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neutrino
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SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:24 am

Great news for the MRJ. Congrats to Mitsubishi & Skywest
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-firms-deal-for-100-mrj90s-380176/

[Edited 2012-12-13 02:27:40]
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SKAirbus
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:25 am

Good news! It's one nice looking bird  
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:37 pm

Is that link working for anyone else? I can't get it to open.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:45 pm

servers at flightglobal are down for maintenance. Should be accessible soon enough.

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Goldenshield
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:00 pm

I'm pondering at just how many of them will be MRJ90s, though---if any. Based on scope for DL, AA, and (as of yet undecided) UA, the biggest that can be ordered for those is the MRJ70-ER. The maxmimum weight weights for scope would have to increase about 1,500 lbs. or so for the MRJ-90-STD to fall within scope so as to fit 76 seats with a first/E+/Economy configuration.

I guess US and AS are still on the table, though.

Based on current specs, the MRJ-70ER fits the current CRJ-700 mission model like a glove (ASE/EGE testing nonwithstanding.) However, as for the MRJ90's, the best fit is the LR model, as the ER model falls about 300NM short of current CRJ-900 mission requirements; however, the 90LR is about 8,000 lbs. over current scope limits.

[Edited 2012-12-13 06:11:25]
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ushermittwoch
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:10 pm

I'll try to get onto on of the first revenue flights, that's for sure.  
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:48 pm

So does this mean that Skywest/Expressjet are done with the CRJ? Meaning that they will not order anymore for themselves?
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:28 pm

I can't wait to see it in DL colors   It's gonna be one nice bird indeed.

Congrats to the MRJ program  
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:51 pm

This is exciting. It also implies an end customer.   

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 4):
I'm pondering at just how many of them will be MRJ90s

The weights are an interesting question. I would expect most to be MRJ90s, but that will depend on scope.


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gigneil
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:29 pm

The article does explicitly call out the MRJ90.

That being said, I am extremely interested in what colors they'll be in. I am hopeful United is close to this sort of scope agreement.

NS
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Can't wait to see these make a few appearances in St George which i am sure they will to show to employees and stuff.
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:56 pm

Well, at least now the MRJ project have a big customer, the project will see the light. Who will be the launch customer?
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 6):
So does this mean that Skywest/Expressjet are done with the CRJ? Meaning that they will not order anymore for themselves?

Between these 100 aircraft, the 16 9E CRJ-900s that are being transfered to EV, and the 40 CRJ-900s DL just ordered (which I suspect will mainly be operated by OO and EV), I doubt they'll have the need for more aircraft for quite a while. But I'm sure SkyWest, Inc. still has great ties with Bombardier and would order the CRJ-700 or -900 again for the right price. SkyWest has never been too keen on sticking with one manufacturer exclusively, operating EMB-120s alongside the CRJs for years.
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mrocktor
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:03 pm

They are officially in the game now, can't be a happy day down in Brazil (between this and the recent CRJ sale, not a happy year really...).

The trick is getting the plane approved, delivered and meeting requirements. I would count on further delays since Mitsubishi are first timers in the modern transport aircraft market - but with this big an order on the books this program is definitely surviving whatever difficulties they have with certification and EIS.
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:10 am

Quoting lollomz (Reply 11):

Well, at least now the MRJ project have a big customer, the project will see the light. Who will be the launch customer?

The project has been a go for a long time now.  
Quoting mrocktor (Reply 13):
I would count on further delays since Mitsubishi are first timers in the modern transport aircraft market

I am close to some people in MRJ program management, and while there are definitely concerns, they are pretty well on top of it. They have a long relationship with Boeing and are getting consulting help on the certification front. Not to mention that JCAB's certification requirements are perhaps more strict than the FAA or JAA in some respects and they are getting plenty of assistance on the Japanese government end as well.
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Goldenshield
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:13 am

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 13):
I would count on further delays since Mitsubishi are first timers in the modern transport aircraft market

*Ahem*


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I hear they have a great lineage of military aircraft as well...

[Edited 2012-12-13 16:41:26]
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:35 am

Can't wait to see them in DL colors! 
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:58 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 15):
I hear they have a great lineage of military aircraft as well...

Im glad you caught that  


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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:01 am

We wont see it in Delta colors with 90 seats. If they configure it as a 76 seater cause of F and Y+ then it can fly connection flights, otherwise it violates the pilots contract.
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting delta747tlv (Reply 18):
We wont see it in Delta colors with 90 seats. If they configure it as a 76 seater cause of F and Y+ then it can fly connection flights, otherwise it violates the pilots contract.

If this order is truly for MRJ90s, and MRJ90s only, I can only bet that there will be a new, snazzy SkyWest livery coming in the next 4 years---if you catch my drift.
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:46 am

I may have missed this, but is there anything to say that these must be flown in the US? SkyWest has invested overseas in a few instances and this could be setting them up for that or to sublease out.
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:49 am

Why didn't they just order ERJ-175's or 190's? These AC have been in production for several years and airlines and passengers seem to like them. Or why not order the C-Series? Also what is the possiblitity of scope clauses being relaxed to allow regional airlines fly AC up to 100 seats in the near future?
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:22 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 20):
I may have missed this, but is there anything to say that these must be flown in the US? SkyWest has invested overseas in a few instances and this could be setting them up for that or to sublease out.

Where have they invested overseas?
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:21 am

Quoting lollomz (Reply 11):
Who will be the launch customer?

I'm curious about this as well. I think that they have either NH or an affiliate on board and I think one of the other U.S. regionals (though possibly that was just me hearing about the SkyWest order before it was firmed.)
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:46 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 9):
The article does explicitly call out the MRJ90.

That being said, I am extremely interested in what colors they'll be in.

Ditto. Any hints?

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 13):
They are officially in the game now, can't be a happy day down in Brazil (between this and the recent CRJ sale, not a happy year really...).

Sadly I must agree. However, I see the E-jets making a comeback with a re-engine. I rather like the e-jets... Even if they have GE engines.  
Quoting mrocktor (Reply 13):
I would count on further delays since Mitsubishi are first timers in the modern transport aircraft market

So would I. Mitsubishi is having more than a few delays as they figure out how to do things. They're doing better than Honda though... I cannot say way, so just take it as my opinion.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 15):
*Ahem*

The last one was in 1977 IIRC. In other words, no one remembers how to do a new aircraft. Mitsubishi isn't like Northrop with a few new prototypes every year.


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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:21 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 21):
Why didn't they just order ERJ-175's or 190's? These AC have been in production for several years and airlines and passengers seem to like them. Or why not order the C-Series? Also what is the possiblitity of scope clauses being relaxed to allow regional airlines fly AC up to 100 seats in the near future?

The GTFs in the MRJs should burn less fuel than the ERJs.

Being a launch/key early customer gets you discounts. Also you are flying fuel efficient GTFs before your competitors.

C-Series is too big.

Scope causes seem set for now - most of the majors just amended or are about to.

Quoting delta747tlv (Reply 18):
We wont see it in Delta colors with 90 seats.

What airline runs 29" pitch in the USA? This will fit 76 seats quite nicely with F/E+/E.
 
EWRkid1990
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:27 am

MRJ-90 look almost identical to an E190...why invest in a brand new aircraft type when there are models currently available that are already being reliably produced?
 
bluejuice
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:14 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 15):
I hear they have a great lineage of military aircraft as well...

Indeed they do....


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An advanced 5th generation demonstrator, the ATD-X, is in development. On the civilian side, they also manufacture parts for the 777 and 787.
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:32 pm

Quoting BlueJuice (Reply 27):
On the civilian side, they also manufacture parts for the 777 and 787.

Actually, Mitsubishi has been / is a supplier in some way, shape, or form on the 737, 747, 767, 777, 787, A380, and Bombardier Global Express / Challenger 300 lines.

They are also a component specialist on the Trent 1000, PW4000 and IAE V2500 engine lines.
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:51 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 22):
Where have they invested overseas?

Trip Linhas Aereas (TRIP) and Mekong Aviation Joint Stock Co. (Air Mekong) are both international investments they have made. You could argue they are positioning themselves for additional foreign investments.
 
LOWS
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting lollomz (Reply 11):
Well, at least now the MRJ project have a big customer, the project will see the light. Who will be the launch customer?

Didn't TransStates already order 100 a few years ago...?
 
Goldenshield
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 30):
Didn't TransStates already order 100 a few years ago...?

It was 50, with an option for 50.
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting EWRkid1990 (Reply 26):
MRJ-90 look almost identical to an E190...why invest in a brand new aircraft type when there are models currently available that are already being reliably produced?

The MRJ90 is smaller than the E-190; its closest Embraer equivalent in terms of size is the E-175.
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:24 am

Quoting EWRkid1990 (Reply 26):

MRJ-90 look almost identical to an E190...why invest in a brand new aircraft type when there are models currently available that are already being reliably produced?

Fuel. The same reason DC-9's were replaced early. As noted by 1337Delta764, it is E175 sized though. But the MRJ will have a more advanced wing (I'm amazed how far laminar flow wings have come along in the last decade and how much more they have to go in the coming decade!).

Also, the MRJ is being designed to require less maintenance. For example, valves on the aircraft will have required cycle lives about 50% higher than the E-jets and lives in hours twice the E-jet components.

This is like asking why Airbus invested in the A340/A330 when there was already a MD-11. The answer is there is an obvious vulnerable market niche and Mitsubishi is going for it.

Another reason is the MRJ is being designed to be a little easier to turn the aircraft. Little things, but they should add up, such as an aft cargo bin:
http://www.mhi.co.jp/technology/review/pdf/e481/e481043.pdf

This link has a nice chart on the trend on gallons per passenger:
http://d9itxagvk5mi8.cloudfront.net/...ent/uploads/2011/10/RJ-Summary.pdf

Either an airline keeps ahead of that curve, or they won't be profitable.

Quoting ADent (Reply 25):
This will fit 76 seats quite nicely with F/E+/E.

Exactly.

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Newark727
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:52 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):


Another reason is the MRJ is being designed to be a little easier to turn the aircraft. Little things, but they should add up, such as an aft cargo bin:

This is an interesting feature, I can't think of too many planes of this size that do it, though I guess the Q400 and ATR-72 are kind of in the ballpark. I guess it makes the loading/unloading easier at the expense of a longer plane physically?

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how the MRJ shakes out, I'm just looking forward to spotting a regional aircraft that isn't a CRJ or E-jet.
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:56 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 34):
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how the MRJ shakes out, I'm just looking forward to spotting a regional aircraft that isn't a CRJ or E-jet.

I wonder which airlines OO will contract the MRJ out to. UA? DL? Maybe AA or US?

Anyone got any livery sketches of the MRJ yet?
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:06 am

Wouldn't only having an aft cargo bin present weight and balance issues? Especially when the plane is being offloaded?
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:16 am

Quoting cotparampguy (Reply 36):

Wouldn't only having an aft cargo bin present weight and balance issues? Especially when the plane is being offloaded?

Actually, that's not usually an issue since the bags will be offloaded at close to, or more than, the same rate that passengers would be disembarking. Also, weight and balance and loading/unloading wouldn't be any different than what they do now with any of their aircraft.
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:35 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 34):
This is an interesting feature, I can't think of too many planes of this size that do it,

The CRJ-900 and 1000 would be two examples, though they actually have small forward bins for the valet bags, as well. The rear bins are nice for rampers since we can stand up in them, as opposed to the tiny underfloor pits on the E-Jets and the DC-9 family and they're easy to stack.
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:39 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 35):
I wonder which airlines OO will contract the MRJ out to. UA? DL?

Now that the new contract is ratified, I'd strongly suspect at least some of these will be in UA colors with 76 seats unless OO is planning something bigger with them. The delivery timeline is just about perfectly lined up with the scope changes in the new UA contract.
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:06 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 35):
I wonder which airlines OO will contract the MRJ out to. UA? DL? Maybe AA or US?

US wants to expand the OO flying from what it is now to a much bigger presence through their system. This may accelerate this if a deal can be worked.
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:20 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 34):
I guess it makes the loading/unloading easier at the expense of a longer plane physically?

   That adds weight versus underfloor cargo area but with less aerodynamic drag. It is actually a compromise to improve longer missions *and* turn time (which helps all mission economics). One hasn't seen it in this size of aircraft as with prior aluminum the weight penalty was too high. I wonder how much of the aft cargo bin is due to the initial work with CFRP (where the weight penalty would have been less).

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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:23 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41):

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 34):
I guess it makes the loading/unloading easier at the expense of a longer plane physically?

   That adds weight versus underfloor cargo area but with less aerodynamic drag. It is actually a compromise to improve longer missions *and* turn time (which helps all mission economics). One hasn't seen it in this size of aircraft as with prior aluminum the weight penalty was too high. I wonder how much of the aft cargo bin is due to the initial work with CFRP (where the weight penalty would have been less).

Lightsaber

The weight stays about the same but it reduces drag.
The weight stays the same because the MRJ's underfloor will be much narrower. The aluminum you save there would be used in the back for the aft cargo bin.

The only efficiency difference is the drag profile, which puts the MRJ at an advantage over the Ejets.

On top of easier loading/unloading, there are two advantages. The bin will be more square, thus allowing for more efficient loading compared to a half-circle. The other advantage is that there is less wasted space between the usable cabin and the bulkhead and the bulkhead can also be placed further aft, closer to the horizontal stabiliser.

It is also much easier for maintenance to access ducting and systems installed on the underfloor than having to remove cabin and cargo trim panels everytime they need to access something.
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:50 am

Triple digit A320 and 737 orders may be nice for the manufacturers, but from an enthusiast's standpoint this order is one of the most exciting orders in a long time. I hope many European carriers will follow the example. What a beautiful aircraft!

Now if only EasyJet committed to the C-Series...
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:43 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 4):
Based on current specs, the MRJ-70ER fits the current CRJ-700 mission model like a glove (ASE/EGE testing nonwithstanding.)

This interests me. Does anyone know if Skywest will attempt to certify the MRJ for flying into ASE? Nominally, it could have better field performance than the CRJ-700 (though no idea how that would compare at 7900'ASL). The MRJ's wingspan is just slightly larger, by 20cm, than the maximum permitted at ASE.

-Rampart
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 44):
The MRJ's wingspan is just slightly larger, by 20cm, than the maximum permitted at ASE.

I'm sure they can apply with the city for an exemption. I doubt anyone's going to cry foul over an additional 8 inches of wingspan since the plane will offer a better onboard experience, and the new engines are touted to be quieter than the already quiet CF-34s.
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rampart
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:34 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 45):
I'm sure they can apply with the city for an exemption. I doubt anyone's going to cry foul over an additional 8 inches of wingspan since the plane will offer a better onboard experience, and the new engines are touted to be quieter than the already quiet CF-34s.

You don't know Aspen.  

The 95ft wingspan rule for ASE is already an exemption for the FAA. See page 9 here: http://www.aspenpitkin.com/Portals/0...county/countycode/Pitkinco10tx.pdf
Has to do with taxiway-runway separation being below standard. See page 25 here (2003 Master Plan):
http://www.aspenairport.com/master_p...0and%20Facility%20Requirements.pdf

Quote:
"Because the runway/taxiway separation cannot be increased the FAA will not allow the wingspan restriction to be lifted unless the currently safety policies are changed, which is considered to be highly improbable. Historic review of FAA safety policies indicates that they have become more restrictive over the years, not less restrictive."


-Rampart
 
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 46):
The 95ft wingspan rule for ASE is already an exemption for the FAA. See page 9 here:

Ah, well, then it's like the old SGU. Well, at least I now know who to properly blame.

That said, I doubt that OO is going to dump their entire fleet of CR7 once the order of MRjs is filled.
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RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 47):
That said, I doubt that OO is going to dump their entire fleet of CR7 once the order of MRjs is filled.

   My understanding is that one reason (or at least helpful coincidence) NW and UA kept the BAe146 longer was to be able to continue to fly into ASE until something else could be certified. And that was the CR7. Some early F9/Republic thread talked about efforts in getting the E170 certified, which was not accomplished, I'm not sure why.
 
apodino
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Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: SkyWest Firms Deal For 100 MRJ90s

Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:43 pm

The one question about this order that I would have would be that is Skywest going to be able to find flying for all these new birds? From a fuel and MX standpoint it is going to make a bit a little more competitive, but as the guys move up the seniority list, Labor is not going to get cheaper, and this is the big thing that killed Comair, is killing Pinnacle and Air Wisconsin, and years ago also killed ACA. Remember that Delta has a firm order for new CRJ's to replace CRJ-200's, so it does not appear that Delta would want this flying. And are these new birds going to come online soon enough for new AA flying now that the AA pilots actually have a contract now?

The other thing to note that if the AA/US merger actually happens, there are only going to be three majors looking for regional lift. And with limiting scope clauses at all of them...there is only so much flying that is available to these regionals.

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