AF185
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Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:44 am

According to Bloomberg:

Quote:
WestJet Airlines Ltd. (WJA) is evaluating adding long-haul international routes and has begun talks with Boeing Co. (BA) and rival Airbus SAS about wide-body jets that could fly farther than its single-aisle fleet.

Discussions are preliminary and focused on availability, capability and pricing, WestJet Chief Executive Officer Gregg Saretsky said at an investor presentation today. The airline has no definitive plans to purchase wide-body aircraft, and any decisions will probably be delayed until it’s satisfied with new Encore regional unit.

“There’s an opportunity for us to start exploring this notion of a possible wide-body long-haul international operations,” Saretsky said. The airline is just starting to review “what that might look like,” he said, and has no immediate plans to order aircraft

Buying bigger planes and adding longer routes would give WestJet more ammunition as it seeks to win market share from larger competitor Air Canada. (AC/A) The discounter resumed flights to New York’s LaGuardia airport in June and plans to open its new regional unit by 2013 to serve locations now only reached by Canada’s largest airline.

More information on the following link: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...ng-airbus-on-wide-body-planes.html
 
BlueBus
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:48 am

Southwest and WestJet changing so much gives opportunity for other airlines to replace their old models, imho
 
PHX787
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:22 am

WN will probably remain domestic for the near future, I see no widebody orders for them at all for a long time....

For WestJet this is a bit surprising.

If this was 1995 and we were talking about this, user WestJet747 would be all excited right now  


That aside, these guys are probably looking at the 788 or A359. I honestly do not see them pulling a Skymark and buying A380s/748i's.
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lostsound
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:09 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
That aside, these guys are probably looking at the 788 or A359.

I'd say the A330 is up for discussion too.  

My guess is the 787 will be the victor because of their relationship with Boeing, especially just after receiving their 100th 737NG aircraft. However I'd love to see them order the A350 to give the Canadian market more aircraft diversity seeing Air Canada has already ordered 787s. And so I could get better chance to fly on the A350 and 787. :P

[Edited 2012-12-06 20:12:43]
 
dlramp4life
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:13 am

If WestJet or WN is looking into wide body aircraft which I found doubtful I think they would dabble with a 767 first if anything...
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CPA62
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:43 am

It would be great to see a 2nd sched international carrier, particulalry one based in the west. Air Canada
has done little to develop routes from Western Canada (in my opinion). Hope Westjet can fill the need particulalry from
Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver.
I wonder if WEstjet is talking with Branson on a low cost carrier, since Air Canada nixed any possibility of a joint venture?
 
cyeg66
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:05 am

Well, I for one, am shocked by this news....


On second thought, perhaps not. To dredge the same old discussion as in the past, there's a reason YYC is expanding to the extent that it is. First Encore, then will come Envoy (or whatever new "international name they will affix to their long haul flying). It's been a long time coming... Their home base makes a pretty good launch pad for long haul, methinks. It'll never get as big as YYZ, YUL, or YVR's international ops, but it should be good to double current international pax numbers within 10 year's time. My guesstimations only... Looking forward to the anti-Wetjet-small-fry-forever comments that are no doubt gonna surface in this thread.
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DocLightning
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:08 am

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 4):

If WestJet or WN is looking into wide body aircraft which I found doubtful I think they would dabble with a 767 first if anything...

I doubt it very much. I'd say that the options would be 787, A330, or A350.

The 787 would be the ideal aircraft. Small size, good flexibility, low operating costs. But it won't be available until almost 2020 at this point with its backlog. The A350 has the operating costs but is larger probably than ideal. It can probably be had within three years. The A330 can be had within one to two years, I'd wager, but has the highest operating costs. That said, the current A330 is still a modern, efficient aircraft and it's going to be less expensive to order than the new planes.
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timpdx
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:18 am

The A330 series seems to be the go-to airframe for carriers needing wb wings sooner than later. Too bad the 767 just doesn't seem to be competitive for need it ASAP widebodies.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:37 am

Quoting AF185 (Thread starter):
Discussions are preliminary and focused on availability, capability and pricing, WestJet Chief Executive Officer Gregg Saretsky said at an investor presentation today.

Interesting that it is Gregg Saretsky that is considering this. As most know, he was in upper management at Canadian Airlines ... and since his arrival at Westjet, they are looking more and more like Canadian! I hope he does better than the first iteration.
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JU068
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:06 am

So what routes would they consider launching? Maybe London in Europe?
 
threepoint
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:04 am

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 5):
Air Canada has done little to develop routes from Western Canada (in my opinion).

Only because the market from western Canada doesn't really warrant such development. What enhanced service could you suggest (that will make money)?

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 6):
Looking forward to the anti-Wetjet-small-fry-forever comments that are no doubt gonna surface in this thread.

What will surface is what's on everybody's mind: WestJet has radically diverged from their original and tested business model. Change is good Donkey, but I wonder how WS can keep cost structure down with the introduction of much new infrastructure overseas, a tripling of aircraft types, etc.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 10):
So what routes would they consider launching? Maybe London in Europe?

No doubt the leisure routes with high load factors and price conscious travelers (LGW, HKG, maybe something in mainland China, but more likely more western Europe).
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JU068
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:12 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 11):
No doubt the leisure routes with high load factors and price conscious travelers (LGW, HKG, maybe something in mainland China, but more likely more western Europe).

Thanks. I hope we see them launch flights to Belgrade!
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:25 pm

I imagine, if it actually does ever happen, they'll test the long haul waters much like they're trying out the 757...they'll try some wet leases to check things out before committing to buying a fleet.
What the...?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:51 pm

This sounds wise. See what the economics are and think about it. Let Boeing and Airbus know you are interested, but wait to see what the best option is. Its a shame the MAX won't have a little more range, or Westjet could skip the widebodies all together.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
WN will probably remain domestic for the near future, I see no widebody orders for them at all for a long time....

WN will go international. Just with 737s.  
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 4):
I think they would dabble with a 767 first if anything...

Why?!? 767s are being replaced by A330s and 788s. Since Westjet isn't planning to rush into widebodies, they have time to learn about and decide on the A330, A359, and 789. I doubt they would look and larger. After returning 736s to the leasors, I expect WJ will focus on CASM which relugates the 767 to 'has been.' Why did you suggest the 767 for an airline that won't be incorporating widebodies for a few years? By the time Westjet buys a widebody, there will be hundreds of 787s in the global fleet and that will change the economics.

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brilondon
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
I imagine, if it actually does ever happen, they'll test the long haul waters much like they're trying out the 757...they'll try some wet leases to check things out before committing to buying a fleet.

I am surprised at WS not having their own 757's in the fleet before they move into the wide body market. I can't see WS buying any thing from Europe but from Boeing as they seem to like the North American product.
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lostsound
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 15):
I can't see WS buying any thing from Europe but from Boeing as they seem to like the North American product.

I don't think North America has anything to do with it. They started their business model based off Southwest's so they used the same 737 aircraft in order to do it properly. Through that, they have built a strong relationship with Boeing, who have so far churned out 100 planes in their name. This relationship they already have with the manufacturer is why I believe they will not go the Airbus path. Boeing will probably offer the 737MAX for cheap along side a 787 order which would be quite appetizing to WS.
 
sweair
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:25 pm

There are still some "terrible teens" on the market, a very cheap WB and should be decent in size and range? Shorter backlog too compared to new builds.
 
strangr
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:07 pm

imo Westjet has the ability to expand into a larger market, and I would be thinking only into the EU market which is what Canadians want the most of.

I consider how companies like VAU, they started off as a Low cost, no frills carrier, to now be a business market carrier fighting with the legacy for far more.

I see great potential in this for WJ, but hope they are smarter and only aim for markets like EU, a company like WJ would have no need to fly to China or Australia
 
bigjku
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:14 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
The 787 would be the ideal aircraft. Small size, good flexibility, low operating costs. But it won't be available until almost 2020 at this point with its backlog. The A350 has the operating costs but is larger probably than ideal. It can probably be had within three years. The A330 can be had within one to two years, I'd wager, but has the highest operating costs. That said, the current A330 is still a modern, efficient aircraft and it's going to be less expensive to order than the new planes.

I would think that a few 788 slots might be made open if some of the bigger carriers start taking long looks at the 787-10 and want to convert some of their current orders.

It would be interesting to see if the 788 can make inroads into a low-cost international market on less traveled routes. If there was an airframe to do it that would be the one.
 
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:19 pm

I can almost guarantee that Gregg has been wishing the B757-200 were still available for purchase from Boeing.
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Viscount724
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:03 am

Quoting strangr (Reply 18):
I see great potential in this for WJ, but hope they are smarter and only aim for markets like EU, a company like WJ would have no need to fly to China or Australia

WestJet is WS not WJ. WJ is another Canadian carrier, Air Labrador, based in Goose Bay (YYR) serving many small points in the province of Newfoundland & Labrador as well as Quebec with 7 Twin Otters, 1 Beech 1900, 1 Beech King Air and 1 Cessna 208 Caravan.
 
sixtyseven
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:09 am

Wonder if he will contract that flying out in terms of pilots?

He's done that with Encore.

He's tried it with the 757 Hawaii op.

He just made a speech concerning his unit costs being up 50% since launch. This certainly won't help.
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YVRLTN
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:06 am

Quoting AF185 (Thread starter):
The airline has no definitive plans to purchase wide-body aircraft, and any decisions will probably be delayed until it’s satisfied with new Encore regional unit.

I think this is the key. Very wise to get Encore making money before they try out new ventures.

That being said, the 788 is a no brainer if they ever go down this path. But I struggle to come up with new routes not already served, so they will just be stealing off AC as usual. I think current opportunities in secondary Chinese markets will be taken by the time this happens. I cant suddenly see a mass explosion of growth in YYC to start offering flights to HKG, PVG etc.

Can anyone explain why Zoom failed? They seemed to have a good thing going, I really enjoyed their service (for what I paid) when I used them and the planes seemed to be pretty full. My understanding it was their UK operation, Canada left to itself probably would have been OK? My point being there could be market for a similar product with 788's instead of 763's to compete with Canadian Affair (TS) and it would probably have a better chance of making it with the huge recognition and respect WS have vs a newb like Z4, deeper pockets and regional feed. Get a couple of codeshares with someone like AB or BE.
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ba777-236
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:14 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
The 787 would be the ideal aircraft. Small size, good flexibility, low operating costs. But it won't be available until almost 2020 at this point with its backlog.

What about via lessors? I'm sure their longhaul fleet (to start off) wouldn't be huge, so why not lease 5 frames and order 5 more?

What about Westjet and alliances? Are they interested in joining Oneworld or Skyteam?
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abrelosojos
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:27 am

Gregg is a very smart man, and WestJet is probably has the best approach to figuring out the airline game. Airlines must evolve. Or, die. In a country with only 35 million people, saturation for the 737 fleet would have happened sooner or later. Gregg and team must be admired for recognizing this and taking the airline in the next steps of its natural evolution.

They have a fantastic executive team supported by some very strong managers across in finance and network planning. I do see the widebody in their fleet - but hopefully, they will give the 350 and the 333 consideration.

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EA CO AS
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:51 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 20):
I can almost guarantee that Gregg has been wishing the B757-200 were still available for purchase from Boeing.

Scratch that, I meant the -300.
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behramjee
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:31 pm

Over a long term period, the ideal aircraft for WS's long haul aspirations is indeed the Boeing 787-900 which would offer the best overall performance capable of seating 350 pax in an all Y class configuration with 32 inch seat pitch and a flying range of 13-14 hours nonstop with no payload issues.

However the Canadian high density long haul market is very seasonal and yields arent that great. For example, demand to Europe in IATA Winter season falls down quite a bit and in the summer months demand is less to the Caribbean states. The only year round long haul markets that witness consistent demand is the Canada-Far East Asia markets of China, HKG, MNL, Japan and South Korea. Even India is seasonal i.e. demand is mainly between OCT-FEB but the yields to India are way lower and un-viable for a privately owned airline to consider versus SE Asia.

WS also needs to see which alliance would like to take it on because it can then act as a good feeder for the Canadian market. Obviously its two only choices are Sky Team and One World but gaining access to decent LHR slots might be a real problem for the airline. For Sky Team though, it should not face a problem getting slots at CDG as it is France and Italy are big VFR (FCO) and leisure markets out of Canada.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:34 pm

It will be years before Westjet gets serious about any overseas routes. It is going to take at least a couple of years for their expansion plans south to solidify after they get the Q400's on line...which will take a couple of years in itself.

It's interesting that they are floating the idea of widebody aircraft, but I suspect it will be at least 3 years before they actually get serious about choosing a plane...if they ever do.
What the...?
 
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longhauler
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 25):
Airlines must evolve. Or, die.

I agree with what you say, but I think I would use the word "adapt" over "evolve". There are good reasons why an airline should not change if it is not necessary.

Look at Southwest Airlines, the airline after which WS (and most LCCs) was modeled. They are still basically holding onto their roots, and they are still one of the most consistently profitable airlines on the earth with an enviable passenger satisfaction rate. While rumours run rampant, still after 50 years, Southwest still had one aircraft type, (I don't see the B717s lingering long), still no regional carrier and still no aspirations of wide body aircraft.

This recent article about Westjet made me wonder about "evolving" into a legacy carrier:

http://www.theprovince.com/touch/story.html?id=7666418
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airliner371
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):

WN will probably remain domestic for the near future, I see no widebody orders for them at all for a long time....

Well, they will in 2015, not exactly short term but not too far out.
 
krisyyz
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:39 pm

Great news for Canadian travellers, but not for AC's LCC and TS. If WS is able to maintain their level of service on long-haul ops then they will undoubtedly take customers away from the current carriers. As mentioned, the 737MAX/787 order has a good chance, but I would discount the A330 just yet, it depends on how quickly WS wants to start long-haul ops.

KrisYYZ
 
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longhauler
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:55 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 31):
If WS is able to maintain their level of service on long-haul ops then they will undoubtedly take customers away from the current carriers.

Only if they are cheaper. There is NO brand loyalty nor service preferences when it comes to vacation leisure travelers. And I would doubt that WS could come close to Transat or Sunwing with regard to seat mile costs.
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threepoint
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 29):
This recent article about Westjet made me wonder about "evolving" into a legacy carrier:

http://www.theprovince.com/touch/story.html?id=7666418

From the article longhauler provided:
He said WestJet also wants to revisit the benefits received by the mainline employees.
“We have found ourselves because of where the industry has gone — mostly backwards — that we’re well above market in a lot of those,” he said. “We’re going to revisit that.”


This seems to reinforce that WestJet is resigned to joining the race to the bottom that they have trumpeted seperates them from the legacy carriers.
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lostsound
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:51 pm

I think the biggest question of all is, would they be all-economy or will WestJet introduce a new long haul business class?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 32):
There is NO brand loyalty nor service preferences when it comes to vacation leisure travelers.

Many leisure passengers also want to get their frequent flyer miles. A lot of leisure travellers are also very frequent business travellers and may thus prefer the same carrier for their leisure travels.
 
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 9):
Interesting that it is Gregg Saretsky that is considering this. As most know, he was in upper management at Canadian Airlines ... and since his arrival at Westjet, they are looking more and more like Canadian!

Other than a 737 fleet based in YYC, WS is really nothing like CP was.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 11):
What will surface is what's on everybody's mind: WestJet has radically diverged from their original and tested business model.

Radically? No. Marginally? Yes. WS remains the same as it always was: an LCC. They have simply grown and added a FFP and Y+ cabin and offer good service (as good as AC). The key to WS will always be lower costs, whether they add 788 and TA/TP routes or not.
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Viscount724
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
They have simply grown and added a FFP and Y+ cabin and offer good service (as good as AC).

Frequency is also part of service. In most cases WS doesn't match AC frequency in major competitive markets, and frequency is a very strong factor in carrier choice, especially by business travellers who generate the highest yields.
 
PHX787
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 30):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):

WN will probably remain domestic for the near future, I see no widebody orders for them at all for a long time....

Well, they will in 2015, not exactly short term but not too far out.

I should've specified that I see WN as narrow-body only, given HOU's endeavor of getting Mexican service.
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:47 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
The key to WS will always be lower costs, whether they add 788 and TA/TP routes or not.

What cost advantage ! WS's cost advantage over AC is down to only 10, 15%.

http://business.financialpost.com/20...s-cushion-over-air-canada-shrinks/

It will get even worse once these presumed long haul aircraft arrive into the fleet.

Thenoflyzone
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 6):
Their home base makes a pretty good launch pad for long haul, methinks. It'll never get as big as YUL, or YVR's international ops, but it should be good to double current international pax numbers within 10 year's time. My guesstimations only..

Doubling the international passenger numbers at YYC from 1 million and change to 3 million is not a small feat (transborder pax not included)! Especially in 10 years time. Heck i got 10 years in the company and I'm sure it seems like yesterday when we were both sitting on YQB TCU. A blink of an eye i tell ya !

WS will not get any new long-haul aircraft before 2016, 2017 at the earliest. That's already 4-5 years away. Doesn't leave much time to double intl pax numbers in just 5 years.

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 5):
Air Canada
has done little to develop routes from Western Canada (in my opinion).
Quoting threepoint (Reply 11):
Only because the market from western Canada doesn't really warrant such development. What enhanced service could you suggest (that will make money)?

Exactly ! If there was money to be made, AC would be on it. We saw this as well with AC trying to establish their LCC on trans-pac routes out of YVR, only to realize that the market might not be there, due to the rise of non-stop flights from YYZ (where the money is in the first place !).

WS's cost structure is increasing (read post above), and it will only get worse with the Dash 8-400s and long haul aircraft arriving in the fleet. A 5-10% increase in operating costs is often the difference between making money on a route or not !

We know WS wants to lower costs, and this will inevitably make WS realize that going low cost long-haul might not be the best idea in order to achieve this.

My bet is on them scrapping the idea altogether. Low cost long haul has been proven to be very difficult to operate successfully.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-12-09 08:40:45]
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connies4ever
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
WN will go international. Just with 737s.



Tend to agree. And if they are looking at Canada as an initial "international" market, I'd bet YHM would be the place they go. It's reasonably close to Toronto with nowhere near the fees that YYZ charges. Heck, WN could even arrange a "WN Express" bus to Toronto downtown to make it painless (slight extra charge). Not sure immigration facilities at YHM, but I'm sure that can be arranged.

Then maybe YHU, not crowded, close to centre-ville, and again cheaper than YUL.
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YXD172
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 41):
Heck, WN could even arrange a "WN Express" bus to Toronto downtown to make it painless (slight extra charge). Not sure immigration facilities at YHM, but I'm sure that can be arranged.

It'd be an interesting idea, the facilities are already there (there are a few weeklies to the Caribbean right now) and I'm sure the YHM airport authority would be happy to get any more service, seeing as how they're down to two WS flights a day (plus ~6 international flights weekly over the winter, or another 4 daily WS summer flights).

That said, I'm not sure how low the fees are at YHM compared to YYZ (WS is usually ~$20 cheaper at YHM, but that doesn't always correlate directly with fees).

Either way, it could get interesting if we see WN and WS revisit the tie-up that they were thinking of a while back!
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yyz717
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
They have simply grown and added a FFP and Y+ cabin and offer good service (as good as AC).

Frequency is also part of service. In most cases WS doesn't match AC frequency in major competitive markets, and frequency is a very strong factor in carrier choice, especially by business travellers who generate the highest yields.

I agree. The Q400 fleet will enable them to increase freq's on key business routes.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 39):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
The key to WS will always be lower costs, whether they add 788 and TA/TP routes or not.

What cost advantage ! WS's cost advantage over AC is down to only 10, 15%.

I know. I read that also. I wonder if that comment was aimed at the WS workforce that cost reduction will continue to rule at WS.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 40):
WS's cost structure is increasing (read post above), and it will only get worse with the Dash 8-400s and long haul aircraft arriving in the fleet.

But the Q400's will bring in extra revenue, and WS is betting that the incremental revenue will exceed the incremental cost.

Getting back to a WS widebody, WS could like order 5 788's just for operation on existing routes (eg, YYZ-YYC/YVR, YVR-HNL/GOG, YYC-HNL, and a few sun routes) given their high load factors with their NG fleet. So an initial widebody order does not necessarily indicate a move into TA/TP routes right away.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
BE77
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 40):
Doubling the international passenger numbers at YYC

Being an airline pax based out of YYC, there are a few limitations in the WS offerings right now that a widebody would help fix (although a 737MAX would help in some cases).
Hawai'i is a very real problem! (Well, it's not Hawai'i fault, but WS can't get there from YEG and YYC direct without the 757 lease which is a real downgrade in the onboard product (as much as I love the 757, even the non-XM AC 767 is a better on board product for a 6 hour flight).
Direct to anywhere in the Caribbean is another area (other than CUN and Cuba) - although the MAX probably will make more sense in most cases.
At peak times they could fill YYC-YYZ flights easily enough without having to sacrifice fares.
And of coourse, YYZ to Europe or Asia is not an option for them without a wb - and that market just keeps growing with the oil sands increasing (such as the NEXXEN deal this weekend).

One thing about YYC is that there is a lot more premium market per capita than any other city in Canada (try to get an upgrade on AC on anything other than the red-eye flights). The premium pax are not just for the biz class either, but willing to pay a bit more for direct flights.
Of course, while a wb fleet for WS would probably start out in YYC, if (when?) they went international there is the entire YVR to Asia, Australia, and NZ markets. AC is sure keeping prices up there whenever I look at YVR-SYD flights, and there are no deal on NZ either. YYZ and YUL to Europe is more competitive, but there is probably room for them there as well, even if only to give AC bashers a home team option.
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BE77
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:09 pm

As for a wb type.
If they do go for wb, it would almost have to be a 787 or 350....choosing the 767 or 330 for anything more than temp lift while the 'real' order was being built would not work so well in the duopoly AC vs WS world. Basically, neither of them can afford to fall too far behind in their offerings - they can be different, but they can't be inferior / old / etc.

So with AC getting 787's, WS just can't be seen buying 'old' last generation technology, with all the comfort and environmental differences that would go with it - AC would just have a free pass on all the marketing (cabin pressure and comfort, greenhouse gases / CO2 / efficiency per seat, etc., etc.).

While for sure not the only reason for the choice, a similar argument was there for the when the Q's were picked over the ATR - with AC already adding the Q's to their fleet you really don't want to have the slower option (even if the gate to gate time was only a few minutes different) when you are competing over distances in Canada!
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TWA772LR
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:08 pm

If Westjet is really serious, I think they would go for some second hand 763s first. New A350s, A330s, 777s, or 787s is just too much money to risk.
Not every day we find light winds. What do we do in these situations? Fly.
 
cyeg66
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 40):
Doubling the international passenger numbers at YYC from 1 million and change to 3 million is not a small feat (transborder pax not included)!

Amazing the number of passengers 3 or 4 based 788-sized aircraft would bring in. Not all that difficult, really. Besides, by my "ok" math skills, 1.3 x 2 = 2.6. Nit-picky, but a bit of a difference. Additionally, Calgary will have long since outgrown Ottawa as Canada's 4th largest city in the next 10 years by probably adding about another 300k citizens in that time. Organically, that means more people will be flying then. Unless another loopy Liberal takes the helm   , the 'real' per capita money will also (still) be there.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 40):
Especially in 10 years time. Heck i got 10 years in the company and I'm sure it seems like yesterday when we were both sitting on YQB TCU.


Except the difference is, you probably were sitting there just the other day. Lol. And yes, time flies.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 40):
WS will not get any new long-haul aircraft before 2016, 2017 at the earliest. That's already 4-5 years away. Doesn't leave much time to double intl pax numbers in just 5 years.

I sorta predicated my assumptions on them getting long haul as early as those dates you mention but in all likelihood, it would be even longer than that so doubling numbers would likely take a few years longer.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 40):
Exactly ! If there was money to be made, AC would be on it. We saw this as well with AC trying to establish their LCC on trans-pac routes out of YVR, only to realize that the market might not be there, due to the rise of non-stop flights from YYZ (where the money is in the first place !)

AC isn't currently in the business of making profits, though. They're close but rarely hitting the mark. Perhaps operating out of one of the world's most expensive airports (with YUL not being terribly cheap, either) hurts their bottom line. Dunno. Thank God bankruptcies help to sort some of those pesky high operating cost issues out. Westjet will never (at least for the foreseeable future) have to resort to such practices because they like to operate in the black. Their top dogs make decisions that see to it, as opposed to AC's upper management famously sacrificing body parts to put a few bucks in the shareholders' pockets. Bravo. As yyz717 alluded to, sure WS's costs can only go up but they're banking on making their revenue stream increase incrementally by that same and even greater amount. This isn't the US with their much larger market. Here, you change or you fail (die is such a harsh term).

Keep up those differing strategies, boys. See what the future holds. Should be interesting in any event. What's funny is that nothing, absolutely nothing is definitive as far as WS and long-haul flying is concerned. I'll bet YYC airport authority are privy to a few of their ideas, though.
slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:11 am

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 47):
Additionally, Calgary will have long since outgrown Ottawa as Canada's 4th largest city in the next 10 years by probably adding about another 300k citizens in that time. Organically, that means more people will be flying then.

Yes, most of them will be flying, but you and me both know that most of the flying will be domestic.

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 47):
They're close but rarely hitting the mark. Perhaps operating out of one of the world's most expensive airports (with YUL not being terribly cheap, either) hurts their bottom line.
YYC is going to need to fund their new 14,000 footer and the new terminal somehow....so you can count on fees going up in cowtown as well. Airport improvement fees already got bumped up to 30$ per passenger as of March 1, 2013.

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 47):
I'll bet YYC airport authority are privy to a few of their ideas, though.

Of course. They have adopted the "build it and they will come" mentality. Let's see if its going to work.

Personally, i wouldn't hold my breath.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-12-09 20:17:51]
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connies4ever
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RE: Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order

Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:32 am

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 47):
AC isn't currently in the business of making profits, though. They're close but rarely hitting the mark.

$429M to the good last quarter, just to point out. Even Mr Saretsky has recently conceded that WS's cost advantage over AC has largely evaporated.

Most of AC's financial woes derive from three sources:
- defined benefit pension plan;
- lingering effects of merger (a stupid move IMHO since CP was close to collapse anyway);
- ACCPA (which was out of their hands as a point of law)
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