smitty747
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:35 pm

Just released as breaking news on CNN. No info on aircraft type or location.
I'm not familiar with her, but best wishes for a good outcome.
 
mingocr83
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:09 pm

Seems to be a learjet..not found yet...
A380, A321, A320, A319, 757-200, 737-800WL, 737-700WL, E190
 
 
AR385
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting smitty747 (Thread starter):
Just released as breaking news on CNN. No info on aircraft type or location.
I'm not familiar with her, but best wishes for a good outcome.


Learjet 25
N345MC
6 people on board total
Last contact was at 61.8 miles south of MTY
Took off from ADN, bound for Toluca at 03:40AM local

Sad thing. The area is pretty difficult to acess and if memory serves me right it can be pretty remote. What about the Emergency Beacon?

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/888926.html

[Edited 2012-12-09 12:19:03]

[Edited 2012-12-09 12:21:17]
 
RubberJungle
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:48 pm

Statement from Mexican transport ministry:

http://www.sct.gob.mx/uploads/media/Comunicado_003-Dic.pdf
 
ogshelly
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:19 pm

This is what I just read in the Universal, Mexican newspaper, sorry just Spanish:
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/888926.html
A Lear Jet 65 miles after take off early this AM from Monterrey.
RIP and my condokences to the families of Jenny Rivera, and her crew.
 
AR385
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:25 pm

They found the plane. No word on the condition or if there are survivors, I assume not. It´s in a very remote, mountanious area. I know the region.
 
PHX787
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 3):
N345MC

Oh wow, what a shock....I photographed this plane when it was at LUK a few years back....

I couldn't find anything productive on Flightaware for this plane....
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aerorobnz
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:00 pm

The Lear 25 was vintage. Made in 1969 cn46. Of course it could still fly safely if maintained - just an observation...
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
BP1
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:19 pm

N345MC is registered to:

1. Starwood Management LLC in Las Vegas according to www.faa.gov

2. Starwood Management LLC's Managing Member is Norma Gonzalez at 3540 W. Sahara Avenue, Las Vegas, NV 89102 - according to the Nevada Secretary of State at http://nvsos.gov/sosentitysearch/CorpSearch.aspx

3. The address of 3540 W. Sahara Avenue, Las Vegas, NV shows a company called "Private Jet Charter Flights Las Vegas" according to Google at www.privatejetcharterflightslasvegas.com

4. Don't know if this plane was on a Part 135 Certificate.

5. Starwood Management LLC is owned b y Rodatz Financial Group, Inc. at the same address with Suite 202. Rodatz Financial Group Inc., shows 18 planes with relationships at this location according to www.jetnet.com. (The Google Earth shows this address as a UPS store, but it could be wrong)

It will be interesting to find out if this was a real Part 135 charter, lease, Part 91 or Part 134 1/2 trip. Condolences to the families.

[Edited 2012-12-09 15:44:18]

[Edited 2012-12-09 15:46:26]

[Edited 2012-12-09 15:49:00]
"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
 
AR385
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:55 am

Plane found. No survivors. "Completely fragmented" according to sources. So sad. It is a strange accident, though, not saying antything sinister is involved, just that a Learjet just does not fall out of the sky like that.
 
sr117
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:12 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
Plane found. No survivors. "Completely fragmented" according to sources. So sad. It is a strange accident, though, not saying antything sinister is involved, just that a Learjet just does not fall out of the sky like that.

The footage on TV makes it look at this was a very high speed impact, and given the distance from the takeoff point, this seems very strange indeed. The wreckage reminds me of the PSA Bae 146 crash.

I wasn't a fan of the lady's music but she was quite popular, it's always very sad when you see footage of people being interviewed a few minutes before something tragic, they state how happy they are and seem in good spirits, and then fate takes everything away so suddenly.
 
as739x
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting SR117 (Reply 11):
very high speed impact, and given the distance from the takeoff point

The plane was 65 miles from departure. Not exactly just past takeoff point.

Either way, prayers to all involved.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
sr117
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:48 am

Quoting as739x (Reply 12):
The plane was 65 miles from departure. Not exactly just past takeoff point.

Exactly... it was almost at cruise level ! Given the fact that there were apparently no emergency calls made before radar lost contact with the plane, this all seems quite strange.
 
coachclass
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:32 am

Do these planes have black boxes?
 
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tb727
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:49 am

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 14):
Do these planes have black boxes?

The Lear 25 should have one.
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timpdx
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:14 am

Explosive decompression?
 
flymia
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:27 am

Saw this story. When I heard is was a Lear 25 first thing that came to my mind is a fairly old jet. Of course it could be flown safely but I feel like flying in a Jet that old can't be the best thing in the world for two reason that come to mind. One if it is part 135 its a smaller company that does not have newer planes, and maybe a company that is not making much money. 2nd someone wanted to have a private jet but did not have the money for a newer one. I feel like if you are going to fly around in a Lear 25 you might as well just fly first class commercial and charter when you need it or purchase a smaller cheaper jet or even turbo prop.

Hopefully this aircraft has a black box. I would imagine it will have a data recorder yes?
Always horrible to hear about any fatal incident.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Viajero
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:42 am

RIP Jenni. Condolences to Don Pedro and the rest of the Rivera family.

Quoting SR117 (Reply 13):
Exactly... it was almost at cruise level ! Given the fact that there were apparently no emergency calls made before radar lost contact with the plane, this all seems quite strange.

Very strange indeed. In any event, it makes one wonder...
 
AR385
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:49 am

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/888971.html

According to the above the Captain was 78 years old. Is that possible?
 
as739x
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:05 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
According to the above the Captain was 78 years old. Is that possible?

Yes. Only age limit is for Part 121, which this was not.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
akelley728
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:56 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
According to the above the Captain was 78 years old. Is that possible?
Quoting as739x (Reply 20):
Yes. Only age limit is for Part 121, which this was not.

Heart attack, stroke, or other major medical issue? If the pilot slumped over the control yoke they could have gone into a steep dive and with the high Gs the co-pilot might have been pinned in his chair or went unconscious. Would explain the high-speed impact.
 
questions
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:17 am

Quoting BP1 (Reply 9):
It will be interesting to find out if this was a real Part 135 charter, lease, Part 91 or Part 134 1/2 trip.
Quoting as739x (Reply 20):
Only age limit is for Part 121, which this was not.

What is Part 135, Part 91, Part 134 1/2, Part 121?
 
flymia
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:29 am

Quoting questions (Reply 22):

Those are the different types of operations, and how they are classified in 14 CFR, or Chapter 14 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations.

Part 121 is scheduled air carrier, part 135 is a charter/commuter on demand air taxis, part 91 is private general aviation. It's just the way the different regulations are in U.S. federal law. This aircraft is not an airline so part 121 regulations do not apply. Part 121 is the only type of flying that has an age limit. So as long as the pilot can pass a medical he or she can continue to fly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Aviation_Regulations

[Edited 2012-12-09 23:31:25]
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
questions
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:32 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 23):

Thanks flymia.
 
AR385
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:36 am

I´ve come across a few private pics of the crash site. Out of respect, I won´t post them here, but if anybody is interested, PM me. The degree of destruction, is amazing.
 
sshd
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:57 am

Hello,

Any weather report available?
 
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tb727
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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:58 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
Hopefully this aircraft has a black box. I would imagine it will have a data recorder yes?

It should have a CVR at least.
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tjwgrr
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:01 pm

Quoting timpdx (Reply 16):
Explosive decompression?

Reminds me of the the Payne Stewart Lear 35 accident back in 1999.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
art
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:21 pm

Very sad. May all the victims RIP.

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 21):
If the pilot slumped over the control yoke they could have gone into a steep dive and with the high Gs the co-pilot might have been pinned in his chair or went unconscious.

Would the aircraft not break up before the level of G required to disable the co-pilot was reached?

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 28):
Reminds me of the the Payne Stewart Lear 35 accident back in 1999.

I recall that. I don't think the pilot contacted ATC before losing consciousness.
 
gulfstream650
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:24 pm

Interesting:

I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe
 
connies4ever
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 28):
Quoting timpdx (Reply 16):
Explosive decompression?

Reminds me of the the Payne Stewart Lear 35 accident back in 1999.

No distress message, high velocity impact. Certainly crossed my mind.

   RIP all those on board.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 21):
If the pilot slumped over the control yoke they could have gone into a steep dive and with the high Gs the co-pilot might have been pinned in his chair or went unconscious.

A steep dive usually doesn't generate those kinds of G's right away...it's pullup or bank that gets you. But Lears have coupled controls, right? The co-pilot should have been able to manhandle the controls enough to get the pilot off.

Quoting art (Reply 29):
Would the aircraft not break up before the level of G required to disable the co-pilot was reached?

Depends on the loading. Civil jets are rated to 2.5g at MTOW but they have (at least) a 50% safety margin, so they can reasonably be expected to reach 3.75g at MTOW. If they're below MTOW you get a lot of relief...you could easily pull 7g+ if the plane wasn't that heavily loaded.

Tom.
 
brilondon
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 21):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
According to the above the Captain was 78 years old. Is that possible?
Quoting as739x (Reply 20):
Yes. Only age limit is for Part 121, which this was not.

Heart attack, stroke, or other major medical issue? If the pilot slumped over the control yoke they could have gone into a steep dive and with the high Gs the co-pilot might have been pinned in his chair or went unconscious. Would explain the high-speed impact.

I don't believe that there was a second pilot on board, if there was only 1 pilot, would they be allowed to fly?

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 31):
Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 28):
Quoting timpdx (Reply 16):

Explosive decompression?

Reminds me of the the Payne Stewart Lear 35 accident back in 1999.

No distress message, high velocity impact. Certainly crossed my mind.

This has no similarity to the Payne Stewart incident, except that it was a private business jet.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
26point2
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:07 pm

If the photo is legit then I would surmise a dodgy operation. VFR only.....in a jet? And why is the Temporary Cert from 1981? Looks like another bootleg jet charter operator.

Remember the Platinum Jet CL-600 crash at KTEB? Some of those guys are in jail now.
 
triple7x
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 34):

Agree, is pretty fishy how is the cert from 1981 and VFR only in a jet is well.......*speechless*


In addition, a plane should not just fall out of the skies without emergency call etc, all of this sounds pretty fishy. Now I am wondering if the NTSB will step in to investigate this accident as Learjet is more a less a US based aviation company.

[Edited 2012-12-10 07:20:57]


[Edited 2012-12-10 07:25:07]
Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
 
audidudi
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 34):

I think that the date on the bottom left corner says 10/20/2010; that is, if that is a date on the document, however it could be something else. Can anyone come up with another "Temporary Airman Certificate" which shows what's in that space?
 
triple7x
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting audidudi (Reply 36):
Temporary Airman Certificate

Here you go

Temporary Airman Certificate


That looks like the date of issuance......

[Edited 2012-12-10 07:29:25]
Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
 
bralo20
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 34):
If the photo is legit then I would surmise a dodgy operation. VFR only.....in a jet? And why is the Temporary Cert from 1981? Looks like another bootleg jet charter operator.

Remember the Platinum Jet CL-600 crash at KTEB? Some of those guys are in jail now.

The certificate is from 2010 but it also states that it's not valid for the carriage of people...
 
26point2
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:36 pm

You might be right about the lower left box date but still...2010? I believe FAA temps are only valid for 120 days after issuance. And why would a guy get his temp laminated? To make it "last longer"?

Also, the restriction on his Commercial License that's "Not valid for carrying person or property for hire..". Isn't that the whole point of a commercial license? Why this restriction? Perhaps something to do with the VFR only endorsement.
 
aerodog
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 33):
This has no similarity to the Payne Stewart incident, except that it was a private business jet.


I'm not so sure.

In the Payne Stewart accident and at least one other LJ accident, the probable cause was the crew forgot to turn on the bleed air.

In both of these accidents, the autopilot was engaged so the aircraft continued to fly for quite some distance.

Assuming the autopilot was not engaged or even inop, it's a possible cause.
 
audidudi
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:53 pm

Nevertheless, the pilot was going to be 79 years old next month, and we don't know when he had his last physical exam. Could he have had a heart attack or something else whereby he became incapacitated?
 
triple7x
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting audidudi (Reply 41):

There is a co pilot at the flight deck and if it ws really a heart attack, the co pilot should be able to react and at least call the ATC to report in with the situation, although according to wikipedia, the Learjet 25 is considered a pretty challenging aircraft to fly in comparison with most general aviation aircraft and more modern light jets. In addition, the workload of pilots are also considered pretty high as compared to more modern light jets.

As such, I am wondering if one or both of the pilots has any prior experience/lots of experience in flying LJ before......

[Edited 2012-12-10 08:07:31]
Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 33):

I don't believe that there was a second pilot on board, if there was only 1 pilot, would they be allowed to fly?

Not in a Learjet.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 39):
Also, the restriction on his Commercial License that's "Not valid for carrying person or property for hire..". Isn't that the whole point of a commercial license? Why this restriction? Perhaps something to do with the VFR only endorsement.

It's been a long time since my CFIing days but I believe that's the restriction that's automatically granted when a foreign national with a foreign pilot certificate is granted an FAA "reciprocal" pilot certificate. It should also say something like "Valid only with Mexico pilot license # _______." It doesn't necessarily mean the certificate holder was ineligible to fly the airplane.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
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tb727
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:14 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 33):
I don't believe that there was a second pilot on board, if there was only 1 pilot, would they be allowed to fly?

No, 2 are required. The early Lears can be a little bit of a handful, when designed, Bill's original intent was to only have 1 pilot flying when the 23 came out.

Given his age and the fact that he was VFR only, at night, maybe there was some sort of spatial disorientation involved? The 20 series are showing their age, if kept up they can do pretty well. So far this doesn't look like it's going to be an aircraft that was coming from a company that would be like that.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 32):
A steep dive usually doesn't generate those kinds of G's right away...it's pullup or bank that gets you. But Lears have coupled controls, right? The co-pilot should have been able to manhandle the controls enough to get the pilot off.

Yes the Lear has coupled controls. It's all cables in that thing. I've been in a situation where we had the trim go bad and it took every bit of muscle to hold the pitch until we got it trimmed back up with the secondary. A quick killer in the Lear can be runaway pitch trim if you aren't ahead of the game.

This accident kind of compares to one that killed one of the highest time Lear pilots in the world a few years back. http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...ef.aspx?ev_id=20011220X02424&key=1

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 32):
Depends on the loading. Civil jets are rated to 2.5g at MTOW but they have (at least) a 50% safety margin, so they can reasonably be expected to reach 3.75g at MTOW. If they're below MTOW you get a lot of relief...you could easily pull 7g+ if the plane wasn't that heavily loaded.

It is always boasted that the Lear has 7 spars in the wing and that it is over built. In actuality only 2 of the spars go from tip tank to tip tank. It is an airplane will get you into (and out of) trouble pretty quick.
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MountainFlyer
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:31 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 34):
And why is the Temporary Cert from 1981?


It's not. It's from 2010 as has been pointed out.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 39):
I believe FAA temps are only valid for 120 days after issuance. And why would a guy get his temp laminated?


It's entirely possible he was still carrying the temp just because he hadn't taken it out of his wallet or something. He may have a permanent certificate with him that hasn't been found yet.

Quoting Triple7X (Reply 35):

Agree, is pretty fishy how is the cert from 1981 and VFR only in a jet is well.......*speechless*
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 34):
VFR only.....in a jet?


FAA database check shows a valid commercial license with the same issue date, but the VFR only limitation applies to the HS-125, not the Lear. Also, it does not list the Private Pilot privileges limitation for the HS-125 as it appears is on that temp. I'm not sure why they would be different, because if it had changed there would be a new issue date.
SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
 
triple7x
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 45):


SA-227

I think you might had missed something, in front of the HS-125 Private Pilot Privileges VFR Only, there was a phase that read
LR-JET VFR Only;

[Edited 2012-12-10 08:44:58]

[Edited 2012-12-10 08:47:53]
Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
 
bueb0g
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 33):
I don't believe that there was a second pilot on board, if there was only 1 pilot, would they be allowed to fly?

There were 2 pilots on board.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
brilondon
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting aerodog (Reply 40):
I'm not so sure.

In the Payne Stewart accident and at least one other LJ accident, the probable cause was the crew forgot to turn on the bleed air.

In both of these accidents, the autopilot was engaged so the aircraft continued to fly for quite some distance.

Assuming the autopilot was not engaged or even inop, it's a possible cause.

If that were the case in this incident, would the two crew members be incapacitated after that short a time in the air reports stated that it was only 10 minutes after takeoff that the aircraft was lost on radar? I know that this is still in the preliminary stages and I am sure that the reason will be coming out in the future after the investigation is concluded.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
AR385
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RE: Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard

Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 44):
Given his age and the fact that he was VFR only, at night,

Mexico does not allow night VFR.

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