G500
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Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:37 pm

For many years Gulfstream has completely dominated the long-range business jet market. The BBJ, ACJ and Global Xprss haven't being able to pose a serious threat.

However, even though Gulfstream has a 5 year backlog for the 7000nm G-650, it's Bombardier who has secured two multi-billion dollar orders for the Globals 5000/6000/7000/8000 (Netjets,Vista Jet) lately

It looks like in 4-5 years, Bombardier will offer the biz jet with the longest range available, the 7900NM Global 8000

Has the king been dethroned?
 
BMI727
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
Has the king been dethroned?

No. A lot of it is the market getting larger since, as you point out, Gulfstream isn't really doing worse.

The BBJ and ACJ will be fringe competitors since as converted airliners they will never offer the performance a purpose built business jet can. Of course those will never offer the space of a BBJ or ACJ, but I doubt the airliners are really making people at Gulfstream or Bombardier lose sleep.

As far as Gulfstream goes, I'm not sure that they are actually losing much ground. Remember that we don't know how much the Globals purchased in those larger orders are actually going for. It could be that Bombardier is trying to help make sure their backlogs are filled up until the Global 7000 and 8000 come to market.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:55 pm

Not likely. The fact that Netjets went with the global rather than the 650 has more to do with the EJA union than the actual product that Gulfstream makes.
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:20 pm

For folks like Netjets - going with Bombardier puts more aircraft in their fleet faster than going to Gulfstream. Because the Gulfstream order book and production line is so solidly sold out.

One concern I have is that we've seen big orders announced by companies like Netjets and VistaJet before - and almost never is the full number of aircraft delivered.

Both orders are bets that the economy will grow significantly over the next 10 years. If there is any major economic distruption in Europe - the VistaJet order will be cut back significantly. Same thing in the US with Netjets whose order is a bet on major economic improvement in the US over the next few years.
 
G500
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 3):

Agree about the fact that these companies rarely ever exercise all the options

Here's a link " Netjets takes delivery of their first Global"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...-with-plane-orders-after-glut.html
 
Viscount724
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
For many years Gulfstream has completely dominated the long-range business jet market. The BBJ, ACJ and Global Xprss haven't being able to pose a serious threat.

What do you consider a serious threat? Bombardier's market share in the large business jet market (based on deliveries) for the past few years has been close to 40%. That sounds like a fairly serious threat in a market with 3 major competitors.

[Edited 2012-11-29 12:50:15]
 
DashTrash
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 2):
Not likely. The fact that Netjets went with the global rather than the 650 has more to do with the EJA union than the actual product that Gulfstream makes.

Care to elaborate?
 
lhcvg
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 6):

Care to elaborate?

I think he's saying it was a subjective opinion of the union (they lobbied for the BBD for whatever reason), rather than any particular technical deficiency of the 650.
 
G500
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):

Correct, like you said "for the past few years", in the 80s and 90s Gulfstream has a monopoly in the long - haul bizjet market with the G-III and G-IV. The G-V and 550 came along with the Global Express. It was then that things started to even out. Now Bombardier is selling Globals like crazy, that's why I started this thread

Dassault is selling the 7X fairly well, but I don't see them selling more than Bombardier or Gulfstream
 
DashTrash
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 7):
I think he's saying it was a subjective opinion of the union (they lobbied for the BBD for whatever reason), rather than any particular technical deficiency of the 650.

The union has never had a say whatsoever in any airframe NJA has bought. Period. NJASAP has also never lobbied for one manufacturer over another, either.
 
fcogafa
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:13 pm

A few years ago, Netjets orderd about 25 Falcon 7X. They cancelled most and currently only operate 3.
 
G500
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:14 pm

Netjets probably got a better deal from Bombardier than Gulfstream, the decision to switch from G-V/550s to Globals was influenced by several factors, not product..... G-550s and Globals match each other evenly
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:25 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 11):
the decision to switch from G-V/550s to Globals was influenced by several factors, not product..

Agreed, and I think one factor is that Bombardier probably does a better sales job for large orders (financing, customer support, vendor guarantees, training, marketing and operational studies, etc.). Netjets and Vistajet are becoming F Class Only sort of airlines, and Bombardier knows how to put together such business cases and services needs to operate large fleets under one operator from their commercial aircraft arm. Isn't Steve Ridolfi who is the president of Business Aircraft a previous president of Commercial Aircraft at Bombardier? In any case, bravo for Bombardier and Vistajet for this week's big announcement.
Only the paranoid survive
 
BMI727
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:34 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
The G-V and 550 came along with the Global Express. It was then that things started to even out. Now Bombardier is selling Globals like crazy, that's why I started this thread

But how do Guflstream's sales look? Yes, Bombardier is now selling plenty of large business jets, but I don't think it's coming at the expense of Gulfstream but rather expansion in the market.

Quoting g500 (Reply 11):
Netjets probably got a better deal from Bombardier than Gulfstream, the decision to switch from G-V/550s to Globals was influenced by several factors, not product..... G-550s and Globals match each other evenly

That's what I was thinking. Gulfstream is the one with the new product, while Bombardier is the one that needs to keep their assembly line moving and revenues healthy while they develop a couple of new planes.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
DashTrash
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RE: Global Express Vs Gulfstream, Is The Tide Turning.

Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
Netjets probably got a better deal from Bombardier than Gulfstream, the decision to switch from G-V/550s to Globals was influenced by several factors, not product..... G-550s and Globals match each other evenly

That's what I was thinking. Gulfstream is the one with the new product, while Bombardier is the one that needs to keep their assembly line moving and revenues healthy while they develop a couple of new planes.

I believe Bombardier agreed to buy back older airframes much like Embraer did when NJA ordered the Phenoms. When that order went down, EMB bought all of the Ultras. In this case I think Bombardier agreed to take the Falcons or something.

Cancellation language is also a huge driving factor. Pilot negotiations are coming soon and the company is going to want concessions. Those Globals are going to be held as a carrot to try and get them. NJA also isn't going to take an airframe they can't sell. NJA isn't like the airlines. We don't sell seats, we sell airplanes.