enginebird
Topic Author
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 5:22 am

Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:38 pm

The Aviation Herald, a site many of us love and frequently link to on airliners.net, is under legal threat from an unnamed airline, most likely an Ireland-based low cost carrier:
The Aviation Herald

The threat seems to be related to the recent refusal of the Aviation Herald to remove a report of a B-738 descending below minimum height, citing a report by the official authorities of the country in question:
discussion of the incident on airliners.net

Please give your support to the Aviation Herald.
 
phishphan70
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:23 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:01 pm

I guess we should all watch the comments on this thread as well if a certain un-named airline is going off on a legal binge. I, and I assume most of those that will read this, whole-heartedly support the objective, accurate, and thorough job done by the Av Herald.
Good luck squashing this baseless legal action.
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:13 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:08 pm

As a contributor to the other site also, please can I also ask that the airline not be named here.

The AvHerald, along with airliners.net, are my two most visited websites.

I have been a staunch defender of theis airline's business model, their success and safety record, as well as giving them the benefit of the doubt when ill-informed moaners complain about their practices. I have defended them on numerous aviation sites in relation to some incidents when others were too quick to judge.

However, if they are trying to stifle free speech and stop the ordinary public from commenting about them, I will very quickly become an enemy of this company.

Safety culture only works in an arena of openness and mutual communication. We can't let idiot posters destroy this.
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
nclmedic
Posts: 169
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 2):
As a contributor to the other site also, please can I also ask that the airline not be named here.

Completely second you on this one - probably best not to allow any row to spill over in this direction!

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 2):
Safety culture only works in an arena of openness and mutual communication. We can't let idiot posters destroy this.

And again, I couldn't agree more. If wanted to live in a society that buried safety concerns in the ground, and penalised those who raised them, I'd move to North Korea.
 
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Plainplane
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:32 pm

Regardless of all the stuff always going on with them I always held a neutral opinion in the whole for/against the "you know what airline" arguments. Now this, officially makes me hates the "you know what" airline.
 
capri
Posts: 499
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 1:32 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:07 pm

As far I am concerned, I boycotted that airline since 2007. the worst people to deal with on customer level issues, they overcharge for anything and everything.
 
something
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:13 pm

If even the slightest suspicion arises that a low cost carrier saves on maintenance/safety, their business could be ruined over night. Both, Ryanair and EasyJet have become established enough that a crash would ruin neither company but the backlash this would have on their businesses would be much greater than what LH or BA would experience in the exact same situation.

It is all too understandable that Ryanair therefore, has a greater than average interest in having any negative press concerning their safety removed.

The question is now how legitimate Ryanair's request to have the particular news item on the avherald.com removed. If the account given on the website is factually inaccurate or even erroneous, Ryanair may prosecute the website for libel. If, however, the BFU report and the avherald's representation of said is correct, Ryanair has no legal recourse against the website.
BFU reports in Germany are public domain and the BFU itself is an objective, state-owned investigation bureau. It seems unlikely that their report is partial or even inaccurate. The avherald may use information provided by the BFU, but has to distinguish between what the BFU states, and what their own interpretation of this data is.

It would be the discretion of a judge whether the avherald.com gave a factual account based on the BFU findings, or if its account contained elements of personal interpretation (any assessment, appraisal, opinions etc.) that could skew public perception of the incident at hand.

In either way, Ryanair is doing something unbelievably risky here. ''The cover up is always worse than the crime''. It almost doesn't matter what the actual situation was. If some tabloid like the German ''Bild'' is printing a headline that ''Ryanair close to crash - And now they're hiding it'', their reputation is ruined. Why can't they just put a press release on their website stating what exactly happened (and why) and that every report to the contrary are false?

Even if their strategy proves successful, the stakes for what they can possibly gain here seem disproportionally high. The average flyer doesn't care much about a ''near miss'', especially not in the long run. A company that goes to great lengths to make things disappear though, is an impression that is bound to last.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:18 pm

Quoting enginebird (Thread starter):
The threat seems to be related to the recent refusal of the Aviation Herald to remove a report of a B-738 descending below minimum height

When I read the excerpt from the legal demand, it said it was comments to the report, not the report itself that was questionable. If the comments were libelous, then of course they should be removed. If not, then the AvHerald has every right to let the comments stand.
International Homo of Mystery
 
BlueBus
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:14 am

I don't get it... why not name the airline? Let people make their own overall judgements of the carrier.
 
mandala499
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:38 am

Quoting phishphan70 (Reply 1):
I, and I assume most of those that will read this, whole-heartedly support the objective, accurate, and thorough job done by the Av Herald.
Good luck squashing this baseless legal action.

Accurate is subjective. The attitude of the primary author there, is in some instances, despicably 'against criticism', even when providing corrections to errors (based on AvHerald's policy of only using 'official data', which in some countries, official data is often erroneous and regulatory approved 3rd party data is more accurate... unfortunately, AvHerald would buy none of that... well, not after deletion of a lot of comments). However, we understand that nothing is perfect. I do not find it the most accurate, but I find it as the one-stop place to look for accident/incident information.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 2):
I have been a staunch defender of theis airline's business model, their success and safety record, as well as giving them the benefit of the doubt when ill-informed moaners complain about their practices. I have defended them on numerous aviation sites in relation to some incidents when others were too quick to judge.

Ryanair does have it's army of haters... at least we can look beyond the hate and see the reality.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
The question is now how legitimate Ryanair's request to have the particular news item on the avherald.com removed.

Errr... it is the comments by the users who prompted Ryanair to threaten legal action against AvHerald unless those comments are removed... they are not requesting the news article to be removed.

I personally support Ryanair's request to ask for AvHerald to remove those 'unwarranted comments', sites like AvHerald, and other aviation sites, do not need to foster those 'unwarranted comments', they belong in the tabloids or A.net's rival I nicknamed "aviation fight club" (where the forum is just... supposedly filled with professionals but the stuff written there are just VICIOUS and full of hate)... Ryanair might actually be doing AvHerald a favour... HOWEVER, if Ryanair then continues to ask for the incident article to be removed, or begin to regularly harass AvHerald to ask for objective items to be removed, then, I guess we'd all join the army of O'Leary haters...    Best of luck to Simon!

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
kaitak
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:37 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 9):
I personally support Ryanair's request to ask for AvHerald to remove those 'unwarranted comments', sites like AvHerald, and other aviation sites, do not need to foster those 'unwarranted comments', they belong in the tabloids or A.net's rival I nicknamed "aviation fight club" (where the forum is just... supposedly filled with professionals but the stuff written there are just VICIOUS and full of hate)... Ryanair might actually be doing AvHerald a favour...

I agree; the problem with the AH is that although it's an excellent resource, there's no registration necessary and anyone can use any name to post anything. Hopefully they'll change that now and in that sense, FR is certainly doing AH a favour. It's a very useful sight and I'd hate to see it go.
 
BrouAviation
Posts: 280
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:57 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 9):
Ryanair does have it's army of haters... at least we can look beyond the hate and see the reality.

Oh no, you said it out loud! MOL is going to kill us all.

Seriously, take a break and relax people. This airline deserves the publicity it gets. And what happened to the "there's no such thing as bad publicity?" mantra MOL has been using for years?
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
PHX787
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:03 am

Does Simon have an account on here?

Quoting capri (Reply 5):
As far I am concerned, I boycotted that airline since 2007. the worst people to deal with on customer level issues, they overcharge for anything and everything.

Another thread bashing this airline, but honestly i don't know why they have customers still after all the crap they pull.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
enginebird
Topic Author
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 5:22 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:11 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):

When I read the excerpt from the legal demand, it said it was comments to the report, not the report itself that was questionable.

The Aviation Herald is probably unable to patrol all comments to each of its articles. Just as we have seen many less-than-objective comments on certain airlines, aircraft manufactureres etc. on airliners.net...

The legal action threatened seems to be at least partly motivated by the airline's unsuccessful demand to have the following report removed, although it is based on the official report of the state-owned authorities:
report about a plane descending below minimum height
 
AR385
Posts: 6735
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:05 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Does Simon have an account on here?

Yes he does. And he probably monitors many of the forums.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:44 pm

As as Paralegal/Legal Assistant for over 30 years, I am aware of corporate confidentiality and have had to sign numerous agreements to hold confidential internal documents and their contents of a client corporation and of the attorney-client privilege as well as information as to my employing firm under the pain of civil and criminal liability, loss of employment and ruin of my reputation even if a 'whistle blower'. Whoever released this internal information of Ryanair probably violated their work contract and any confidentiality agreements they have with them and will be fired and face penalties.

The second issue here is libel and slander vs. the news media. I am not sure which country AvHerald is based under, indeed if incorporated in the UK or most EU countries, unlike the USA where there is strong press protections from libel and slander, it may be possible for Ryanair to sue AvHerald for libel/slander with the publication of such internal materials.

Most likely AvHerald will have to go to a subscription model to pay for moderation to keep out materials that may get it into legal trouble. Sadly too, it will damage it's ability to offer open and honest disclosures of potentially dangerous incidents involving the airline industry.
 
xdlx
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:26 pm

Ryanair is doing it to themselves..... the public light is on them....!
 
steffenbn
Posts: 169
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:53 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 2):
As a contributor to the other site also, please can I also ask that the airline not be named here.

What happend to this guys request?
A330, A319, 737,738,752,763,763ER,764ER,777-200LR
 
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Sepultallica
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:52 pm

Well judging by Update 3 on the AV Herald, O'Leary and his ambulance-chaser goons have given Simon until 17h30 UTC to come grovelling and apologizing. For what its worth, don't let them get to you Simon!

But seriously, why is O'Leary all butthurt now? He's renowned for his patronizing attitude towards Ryanair passengers and now that others take cheap shots at him, he gets all pissed?

Oh and some of those zingers against Ryanair were actually rather lulzy.
Chinokanganwa idemo; Chitsiga hachikanganwe. ✈
 
spoon84
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:25 pm

Everyone knows which airline we are talking about, I don't understand why we should not talk about them, anyway i'm not going to write it here.
I support 100% Avherald, it's not really possible that a company like this, is going to check what people (correct or not) is writting about them, so are they checking all the forum in the world???

I think that they got a lot of good marketing because people is talking with them, but act like that to a website that was always fair on analyze the incidents that involved them, I think it's not very fair, as we say, they should close an eye.

I remember another report about them about the short of fuel in Spain some months ago and as far as I remember, Simon explained so well, that after a while everyone started to comment in a constructive way and not only negative comments, they should remember this wonderful work done by Avherald.

http://avherald.com/h?article=454af355&opt=0
 
AR385
Posts: 6735
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 15):
I am not sure which country AvHerald is based under, indeed if incorporated in the UK or most EU countries, unlike the USA where there is strong press protections from libel and slander,

I believe it´s based out of Austria.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting SepulTALLICA (Reply 18):
But seriously, why is O'Leary all butthurt now?

Because, as was mentioned way up thread, O'Leary knows (like all LCC's) that he's more exposed to even the hint of safety shenanigans than almost any other Western airline on earth. Factually inaccurate statements re: Ryanair safety will go straight to his bottom line.

Quoting spoon84 (Reply 19):
it's not really possible that a company like this, is going to check what people (correct or not) is writting about them, so are they checking all the forum in the world???

Most large public-facing companies use automated systems to troll the web for any mention of their name (usually along with other keywords). "They" aren't checking all the forums in the world, but they're using technology to crawl pretty much the entire internet and then "they" look at the highlights.

Tom.
 
kl911
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting capri (Reply 5):
As far I am concerned, I boycotted that airline since 2007. the worst people to deal with on customer level issues, they overcharge for anything and everything.

So what? let them overcharge, as long as the total fare is still lower then anyone else I fly with them. And the only customer service you need and can expect for 5 euro tickets is a friendly crew and extensive bob menu on board.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 16):
Ryanair is doing it to themselves..... the public light is on them....!

Public? Normal pax are not reading the AH website..  
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 21):
Because, as was mentioned way up thread, O'Leary knows (like all LCC's) that he's more exposed to even the hint of safety shenanigans than almost any other Western airline on earth.

It is therefor actually one of the safest airlines in the world.
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:13 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 22):
Public? Normal pax are not reading the AH website..

No but 100,000s visit the site every month and tell family, friends, colleagues etc etc- it spreads. Especially gossip like this.

FR relies on publicity for cheap marketing. Flashy and brash statements capture the imagination and it's talked about. In this instance, the talk will be quite negative.
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
kl911
Posts: 3979
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:33 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 23):
No but 100,000s visit the site every month and tell family, friends, colleagues etc etc- it spreads. Especially gossip like this.

FR relies on publicity for cheap marketing. Flashy and brash statements capture the imagination and it's talked about. In this instance, the talk will be quite negative.

True, I visit the site a lot, and the FR bashing is unbelievable there. It is a website about safety, not customer service, but all bashers there claim to know all kind of safety faults at FR. Which of course are total nonsense.

If it was my company I would do the same to and probably I would even sue those people telling lies and damaging the company.
 
eicvd
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
but honestly i don't know why they have customers still after all the crap they pull.


Well I have never had a bad flight with them, I guess many millions of people have had the same treatment as me. Could be a reason why they have customers still?      
COYBIB
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting eicvd (Reply 25):
Well I have never had a bad flight with them, I guess many millions of people have had the same treatment as me. Could be a reason why they have customers still?

Well I guess if they give good customer service for the product they give, I guess that explains it.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
BrouAviation
Posts: 280
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting steffenbn (Reply 17):
What happend to this guys request?

Something called freedom of speech?

Quoting KL911 (Reply 24):
but all bashers there claim to know all kind of safety faults at Ryanair. Which of course are total nonsense.

Well, of course you should know, because as a passenger who flies them regularly and seems to defend them at all costs no matter how ridiculous you look, you are the first person we should ask about Ryanair's safety faults. I am not saying Ryanair does have problems (or doesn't) with regards to flight safety, but really, who are you to judge?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26):

Well I guess if they give good customer service for the product they give, I guess that explains it.

They don't. But that's an entirely other discussion.

I hope AH stands strong and doesn't let those stubborn ****s mess with them.
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
mandala499
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:14 pm

Oh, update 3 is nice... shows that AvHerald gets a taste of it's own medicine... So, I get email, discuss it in public, and he throws a fit (it wasn't marked private and confidential). So, he gets an email from Ryanair, and he throws it out in the open, and complain about Ryanair's reaction.   

I guess what comes around goes around again in different ways. (I wonder if someone in Austria still thinks a website not giving access to no-referrer requests as illegal by law universally... *yawn*)
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
AR385
Posts: 6735
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:18 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 28):
shows that AvHerald gets a taste of it's own medicine
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 28):
I guess what comes around goes around again in different ways. (I wonder if someone in Austria still thinks a website not giving access to no-referrer requests as illegal by law universally

Oh come on Mandala499, be nice now.  
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 28):

I am greatly shocked to read such a statement from such a well respected user that's been around here for so long and normally offers quality contributions to the forum.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 24):
If it was my company I would do the same to and probably I would even sue those people telling lies and damaging the company.

The damage is minimal, if at all. And if there were reasons to tell stuff about your company then we jolly well shall be allowed to do so.


Av Herald really stands the moral ground in this issue. Yes some of their poster are annoying but it cannot be responsibility of the site to not post confidential material.

The distorted views of right or wrong of some users is alarming and the crooks of FR have sunk to a new low. Will be interesting to see how the story develops on monday when the attorneys of both sides start working again.
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:18 am

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 30):
Quoting KL911 (Reply 24):
If it was my company I would do the same to and probably I would even sue those people telling lies and damaging the company.

The damage is minimal, if at all. And if there were reasons to tell stuff about your company then we jolly well shall be allowed to do so.

If this was my company, I would do everything possible to change company policy so that such issues never happen again. This company is acting like spoiled brats after they hear negative things about them.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:44 am

I don't have anything against the airline under discussion, but online discussion forums are under freedom of speech. While the airline should have a right to have certain posts removed, where is the line drawn? It quickly becomes a slippery slope. Do we want all of our A vs. B discussions banned?

I tend to be pro the airline in question. But legitimate discussion must be allowed.

Quoting Plainplane (Reply 4):

Regardless of all the stuff always going on with them I always held a neutral opinion in the whole for/against the "you know what airline" arguments. Now this, officially makes me hates the "you know what" airline.

I don't hate... but I'm always going to side with freedom of speech. Oh, I'll call out a.net posts I find wrong, but that is my freedom of speech. (You won't find me demanding non-rude posts be removed.)

Quoting something (Reply 6):
It is all too understandable that Ryanair therefore, has a greater than average interest in having any negative press concerning their safety removed.

The question is now how legitimate Ryanair's request to have the particular news item on the avherald.com removed.

It is also a question of freedom of press and freedom of speech.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
If the comments were libelous, then of course they should be removed.

Where is the line drawn? I've seen enough comments here on a.net that would shut down the site. But posters tend to retort said comments. Sometimes the moderators must step in... but where is the line drawn on discussion?

There needs to be a means for legitimate 'whistleblowing' to occur. For every bit of real whistleblowing, there will be a number of posts that are disgruntled noise. That has to just be accepted.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 23):
FR relies on publicity for cheap marketing. Flashy and brash statements capture the imagination and it's talked about. In this instance, the talk will be quite negative.

Agreed. But they do not control the media. There needs to be some latitude for freedom of the press.

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 30):
And if there were reasons to tell stuff about your company then we jolly well shall be allowed to do so.

Exactly. No company is perfect. This isn't North Korea where no criticism of the leadership is allowed.


Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
AeroWesty
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Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:14 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 32):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
If the comments were libelous, then of course they should be removed.

Where is the line drawn? I've seen enough comments here on a.net that would shut down the site. But posters tend to retort said comments. Sometimes the moderators must step in... but where is the line drawn on discussion?

I don't know how you went from libelous comments to discussion using a quote from my post. Of course discussion should be protected free speech. Libelous comments are simply that, libelous. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
International Homo of Mystery
 
enginebird
Topic Author
Posts: 118
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:49 am

All of FR's emails to the Aviation Herald can now be read in full there.
So we can all form our own opinion of the story...
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:15 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 29):
Oh come on Mandala499, be nice now.

Well, I have to side with Ryanair on this one...
It's not about Ryanair trying to impose censorship... it's only about asking to remove some defamatory comments.
And not surprisingly, it got twisted... and the way it got twisted is somehow, very very familiar...   

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 30):
I am greatly shocked to read such a statement from such a well respected user that's been around here for so long and normally offers quality contributions to the forum.

Feel free to read http://www.indoflyer.net/forum/fb.asp?m=567804 and form your own conclusion.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
enginebird
Topic Author
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 5:22 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:34 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 35):
It's not about Ryanair trying to impose censorship... it's only about asking to remove some defamatory comments.

Well, FR only demanded the removal of comments for the first time, right after the Aviation Herald had refused to remove a fact-based story about an FR plane descending below minimum height... Anybody smelling fish?

Re censorship: There is a fine and fuzzy line between (attempted) censorship and the demand of deletion of comments unilaterally defined as "defamatory".
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:35 am

I wonder how stupid FR can be. The comments on AvHerald have much more content than the average news article about near crashes, yet FR choses to sue AvHerald. Or is FR going to sue any news outlet which contain comments which it doesn't like? I fos, it will have a lot to do the coming months.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 23):
FR relies on publicity for cheap marketing. Flashy and brash statements capture the imagination and it's talked about. In this instance, the talk will be quite negative.

However, what FR is currently doing doesn't help FRs image either. The media will make this a David vs Goliath story if it gets picked up by the news outlets, and this is usually not good for the Goliath in question. This doesn't mean that FR should accept everything, but is this worth the fight?
 
enginebird
Topic Author
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 5:22 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:16 am

Quoting enginebird (Reply 36):
However, what FR is currently doing doesn't help FRs image either. The media will make this a David vs Goliath story if it gets picked up by the news outlets, and this is usually not good for the Goliath in question

Exactly. The story is now on spiegel.de, and other news outlets have started to pick it up as well:
spiegel.de (sorry, in German only)

The headlines are a lot less factual than on the AvH, claiming a near crash, and the comments under the spiegel.de report are much worse and potentially "defamatory" than the AvH-comments FR wanted removed. What is FR going to do now, sue all of the news outlets quoting the report by the BFU (Germany's official authority for the investigation of aviation "accidents")?

Keep the popcorn handy...
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:23 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 35):
It's not about Ryanair trying to impose censorship... it's only about asking to remove some defamatory comments.

To me (and many others) they ARE trying to impose censorship. Also, by definition defamation is when someone actively publishes allegations that he or she knows are not true with the goal of harming someone else. I regard many of the comments made at the AvHerald as stupid but to ask the site to impose censorship because of that is ... trying to impose censorship and it smells very fishy.


Quoting mandala499 (Reply 35):
Feel free to read http://www.indoflyer.net/forum/fb.asp?m=567804 and form your own conclusion.

All I can read and understand is one harshly worded post by Simon where he complains about some script that forum uses. I can understand if you criticize the foul language but I don't really see the connection to this case.

It is okay to criticize, but trying to silence critical voices is simply not, regardless if the person in question is a nice fellow or is throwing a stink from time to time.

And although I don't like to say it: FR has survived so many "shitstorms", they will survive this one unharmed just as they did in the past  

EDIT:
Ok, so he threw a larger stink. Still, personal antipathy is not warrented in the current case and after all he didn't threaten to sue the forum.

[Edited 2012-12-09 04:33:20]
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:57 pm

This is another example of a growing conflict of corporations and governments vs. people's need and right to know.

Corporations and governments are becoming more aggressive in going after the news and other media, including using civil lawsuits and criminal prosecutions to prevent the disclosure of information that can be embarrassing or hurt financial deals, disclosure how much money executives make, environmental damage, dangers to the public. Over the last 2 years or so, we have seen 'wikileaks' pretty much put out of business for their uncensored disclosures that disclosed corporate and governmental secrets. Corporate owned media also is under financial pressures to not hurt the corpoartions that provide their revenues. Of course, some 'whistleblowing' can include information that may be out of context, incorrect, protected by attorney-client privilege, disclose proprietary information that can be used by competitors.

I am quite sure MOL didn't want this internal corporate information on this incident disclosed not only to protect his business, but also to make sure that the governmental airline safety agency involved does their job. It would be better for all to have those agencies reach their conclusions that would then be publicly released in their full context including possible errors of ATC, mechanical/electronic errors or others and the possibility that his pilots that were involved were not in the wrong.

Considering the huge number of flights of Ryanair, they are bound to have incidents. So far they have had an excellent safety record, far better than a number of large airlines around the world. There is the intense and polarizing opinions of many here at airliners.net, at AvHerald, uncensored social media sites and elsewhere of MOL and Ryanair as to their business practices that may encourage looking for any way to bash them and some to defend ultra cheap fares to not their individual benefits, and the general economic benefit allowing people to afford to travel.
 
scarebus03
Posts: 231
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:35 pm

I know that the Airline in question has been targeting other websites in relation to what is posted by 'anonymous' users so there seems to be a campaign by the Airline internet wide particularly with respect to forums.
It appears to me that the Airline in question has a problem with its own policy with regards to employees posting on the internet. I agree with most of the above as said Airline is rising to new heights of paranoia.

Remember none of us are anonymous so be careful what you post.

Brgds
No faults found......................
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 348
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:08 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 37):
However, what FR is currently doing doesn't help FRs image either. The media will make this a David vs Goliath story if it gets picked up by the news outlets, and this is usually not good for the Goliath in question. This doesn't mean that FR should accept everything, but is this worth the fight?
Quoting enginebird (Reply 38):
Exactly.

My point exactly. This is negative press for them - it actually draws more attention to the incident that they are trying to keep a little bit more quiet.

As usual, the media will blow it way out of reality. An incident becomes a chaotic fight for survival - the German paper is already a fine example. This is not what FR needs. As mentioned above numerous times - they rely on a very good public safety record.
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
ytz
Posts: 3031
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:21 pm

I sincerely hope this story gets picked up by the mainstream media.

Nothing against FR. I just don't like corporations trying to stifle freedom of speech.
 
kl911
Posts: 3979
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 43):
I sincerely hope this story gets picked up by the mainstream media.

Nothing against FR. I just don't like corporations trying to stifle freedom of speech.

It has nothing to with freedom of speech. On AvH are a few people who are deliberately telling lies and damaging FR doing so. This has been going on for quite a while. Since indeed a lot of people are reading that website it is the same as showing an add on TV damaging your competitor by telling lies about its safety.

Thinking about it, there are a few diehard FR haters here too, might be the same persons, who knows. Most of those have not even flown FR in the last 10 years but claim to know it all. I fly them about 30 to 40 times a year so I think my experience is more believable then that nonsense quoted at that website.
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:13 am

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:34 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 44):
It has nothing to with freedom of speech. On AvH are a few people who are deliberately telling lies and damaging FR doing so. This has been going on for quite a while. Since indeed a lot of people are reading that website it is the same as showing an add on TV damaging your competitor by telling lies about its safety.

Thinking about it, there are a few diehard FR haters here too, might be the same persons, who knows. Most of those have not even flown FR in the last 10 years but claim to know it all. I fly them about 30 to 40 times a year so I think my experience is more believable then that nonsense quoted at that website.

What is has to do with is a company trying to murky the water by detracting attention from an obviously serious incident, themselves giving false information contrary to the safetly regulator (BFU). It's the kettle calling the pot black in this instance kl911

Indeed, many hate FR and have no reason to do so expect idle gossip that they hear or one horror story in every million passengers. However, the same company is now ruining its mainly good reputation because of silliness. Freedom of speech or not, why have FR decided now to wade into the negative criticism against FR? Answer me that! There have been one million idiotic and negative, damning and defamatory comments posted on 100s of websites. Why now? A diversion perhaps from a serious incident?
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
enginebird
Topic Author
Posts: 118
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 42):
My point exactly. This is negative press for them - it actually draws more attention to the incident that they are trying to keep a little bit more quiet.

It has now even been taken up by Tagesschau (Germany's "channel 1" today's news) and its website tagesschau.de, one of the if not *the* most most trusted German news outlets and some people there comment along the lines of "don't risk your life and fly with unsafe low cost airlines like FR...". Probably not exactly what FR wanted:
Tagesschau
 
art
Posts: 2665
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:46 pm

I don't see why the name of a company threatening legal action should not be mentioned. If Ryanair is doing so against AvHerald, that is what is happening.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 21):
Factually inaccurate statements re: Ryanair safety will go straight to his bottom line.

Yes, if statements made purport to be factual but are not so and are defamatory, I think the generally agreed principle is that the organ enabling publication (ie AvHerald) and the author of the falsehood(s) are at fault.

I think you are at liberty to publish falsehoods eg let's suppose there is a sports car called the Imagine. Well, you can say it has fantastic brakes if it does not. You can't say it has dangerously bad brakes if it does not.

Having just looked at the AvHerald site in the link, I see at least one comment that I would imagine to be defamatory.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 39):
All I can read and understand is one harshly worded post by Simon where he complains about some script that forum uses. I can understand if you criticize the foul language but I don't really see the connection to this case.

He demanded that the script blocking access from no-referer access, be blocked, claiming that it is illegal. Shows his 'attitude'.

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 39):
It is okay to criticize, but trying to silence critical voices is simply not, regardless if the person in question is a nice fellow or is throwing a stink from time to time.

Well, guess what, your hero has silenced criticism and also corrections to erroneous data.

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 39):
Still, personal antipathy is not warrented in the current case and after all he didn't threaten to sue the forum.

He's playing the victim... no he didn't threaten to sue that forum, but he did make threats if I remember correctly, in private correspondence... and he did not "enjoy" his "private complaints" being aired, because he deemed it confidential... well, him writing what he did on his site, basically shows his double standards.

Quoting LJ (Reply 37):
The media will make this a David vs Goliath story if it gets picked up by the news outlets, and this is usually not good for the Goliath in question. This doesn't mean that FR should accept everything, but is this worth the fight?

LOL! Yeah, unfortunately... the case in question isn't really a David vs Goliath, more of "the Godfather vs the small time equivalent".

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Aviation Herald Under Legal Threat

Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:57 pm

What happened to O'Leary's all-publicity-is-good-publicity mantra?
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!