to buy the aircraft they originally wanted to buy. Effectively, a next-gen 777-300 (non-ER).

For EK, they must not only negotiate with Airbus and Boeing, but with the leasing companies. Look at how they've floated their own companies in London to fund A388s. Even EK cannot just buy what they want. The financing market has changed everything.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain