LAXintl
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Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:45 am

US President signed into law on Tuesday the legislation that enables the US DOT to prohibit US airlines from participating in the EU ETS scheme.

The widely supported bill cleared Congress two weeks ago. ( US Congress Passes Anti EU ETS Legislation (by LAXintl Nov 14 2012 in Civil Aviation) )

Under the now enacted legislation, the US government would make the determination that participating in EU ETS would not be “in the public interest, as participation would produce negative impacts on US consumers, US carriers and US operators, along with impacts on the economic, energy and environmental security of the United States and its US foreign relations, including existing international commitments.”

Stories:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/p...bre8aq1ar-20121127,0,1400336.story
and
http://atwonline.com/international-a...ling-us-airlines-skirt-eu-ets-1127

=
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DLPMMM
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:21 am

At last we have some bi-partisanship in the USA. Thank you Europe!

Put a fork into the EU ETS...it is done
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:32 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 1):
Put a fork into the EU ETS...it is done

Or at the very least, compromise. The EU is completely convinced that it's legal and valid while many other countries think it's absolutely invalid and illegal. Instead of fighting using brute strength and possible causing economic collateral damage, how about they work out the extra-territoriality issue?

Ignoring the issue and trying to implement it 100% in tact hasn't gotten anyone to back down (and it's even suspended right now) and on the flip side, killing the entire thing is kinda silly since only part of the ETS is controversial.

I've said it for a while now... work for a compromise. Otherwise, at least one side will be totally unhappy, maybe even both
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LAXintl
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:29 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 1):
At last we have some bi-partisanship in the USA. Thank you Europe!

Ha ha. Yes funny how an aviation issue brought the bickering sides together.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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moo
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:39 pm

Now all the EU need to do is enact a bill blocking EU financial institution participation in FATCA and everything should get real interesting...

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
how about they work out the extra-territoriality issue

Because they don't need to.
 
cmf
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
Instead of fighting using brute strength and possible causing economic collateral damage, how about they work out the extra-territoriality issue?

Look at the stalling at the previous ICAO assemblies and what has come out of ICAO lately and it is clear that this is what was needed to end the head in the sand mentality. Hopefully there will be an agreement at the 38th assembly and all those suggesting EU is not following ICAO will not start claiming it is right to break ICAO rules...
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vfw614
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
how about they work out the extra-territoriality issue

The only extra-territoriality issue is the US congress legislating on something that happens on EU territory (in short: "if you land in the EU or cross its airspace, you have to pay XY EUR"). The US government (or myself for that matter) may not like the EU legislation, but certainly the US cannot enact a law that has any direct relevance in relation to this (well, of course they can, but it is completely irrelevant from a legal point of view).
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 6):

Actually, it was the EU trying to legislate a tax on the fuel efficiency of foreign airlines aircraft that never even enter the EU's airspace, as well as CO2 emissions on portions of flights that were not over EU airspace. This was all contrary to the Chicago Convention, and as such has been "suspended" by the EU due to objections raised by countries representing most of the world's population.
 
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moo
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 7):
it was the EU trying to legislate a tax on the fuel efficiency of foreign airlines aircraft that never even enter the EU's airspace

I'd like to see a link to something backing that up please.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 7):
as well as CO2 emissions on portions of flights that were not over EU airspace.

If the aircraft enters EU airspace, its fair game - if you do business on EU soil, you get to play by the same rules as everyone else. You can repeat the mantra's "exta-territorial" and "not over EU airspace" all you want, but the moment that aircraft touches EU jurisdiction, its covered under the same rules.

If the TSA can demand all my personal details and even block me from flying based on a flight from the UK to Canada that never touches US airspace, then this shouldn't have any issues at all.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 7):
This was all contrary to the Chicago Convention

Times change.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 7):
and as such has been "suspended" by the EU due to objections raised by countries representing most of the world's population.

Spin it that way all you want, but it was suspended because the ICAO want to do something globally based on the ETS...
 
bigjku
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 8):
If the aircraft enters EU airspace, its fair game - if you do business on EU soil, you get to play by the same rules as everyone else. You can repeat the mantra's "exta-territorial" and "not over EU airspace" all you want, but the moment that aircraft touches EU jurisdiction, its covered under the same rules.

If the TSA can demand all my personal details and even block me from flying based on a flight from the UK to Canada that never touches US airspace, then this shouldn't have any issues at all.

All this really is is negotiating leverage. People making a big deal out of it are being silly. That being said the US law is no less valid than the EU law. Everyone is just posturing at this point.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 6):
the US cannot enact a law that has any direct relevance in relation to this (well, of course they can, but it is completely irrelevant from a legal point of view).

This is a good point, and one I had not even considered. The new law is totally unenforceable. It's the equivalent of Congress passing a law that bans me from paying any parking fines I might accrue in Europe. If I tried to rely on that in France the Gendarme would laugh the entire way into court!

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 7):
Actually, it was the EU trying to legislate a tax on the fuel efficiency of foreign airlines aircraft that never even enter the EU's airspace

Actually, it is probably both.

Quoting moo (Reply 8):
If the aircraft enters EU airspace, its fair game - if you do business on EU soil, you get to play by the same rules as everyone else

Personally I agree, so long as it is fairly enforced on everybody then I don't see the problem from a purely economic standpoint. However, it seems to have ruffled some feathers over on this side of the pond (and elsewhere) from a vocal group of people who scream sovereignty.

I'll go get the popcorn  
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cmf
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 7):
Actually, it was the EU trying to legislate a tax on the fuel efficiency of foreign airlines aircraft that never even enter the EU's airspace

Please show us where they did this  
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tdscanuck
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
how about they work out the extra-territoriality issue

Because they don't need to.

So we're just pretending that the EU countries didn't sign the ICAO treaties that say they do have to?

Quoting moo (Reply 8):
If the aircraft enters EU airspace, its fair game - if you do business on EU soil, you get to play by the same rules as everyone else.

Those rules include existing treaties, which have not (yet) been negated.

Tom.
 
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moo
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 9):
That being said the US law is no less valid than the EU law.

Which laws are we talking about? The anti-ETS one or the TSA screening requirements I mentioned?

If its the anti-ETS one, the US law has no validity within the EU - the exemption is worthless because the airline will still end up owing the debt, US law cannot stop a foreign nation from operating its own rules within its own jurisdiction.

The only outcome of this law is for US airlines to stop flying to the EU - the nuclear option. But unless retaliatory laws are passed against EU airlines, all that will do is damage US airline TATL business because EU airlines will still fly  
 
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moo
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):
So we're just pretending that the EU countries didn't sign the ICAO treaties that say they do have to?
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Those rules include existing treaties, which have not (yet) been negated.

And yet significantly there hasn't been any legal action lodged about it... Funny that, eh? Almost as if it weren't as in violation as some think.
 
bigjku
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 13):
If its the anti-ETS one, the US law has no validity within the EU - the exemption is worthless because the airline will still end up owing the debt, US law cannot stop a foreign nation from operating its own rules within its own jurisdiction.

You can call it meaningless but it really isn't depending on what the penalties for complying are. The main purpose of this I believe is for negotiating leverage and it should be fairly effective in that regard. It signals that congress is probably willing to go down the path of enacting the necessary laws to retaliate against EU based airlines if necessary. That is really the whole purpose of this in my view.
 
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moo
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 15):
You can call it meaningless but it really isn't depending on what the penalties for complying are.

But as it stands, those penalties can only apply against US airlines - not sure how that's going to punish the EU  
Quoting BigJKU (Reply 15):
It signals that congress is probably willing to go down the path of enacting the necessary laws to retaliate against EU based airlines if necessary. That is really the whole purpose of this in my view.

Then that's what they need to do, but how are they going to achieve that without really breaching all those sacred treaties being brought up in these threads?
 
art
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:09 pm

Wouldn't it have been so much less aggravation if ETS had been set up covering emissions in EU airspace?
 
bigjku
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 16):
Then that's what they need to do, but how are they going to achieve that without really breaching all those sacred treaties being brought up in these threads?

Treaties are a waste of time in my view. They have no more force than nations want them to have at any point and certainly I was not bringing them up.

Quoting moo (Reply 16):
But as it stands, those penalties can only apply against US airlines - not sure how that's going to punish the EU

Yeah, but it basically makes things a game of chicken. If US airlines are told they can't pay what is the EU going to do? Impound aircraft? The EU won't cross that line. They don't want to start that kind of a battle right now. This will end up being settled and because I am betting that more nations will object to the EU plan than won't, particularly places in Asia.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 11):

The ETS is based on the fuel efficiency (CO2 emitted per RPK and RTK) of the foreign airline's aircraft fleet. That is how they measure the fuel efficiency of an airline and what their baseline credits are.

A vast majority of these flights for foreign airlines do not go near EU airspace.

I thought you understood how the EU ETS scheme worked for airlines
 
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moo
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 19):

That's a world of difference from "it was the EU trying to legislate a tax on the fuel efficiency of foreign airlines aircraft that never even enter the EU's airspace".

The ETS scheme uses standard values for all aircraft - spin it whatever way you like.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 20):

No, it uses the CO2 RPK history from the airlines....that is why the airlines have been having to report their RPK to the EU. They have also had to submit data on their fuel usage to back up their other data.

https://www.iata.org/whatwedo/environment/pages/emissions-europe.aspx
 
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moo
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 21):

Good, still don't see an issue with it - don't like it, don't do business in the EU.
 
cmf
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:02 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 13):
But unless retaliatory laws are passed against EU airlines
Quoting BigJKU (Reply 15):
congress is probably willing to go down the path of enacting the necessary laws to retaliate against EU based airlines if necessary

Which has the little problem of being without a doubt against treaties.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 19):
The ETS is based on the fuel efficiency (CO2 emitted per RPK and RTK) of the foreign airline's aircraft fleet. That is how they measure the fuel efficiency of an airline and what their baseline credits are.

No it isn't. It is based on emitted emissions on the flight to/from EU. They do not care one bit about how many passengers are onboard.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 19):
A vast majority of these flights for foreign airlines do not go near EU airspace.

They only count when they land/takeoff at an EU airport.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 19):
I thought you understood how the EU ETS scheme worked for airlines

Why I objected to your erroneous statement.
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BoxBoy
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:24 am

I, for one, wish that all airlines around the world would have to contribute to this tax so that they can finally fix the hole in the ozone layer. Just imagine how much better off our children, pets, and plants will be once it is plugged and we can start filling the atmosphere back up with oxygen.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):

If you bothered to read the link provided by me above from ICAO you would see that you are wrong. Otherwise there would be no point in all the data being demanded by the EU from the foreign airlines. And since the data includes aircraft that never enter the EU, it is even more so egregious.

You can object to anything you like, but you are still wrong.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
Quoting cmf (Reply 5):
Quoting vfw614 (Reply 6):

So the legal opinions of other countries don't matter? I know you three think the EU's court decision is correct and legal but obviously they aren't the only opinion and the EU's court is not anymore special that anyone else's.

I'm not even again ETS, I'm just saying that there are legitimate concerns and just trying to go ahead with ETS at the complete disapproval of many other countries probably isn't the best option. It's not like the ETS will completely fall apart if they change a part of it to make it more appealing to other countries. Had they done that in the first place, there wouldn't be a pissing match between various countries and the EU, and the ETS would probably still be in effect today.

This thread reminds me of the Israel-Palestine threads. Both sides think they're completely 100% right and aren't willing to negotiate. The US isn't calling to end the ETS, they are objecting to a, let's be honest, minor part of it.

Again, I recommend compromise
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cmf
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:36 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 25):
If you bothered to read the link provided by me above from ICAO you would see that you are wrong. Otherwise there would be no point in all the data being demanded by the EU from the foreign airlines. And since the data includes aircraft that never enter the EU, it is even more so egregious.

Lets look at the templates EU provide for reporting data, http://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/e.../monitoring/templates/index_en.htm
Open report_tkm_efta_en.xls and point three in the guidelines is:

"The EU ETS for aviation has been expanded to cover the three EEA EFTA States Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. This means that aircraft operators also need to monitor and report their emissions and tonne-kilometre data from domestic flights within the EEA EFTA States, flights between the EEA EFTA States and flights between EEA EFTA States and third countries.

Accordingly, all references to Member States in this template should be interpreted as including all 30 EEA States. The EEA comprises the 27 EU Member States, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway."

Very clear they are only requesting data to, from and inside the 30 states.

I have no idea where in the link you provided you think it states they require worldwide reporting but the data direct from EU is clear it is only the flights I mentioned above.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):
So the legal opinions of other countries don't matter? I know you three think the EU's court decision is correct and legal but obviously they aren't the only opinion and the EU's court is not anymore special that anyone else's.

Beg your pardon, where have I stated legal opinions of other nations do not matter? But I think you agree that a stated opinion and a court ruling carry very different degrees of substance. Nor should there be any doubt that a ruling by an EU court is legal.

Of course there is the possibility that other courts will see it differently and just as we have multiple levels of courts in most countries it may be that an overruling court, or ICAO procedure in this case, may see it differently.

But why aren't the nations claiming it is a violation of the Chicago conventions using the procedure agreed in it to solve this issue? We have seen some make the claim it is because EU isn't a signatory but as we saw with A4A it is an argument not holding water as you initiate it against the administrating nation.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):
Again, I recommend compromise

Isn't that what EU have clearly indicated they are willing to do? How can it be clearer than holding back after ICAO finally produced something to show they are going to address the task they stated they would do but ignored for a decade and half.
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vfw614
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:25 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):

So the legal opinions of other countries don't matter? I know you three think the EU's court decision is correct and legal but obviously they aren't the only opinion and the EU's court is not anymore special that anyone else's.


Legal opinion here in Europe is, for example, that the death penalty is unconstitutional and violates human rights. So let us assume the European Parliament passes a law that makes executions of EU citizens not only within the EU territory, but also in the rest of the world unlawful. By your logic, the US would have to stop executions of EU citizens immediately, right? Just as much as you expect that US airlines do not have to play by the rules set up by the EU for aircraft touching its soil or overflying its airspace.
 
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moo
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):
So the legal opinions of other countries don't matter?

Legal opinions of other countries don't matter in other jurisdictions unless that jurisdiction makes special difference to that opinion. How can it be any other way?
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:02 pm

I don't agree with your interpretation that the Article 84 proceedings are the most appropriate method from the foreign countries to fight the EST tax scheme, but that really doesn't matter.

No one needs to initiate legal proceedings under the Chicago Convention because the point is moot and the EU ETS tax scheme is dead WRT foreign airlines. You seem to be intent on beating this dead horse.

Why fight a legal case over something that you have already won?

And BTW, ICAO will continue to come to no agreement in the foreseeable future.
 
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moo
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:09 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 30):
And BTW, ICAO will continue to come to no agreement in the foreseeable future.

If it doesn't then I see the ETS being reinstated. Simple as that really.

There has been plenty of opportunity for international action on carbon emissions, and there has been an equal amount of squirming and excuses given from various quarters which has resulted in nothing being done with international jurisdiction - at least the EU are doing something, and at least they are forcing discussion on the matter.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 28):
Legal opinion here in Europe is, for example, that the death penalty is unconstitutional and violates human rights. So let us assume the European Parliament passes a law that makes executions of EU citizens not only within the EU territory, but also in the rest of the world unlawful. By your logic, the US would have to stop executions of EU citizens immediately, right? Just as much as you expect that US airlines do not have to play by the rules set up by the EU for aircraft touching its soil or overflying its airspace.

There has been a long established principle of international law that a vessel, be it an aircraft or a ship is a part of the country that it is registered in. This is the big difference. Now while that vessel is in the airspace, or waters of a foreign country it must abide by certain conditions enabling its visit. These can include things such as tariffs, safety standards, etc. And for these reasons a lot of these conditions where negotiated between countries as part of bilateral trade negotiations. In other words, diplomatic agreements. (that means both sides agreeing, something the EU didn't attempt to even try to do) But as soon as that vessel has left the visiting countries territory it has no further rights over it, and when in international waters/skies is basically 100% subject to the laws of its country of registration. Lots of examples, like for example, 'party ships' that would take swedish party goers on tax free drinking nights the moment they left swedish waters and could 'bypass' Sweden's sin on alcohol tax. Similar things were happening in asia were casino's were outlawed, and the moment they departed the home port and were in international waters the roulette tables opened for business. The problem with this ETS, is they're ignoring this issue of a vessels sovereignty. And that's why this is different to the example above.

And this is why foreign countries have a big problem. For Ideological reasons, that is, the EU wanted to see 'carbon trading' they pushed this. They wanted it to be treated the same as everything else inside the EU, but attempted to apply it to something outside the EU. If they passed a tax based on aircraft takeoff weight, for example, they would have got away with it. Or a departure tax based on distance flown. They haven't attempted to apply their law to property of another country outside their country. But by trading... they are applying it to something happening outside their territory. Thats the big issue. And if they want to do that they need to negotiate that with other countries. But if they set a precedent of being able to do that without negotiation, that opens the flood gates to all kinds of issues of property rights and sovereignty. It's basically violating other nations sovereignty. Some might point economic sanctions do that all the time. But they work like this: make a choice them or us. It does become a giant game of chicken. Now if the EU has every other big nation on earth saying "ummm...i don't think so that's our turf not yours" then they'd be very very stupid to push ahead. And the reality of that, has basically just confronted them.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 31):
If it doesn't then I see the ETS being reinstated. Simple as that really.

There is no chance that the EU will reinstate the ETS tax scheme since the airlines from the USA, India, Russia, China, and lots of other countries will simply refuse to participate and pay the EU. It would just accelerate the demise of the EU airlines. There is nothing that the EU could reasonably do to enforce the tax when the other countries refuse to let their airlines pay it.

It is simple as that really.
 
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moo
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:11 pm

Really? There's nothing they can do? Sieze aircraft as payments of debts?

There's plenty that can be done, which is why I see it being reinstated.
 
vfw614
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 32):
There has been a long established principle of international law that a vessel, be it an aircraft or a ship is a part of the country that it is registered in. This is the big difference.

We are talking about different things. The ETS may or may not be lawful. But the US Congress has no powers to legislate on the application of a law of a foreign sovereign. If someone does not like a law, he can take it for review to a court which has jurisdiction in the matter or retaliate by imposings tariffs or a similar law for his jurisdiction. But there is no way a parliament of state A can legislate on the applicability of a law of state B. Or overrule the decision of a foreign court. I would be very surprised if the US would find it acceptable if foreign nations overruled every decision of the US Supreme Court which they don't like by passing a law to that extent.

The international principle you are talking about, by the way, is not a universal principle, but limited to criminal offences (and some aspects of public law) - see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_principle. The ETS has nothing to do with. If it were different, the US Congress could just as well legislate that rules on slot allocation under EU law or the ban of certain aircraft are not applicable to US carriers.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 34):
Really? There's nothing they can do? Sieze aircraft as payments of debts?

There's plenty that can be done, which is why I see it being reinstated.

LOL,

So the EU is going to try to sieze the aircraft of every major foreign airline?

You really think they would?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 27):
Isn't that what EU have clearly indicated they are willing to do? How can it be clearer than holding back after ICAO finally produced something to show they are going to address the task they stated they would do but ignored for a decade and half.

Not following 100% but instead of talking to other countries and trying to resolve this, they're just trying to get it implemented through the ICAO. That doesn't seem like compromise to me. I mean it might work and all, but I still don't think that is considered compromise

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 28):
Legal opinion here in Europe is, for example, that the death penalty is unconstitutional and violates human rights. So let us assume the European Parliament passes a law that makes executions of EU citizens not only within the EU territory, but also in the rest of the world unlawful. By your logic, the US would have to stop executions of EU citizens immediately, right?

That is completely not what I'm saying. It's about jurisdiction, read my reply to the next quotation. I 100% support the EU's RIGHT to charge ETS within the EU's jurisdiction. Funny you should mention the death penalty (which I oppose) but the EU does not extradite anyone when they are going to face the death penalty in the other country

Quoting moo (Reply 29):
Legal opinions of other countries don't matter in other jurisdictions unless that jurisdiction makes special difference to that opinion. How can it be any other way?

Because jurisdiction is the crux of the issue. To my knowledge, no country objects to having their airlines pay ETS *in EU airspace.* They are objecting to being charged for the portion of the flight outside of the EU's jurisdiction and the actual country suing.

Now you are free to agree or disagree, but at least understand the argument. The big bad US isn't trying to prevent the EU from having ETS. The US' opinion is that it is the ETS that is extra-territorial.
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
vfw614
Posts: 3168
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:56 pm

Are we on common ground with this:

What is being taken into the calculation is the emission of the whole flight that departs or arrives in the EU, which means that also the emissions count that are emitted into international airspace which is not over EU territory.

So in a way like you are having to pay a national tax / levy for a non-domestic flight although some / the bigger part of the flight is outside the territory of the state that levies the tax. So the argument consequently is that the US Congress could also enact a law binding the UK that says that a charge under UK law for a longhaul flight from the UK to the US is lawful only as long as it covers only the portion of the flight that is over UK airspace? Because everything else is extra-territorial?
 
cmf
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:28 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 30):
I don't agree with your interpretation that the Article 84 proceedings are the most appropriate method from the foreign countries to fight the EST tax scheme, but that really doesn't matter.

No one needs to initiate legal proceedings under the Chicago Convention because the point is moot and the EU ETS tax scheme is dead WRT foreign airlines.

If the claim is that it is illegal because of the Chicago agreement then how can it not be the appropriate place to test it?

You call it dead but it is far from. Hopefully ICAO will come to an acceptable agreement but if it doesn't the EU ETS is back on. If you're so convinced it is against the agreement then initiate proceedings to make sure it doesn't come back.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 30):
Why fight a legal case over something that you have already won?

As stated above, your conclusion is wrong

Quoting moo (Reply 29):
And BTW, ICAO will continue to come to no agreement in the foreseeable future.

Maybe, maybe not. It is clear this will be a big issue at the next assembly.

As to the issue you brought up before and is now completely missing; Do you now accept that EU are not asking for data only for flights to/from or inside the ETS area?

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 33):
It would just accelerate the demise of the EU airlines. There is nothing that the EU could reasonably do to enforce the tax when the other countries refuse to let their airlines pay it.

I hope we will never find out, but I expect you're wrong about what would happen. They would clearly not allow those airlines to land. Counties preventing EU airlines to land as retaliation will be clearly in breach of treaties and EU would bring it up there.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 36):
So the EU is going to try to sieze the aircraft of every major foreign airline?

You really think they would?

Outstanding fees, absolutely.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):
Not following 100% but instead of talking to other countries and trying to resolve this, they're just trying to get it implemented through the ICAO. That doesn't seem like compromise to me. I mean it might work and all, but I still don't think that is considered compromise

Even the objecting countries state it is an ICAO issue so why not?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):
Now you are free to agree or disagree, but at least understand the argument. The big bad US isn't trying to prevent the EU from having ETS. The US' opinion is that it is the ETS that is extra-territorial.

The argument is clear. The question is why US isn't using the dispute resolutions of the agreements they lean on to state it is a breach.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2637
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting BoxBoy (Reply 24):

I, for one, wish that all airlines around the world would have to contribute to this tax so that they can finally fix the hole in the ozone layer. Just imagine how much better off our children, pets, and plants will be once it is plugged and we can start filling the atmosphere back up with oxygen.

I....
wow.....

really?

The hole in the ozone layer has nothing to do with CO2, and in fact has allways been there thanks to the mechanics of how Ozone is formed in the upper atmosphere. (hint: It requires a magnetic field, which the poles are a little short on). Ozone at ground level is a polutant, and there is no transfer between the upper atmosphere and ground level. There was some speculation that modern jet aviation helps RESTORE the ozone layer as the ozone in its combustion by-products is released at altitude, but I haven't kept up on the research to see if they ever got hard evidence to support that theory.

2nd, we aren't missing any oxygen. The levels of CO2 people are complaining about are trival compared to the ammount of O2 in the air.

3rd, Aviation and modern automobiles are two of the WORST places to go looking for reductions in emissions. If you waved a magic wand and made the planes and cars built next year put out 1/2 the CO2 of today... It would be lost in the noise of total human caused CO2.
 
phxa340
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 22):

Your clearly not an economics major ? The EU needs the US and Asia as much they need the EU. You understand that LH and BA make a ton of revenue off its N American routes right ? And if the US said fine your payin the same tax our side it would be detrimental to EU airlines. The claim that nobody can do anything about this is laughable. Asia and the US will retaliate but cooler heads will prevail and this will get settled in a haphazard way eventually.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 39):

If the EU think that the ETS complies with the Chicago Convention, then they can try to enforce it through filing under it against the USA and Russia and China and India and the other countries which are not compliant.

I love how you take the failure of ETS so personally and try to spin it's demise.

I can't wait for the EU to start impounding planes
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 42):

Yet again you fail to provide support for your statements. All you have are snarky comments. You can't even provide support from the site you linked.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 25):
You can object to anything you like, but you are still wrong.

Pot, kettle, black.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18858
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 19):
Quoting cmf (Reply 11):

The ETS is based on the fuel efficiency (CO2 emitted per RPK and RTK) of the foreign airline's aircraft fleet. That is how they measure the fuel efficiency of an airline and what their baseline credits are.

But as I understand it, the scheme was only intended to apply to airlines with flights to/from the EU. I don't understand why you seem to be saying that it applies to airlines that never even enter EU airspace.
 
harleydriver
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:54 pm

This is the problem with the ETS as it stands. The fact that an aircraft departing LAX as an example with a destination of Shannon, Ireland would need to purchase credits for the duration of the flight, as a rough estimates I will use a nine hour flight with maybe an hour at the most of the flight in European Airspace yet the European Union will reap the benefits of the fees for that whole duration. Why should the airline pay the European fees for the entire flight when that flight was in U.S. and Canadian airspace for a majority of the flight?

It's no secret that most countries outside the EU are opposed to these fees as while there was an attempt to negotiate these fees, when negotiation didn't work the EU tried to just imposed the fees anyway. If the fees were to be charged for just the duration of the flight over EU airspace I feel there would be a lot less resistance but it would still need to be negotiated. The Chinese government delayed and almost canceled Hong Kong Airlines purchase of A380's. I believe the order is still on hold and might be cancelled but it's due to market conditions and their cancelling their London route and no longer tied to the ETS.

My question is where would the fees paid for credits go? Who within the EU receives the money and how would it be spent within the EU, plant more trees maybe and since its being collected for the duration of the flight no matter the duration of the flight in European airspace, how much of the money received for the credit will go to other countries like Russia for the duration of flights that cross their airspace since European to Asia flights spend a significant amount of time over Russian airspace.
Department of Redundancy Department
 
cmf
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting harleydriver (Reply 45):
This is the problem with the ETS as it stands. The fact that an aircraft departing LAX as an example with a destination of Shannon, Ireland would need to purchase credits for the duration of the flight, as a rough estimates I will use a nine hour flight with maybe an hour at the most of the flight in European Airspace yet the European Union will reap the benefits of the fees for that whole duration. Why should the airline pay the European fees for the entire flight when that flight was in U.S. and Canadian airspace for a majority of the flight?

How is this different from the APD implementations where you pay depending on the length of the flight? Or the Indian APD where the rate is different depending on what country you're flying to and sometimes depending on where you're flying after that country?

Quoting harleydriver (Reply 45):
My question is where would the fees paid for credits go?

Most credits are given out so no revenue for them. Most of the remaining credits are bought from companies not needing their allocation. The money collected for the few credits sold by governments to airlines are earmarked for environmental use.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2118
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 46):
How is this different from the APD implementations where you pay depending on the length of the flight? Or the Indian APD where the rate is different depending on what country you're flying to and sometimes depending on where you're flying after that country?

It has been explained to you over and over, yet you still don't seem to get it.

Those are APDs and are allowed under internationa aviation treaties...That is why they were not protested against by other nations.

The EU and it's member nationws is free to initiate such APDs (and indeed some have).

The ETS Scheme is not allowed under international aviation treaties (at least according to the Governments of the USA, China, Russia, India, and many other countries, despite what the ECJ might think).

Quoting cmf (Reply 46):
Most credits are given out so no revenue for them. Most of the remaining credits are bought from companies not needing their allocation. The money collected for the few credits sold by governments to airlines are earmarked for environmental use.

They start out with most credits free, and then decrease the amount of credits each airline gets each year...so the airlines will be forced in the long run to either shrink their operations year over year, or pay the EU for more credits.

It is just another tax scheme with tax raises planned into it from the beginning...but they will say it costs almost nothing...at the beginning...A big old camel nose.

And from what I have read, the member nations are not required to spend the additional tax receitps on the environment...it goes into their general fund.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2172
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:11 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 47):
so the airlines will be forced in the long run to either shrink their operations year over year, or pay the EU for more credits.

They can buy credits from anybody who has them, say other companies, even other airlines who have taken steps to reduce their emissions.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/380
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2118
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RE: Obama Signs Bill To Block EU ETS Participation

Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:57 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 48):
They can buy credits from anybody who has them, say other companies, even other airlines who have taken steps to reduce their emissions.

Only if there are credits available...which the Governments control the supply and can arbitrarily change the amount available merely by changing the amount they provide "free". Otherwise they must "buy" these indulgences from the EU High Priests.

Just another scam by politicians to line their own pockets.

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