dwcontroller
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EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:30 am

On Virgin America's web site EWR is up sale starting April 2nd. Six flights a day; three to LAX, three to SFO. Starting main cabin fares $149.00.

[Edited 2012-12-10 19:33:11]
Best phrase to hear at the airport - "All standbys have been cleared and may board at this time"
 
N62NA
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:31 am

Nice to see an airline that isn't UA (CO) at EWR!
 
airliner371
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:35 am

All I have to say is they have been trying for a long time, it's about time.
 
phxa340
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:41 am

Good luck Virgin - going to three UA hubs - your going to need it. 9x daily SFO and 7x daily LAX is going to be a lot more attractive than 3x
 
usflyguy
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:10 am

Where'd they get the slots from?
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
usflyer msp
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:13 am

I am generally pretty skeptical about VX but I actually think VX will do pretty well out of EWR. If any airport ever needed fare relief it is EWR! Thanks to UA's pricing power, fares are often 2-3x higher out of EWR compared to JFK or LGA.
 
dbo861
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:38 am

Are they getting more aircraft for this, or decreasing frequencies on other routes? I thought they were only getting one additional aircraft between now and 2015..and I'm sure they'll need more than one aircraft to fly 6 transcons per day.
 
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enilria
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:43 am

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 4):
Where'd they get the slots from?

They aren't getting airplanes so something else is going away. I wonder if that is where the slots come from. Perhaps they are closing IAD and did some sort of deal with UA? Something has to be closing.

The other interesting part is that assuming they bought these slots from somewhere, it means they must have gotten a new infusion of cash...

[Edited 2012-12-10 21:07:41]
 
KLAXAirport
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:47 am

This is great! I know its grueling if you live in Jersey to drive all the way to JFK just to fly Virgin America. This will be a great way for the NJ passengers to get a good experience. I would expect a lot of business travel with TOUGH competition. We'll see...

Cheers,
KLAXAirport   
 
airliner371
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:34 am

Quoting KLAXAirport (Reply 8):
I would expect a lot of business travel with TOUGH competition.

Most businesses in NY that are already established have their own carrier unless the carrier doesn't fly somewhere. New Yorkers take loyalty very seriously, not only airlines but look at the Yankees. I am not saying they won't get business travelers, I am just saying don't expect any amazing number.
 
Jetmarc
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:45 am

Getting EWR slots from American.

Examiner Article
"Sucka, I'm gonna send you out on Knuckle Airlines. Fist Class!!" ~ Mr. T
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:55 am

Three a day is enough to be competative no problem.
 
airliner371
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:55 am

Quoting jetMarc (Reply 10):
Getting EWR slots from American.

All it says about AA is that they are getting the gates from AA.
 
LAXintl
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:35 am

Yes, here is the schedule.

EWR-LAX
VX161 0915-1215 A320
VX165 1300-1555 A320
VX169 1855-2205 A320

LAX-EWR
VX162 0935-1800 A320
VX166 1305-2129 A320
VX170 2335-0759 A320


EWR-SFO
VX183 0730-1045 A319
VX187 1030-1345 A319
VX193 1729-2055 A319

SFO-EWR
VX174 0800-1624 A319
VX178 1445-2320 A319
VX182 2130-0559 A319

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 3):
Good luck Virgin - going to three UA hubs - your going to need it. 9x daily SFO and 7x daily LAX is going to be a lot more attractive than 3x

Look at the big picture.

Combined with JFK frequencies VX will be offering 30 departures daily between NYC and California !

They are a force to be reckoned with especially considering the rather decent fares they garner in the market compared to peers.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
deltal1011man
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:39 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):

They are a force to be reckoned with especially considering the rather decent fares they garner in the market compared to peers.

and yet the are still burning money.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
boilerla
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:58 am

I'm not so sure that UA's service to EWR from LAX & SFO is O&D. I imagine a lot of customers are connecting to int'l itineraries. Whenever I fly into NYC, I prefer JFK P.S. service if it was pure O&D. But when you go on to someplace in Europe you don't have a choice (alas) and you are in a regular service flight to EWR.

That said I'm sure UA will protect this with low fares, some new 739s that are coming in in 2013 and even more service. Hopefully a double EQM offer or two...
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:14 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 14):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
They are a force to be reckoned with especially considering the rather decent fares they garner in the market compared to peers.
and yet the are still burning money.

The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd say the fact that they are still kicking even after losing as much as they have makes them all the more formidable.

-Dave
-Dave
 
southwest737500
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:42 am

I hope VX does well, I for one would love to see them in CLT where US had the prices through the roof

WN is probably the savior hopefully they add CLT-DEN/LAS

just a thought
Next flight: TUL-ATL-CLT CRJ900 and MD88
 
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STT757
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:49 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 1):
Nice to see an airline that isn't UA (CO) at EWR!

Especially in the Trans-Con market, in the '90s we had DL (LAX), AA (LAX), UA (SFO, LAX, SAN, SEA) and CO (SAN, SFO, SNA, SEA, LAX).

[Edited 2012-12-11 03:49:48]
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
klwright69
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:27 pm

As much as I love UA/CO, I am glad to see more competition in any airline's fortress hub. It increases choice and that's not a bad thing.

3x a day will make a dent. Let's see how UA responds that'll be real interesting. I think it was in the 2000s or late 1990's another smaller airline (don't remember which one--the memory is vague) decided to enter the EWR-SFO market. CO really retaliated heavily and really crushed them. Maybe someone recalls who this competitor was.
 
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STT757
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:46 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 19):
I think it was in the 2000s or late 1990's another smaller airline (don't remember which one--the memory is vague) decided to enter the EWR-SFO market. CO really retaliated heavily and really crushed them. Maybe someone recalls who this competitor was.

ATA.....
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
klwright69
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:41 pm

Yes, that is right. I knew it was an airline starting with "A." CO dumped all sorts of capacity and drove them out. Now we're dealing with the resources of the combined entity. Who know maybe UA won't respond that hard.
 
N62NA
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting jetMarc (Reply 10):
Getting EWR slots from American.

Examiner Article

As noted in a prior post it's just a gate. AA could probably drop another gate as well and not have it impact their meager EWR operation at all.
 
SurfandSnow
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:58 pm

I am very happy to see VX finally adding service to EWR. They have been wanting to do so for years, but complained that they could not get commercially viable slots. Congrats to them for this long-awaited accomplishment! However, it does raise some questions:

- Gate space came from AA. However, where did the scarce EWR slots come from? The only equivalent assets that VX could trade to other airlines would be their JFK slots (I don't think the beyond-perimeter DCA slot is transferable), and I doubt VX would want to give any of those up when they finally seem to be getting good pricing power and yields on their JFK routes.

- How does VX, which has slashed near term growth by capping the fleet for several years, come up with the aircraft capacity to offer this service? In the past, they cut underperforming routes within a year. If that is the case, then ORD and Mexico should be safe, while PHL and PDX should be worried right now. They could also cut frequency across the board.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
Philly65
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:29 pm

Looks like PHL is safe although they did drop one round trip on the LAX route...now at 2x's/day. I bet it will be frequency adjustments on other routes especially Mexico and/or Florida. Didn't they announce a few frequency cuts on other routes? That is probably funding the aircraft requirements for the EWR service.
 
usairways85
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 23):
- How does VX, which has slashed near term growth by capping the fleet for several years, come up with the aircraft capacity to offer this service? In the past, they cut underperforming routes within a year. If that is the case, then ORD and Mexico should be safe, while PHL and PDX should be worried right now. They could also cut frequency across the board.

Yes I know the EWR-SFO/LAX market is much different than PHL-SFO/LAX but if US/UA can run VX out of PHL then UA better be able to run VX out of EWR. Though I suspect VX will be able to sell a number of F seats out of EWR.

Which flts/routes is AA curtailing? Are they giving up on LAX?
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 5):
I am generally pretty skeptical about VX but I actually think VX will do pretty well out of EWR

I agree 100%. I am often skpetical of VX also but I really could see them do well out of EWR. Fares are often so high on these two routes. Very similar to EWR-DEN before Southwest went on the route.
 
ScottB
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
They aren't getting airplanes so something else is going away.

   The schedule looks like it takes the better part of four aircraft since there look to be some lengthy turns at EWR. The evening arrival at 2129 from LAX (VX166) sits on the ground until 0915 or 1300, depending on whether the red-eye turns to the 0915 or 1300 departure. The 2320 arrival from SFO is similar.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 25):
Though I suspect VX will be able to sell a number of F seats out of EWR.

I think that will be challenging given the level of loyalty among EWR-based travelers to the UA frequent flyer program.
 
usairways85
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 27):
I think that will be challenging given the level of loyalty among EWR-based travelers to the UA frequent flyer program.

True, though so many people in the NYC area pay outright for F and aren't necessarily die hard loyalists.

In the late summer/Fall I was on EWR-LAX on ~10 roundtrips and IFE options or lack thereof was evident. No wifi, many aircraft with no AC outlets, only over head monitors/no seat back TVs.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:52 pm

I wonder if we see united try to up its game and at least put PTV only aircraft on those routes. A united 757-300 is so inferior to virgin america its incredible for example but as other said lots of connections as well connecting hubs so they might not care too much. United has some 757-200s which are certainly more than adequate for the real cash paying business class customers
 
as739x
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 23):

- How does VX, which has slashed near term growth by capping the fleet for several years, come up with the aircraft capacity to offer this service?

Been to SFO lately? They have a minimum of 3 or 4 planes always sitting around during the day. This actually should help them get aircraft up moving and making money.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
OOer
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:59 pm

Quoting dwcontroller (Thread starter):
On Virgin America's web site EWR is up sale starting April 2nd. Six flights a day; three to LAX, three to SFO. Starting main cabin fares $149.00.

...and then people wonder why they have yet to post a profitable quarter. Hopefully they'll run out of money next year and we can put them out of their misery.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting dwcontroller (Thread starter):
On Virgin America's web site EWR is up sale starting April 2nd. Six flights a day; three to LAX, three to SFO. Starting main cabin fares $149.00.

That is a little over 5 cents a mile ($0.058 for SFO) for a brand new plane with one of the best inflight experiences out there. There is no way that covers the cost especially given how long these flights are and how much time time they take up
 
Jetmarc
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:49 pm

Keep in mind "starting fares" usually only mean two or three seats and probably not even for all flights... its just a marketing gimic, not an entire flight with $150 tickets.
"Sucka, I'm gonna send you out on Knuckle Airlines. Fist Class!!" ~ Mr. T
 
SANFan
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 6):
Are they getting more aircraft for this, or decreasing frequencies on other routes?
Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
They aren't getting airplanes so something else is going away.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 27):
The schedule looks like it takes the better part of four aircraft since there look to be some lengthy turns at EWR. The evening arrival at 2129 from LAX (VX166) sits on the ground until 0915 or 1300, depending on whether the red-eye turns to the 0915 or 1300 departure. The 2320 arrival from SFO is similar.


It is interesting to look at a turn-schedule. The 2 "normal" (afternoon) turns at EWR are both :55 on the ground. But the other 4 turns are RONs (~10-13 hours each) and/or long ground times -- depending on which inbounds feed which outbounds.

Of course when all you fly into an e/c station are nonstops from the left coast, it is difficult to spread out the service during the day without some long layovers. That 3-hour time difference makes things tough for schedulers.

Quoting as739x (Reply 30):
Been to SFO lately? They have a minimum of 3 or 4 planes always sitting around during the day. This actually should help them get aircraft up moving and making money


They do seem to have a lot of down time don't they? I guess with their business model and current issues, a/c sitting on the ground just might be more sensible than increasing frequency/capacity on some of their shorter w/c routes (or adding more short haul cities such as PHX or SLC...)

Perhaps by tightening up the schedules system wide, they can squeeze out the a/c time needed for these new routes, but I doubt it. It seems probable that there will still need to be some route or capacity trimming needed to make this schedule work. As stated, 6 new transcon roundtrips (with some long turns) is a LOT of a/c time!

bb
 
VCy
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:11 pm

Thank God for Virgin America & America has a quality carrier  
 
tommy767
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:36 pm

Well this is good for me since it means FARE REDUCTIONS on these routes. It's f-ing ridic that UA is charging $697 for a one way flight to LAX from EWR over the holidays, yet it's 350 over at JFK.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 15):
That said I'm sure UA will protect this with low fares, some new 739s that are coming in in 2013 and even more service. Hopefully a double EQM offer or two...

Well be be quite frank, the 739s completely suck compared to the VX 320. Not even comparable and pax don't like the 739 compared to the 757s either.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
sqsfo
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:05 pm

I have been on many UA flights and a few( 7 in total) on VX. The product offering and service onboard VX was FAR FAR FAR more superior. UA's tired and old cabins are becoming a real drag, but if the new fleets are equipped with PTV's and better AVOD systems, we could see the end of VX. If UA could reach some sort of deal with HR and labor unions, and retire the older FA's hire new ones( proficient ones, that actually give two shits about the passenger) UA can work wonders.
 
NWADTWE16
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:01 am

Great news! and this will be a huge hit..lots of Northern Jersey/NYC catchment that doesnt want JFK that can now choose something other than UA...
 
flyby519
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:11 am

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 23):
Gate space came from AA. However, where did the scarce EWR slots come from? The only equivalent assets that VX could trade to other airlines would be their JFK slots (I don't think the beyond-perimeter DCA slot is transferable), and I doubt VX would want to give any of those up when they finally seem to be getting good pricing power and yields on their JFK routes.

Any updates on this?

Inquiring minds would like to know
These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
 
phlwok
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
EWR-LAX
VX161 0915-1215 A320
VX165 1300-1555 A320
VX169 1855-2205 A320

LAX-EWR
VX162 0935-1800 A320
VX166 1305-2129 A320
VX170 2335-0759 A320

These times for the first flight each day really aren't that good. First arrival westbound doesn't even allow for a business lunch. The eastbound redeye also gets in pretty late.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:06 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 16):

The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd say the fact that they are still kicking even after losing as much as they have makes them all the more formidable.

All it shows is someone(or people) are stupid enough to keeping letting VX burn money.


and FWIW losing money doesn't make them more formidable. This isn't Air India....It will run out at some point.  
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
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STT757
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 4):
Where'd they get the slots from?
Quoting jetMarc (Reply 10):
Getting EWR slots from American.
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 12):
All it says about AA is that they are getting the gates from AA.
Quoting N62NA (Reply 22):
As noted in a prior post it's just a gate.
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 23):
Gate space came from AA. However, where did the scarce EWR slots come from?

The slots are indeed coming from AA, as are the gates. It's mentioned in the Port Authority Press release:

Quote:
Virgin America, a low-cost carrier with limited service in the New York metropolitan area, will take over aircraft slot rights at Newark Liberty from American, whose parent company is currently reorganizing under bankruptcy protection. Virgin America will have sufficient slots to offer six daily flights to Los Angeles and San Francisco starting next year. The arrangement is in accordance with a Federal Aviation Administration mandate to increase competition at Newark Liberty.

Also:

Quote:
Under the agreement, American is relinquishing three of the six gates it holds at Newark Liberty’s Terminal A. American will reduce its costs at the airport by allowing Virgin America to take over one gate and the Port Authority to control the other two for use by various carriers as needed.
http://www.panynj.gov/press-room/press-item.cfm?headLine_id=1723

Nice deal for competition at EWR. AA relinquishes three gates, two to be common use operated by the PA, and slots to VX and in return AA gets to reduce their costs. AA has shrunk significantly at EWR over the past decade, gone are LHR, SJU, BOS, BNA, RDU, STL etc.. The two common use gates will be available for other new entrants, all they need are some slots.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
SANFan
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:26 pm

Can someone clarify if the EWR slots are time-specific? Maybe this would explain the strange times and long turns of some of the VX flights...

bb
 
Flytravel
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 25):
Yes I know the EWR-SFO/LAX market is much different than PHL-SFO/LAX but if US/UA can run VX out of PHL then UA better be able to run VX out of EWR. Though I suspect VX will be able to sell a number of F seats out of EWR.


EWR
attracts a greater catchment including more high yield and more destination traffic. I wonder if this will just cannibalize VX's own PHL service, and then PHL service will be reduced to possibly just 1x daily or 2x daily SFO, like AS flying 1x daily to SEA. Since WN doesn't fly BWI-SFO nonstop, it'd be interesting if VX added 1x daily BWI-SFO as well.

[Edited 2012-12-12 14:21:52]
 
skycub
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:00 pm

So... they have yet to earn a profit flying trans-cons from LAX and SFO to major east coast cities.... so what do they do? Add yet more trans-cons from LAX and SFO to yet another east coast city.
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
usflyguy
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:05 pm

Delete Delete Delete

[Edited 2012-12-12 15:26:41]
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
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STT757
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:09 am

Quote:
Virgin America will need to dedicate four or five planes to flying the coast-to-coast route, said Cush, and has plans to add one more to its 52-aircraft fleet before April.
http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf...irgin_airlines_newark_airport.html
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
NWADTWE16
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:28 am

What is that supposed 'airline analyst' talking about with saying United only offers 'premium' seats out of EWR?
 
klwright69
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RE: EWR For Sale On Virgin America

Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:12 am

There is a lot of traffic on the route, but with the competition the fares may be unsustainable. UA will retaliate.

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