Valorien
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Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:47 pm

Qatar Airways said a 787 jet just handed over by Boeing developed a problem similar to one that forced a United aircraft to make an emergency landing with a faulty generator.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...with-same-fault-as-united-jet.html
 
kl911
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:55 pm

Oops, and Qatar is not happy at all:

quote:

“These problems are unacceptable because this aircraft has been flying for the last 14 months,” Al Baker said in an interview. “They have to get their act together very fast because we at Qatar Airways will not accept any more defects.”

and

“Two aircraft having the same problem -- the same major problem -- so quickly is a cause of concern,” Al Baker said, adding that Doha-based Qatar Air will ask Boeing to cover its losses. “Definitely we will demand compensation. We are not buying airplanes from them to put in a museum.”


He does have a point though.
 
babybus
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:33 pm

I like his style.

However, I saw the 787 land this morning. I thought they only had one, or maybe it was a 777. It's so hard to spot the difference.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
migair54
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
He does have a point though.

He does, but I think it´s not necessary to make all of this public but to talk to boeing internally and deal with the problem.

EK and QR love to make a show about everything, United must have to say more about this and we don´t see or listen the CEO making a show every opportunity he has.

Anyway, let´s hope they work out the issue and solve the problem asap, otherwise this might have a big impact on the fleet of B787 flying around.
 
ETinCaribe
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:40 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
EK and QR love to make a show about everything, United must have to say more about this and we don´t see or listen the CEO making a show every opportunity he has.

I would say Al Baker is in a league of his own, no one gets close to him in ranting and publicly voicing his opinion (mostly negative in my view).

I guess "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" translates well into Arabic  
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
EK and QR love to make a show about everything

QR and AI. EK is much mellower than the other two.

Lightsaber
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migair54
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
QR and AI. EK is much mellower than the other two.

Well, they make quite a lot of noise with the delays of the A380 and with the A-350, I must said that they also praise the planes if they perform well, but I can´t remember last time QR CEO said something positive B787 delays and problems, NDIA delays... lately he has very few happy moments... hehehehehehe
 
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Stitch
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 6):
Well, (EK) make quite a lot of noise with the delays of the A380 and with the A-350, I must said that they also praise the planes if they perform well, but I can´t remember last time QR CEO said something positive B787 delays and problems, NDIA delays... lately he has very few happy moments... hehehehehehe

From the same article:

Quote:
Still, the performance of 787s delivered has been “quite adequate,” Al Baker said, and Qatar Air has seen no evidence of a separate fuel-leak problem that led the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration to order more regular inspections.

“Boeing makes fine airplanes,” he said. “We hope we will always work with them as long as they satisfy our requirements.”

 
 
hb88
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:19 pm

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 4):
I would say Al Baker is in a league of his own, no one gets close to him in ranting and publicly voicing his opinion (mostly negative in my view).

I have no problem with him ranting. If you were spending the cash that QR do on aircraft, would you not be upset at defects/delays? Remember any issue like this directly affects their scheduling and profitability.

My view, is good for him. Whether it's Airbus or Boeing on the sharp end of his stick, it focusses people attention.
 
max550
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
However, I saw the 787 land this morning. I thought they only had one, or maybe it was a 777. It's so hard to spot the difference.

Airfleets.net shows 3 in their fleet with the most recent one being delivered December 7th. I'm guessing that's the aircraft in question.

Shouldn't be too hard to spot the difference, just look for the chevrons on the engines, 4 wheel vs. 6 wheel MLG, round APU outlet vs. square on the 777, or the Dreamliner logo on the lower fuselage between the wing and tail.

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Tan Flyr
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:36 pm

While he may have a valid point, and a right to publicly voice his displeasure...that kind of rhetoric is usually for political comsumption of some sort or another.

Issues ,such as a faulty generator, are usually taken care of in a more private business manner.

Just wondering, who builds these Generators for Boeing? Presuming it is an outside vendor, Boeing DOES have an issue with them. Same as if Honda bought Alternators from Delco and had an issue..not exactly Honda's fault..the final responsibility for a manufacturing defect would be Delco ( in this example)
 
Quokkas
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:37 pm

I don't know whether QR and EK "like to make a show" or whether the media like to build it up in order to sell their product. I suppose the alternative would be for Al Baker and Tim Clark to refuse to give any interviews. I wonder how that might be interpreted.

From the linked article;

"the performance of 787s delivered has been “quite adequate,”" and

“Boeing makes fine airplanes,”

Yes, Al Baker is understandably annoyed that an aircraft has had to be taken out of service (and that costs money) on top of upgrade program on the Airbus fleet caused by delivery delays, but he isn't threatening to cancel any orders at this stage.

I guess he can consider the airline lucky that the fault was discovered on a delivery flight and not during commercial operations.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:47 pm

All I can say is that I'm glad QR didn't receive early models of the A380!!
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
 
mham001
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 11):
Just wondering, who builds these Generators for Boeing?

This is a good question. And has the UAL plane returned?
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:50 pm

So help me........how long does it take to change a generator ? Piddling stuff in my view unless there is there is something in the system that is failing to protect the generators.
 
CM
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 11):
Who builds these Generators for Boeing?

The generators are built by Hamilton Sundstrand. Comments in the thread about the UA generator failure seemed to indicate the real issue may be in one of the airplanes power panels rather than the generator itself. In both the UA diversion and now this one, the wait for parts, the use of a Boeing AOG team and the several days needed to get the airplane back into service all point to a more complex repair and parts which are not normally held in inventory by the operator. This would square up with a power panel issue better than a generator fault. The power panels are made by Zodiac Aerospace.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 11):
Just wondering, who builds these Generators for Boeing?

Hamilton Sundstrand (now UTC Aerospace Systems):
http://www.hamiltonsundstrand.com/St...%20Systems_Slip%20sheet%202011.pdf

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 11):
Presuming it is an outside vendor, Boeing DOES have an issue with them.

That assumes that the reason the generator failed is a problem with the manufacture of the generator...that may or may not be true. The power feeders are almost certainly someone else (Labinal?), I don't know who does the generator control units, the power panels are Thales, etc., etc. Just because a component died doesn't mean the guys who built that component are the ones who killed it.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 14):
And has the UAL plane returned?

Yes.

Tom.
 
migair54
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 13):
All I can say is that I'm glad QR didn't receive early models of the A380!!

For us it could have been good, soooo many hours of talking and discussing.... Bad for Airbus... heheheheheheh.....

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 15):
So help me........how long does it take to change a generator ? Piddling stuff in my view unless there is there is something in the system that is failing to protect the generators.

They have to find out if it´s the generator or some snag with the system, changing a generator doesn´t take much time.
 
CM
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 17):
the power panels are Thales

Hmmm... Not sure why I was thinking Zodiac. Perhaps they make some of the internals. At any rate, I will defer to you on this one, Tom.
 
capri
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:04 pm

the difference between US airlines and the rest is that they get a huge discount other airlines don't, this is why US airlines don't complain much publicly about boeing mishaps
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:19 pm

Quoting CM (Reply 19):
Hmmm... Not sure why I was thinking Zodiac. Perhaps they make some of the internals.

Zodiac does the contactors and switchgear inside the panels. So it's a Thales/Zodiac joint thing. I may have that reversed though...it might be Zodiac's panel with Thales's bits inside. Either way, they're both involved.

Quoting capri (Reply 20):
the difference between US airlines and the rest is that they get a huge discount other airlines don't

No, they don't. That hasn't been true since the 90's.

Tom.
 
migair54
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting capri (Reply 19):
the difference between US airlines and the rest is that they get a huge discount other airlines don't, this is why US airlines don't complain much publicly about boeing mishaps

Not true, all the airlines bargain the prices of the planes and the discounts depends on many many factors, but i´m sure QR got a good price for the B787 and not much more expensive than United.

I´m sure they do complain, but not in the media, the same compensation QR will have United can get without making so much noise and talking directly with Boeing, they are all business men and they all talk the same language, and I´m pretty sure you can even get more if you do under the table, without messing up and pissing off people than doing the show....
 
andrew50
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:28 pm

If I am not mistaken United must still be having some issues with their 787's. UA 1430 to LAX was replaced by a T7 yesterday, and UA 1433 to SFO was also replaced by a T7 on Tuesday evening, that flight was running over 2 hours late.
 
sweair
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:37 pm

UAs small fleet of three leave no spare capacity, they will take 2 more before 1 January, a little more wiggle room. ANAs 16 fleet seems to do ok, but they have a head start on UA..
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
However, I saw the 787 land this morning. I thought they only had one, or maybe it was a 777. It's so hard to spot the difference.
Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
quote:

“These problems are unacceptable because this aircraft has been flying for the last 14 months,” Al Baker said in an interview. “They have to get their act together very fast because we at Qatar Airways will not accept any more defects.”

and

“Two aircraft having the same problem -- the same major problem -- so quickly is a cause of concern,” Al Baker said, adding that Doha-based Qatar Air will ask Boeing to cover its losses. “Definitely we will demand compensation. We are not buying airplanes from them to put in a museum.”
Quoting migair54 (Reply 6):
but I can´t remember last time QR CEO said something positive B787 delays and problems, NDIA delays...
Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
From the same article:

Quote:Still, the performance of 787s delivered has been “quite adequate,” Al Baker said, and Qatar Air has seen no evidence of a separate fuel-leak problem that led the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration to order more regular inspections.

“Boeing makes fine airplanes,” he said. “We hope we will always work with them as long as they satisfy our requirements.”

Correct.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 16):
the power panels are Thales

Isn't that the same company that made the faulty pitiot tubes for the A-330/-340?
 
UALWN
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 24):
Isn't that the same company that made the faulty pitiot tubes for the A-330/-340?

The pitot tubes were not faulty: they were within specs. The specs, however, were not stringent enough.
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maxter
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 10):
Just wondering, who builds these Generators for Boeing? Presuming it is an outside vendor, Boeing DOES have an issue with them. Same as if Honda bought Alternators from Delco and had an issue..not exactly Honda's fault..the final responsibility for a manufacturing defect would be Delco ( in this example)

This means squat to the customer. The ultimate responsibility lies with Boeing.
Megaphone diplomacy is never good for either party though... with that I will agree.
maxter
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting andrew50 (Reply 22):
If I am not mistaken United must still be having some issues with their 787's. UA 1430 to LAX was replaced by a T7 yesterday, and UA 1433 to SFO was also replaced by a T7 on Tuesday evening, that flight was running over 2 hours late.

All three are currently scheduled to be in service tomorrow.
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:17 am

Reading elsewhere that these panels are the same one that caused ZA0002 grief. Not saying there is a fire danger, just that these seem to be critical components that are not fully sorted out yet.
 
aklrno
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:15 am

There was an interesting logical leap here. First it was a bad generator, then someone said maybe it was a switch panel fault, and someone jumped back to the ZA002 panel problem (which was caused by a foreign object in the switch gear). Now we have critical problems not sorted out.

Maybe we know next to nothing other than there was an electrical problem and the crew acted in a very conservative manner due to it being a new aircraft. We may actually know even less than that because the OP said it was a problem "similar" to the UA problem, and we on a.net don't know for sure what that problem was.

I can only see two facts: 2 787s required service to electrical components. The rest is at the level of junior high school social rumors.

If I bought a new car I would be annoyed if a major part failed in the first few weeks, even if it was covered by the warranty. Still, it happen, even with very expensive cars. In the case of cars, it is actually more common in exotics because of the low production rate. It can take a long time for problems to surface in small numbers.

If I owned an airline, and I was really irked over these things, I would never buy an airplane much below ln 100. Of course I'd then be sacrificing any additional profits that might come from a more efficient machine. Life is a gamble.

I'm also a bit annoyed at the thread title. To me, a grounded aircraft is one whose entire type is taken out of service for a critical problem to them all. What we seem to have here is a broken airplane that is too new to be broken. I'd be angry at my Lexus dealer if that happened to my car, but he is kind enough to give me a full tank of gas after a warranty repair or recall. I get over it.
 
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Dan23
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:20 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 28):

Was the fire issue with ZA002 not software or control system based?

As part of the changes made, to rectify that issue, were there also design changes made to the panels?
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seabosdca
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:24 am

Quoting Dan23 (Reply 30):
Was the fire issue with ZA002 not software or control system based?

No, it was a short caused by a metal tool (wrench?) left in the panel.
 
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kanban
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:32 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 31):
No, it was a short caused by a metal tool (wrench?) left in the panel.

Don't believe the culprit was ever identified... other than metallic FOD...more likely a nut or washer that was vaporized in the arching. with all the rework that had been going on it was more than likely fastener related.
 
johnclipper
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:33 am

Interesting...must be A7-BCA. I flew A7-BCB yesterday from DOH to DXB and A7-BCL was used on an earlier DXB run. A7-BCA was parked at maintenance area Thursday morning.
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 31):
No, it was a short caused by a metal tool (wrench?) left in the panel.

Googling tells me it was attributed to be 'most likely' a washer that was destroyed by arcing. I am sure someone else has a better answer. So not a definitive answer. Changes were made to the panel and the software. I don't thing the severity of the event was anything like ZA002, but a generator is a pretty well understood technology these days, and it doesn't require a major electrical control component to be swapped out to replace one.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting Dan23 (Reply 30):
Was the fire issue with ZA002 not software or control system based?
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 31):
No, it was a short caused by a metal tool (wrench?) left in the panel.

The answer to the above is "Yes." Aviation issues almost never have only one cause. Read the posts by CM on this thread for more details:
United 787 Ship 902 Diverted Enroute IAH-EWR (by Transpac787 Dec 4 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting Dan23 (Reply 30):
As part of the changes made, to rectify that issue, were there also design changes made to the panels?

Yes. They were made more FOD resistant and the software was changed to more gracefully handle a similar occurrence.

Tom.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:10 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
Oops, and Qatar is not happy at all:

I didn't suppose Mr. AB would be very happy about it at all. He's world-famous for being unhappy most of the time.

Quoting hb88 (Reply 8):
I have no problem with him ranting.

I do. It's very unprofessional. He has every right to be very upset at Boeing. He can word it better and keep it private. The public does not need to see the dirty laundry.
-Doc Lightning-

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7BOEING7
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:29 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 29):
If I owned an airline, and I was really irked over these things, I would never buy an airplane much below ln 100

I agree totally. Having been involved with the "birth" of many new models, I always felt I would get in line a year or two down the line.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:55 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
I do. It's very unprofessional. He has every right to be very upset at Boeing. He can word it better and keep it private. The public does not need to see the dirty laundry.

Like it or not, you have to agree the man is a genius when it come to putting pressure on companies. This is a perfect example.
Beauty is watching a 787 bank to make a short final. Bliss is watching that 787 with a good beer. Nirvana is all of that with a beautiful woman on your side.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:31 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 38):
Like it or not, you have to agree the man is a genius when it come to putting pressure on companies. This is a perfect example.

I have seen no evidence to suggest that his ranting in any way improves matters.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Braybuddy
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:16 am

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 4):
I would say Al Baker is in a league of his own, no one gets close to him in ranting and publicly voicing his opinion (mostly negative in my view).

How long before someone dubs a clip of "Downfall?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lui0-4IW64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuG1SVLvM6Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiSgy-3KWMk

 
 
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Qatara340
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:50 am

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 33):
Interesting...must be A7-BCA. I flew A7-BCB yesterday from DOH to DXB and A7-BCL was used on an earlier DXB run. A7-BCA was parked at maintenance area Thursday morning.

I just flew A7-BCB yesterday so its not that.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
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Qatara340
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:09 am

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 33):

We were on the same flight! Which seat were u sitting at?
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
johnclipper
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:47 pm

Was on QR 106 - 1K

filler

filler
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B777LRF
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 37):
I agree totally. Having been involved with the "birth" of many new models, I always felt I would get in line a year or two down the line.

+1.

As the old saying goes: "Never buy the A model of anything". The original 747 had engines that were ... problematic. Same on the L-1011. The Q400 was a error message disaster at first, and if not that then faulty door sensors. The A320-100 didn't last long, and the first A380s were suffering from a bad case of obesity.

Much better to have someone else iron out the quirks before getting onboard with a new product.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:20 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 38):
Like it or not, you have to agree the man is a genius when it come to putting pressure on companies. This is a perfect example.

I have seen no evidence to suggest that his ranting in any way improves matters.

Well, his ranting managed to get Boeing to do their first commercial flying demonstration at an airshow in decades...whether that "improves matters" is open for debate, but it obviously managed to get Boeing to do something they wouldn't normally do.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 44):
The original 747 had engines that were ... problematic.

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

Tom.
 
JHCRJ700
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
It's so hard to spot the difference

Not really if your unsure, the landing gear, cockpit section, or simply the lights are easy ways to tell the differences.
RUSH
 
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Revelation
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:37 pm

Quoting maxter (Reply 26):
Megaphone diplomacy is never good for either party though... with that I will agree.

Diplomacy happens when two parties are on equal footing.

Here we have one party that pays another, something I think is quite different.

I know my company's customers are far from diplomatic when we fail to deliver what they pay for.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 29):
There was an interesting logical leap here. First it was a bad generator, then someone said maybe it was a switch panel fault, and someone jumped back to the ZA002 panel problem (which was caused by a foreign object in the switch gear). Now we have critical problems not sorted out.

I don't see that extra leap being taken.

Here it was said that there was a generator failure and that such failures could happen due to components other than the generator (including the panel). I don't see where anyone linked the UA incident to ZA002, other than discussing that indeed ZA002 did happen and the most likely cause was FOD due to a loose washer.
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RickNRoll
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:08 pm

Is the real issue that the new technology power used in the 787, with a lot of high voltage DC, is going to need more attention to control and management than Boeing anticipated.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 38):
Like it or not, you have to agree the man is a genius when it come to putting pressure on companies. This is a perfect example.

He gets what he wants in the very short term, but that kind of behavior compromises relationships. Given the way he treats Boeing (and Airbus) management, if both NH and QR have an urgent need, which do you think is going to get attention first?