LAXintl
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G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:49 pm

Allegiant, Spirit and Southwest Airlines have petitioned the US Supreme Court in their effort to overturn DOT's recent mandate on ticket pricing to include all government taxes and fees, along with the departments policies such as mandating 24-hour refund period even on non-refundable tickets.

The airlines argue that the DOT violates the industries First Amendment rights in mandating that they must advertise total cost tickets, which restricts airlines truthful speech about the larger and ever growing share of each ticket that consist of government taxes and fees. As part of the 1978 Deregulation Act passed by Congress, the intent was that the marketplace would determine price and airlines as virtually every other industry in America were free to advertise products on a pre-tax basis. The DOT rules even further limit the airlines ability to prominently identify government imposed taxes and fees by requiring such information be in significantly smaller type.

Secondly, the DOT exceeded its statutory mandate to arbitrarily require airlines to begin allowing customers to cancel and offer full refunds within 24-hours of purchase even though consumers opted to select fares with clearly disclosed conditions that do not allow refunds. Airlines argue that this action is a form of regulation on pricing and market competitiveness which also goes against the Deregulation Act that recognized that the availability of a variety of open market fare options and their applicable restrictions would be pro-competitive for both the consumer and sellers.


Writ of Certiorari:
http://www.airlineinfo.com/ost14/ost112912.html#Spirit

=

[Edited 2012-11-30 08:56:19]
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enilria
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:09 pm

I think they will win, but let's be honest. The real issue is that NK was taking advantage of this to create tons of fees that are not tax related. IMHO, actual govt taxes should be excluded, but not other fees which are really airline levied.
 
PHX787
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 1):
I think they will win, but let's be honest. The real issue is that NK was taking advantage of this to create tons of fees that are not tax related. IMHO, actual govt taxes should be excluded, but not other fees which are really airline levied.

Agreed but it is a sly move by the airlines.
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wedgetail737
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:13 pm

It's the airlines' attempt to provide false advertising to the public on the true price of the ticket. I think the airline needs to be upfront with all of the fees and taxes. I think it's wrong for an airline to advertise $39 ticket when the actual price will be $99.80 with all the fees and taxes.
 
Mir
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
It's the airlines' attempt to provide false advertising to the public on the true price of the ticket.

   And there are false advertising regulations in this country designed for consumer protection, so this isn't without precedent. I do think that the rule will hold up.

As for the second issue of the 24-hour refund rule, that I could see being struck down. I hope it isn't, since I've taken advantage of that sort of thing (though not on any of the complainant airlines), but I would understand if it were.

-Mir
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seven3seven
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
I think it's wrong for an airline to advertise $39 ticket when the actual price will be $99.80 with all the fees and taxes.

You can mostly blame the govt for taxing the bejeezus out of the airlines and its consumers. Hiding the taxes in the fare will just allow the govt. to increase airline taxes without you even realizing it. What you should be doing is protesting the govt.'s need to outrageously tax the airline industry.

The airlines are correct to be fighting this fight and I think they will win. If the industry is deregulated than what is this rule to require showing entire fares about? Sometimes the govt. is wrong
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kcrwflyer
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
It's the airlines' attempt to provide false advertising to the public on the true price of the ticket. I think the airline needs to be upfront with all of the fees and taxes. I think it's wrong for an airline to advertise $39 ticket when the actual price will be $99.80 with all the fees and taxes.

They should only have to advertise the price including mandatory fees, which they've been doing. I don't know a conventional way to market a product with dozens of service combinations that would affect the price.

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 5):
You can mostly blame the govt for taxing the bejeezus out of the airlines and its consumers. Hiding the taxes in the fare will just allow the govt. to increase airline taxes without you even realizing it. What you should be doing is protesting the govt.'s need to outrageously tax the airline industry.

True enough. Though you always get the argument of "someone has to pay for the FAA and ATC and all of the infrastructure" I'm sure there's a happy medium that will never be reached.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:54 pm

As much as I love WN (and conversely hate NK and G4), I hope they lose this.

The lack of advertising the taxes and fees is nothing more than a bait-and-switch. And what's so wrong with the 24 hour rule?
 
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mayor
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:20 pm

The way I look at it, the DOT is trying to hide from the flying public just how much of that fare is taxes. The DOT has a nasty habit of changing the rules to make them look better. They did the same thing with the on-time stats in the late 80s.
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FWAERJ
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:28 pm

Any word on whether G4's blocked plans to offer a fare option based on fuel prices (where one would pay extra if fuel went up from the time of ticket purchases) are also part of this Supreme Court case?

G4 was making a big hissy over that when the DOT issued their regulations.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 7):

As much as I love WN (and conversely hate NK and G4), I hope they lose this.

I hope they lose this, too. However, I like WN (still offering great service, even though they don't serve my home airport), and I like G4 as well (good service, and they bring low vacation fares to small-town airports that leisure travelers would otherwise ignore). However, it will be a cold day in hell before I step on an NK Airbus.
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FWAERJ
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 8):
The way I look at it, the DOT is trying to hide from the flying public just how much of that fare is taxes.
NK was making that exact argument on their website when the new rules came into effect.

IIRC, NK's CEO Ben Baldanza also thinks that air travel in the US is overtaxed. (He must not have seen the air travel taxes in our friendly neighbor to the north...)

[Edited 2012-11-30 11:39:46]
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RyanairGuru
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:33 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
he DOT exceeded its statutory mandate to arbitrarily require airlines to begin allowing customers to cancel and offer full refunds within 24-hours of purchase even though consumers opted to select fares with clearly disclosed conditions that do not allow refunds.

This bit I can definitely see being overturned. Unless the DOT lawyers find a clever way to couch it in terms of Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce, then I'd suggest that it violates the freedom to contract.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Allegiant, Spirit and Southwest Airlines have petitioned the US Supreme Court in their effort to overturn DOT's recent mandate on ticket pricing to include all government taxes and fees

I feel that this will be harder for them to argue. While I understand that aviation is one of the few industries that is required to advertise prices including tax, it is also one of the few that is entirely taxed at the federal level. Therefore taxes are uniform across the nation, whereas in other industries - such as retail - it would not be possible to adopt after-tax advertising because the level of tax levied varies from state to state. And to couch this in terms of freedom of speech seems to be drawing a very long bow!
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deltairlines
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 6):
They should only have to advertise the price including mandatory fees, which they've been doing. I don't know a conventional way to market a product with dozens of service combinations that would affect the price.

Agreed.

When I go to Best Buy to buy my nice, new big screen TV that's advertised in the Sunday flyer, it says it's $999 (or whatever). It doesn't say in the total price that I get to pay a nice little bit of money in sales tax to various government entities at all (maybe it does in the fine print, but it sure doesn't say anywhere until I get to checkout how much in tax I owe).

It's a double standard for the airline industry.

AIrline-included fees should be included, but taxes should be seperate. Heck, on some routes the taxes can vary between the O&D based on what hub you might be connecting in (ie MEM has a much lower PFC than ATL).
 
JONC777
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:44 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 7):
The lack of advertising the taxes and fees is nothing more than a bait-and-switch

If you go to target and buy a toothbush for $2.99 you take it to the register and the price is $3.24 including taxes. Thats nowhere on the lable, and its just accepted in the U.S. that taxes are added to goods and services. Why is the airline industry being singled out in this issue? No other industry is forced to include the amount of taxes in any advsertised price. Its just not fair.
 
alasizon
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:54 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
$39 ticket when the actual price will be $99.80 with all the fees and taxes.

While I think that taxes should be known, advertising the ticket as $39 is very correct as that is what the airline is charging you to get you from point A to point B. The additional taxes and fees are not airline imposed, they are just required to be collected by the airlines. It is just like sales tax in stores, in order to get your items, you need to pay the sales tax as well at the register even though it is not the store charging you the sales tax. Stores can advertise their prices pre-tax, no reason why the airline industry shouldn't be able to as well.

The DOT, in my opinion, overstepped their bounds on this one. In this day and age, anyone who thinks that there are no taxes on a purchase of any kind is quite foolish and it is obvious that there will be taxes, no reason for airlines to disclose them as part of their ticket price when they are not actually part of the ticket price, rather the fees on the ticket.
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Mir
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 13):
If you go to target and buy a toothbush for $2.99 you take it to the register and the price is $3.24 including taxes. Thats nowhere on the lable, and its just accepted in the U.S. that taxes are added to goods and services. Why is the airline industry being singled out in this issue? No other industry is forced to include the amount of taxes in any advsertised price. Its just not fair.

When Southwest starts competing with Oral-B, then you'd have a point. But as long as the rule is applied consistently across the airline industry, it's entirely fair.

Quoting Alasizon (Reply 14):
In this day and age, anyone who thinks that there are no taxes on a purchase of any kind is quite foolish and it is obvious that there will be taxes

Here's the difference: let's say I go into a store and compare Item A ($10) and Item B ($14). Because they're in the same store, both have an 8% sales tax, so I can figure out relatively what I'm going to pay for each item, and I can certainly tell which of the two is more expensive. That's not the case with air travel taxes or fees, which may vary based on routing, airline, etc. So I can't see which is actually cheaper until I go through the booking processes for both, which is a waste of my time.

-Mir
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Maverick623
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:13 pm

Lots and lots of misconceptions in this thread.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
It's the airlines' attempt to provide false advertising to the public on the true price of the ticket. I think the airline needs to be upfront with all of the fees and taxes. I think it's wrong for an airline to advertise $39 ticket when the actual price will be $99.80 with all the fees and taxes.

So when the auto dealership does the same thing, it's not false advertising? Why does EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY save one get a free pass?

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
And there are false advertising regulations in this country designed for consumer protection, so this isn't without precedent.

There is exactly ONE other industry that is required to include all taxes in the advertised price: Gasoline. So clearly, omitting taxes from advertised prices is NOT "false advertising".

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 7):
The lack of advertising the taxes and fees is nothing more than a bait-and-switch.

You really need to look up the definition of bait-and-switch.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 11):
it is also one of the few that is entirely taxed at the federal level.

False. Individual airports set their own PFCs (which I've seen range from $1 to $30, with the average being about $10).

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The DOT rules even further limit the airlines ability to prominently identify government imposed taxes and fees by requiring such information be in significantly smaller type.

If anything is going to get overturned, that one is it. Total 1st Amendment violation with zero precedent.
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AWACSooner
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 13):
If you go to target and buy a toothbush for $2.99 you take it to the register and the price is $3.24 including taxes. Thats nowhere on the lable, and its just accepted in the U.S. that taxes are added to goods and services. Why is the airline industry being singled out in this issue? No other industry is forced to include the amount of taxes in any advsertised price. Its just not fair.

What other industries randomly introduce nickel-and-dime fees the way the airline industry does? This isn't about the taxes and we all know it.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

You really need to look up the definition of bait-and-switch.

No need to be condescending!
 
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
False. Individual airports set their own PFCs (which I've seen range from $1 to $30, with the average being about $10).

In which case that further builds the case for including them in advertising. At least if I go to a store here in NC I know that 6-7% will be added (depending on the county). I don't, however, have the first clue what the difference in cost would be for flying out of RDU as opposed to GSO.
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Mir
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
There is exactly ONE other industry that is required to include all taxes in the advertised price: Gasoline. So clearly, omitting taxes from advertised prices is NOT "false advertising".

And gasoline taxes being included in the price has never been struck down by the courts. So clearly, there is precedent for this sort of regulation.

-Mir
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nkops
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:35 pm

Rental cars are just as bad at this... you ever see the taxes and fees on rental cars? However, every airline website I have been on shows you the TOTAL price before you have to pay for it, you can always get out of it before confirming... If they showed you one price, then changed it after you confirmed and paid, then it would be bait and switch.
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spiritair97
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:36 pm

What has WN ever done that puts them in this category of airlines? I never noticed any fals advertising or outrageous fees with them. Can somebody enlighten me a bit?

That being said, WN is one of my favorite airlines, but my entire being is based on principles, and this is breaking a big one. You don't pull such slimy moves like false advertising or covering up fees and taxes, and then try to pull something like this! I don't see how this was even allowed to go to court, as it is a method of protecting the common good and the well-being of the people.
 
FWAERJ
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 21):

What has WN ever done that puts them in this category of airlines? I never noticed any fals advertising or outrageous fees with them. Can somebody enlighten me a bit?

WN, G4, and NK are all LCCs that don't like the fact that they can't show rock-bottom fares before tax anymore.

WN's opposition is strictly limited to including government and other taxes and fees in fares and the 24-hour cancellation rule, and there are some parts of the DOT rules that WN likes. G4 and NK, however, have much deeper grudges, and many of these have been mentioned in depth in this thread.
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spiritair97
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 22):
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 21):
What has WN ever done that puts them in this category of airlines? I never noticed any fals advertising or outrageous fees with them. Can somebody enlighten me a bit?
WN, G4, and NK are all LCCs that don't like the fact that they can't show rock-bottom fares before tax anymore.

WN's opposition is strictly limited to including government and other taxes and fees in fares and the 24-hour cancellation rule, and there are some parts of the DOT rules that WN likes. G4 and NK, however, have much deeper grudges, and many of these have been mentioned in depth in this thread.

Oh, thanks! I have notice recenty that WN's fres are not as cheapas they used to be. I don't know if this had anything to do wth that, but what cost me around $150 on WN last year costs me $400 this year!
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:24 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
So when the auto dealership does the same thing, it's not false advertising? Why does EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY save one get a free pass?

Many of us assume that the advertised price is a starting point, and that we will end up paying less.
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hatbutton
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:32 am

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 17):

What other industries randomly introduce nickel-and-dime fees the way the airline industry does?

Plenty. If I go to a baseball game, all I pay for is a seat. If I want any food or drinks I have to pay an astounding amount for it because in many places, once you're in there's no re-entry. So I'm at the mercy of their prices. If you want a massage at a beach resort you pay for it after you've paid for your room. Plenty of hotels charge hourly for internet usage. They're all ancillary fees not inherent in the original service purchased.

Not everyone checks a bag on a flight, so it would be pretty silly to advertise a fare with a bag fee included if a passenger doesn't need to check a bag. Now, when it comes to things like convenience or booking fees, fees that you have no way of getting out of paying, I totally agree that those should be included in the price tag. But if it is a fee like onboard internet, or a bag fee, I don't think they should be included in any base price.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 17):
This isn't about the taxes and we all know it.

How is it not? If it was about more then wouldn't they be requesting more changes?

Government taxes and fees on airline tickets are outrageous. This industry for whatever reason is every government's personal ATM. If the government wants airlines to be transparent in the way they price everything, piggybacking their fees onto the ticket price is not making things transparent for them.

I remember flying Ryanair once and finding a one way ticket for absolutely free. Zero Euros. When I went to book the ticket it was shocking that I was still going to have to pay 40 Euros because that was the price of all the taxes and fees from the governments. It certainly got my attention at how ludicrous some of these taxes and fees can be. If it was buried in the ticket price I might have never noticed, and that's precisely what the government wants. Nobody to be paying attention as they raise those fees.

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):

And gasoline taxes being included in the price has never been struck down by the courts. So clearly, there is precedent for this sort of regulation.

Why not start your own petition then to get every good or service in this country to show the all in price including taxes and fees?
 
usairways85
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:05 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 1):
I think they will win, but let's be honest. The real issue is that NK was taking advantage of this to create tons of fees that are not tax related. IMHO, actual govt taxes should be excluded, but not other fees which are really airline levied.

I can live with the listed fare including all fees (airport, fuel, premium cabin, etc.) but excludes strictly tax. One area that really frustrates me is the notorious fuel surcharge. Fuel surcharges to Europe have surged in the past year or so. That is part of the fare. I used to hate to see a $300 ai roundtrip fare to Europe only for a $400 fuel surcharge to be added to really make it $700
 
ouboy79
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:17 am

I'm somewhat shocked airlines don't say "your airfare is $$$ which includes $$$ in government fees and taxes." That would seem to get their point across, unless that isn't legal to present it that way.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 23):
Oh, thanks! I have notice recenty that WN's fres are not as cheapas they used to be. I don't know if this had anything to do wth that, but what cost me around $150 on WN last year costs me $400 this year!

Pay attention to the day you buy them on. WN does a lot of fare sales Tue-Thur or special ones on Fridays that can really drop the fares down a ton. A route I normally fly is about $240 one way. Last year WN had it on say for $130. This year that had a similar offering but the sale only ran for a few days and I didn't book in time. it is all about just being prepared. If the airfare is low enough to where you are able to jump on it, I always do. If the fares drops, I'll just go in and change my reservation to the same flights at the lower fare and get a fare credit to put on my trip.
 
jporterfi
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:50 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Writ of Certiorari:
http://www.airlineinfo.com/ost14/ost...pirit

Does anyone have a link that you can access without being a member of airlineinfo.com?
 
spiritair97
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:23 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 27):

I usually do ISP-BWI-CHS on Tues or Wed morning that leaves ISP at 0630ish and the flight I flew it last year for $130, but now it's $378. I guess gas prices and demand has gone up?
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:00 am

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 23):
Oh, thanks! I have notice recenty that WN's fres are not as cheapas they used to be. I don't know if this had anything to do wth that, but what cost me around $150 on WN last year costs me $400 this year!

That's not taxes, their fares have been on the rise for years and will continue to do so as costs rise.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 29):
I usually do ISP-BWI-CHS on Tues or Wed morning that leaves ISP at 0630ish and the flight I flew it last year for $130, but now it's $378. I guess gas prices and demand has gone up?

I'd say the introductory fares are long gone. Gas and demand shouldn't be all that different.
 
JHCRJ700
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:57 am

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
It's the airlines' attempt to provide false advertising to the public on the true price of the ticket. I think the airline needs to be upfront with all of the fees and taxes. I think it's wrong for an airline to advertise $39 ticket when the actual price will be $99.80 with all the fees and taxes

Agreed. Though it isn't a big deal per say, it would be nice to just have an up front cost from the get go.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 29):
I usually do ISP-BWI-CHS on Tues or Wed morning that leaves ISP at 0630ish and the flight I flew it last year for $130, but now it's $378. I guess gas prices and demand has gone up?

Is it still fair to call WN a LCC? In some cases their fares are higher than the legacy carriers.
RUSH
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:13 am

Count me as hoping the airlines lose this case as well.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
So when the auto dealership does the same thing, it's not false advertising?

Yes, but auto dealers don't double the price of the car because you want to buy it two days before Christmas.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 6):
They should only have to advertise the price including mandatory fees, which they've been doing. I don't know a conventional way to market a product with dozens of service combinations that would affect the price.

What needs to change is all booking engines like Kayak, Orbitz, etc. During the booking process, things like baggage and premium seating should be accounted for.

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 12):

It's a double standard for the airline industry.
Quoting JONC777 (Reply 13):
Why is the airline industry being singled out in this issue?

Boo hoo!! Outside of a sale offer, neither Best Buy or Target charges me a higher price on TV's or toothbrushes just because I purchase them at the counter versus pay for it 14 days earlier. Sorry, but the airlines brought this on themselves.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
Maverick623
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting nkops (Reply 20):
Rental cars are just as bad at this... you ever see the taxes and fees on rental cars?

Actually, rental car companies make it a point to capitalize and bold the taxes charged when you select a car... something the DOT has prohibited the airlines from doing. It's not rocket science either... when they quote "$35/day $185 total" for a 3 day rental, it's not hard to figure out what the taxes are. Again, something the airlines are prohibited from doing.

Quoting nkops (Reply 20):
If they showed you one price, then changed it after you confirmed and paid, then it would be bait and switch.

Which is, and has always been, illegal.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 21):
You don't pull such slimy moves like false advertising or covering up fees and taxes

Again, EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY does the same thing, except for gasoline. And it doesn't hurt them one bit, so they don't complain.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 21):
I don't see how this was even allowed to go to court, as it is a method of protecting the common good and the well-being of the people.

Not to be that guy, but the Nazis also used the "protecting the people" excuse for the atrocities they committed.

We have a court system for a reason.

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 24):
Many of us assume that the advertised price is a starting point, and that we will end up paying less.

Straw man. "Many people" and "assume" do not make a case.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 26):

I can live with the listed fare including all fees (airport, fuel, premium cabin, etc.) but excludes strictly tax.

For the record, airport fees are indeed a tax.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 26):
One area that really frustrates me is the notorious fuel surcharge. Fuel surcharges to Europe have surged in the past year or so. That is part of the fare. I used to hate to see a $300 ai roundtrip fare to Europe only for a $400 fuel surcharge to be added to really make it $700

  

Now THAT'S something that needs to be quashed. Although airlines for a few years now (of their own accord) have included "fuel surcharges" in the base fare, it is simply nothing more than tax evasion.

Also, when talking award tickets and mileage redemption, it is indeed a bait-and-switch tactic, as airlines often make people pay the fuel surcharge as a separate fee... yet you'd be hard pressed to find that little tidbit printed anywhere.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 27):


I'm somewhat shocked airlines don't say "your airfare is $$$ which includes $$$ in government fees and taxes." That would seem to get their point across, unless that isn't legal to present it that way.

That's part of the lawsuit; the the DOT has required airlines to post that info in a much smaller font and in a non-prominent way.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 32):
Yes, but auto dealers don't double the price of the car because you want to buy it two days before Christmas.

Um, that's how the free market works: everyone gets to set their own prices based on supply and demand. You can bet Best Buy jacks up prices during the holidays.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 32):
What needs to change is all booking engines like Kayak, Orbitz, etc. During the booking process, things like baggage and premium seating should be accounted for.

Actually, the airlines are actively moving towards putting such things directly into the GDS listings, so that they can be purchased from them.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 32):
Outside of a sale offer, neither Best Buy or Target charges me a higher price on TV's or toothbrushes just because I purchase them at the counter versus pay for it 14 days earlier. Sorry, but the airlines brought this on themselves.

I love the smell of entitlement in the morning.
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 32):
Yes, but auto dealers don't double the price of the car because you want to buy it two days before Christmas.
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 32):
Boo hoo!! Outside of a sale offer, neither Best Buy or Target charges me a higher price on TV's or toothbrushes just because I purchase them at the counter versus pay for it 14 days earlier. Sorry, but the airlines brought this on themselves.

Those commodities aren't perishable items as a seat on a flight is. Once it's gone, it's gone. If a customer doesn't by a toothbrush, it will still be there for the next customer.
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DTWLAX
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:53 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 13):
If you go to target and buy a toothbush for $2.99 you take it to the register and the price is $3.24 including taxes. Thats nowhere on the lable, and its just accepted in the U.S. that taxes are added to goods and services. Why is the airline industry being singled out in this issue? No other industry is forced to include the amount of taxes in any advsertised price. Its just not fair.

Does the price of a toothbrush change multiple times a day? Does it start at $2.99 and go all the way upto $12.99?
If the airline industry is willing to keep the ticket fare constant for all for a few days or even for a single day then we can talk about being fair.

Quoting nkops (Reply 20):
Rental cars are just as bad at this... you ever see the taxes and fees on rental cars? However, every airline website I have been on shows you the TOTAL price before you have to pay for it, you can always get out of it before confirming

Rental cars also show total price including taxes before you confirm your reservation.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 22):
WN, G4, and NK are all LCCs that don't like the fact that they can't show rock-bottom fares before tax anymore.

LCCs do not have to offer rock-bottom fares. WN is a Low Cost Carrier but not a Low Fare Carrier. That does not mean WN offers low fares as is evident in their high fares at certain times.
And NK is a Low Fare Carrier only if you are traveling with no checked or cabin baggage.

And lastly, for a price conscious traveler, it is always the final cost that he will pay attention to. If the total cost after including all taxes and fees is lower, then he will buy that; it does not matter to him if the taxes make up 5% or 50% of that final price because he still has to pay those taxes.

[Edited 2012-12-01 13:31:46]
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 35):
LCCs do not have to offer rock-bottom fares. WN is a Low Cost Carrier but not a Low Fare Carrier. It is the operating costs to WN that are low. That does not mean WN offers low fares as is evident in their high fares at certain times.

They have the highest labor costs in the industry. Nothing about them is Low Cost.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 32):
What needs to change is all booking engines like Kayak, Orbitz, etc. During the booking process, things like baggage and premium seating should be accounted for.

But again, how? Don't some say that other options may cost more.
 
hatbutton
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:19 pm



Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 35):
Does the price of a toothbrush change multiple times a day? Does it start at $2.99 and go all the way upto $12.99?
If the airline industry is willing to keep the ticket fare constant for all for a few days or even for a single day then we can talk about being fair.

Maybe not toothbrushes, but certainly things like fruit, vegetables, meat and seafood prices change often due to a little thing called supply and demand. If there were a lack of toothbrushes in the market, they certainly could be sold for $12.99. To say the price of a tooth

Even sports leagues like the NBA are charging more for marquee games. Your Miami Heat/OKC Thunder tickets will cost you much more than your Minnesota Timberwolves/Golden State Warriors tickets will cost. Concert tickets typically are more expensive the day of the show at the box office compared to purchasing them online ahead of time. Even marathons reward those who register earlier with lower entrance fees.

Airlines do offer fares that are below their costs during large fare sales so it's hard to say that the fluctuations in prices is always at the benefit of the airline.

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 35):
Rental cars also show total price including taxes before you confirm your reservation.

As did airlines. Before the taxes and fees were included in the base price, you would see the total price at the end of your booking path prior to purchasing...just like rental cars, hotels, and everyone other industry that does not show taxes until the end prior to purchasing.

[Edited 2012-12-01 13:23:44]
 
ouboy79
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 29):
I usually do ISP-BWI-CHS on Tues or Wed morning that leaves ISP at 0630ish and the flight I flew it last year for $130, but now it's $378. I guess gas prices and demand has gone up?

Yes those days are typically the best to fly on, but for WN they are also the best days to book on - which online fare sales tend to take place during the middle of the week or on Friday.

Quoting JHCRJ700 (Reply 31):
Is it still fair to call WN a LCC? In some cases their fares are higher than the legacy carriers.

When looking at BTS comparing the top 9 major airlines (by pax)...WN comes in 6th in CASM.

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 35):
LCCs do not have to offer rock-bottom fares. WN is a Low Cost Carrier but not a Low Fare Carrier. It is the operating costs to WN that are low.

This. Low Cost Carrier != Low Fare Carrier.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 36):
They have the highest labor costs in the industry. Nothing about them is Low Cost.

Highest labor costs perhaps, but this comment is totally off base. DL, UA, AA, US, and AS all have higher CASM's than WN right now. They are just under a cent higher than JetBlue.
 
Maverick623
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:18 am

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 35):
If the total cost after including all taxes and fees is lower, then he will buy that; it does not matter to him if the taxes make up 5% or 50% of that final price because he still has to pay those taxes.

Except it does matter; because then he would know that the taxes are outrageous and petition his representatives in Congress to change them.

Quoting hatbutton (Reply 37):
As did airlines.

  

There seems to be some faulty memories around here, as if the airlines were waiting until after you put in your credit card information to show you what the actual cost is... which has never been the case.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
FWAERJ
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:28 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 38):
Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 35):
LCCs do not have to offer rock-bottom fares. WN is a Low Cost Carrier but not a Low Fare Carrier. It is the operating costs to WN that are low.

This. Low Cost Carrier != Low Fare Carrier.

And it's not just WN. US Airways also likes calling themselves an LCC (in fact, their NYSE ticker symbol is LCC), but in many markets, their fares are anything but low-cost.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
spiritair97
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:50 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 38):

Thanks, good to onw about booking in the middle of e week.
 
spiritair97
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:50 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 38):

Thanks, good to know about booking in the middle of the week.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:31 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
It's the airlines' attempt to provide false advertising to the public on the true price of the ticket. I think the airline needs to be upfront with all of the fees and taxes. I think it's wrong for an airline to advertise $39 ticket when the actual price will be $99.80 with all the fees and taxes.

I agree. Full transparency. I suspect the new Consumer Protection Agency will win this one.

I also see a need for the federal government to define ULCC. Three or so months ago I searched the Code of Federal Regulations by name and abbreviation; ULCC does not populate. The closest I came was the term 'micro" in the procurement statutes. I think each carrier defines what they think a ULCC is and tweaks it to their needs.
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:51 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 43):
I agree. Full transparency. I suspect the new Consumer Protection Agency will win this one.

That's ok, as long as other businesses are required to do the same thing. Except for gasoline (and I have seen pumps that show the amount of tax in the price) I can't think of another industry that includes the tax in the advertised price, so, why pick on the airlines? Much as you'd like to think so, they aren't a public utility. Come to think of it, public utilities don't include fees or taxes in the advertised price, just in the total when you get your bill.
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Sancho99504
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:02 am

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 17):

Greyhound, AMTRAK, MegaBUS, Hilton, Marriott, Hampton Inn, Super 8, Radisson, etc. all do this....... and none of them have to show you fees and taxes prior to booking, so why should airlines?
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
Maverick623
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:26 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 43):
I also see a need for the federal government to define ULCC.

While we're at it, why don't we get the government to define what a "pale ale" is, or what exactly a "sale" is.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 43):
I think each carrier defines what they think a ULCC is and tweaks it to their needs.

Yep. It's called marketing... and freedom of speech. Also, the term is completely relative no matter how you slice it.

It's no different than a retail chain marketing their stores as "discount" or "budget".
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
strandedinbgm
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
If anything is going to get overturned, that one is it. Total 1st Amendment violation with zero precedent.

Once your done telling everyone that they are wrong, go back and read the first amendment. This is not a case of freedom of speech, religion, or press. It's about deceitful advertising practices.

A reasonable person can expect to pay .25 cents tax on a toothbrush that is marked $2.99. There are no hidden fees in the purchase of the toothbrush. No 9/11 fee, no local airport fees, no fee to have the cashier hand the bag to you. The blue one is the same price as the green one.

Buying an airline ticket is different. A reasonable individual can assume that they will pay sales tax on the ticket. What they cannot assume is that there are mandatory fees associated with the cost of the ticket.
It's 737s, 747s and 380s. Not 737's, 747's and 380's. Learn to use the apostrophe for crying out loud.
 
hatbutton
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:34 am

Quoting strandedinbgm (Reply 47):
Buying an airline ticket is different. A reasonable individual can assume that they will pay sales tax on the ticket. What they cannot assume is that there are mandatory fees associated with the cost of the ticket.

Why are you still going back to this? The topic at hand relates just to the taxes piece only, which pretty much every airline is opposed to including taxes in the base price. I agree that fees you can't get out of paying like these convenience fees that NK and G4 charge are ludicrous and in my opinion should be included in the base price. I however, do not think that we should be including taxes in the base price just like we do for every other product except gasoline. Which is what the DOT ruling was changing. If they are only concerned about these hidden fees then that's what they should have ruled on. Not taxes.
 
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RE: G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT

Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting strandedinbgm (Reply 47):
A reasonable person can expect to pay .25 cents tax on a toothbrush that is marked $2.99. There are no hidden fees in the purchase of the toothbrush. No 9/11 fee, no local airport fees, no fee to have the cashier hand the bag to you. The blue one is the same price as the green one.

Are we talking about taxes or fees? I was led to believe that this was all about TAXES. How many of the fees you're so adamant about are imposed by the federal, state or local governments or even the airport? And the airlines are required to collect those fees but all people can seem to do is blame the airlines for ALL of them.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen