TC957
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KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:54 am

Sad news...last flight ICN - LGW is 12 Jan. Had the news from my source at LGW and also Galileo showing all dates closed for reservation after 12 Jan.
A real blow. I guess they should have stuck to their orginal flight timings, as timings are too close to their LHR flight now, so no choice for buisness travellers.
 
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:55 am

The sad truth is, LGW is never going to work as a major long haul hub when the airlines and passengers all want to fly to LHR.
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
 
TC957
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:06 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 1):

Try telling that to all the business travellers in the Brighton area,East Sussex and Kent.
 
gkirk
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:07 am

Have they managed to get extra slots at LHR then?
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ba319-131
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:11 am

So, LGW have/are loosing LH, KE HX, who next? - US when the CLT-LHR slot opens next year?

Quoting gkirk (Reply 3):
Have they managed to get extra slots at LHR then?

- No.

I suspect this was going to happen anyway with BA starting up again on the ICN route, just too much capacity.
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:13 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 2):
Try telling that to all the business travellers in the Brighton area,East Sussex and Kent.

If they were there in the quantities you suggest, LGW would be linked to the likes of LAX, SFO, SIN, HKG, ICN.

Gatwick doesn't even have a flight to New York; not even a measly, tiny little UA 757. need I go on ??

There is demand, though it's only a small but quite vocal market.

Rgds
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fcogafa
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:13 am

I wonder if this makes an A380 more likely for the LHR service? When LGW service started the LHR flights mostly went from B744 to B77W, presumably because the loads were split.

[Edited 2012-11-29 03:22:58]

[Edited 2012-11-29 03:23:35]
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:34 am

I think the title is a bit misleading, think you should have wrote pulling out of LGW, instead of pulling off, either way sad to see them leaving LGW.
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
richardw
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:06 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 2):
Try telling that to all the business travellers in the Brighton area,East Sussex and Kent.

They're all switching to KL from MSE via AMS.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 4):
So, LGW have/are loosing LH, KE HX, who next?

LH is a seasonal cut. They are back in Summer 2013.

http://buyingbusinesstravel.com/news...ansa-end-gatwick-frankfurt-flights

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:15 pm

This is only a seasonal cut by KE. The route returns on 27 April 2013.
 
LondonCity
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:23 pm

The KE route suspension is now confirmed. It will end on January 12 but restart on April 27.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...ean-to-suspend-gatwick-seoul-route
 
EddieDude
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 6):

I wonder if this makes an A380 more likely for the LHR service? When LGW service started the LHR flights mostly went from B744 to B77W, presumably because the loads were split.

Good point. I wonder the same. I think LHR will get the A380 sooner or later.
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jet72uk
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:36 pm

I have some load figures for both LGW and LHR. Apr-Sep the LGW route was 87% load factor whereas LHR was 91%. Forward bookings for winter were poor for LGW which is why route will operate summer only. Winter from LHR isn't great but of course they will not pull LHR. I'm sure LGW are quite happy with this arrangement. LHR now has BA, KE and Asiana competing on the route so naturally KE will suffer.
 
spud757
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:02 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 1):

It's not passengers who want to fly from LHR, it's airlines that are LHR obsessed because of its hub status which forces pax in SE to 'choose' LHR because that's where the flight options are. Catch 22.

LHR isn't properly connected to the national rail network so it's a nightmare to access via rail unless you live in London. most pax going to/from LHR by rail have to use the tube or express/connect into Paddington and then change to Euston, kings cross, St Pancras, Liverpool St, Victoria stations to get out of London. Whereas LGW and STN have direct terminal connections onto national rail making them more pax friendly if the airlines served them.

Outside of the SE in the regions it's often better to fly east bound or to africa via AMS, CDG, FRA, BRU or use facilities like MAN to fly transatlantic on UA, AA, DL, US, VS, EI or eastbound on SQ, EK, QR, EY and AY.
MAN has great national rail connections and with the BE hub it offers interlining from other parts of the British isles on longhaul services.
 
babybus
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 1):
The sad truth is, LGW is never going to work as a major long haul hub when the airlines and passengers all want to fly to LHR.

For many Londoners LGW is just as convenient as LHR if not more convenient. If you are going to the centre of London LGW is probably the better airport.

I think any lack of support for a route out of Gatwick is due to the lack of advertising and different facilities. Everyone knows that Heathrow serves the world. Gatwick has longer security queues and the South Terminal feels like a shopping centre. North Terminal involves walks to the gate that are far too long.

It is also possible that a flight out of Gatwick may not have the same level of in-flight service as a flight out of Heathrow. It is this that usually affects which airport I fly from.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
vectismanpaul
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:19 pm

I believe on most BA flights from Gatwick especially since the introduction of the new catering schedules the level of in-flight service is pretty similar to Heathrow with probably no difference on their long haul flights for the classes operated.

V.
 
skipness1E
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:53 pm

They're not obsessives they're business. The same aircraft will make X profit at LGW and X+Y at LHR. BA can't make LGW-JFK work well enough. It's business, not personal.
 
vectismanpaul
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:13 pm

Skipness 1E is absolutely correct. However I believe both he and myself agree that there is room for a decent BA operation focused on point to point short and long haul primarily leisure traffic, which on the correct routes can have a decent yield. Any business traffic and connecting traffic on top of that is icing on the cake.
Sorry Skipness if I have assumed too much but I respect your understanding of these matters.
V.
 
LGWflyer
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:28 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 17):
They're not obsessives they're business. The same aircraft will make X profit at LGW and X+Y at LHR. BA can't make LGW-JFK work well enough. It's business, not personal.

Could someone like AA who are strong partners with BA have at least one daily 757 flight to LGW? I know this has been mentioned loads of times but now with US Airways maybe about to leave LGW as well, I'd like to see at least a US airline have a route from here. I'd rather fly from here than go up to LHR as many people would, could they make it work now that no DL and maybe US are not at Gatwick?
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ZaphodB
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:00 pm

Whether it is justified or not (in terms of financial demographics it probably isn't) LHR has achieved the critical mass (including global name recognition) necessary to suck in all the high yield traffic in the south east. Crossrail will soon eliminate Gatwick's trump card - faster train connections to The City and West End. LGWs future probably is EZY, the beach fleets of BA & VS, and maybe Eireflot and FlyBE ... it isn't going to compete with LHR for carriers like KE.

It's not much different here - neither I nor anyone I work with would willingly go down to MIA if there were direct flights from FLL (even though FLL is getting increasingly ratty and most of MIA has improved a lot) but MIA has the critical mass where the number of non-stop destinations and the number of connection possibilities pulls in the traffic. Despite the attention seeking nouveau riche in Miami most of the money fled northwards a long time ago, and most of MIA's natural catchment area is absolutely dirt poor ... but MIA has that critical mass and there is no way FLL or PBI can compete.
 
migair54
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 19):
Could someone like AA who are strong partners with BA have at least one daily 757 flight to LGW? I know this has been mentioned loads of times but now with US Airways maybe about to leave LGW as well, I'd like to see at least a US airline have a route from here. I'd rather fly from here than go up to LHR as many people would, could they make it work now that no DL and maybe US are not at Gatwick?

I also think that they could make it work, they have plenty of flights to LHR so why not to try one to LGW??

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 17):
BA can't make LGW-JFK work well enough. It's business, not personal.

Because they need to dedicate a crew, plane and resources out of the normal operating base, but AA is just a few hotel rooms and let all the other to BA handling and etc....

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12):
Good point. I wonder the same. I think LHR will get the A380 sooner or later.

I´m not sure, specially now than BA is also on the route, i think they can make more revenue in other places.

Quoting babybus (Reply 15):
It is also possible that a flight out of Gatwick may not have the same level of in-flight service as a flight out of Heathrow. It is this that usually affects which airport I fly from.

In flight meal is a contract with LSG or Skychefs or whatever, so you get what you pay for... so they can get a very good product, quite similar if not the same than in LHR, in flight service must be KE standards because that doesn´t depend on the destination but the airline. The only thing might be the business lounges.
 
fcogafa
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:51 pm

I can't recall Virgin being mentioned as an airline who should operate LGW-NYC. They have a large operation there so why not?

Probably the same reason no-one else wants to.....
 
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lightsaber
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:01 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 2):
Try telling that to all the business travellers in the Brighton area,East Sussex and Kent.

As already noted, if there were that many, the flights would be profitable and would stick around.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 5):
Gatwick doesn't even have a flight to New York; not even a measly, tiny little UA 757. need I go on ??

Wow... That amazes me. Time for TATL NEO or MAX to put something on that route...

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 17):
The same aircraft will make X profit at LGW and X+Y at LHR. BA can't make LGW-JFK work well enough. It's business, not personal.

And that is the route cause. Now that BA has the BMI slots, I expect some of their LGW operation to move over to take advantage of the connections. Its not personal, as noted, it is the 'economy of scale' of the major hub.

Which is why I do not understand why LHR isn't expanding!    "Economy of scale" is always relative. With air travel set to continue its doubling ever 15 years, LHR's relative 'economy of scale' is going to drop (e.g., versus PVG, the new Beijing, ICN, DWC, the new Istanbul 5-runway airport, FRA w/new terminal, CLT/IAD/IAH, and other major airports). While it will always be a important airport, the competitiveness will drop without expansion. There is an old phrase in industry "you grow or you rot." LHR doesn't have much growth ahead...

Lightsaber
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skipness1E
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:29 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 21):
Because they need to dedicate a crew, plane and resources out of the normal operating base, but AA is just a few hotel rooms and let all the other to BA handling and etc....

Think you've got that one round the wrong way. The core reason is that if they want to put another aircraft onto NYC-LON, the optimal position is JFK-LHR. LGW is sub-optimal in that the yield is lower, as demonstrated by the actions of BA, VS, DL, CO, NW and US who have ALL moved most/all routes out of LGW. The remainder fall into a different pot of point to point high yield leisure and this is why BA and VS maintain the Beach Fleet out of Gatters.

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 19):
Could someone like AA who are strong partners with BA have at least one daily 757 flight to LGW? I know this has been mentioned loads of times but now with US Airways maybe about to leave LGW as well, I'd like to see at least a US airline have a route from here. I'd rather fly from here than go up to LHR as many people would, could they make it work now that no DL and maybe US are not at Gatwick?

They could, however they won't as it's not the optimal place to do so as per above. If it was worth doing, the yield on the one remaining LGW-US on US Airways would have made it worthwhile to keep it on.

Quoting vectismanpaul (Reply 18):
However I believe both he and myself agree that there is room for a decent BA operation focused on point to point short and long haul primarily leisure traffic, which on the correct routes can have a decent yield. Any business traffic and connecting traffic on top of that is icing on the cake.

Agreed, the ERJ-190 might be a better bet for LGW business type routes but that's not the business model at the moment. I understand long haul does rather well and short haul is an accepted loss maker ( to an extent ! ) as they need somewhere for the DYKWIAs of this world to spend all those hard earmed AVIOS points. Not sure how much I believe that LGW short haul ever will stand on it's own merits as a profit making entity....
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:07 am

Just a sign of the times. More and more airlines are operating for seasons when they know they can make money, and not when they can't. Makes sense to me too...

If the profit from operating ICN-LGW can be made between APR-DEC and during the JAN-MAR that capacity can be used profitably on the ICN-AKL run, why would you as an airline do that?
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HeeseokKoo
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:59 am

Quoting jet72uk (Reply 13):
Apr-Sep the LGW route was 87% load factor whereas LHR was 91%.

The numbers are quite strong, although this summer would have been exceptional due to the olympics.

I can also imagine 380 will run for LHR without resuming LGW next year. KE didn't reveal where to put one of its 380s from Feb 2013 yet. Might be 3/w LHR? (In fact, it's down-gauged to 3x772 and 4x77W in Feb and Mar, which was determined long ago.) And between July and Sep 2013, two more 380s will be delivered. So there's decent possibility.
 
kdhurst380
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:53 am

Quoting babybus (Reply 15):
I think any lack of support for a route out of Gatwick is due to the lack of advertising and different facilities. Everyone knows that Heathrow serves the world. Gatwick has longer security queues and the South Terminal feels like a shopping centre. North Terminal involves walks to the gate that are far too long.

I'm not sure when you last flew out of LGW, but for the last 2 or so years, I haven't queued for more than 5 minutes, even during peak times. Gatwick is no more shopping centre than any other UK airport, personally I've found LHR T5 the worst of the bunch. I will give you the bit about long walks, although 95% of the airport piers have travelators.
 
jwhite9185
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 22):
I can't recall Virgin being mentioned as an airline who should operate LGW-NYC. They have a large operation there so why not?

Already operated LGW-EWR quite a few times over the years, but eventually shifted the VS001/2 to LHR around 1990, then the VS017/18 to LHR in 2001/2002.

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 27):
I'm not sure when you last flew out of LGW, but for the last 2 or so years, I haven't queued for more than 5 minutes, even during peak times. Gatwick is no more shopping centre than any other UK airport, personally I've found LHR T5 the worst of the bunch. I will give you the bit about long walks, although 95% of the airport piers have travelators.

Agreed.

LGW is my choice despite it being further from me than LHR although I used LHR more this year, due to the fact it has the routes I want to fly.
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MAH4546
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RE: KE Pulling Off LGW Route.

Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting ZaphodB (Reply 20):
Despite the attention seeking nouveau riche in Miami most of the money fled northwards a long time ago, and most of MIA's natural catchment area is absolutely dirt poor ... but MIA has that critical mass and there is no way FLL or PBI can compete.

Like it or not, Miami also has a much wealtheir catchment area and significantly more business traffic. Doesn't help that FLL is as close to third-world as any airport in the U.S. gets. It's better than LaGuardia, but that's about it.

Gatwick suffers not because of lack of demand, but because of how airlines want to allocate their resources. Why send a plane LGW-JFK when that same exact plane can be used to fly LHR-JFK more profitably? And that same reason applies to why FLL, BWI, PHL, etc. lack a lot of international service despite strong regional demand.
a.