xdlx
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:42 pm

Wondering if a 1100 dep LCY-LGA in a A319 could work with return at 2100 LGA-LCY
 
leftyboarder
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:44 pm

Who would operate it though? Would BA operate to LGA, where they would be an outcast?

[Edited 2012-12-03 14:45:32]
 
apodino
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:49 pm

It would have to be one of those modified A318's first of all and not an A319.

The other issue is the perimeter rule. Could you realistically see BA operate a SA only flight out of LGA when they have a somewhat big operation at JFK?
 
airliner371
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:52 pm

Take a little time and enjoy The View.
 
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TWA772LR
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:07 pm

I think it would be awesome to see that service. And it would be the most convenient for business travelers since LCY is practically in the heart of downtown London, same for LGA. But with the perimeter rule and TATL JV buddy at JFK as well as what is arguably the largest BA operation outside of LHR, I doubt it will happen soon. Can BA apply/pay some politician to lobby for an exception to the rule? Like how McCain lobbied for HP to fly from PHX to DCA?
And for my next miracle, I'm gonna turn water into funk!
 
INFINITI329
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:10 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 1):
Who would operate it though? Would BA operate to LGA, where they would be an outcast?

Hypothetically speaking if something like this would happen Im pretty sure it would be AA to take care of all the airport work , similar to WS and DL in LGA.
 
Freshside3
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:11 pm

It would have to be business class only, too, that goes without saying. This is a convenience flight, that can command premium bucks.....
 
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Polot
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 4):
Can BA apply/pay some politician to lobby for an exception to the rule? Like how McCain lobbied for HP to fly from PHX to DCA?

That won't happen. There are no exceptions to the perimeter rule except DEN (because there was already a DEN-LGA flight when the rule was implemented) and any exceptions would go to US airlines first. Why would a politician help BA versus a carrier with a hub in their own home state?
 
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TWA772LR
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 7):
Why would a politician help BA versus a carrier with a hub in their own home state?

I was just wondering if it could happen. It wouldn't surprise me to see if a politician had helped out any foreign company. I will stop there because my intent is not to hijack this thread to make it about politics.
And for my next miracle, I'm gonna turn water into funk!
 
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Polot
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 8):

I was just wondering if it could happen. It wouldn't surprise me to see if a politician had helped out any foreign company. I will stop there because my intent is not to hijack this thread to make it about politics.

Not to hijack the thread but there will be zero political support for it. The US airlines would be up in arms about it wanting to fly to LGA-LAX/SFO/SEA etc instead, and at the end of the day they have more political capital in Washington than BA.
 
xdlx
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:03 am

The only reason would be for Business travelers.....Perimeter or not, a link between two financial capitals.
London could close business in NY on the same day! Enhancing global markets.
As stated here previously a Special Purpose route....to go to ???
 
skipness1E
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:12 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 4):
as what is arguably the largest BA operation outside of LHR,

That's Gatwick, don't forget!
 
steex
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:26 am

Quoting xdlx (Reply 10):
London could close business in NY on the same day! Enhancing global markets.

Considering the overall distance of travel, being able to fly into LGA instead of the existing LCY-JFK service would have virtually zero impact on this.

Also, for what it's worth, it's PANYNJ that would need to be convinced to allow beyond-perimeter exemptions, not the feds down in Washington.
 
ytz
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:40 am

LCY-USA would work a lot better with the CSeries (to allow for direct flights), with all-business service (only because I don't think any narrowbody can do direct from LCY with a full load of pax) and with pre-clearance at LCY. And with perimerter exemptions for LGA and DCA. Without an aircraft that can do direct to the US and without pre-clearance, the US-LCY market will always be niche and restricted to JFK via SNN.

One would think that policians and authorities in the US would support that kind of setup given the depth of the US-UK relationship.

As for perimeter rule airports like LGA and DCA, I could see it. LCY ops are sort of a separate business for BA. And with the JV, AA would probably benefit for doing nothing more than lobbying and getting the paperwork done. Imagine what a tremendous service LCY-LGA and LCY-DCA would be.

Let's see what Odyssey can cook up.
 
airliner371
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:09 am

Some points people just aren't getting...

*LGA has NO perimeter exceptions other then DEN because it is grandfathered in
*PANYNJ decides wether to allow exceptions etc....
*PANYNJ and DOT (when talking DCA) will give exceptions to US cities before international destinations, the latest example, not accepting AC's recent out of perimeter DCA request

All in all, LGA-LCY is not going to happen, at least in our lifetime.
Take a little time and enjoy The View.
 
ytz
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 14):
Some points people just aren't getting...

*LGA has NO perimeter exceptions other then DEN because it is grandfathered in
*PANYNJ decides wether to allow exceptions etc....
*PANYNJ and DOT (when talking DCA) will give exceptions to US cities before international destinations, the latest example, not accepting AC's recent out of perimeter DCA request

All in all, LGA-LCY is not going to happen, at least in our lifetime.

Nobody is debating who gives what authorities. I think the impact of those restrictions is more germane to the discussion at hand than who imposes them.
 
YYZYYT
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 7):
That won't happen. There are no exceptions to the perimeter rule except DEN (because there was already a DEN-LGA flight when the rule was implemented) and any exceptions would go to US airlines first. Why would a politician help BA versus a carrier with a hub in their own home state?

Could someone in the know explain the perimetre rule for an interested amatuer?

Thanks,
 
Mir
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting xdlx (Thread starter):
Wondering if a 1100 dep LCY-LGA in a A319 could work with return at 2100 LGA-LCY

The times wouldn't work. Too late of a departure from both airports.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 16):
Could someone in the know explain the perimetre rule for an interested amatuer?

No flights can serve LGA that are over 1500 miles (not nautical miles) in direct length (i.e. not accounting for the zig-zags are common to any routing over airways). The exception is flights on Saturday, which can be any length.

LGA also does not have significant customs facilities, so any international flight would have to be to (or via) a destination that has pre-clearance.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
connies4ever
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Could LGA - LCY Work?

Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:10 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
LCY-USA would work a lot better with the CSeries (to allow for direct flights), with all-business service (only because I don't think any narrowbody can do direct from LCY with a full load of pax) and with pre-clearance at LCY. And with perimerter exemptions for LGA and DCA. Without an aircraft that can do direct to the US and without pre-clearance, the US-LCY market will always be niche and restricted to JFK via SNN.

BBD have stated that the CS100 will be certified out of the box for n/s LCY-JFK, so it's not a lack of capability. As well, the concept for the all-J CS100 is for 44 seats, as opposed to the A318's 32 (although likely more generous size-wise). So potential revenue generation would be bigger. So I don't see either a technical or business case reason that this could not be done.

I don't see this happening for reasons amply stated above, plus since JFK would be n/s without clearing US customs at SNN, this will negate some of the advantages of arriving at JFK "domestic".

But a case might be made for LCY-DXB/JED/DOH all J, and perhaps some others. Maybe SVO/VKO. Not sure if CS100's capability could be extended to IAD/DCA and with DCA you run into the same issues as LGA.

Random thought: any potential for longer flights into HND ? There should not be a night ban at HND for CS100 due to the very quiet GTF engines.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
brilondon
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 6):

It would have to be business class only, too, that goes without saying. This is a convenience flight, that can command premium bucks.....

The business class is the only class on the A318's that BA flies out of LCY to JFK. Would the runways at LGA be long enough for a full fuel load?

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 4):
as what is arguably the largest BA operation outside of LHR,

That's Gatwick, don't forget!

   and a number of other airports in the UK.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
steex
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
No flights can serve LGA that are over 1500 miles (not nautical miles) in direct length (i.e. not accounting for the zig-zags are common to any routing over airways). The exception is flights on Saturday, which can be any length.

LGA also does not have significant customs facilities, so any international flight would have to be to (or via) a destination that has pre-clearance.

To expand on that point, flights between LGA and DEN are also explicitly allowed for all carriers since DEN service already existed when the perimeter was instituted. Furthermore, beyond just the perimeter being lifted on Saturdays, LGA isn't even slot controlled on Saturdays - carriers are free to operate flights at any schedule they desire.
 
jfk777
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:08 pm

The LGA and LCY thing has been talked about lots here. There are some big differences, LGA is close to JFK but LCY is right next to Canary Wharf and on the other side of London from Heathrow. For an equivalent of LCY to exist in NYC it would have to be near the Statue of Liberty in the middle of the Hudson near Wall ST at the buttom of Manhattan. LCY to JFK is not more then 15 minutes longer then if the A318 went to LGA. IS 15 minutes worth LGA ? I will talke JFK.
 
xdlx
Topic Author
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):

Yep until the gate to Manhattan ride is 1h45m
 
Viscount724
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 18):
I don't see this happening for reasons amply stated above, plus since JFK would be n/s without clearing US customs at SNN, this will negate some of the advantages of arriving at JFK "domestic".

As far as I know, LGA does not have customs/immigration facilities for airline flights. I believe their inspection facilities are only usable by private and corporate aircraft.
 
Mir
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:29 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 18):
I don't see this happening for reasons amply stated above, plus since JFK would be n/s without clearing US customs at SNN, this will negate some of the advantages of arriving at JFK "domestic".

A dedicated business class line would make clearing customs at JFK pretty quick. And factor in the shorter flight time without the fuel stop and you've got yourself an overall much more attractive proposition.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
xdlx
Topic Author
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):

From the standpoint of marketing .... This could be a "global Entry" flight only thus negating the need of FIS on arrival
 
jfk777
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 22):
Yep until the gate to Manhattan ride is 1h45m

BA can license the Virgin "Limo Bike" and cycle every one through traffic to Manhattan.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
As far as I know, LGA does not have customs/immigration facilities for airline flights. I believe their inspection facilities are only usable by private and corporate aircraft.

An administrative obstacle that could be overcome. Also see Mirès comment below. I think the thrust behind this thread is: a) is it technically doable, and b) can you make a business case for it. I think the answer to both is Yes.

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
A dedicated business class line would make clearing customs at JFK pretty quick. And factor in the shorter flight time without the fuel stop and you've got yourself an overall much more attractive proposition.

Very good point.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
ytz
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:11 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 18):
BBD have stated that the CS100 will be certified out of the box for n/s LCY-JFK, so it's not a lack of capability. As well, the concept for the all-J CS100 is for 44 seats, as opposed to the A318's 32 (although likely more generous size-wise). So potential revenue generation would be bigger. So I don't see either a technical or business case reason that this could not be done.

I never said the CSeries couldn't do it. My point was that the CSeries is probably the only aircraft that fly this mission properly (non-stop).

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 18):
I don't see this happening for reasons amply stated above, plus since JFK would be n/s without clearing US customs at SNN, this will negate some of the advantages of arriving at JFK "domestic".

That was my point earlier. There needs to be preclearance at LCY and an accomodation on perimeter rules to allow LCY-DCA and LCY-LGA

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):
IS 15 minutes worth LGA ?

For the type of people who pay for and fly these business shuttles? Yes.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 22):
Yep until the gate to Manhattan ride is 1h45m

  

Quoting xdlx (Reply 25):
From the standpoint of marketing .... This could be a "global Entry" flight only thus negating the need of FIS on arrival

Or they could just negotiate preclearance with the Brits. Given the amount of American TATL travellers, I am surprised that hub airports in Europe don't all have terminals dedicated to US travel with preclearance CBP staff.
 
connies4ever
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 28):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 18):
I don't see this happening for reasons amply stated above, plus since JFK would be n/s without clearing US customs at SNN, this will negate some of the advantages of arriving at JFK "domestic".

That was my point earlier. There needs to be preclearance at LCY and an accomodation on perimeter rules to allow LCY-DCA and LCY-LGA

Thatès a practical solution process-wise. I wonder if there would be enough traffic to justify the cost.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
ytz
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 29):
I wonder if there would be enough traffic to justify the cost.

Oh yes. I envision that an airline could actually have quite a solid business out of LCY serving BOS, DCA, LGA/JFK/EWR (Personally, I'd treat EWR and JFK/LGA as separate markets of sorts), PHL and maybe even MDW (not quite sure how limited the CS100 is on fuel and by LCY's runway length). I could see at least 200 pax a day. And probably closer to 400 per day with just those routes. All premium pax. Surely, the airline can afford to help the airport pay for preclearance for that many pax. It wouldn't take a huge team. Maybe 10 officers or so? Keep in mind, that many of these regular business pax probably have Global Entry. That should reduce workload quite a bit.

Given the sheer amount of government and diplomatic between London and Washington alone, I'm surprised that politicians in both countries haven't made an LCY-DCA link happen.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:14 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 19):
The business class is the only class on the A318's that BA flies out of LCY to JFK. Would the runways at LGA be long enough for a full fuel load?

Should be able to the minimum take off distance of an A318 at MTOW is 5,997 ft. Both runways are about 7,000 ft. And seeing how this A318's ZFW would be alot less because of less pax it should be able to do it no prob.
 
starrymarkb
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:20 pm

Is there room for handling more large (A318+) size aircraft at City?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:02 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 28):
Quoting xdlx (Reply 25):
From the standpoint of marketing .... This could be a "global Entry" flight only thus negating the need of FIS on arrival

Or they could just negotiate preclearance with the Brits. Given the amount of American TATL travellers, I am surprised that hub airports in Europe don't all have terminals dedicated to US travel with preclearance CBP staff.

Why would European airports want to make the huge investments that would be needed to handle pre-clearance? It works much better for them with the current procedures.
 
ytz
Posts: 3048
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:22 am

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 32):

Is there room for handling more large (A318+) size aircraft at City?

They have an airport development plan in place.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
Why would European airports want to make the huge investments that would be needed to handle pre-clearance?

Not all airports. Just a few. Key hubs. It allows them to cater to far more destinations in the USA. No need to limit flights to an airport-of-entry. Surely, if DUB and SNN are justified then LHR, CDG, FRA, FCO, BRU, all have solid cases.

In any event, topic at hand. I think given the high yielding pax at LCY, I think there's a business case to be made for preclearance.
 
steex
Posts: 1356
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:45 am

RE: Could LGA - LCY Work?

Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:52 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 34):
Not all airports. Just a few. Key hubs. It allows them to cater to far more destinations in the USA. No need to limit flights to an airport-of-entry. Surely, if DUB and SNN are justified then LHR, CDG, FRA, FCO, BRU, all have solid cases.

But realistically, there are all of two airports in the USA that may be legitimate destinations from Europe and are not capable of handling an inbound international arrival - and those two airports, LGA and DCA, both have perimeters that prohibit such flights with no indication that there is political will to change that.

Also, keep in mind that DUB and SNN arguably work well BECAUSE they are not major hubs in the way of those other airports. Airports like LHR, CDG, and FRA achieve greater efficiency for their home carriers by not having any infrastructure specifically dedicated to USA departures (which must be segregated from all other gates) and largely allowing sterile international transfer without requiring any customs clearance for transit passengers.

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