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chrisnh
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BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:57 am

Three 744s and a 777 each day, to complement AA's twin 757s and a Virgin A340. That's a lot of seats. I'm wondering whether BA senses that AA may drop the route and they are planning to back-fill lost capacity. AA cut BOS from a 'focus city' long ago, but even so...I think they will hold onto the London route. Which, all else being equal, means a big jump in capacity next year.

That's pretty bullish given that even Chuckles the Clown is saying a big recession is coming.

[Edited 2012-12-13 18:58:23]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:59 am

What do you think BA would use as an equivalent once the 744 is gone? Four 77W's?
-Doc Lightning-

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MAH4546
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:03 am

AA's not dropping the route.

AA is taking over an MIALHR frequency from BA this summer; BA is taking over an AA BOSLHR frequency from BA this summer. Quite simple.

And how does BA sense anything about what AA does? The trans-Atlantic operations are one, single combined merged entity. Everything AA does, BA does with it - and that includes capacity planning.

AA's 75L is perfect for the market in the winter months when demand drops like a rock between Boston and Europe. Orlando is probably the only major U.S.-EU market that more seasonal demand flux as Boston.

[Edited 2012-12-13 19:05:30]
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chrisnh
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:06 am

So you're saying that AA is going single-daily 757, and between the 2 carriers there will still be 5 flights?

I do like trading a 744 for a 757, though.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:08 am

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 3):

So you're saying that AA is going single-daily 757, and between the 2 carriers there will still be 5 flights?

I do like trading a 744 for a 757, though.


AA traditionally operates 3x daily during the summer.
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SCQ83
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:10 am

Quoting chrisnh (Thread starter):
Three 744s and a 777 each day, to complement AA's twin 757s and a Virgin A340.

What about DL daily B767 flight?

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 2):
AA's 75L is perfect for the market in the winter months when demand drops like a rock between Boston and Europe. Orlando is probably the only major U.S.-EU market that more seasonal demand flux as Boston.

Umm are you sure? I would be interested to see some data. To my knowledge the only TATL seasonal services are BOS-CDG with both AA and DL and SNN-BOS with EI. While many routes might have lower capacity in winter (as in many TATL routes by the way), they still fly during winter (and for instance BA still sends 3x daily with 777/747, LH still sends their 747 in winter, etc.).

That includes AZ from FCO (yet they fly seasonal to EWR, LAX and ORD), FI from KEF (and they also fly seasonal only to IAD, MSP or YYZ) or VS from LHR (which to ORD and YVR are only in summer).
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:39 am

Don't forget the daily 767 DL flight as well ... started as slot handover when the JV between AA and BA was approved for transatlantic flights.

Why would anyone fly AA when their joint venture partner has more flights, better service, on better planes?
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:44 am

Quoting AirBuffalo (Reply 6):
Why would anyone fly AA when their joint venture partner has more flights, better service, on better planes?

Whether they do or not makes no difference to AA/BA.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:26 am

Quoting AirBuffalo (Reply 6):
Why would anyone fly AA when their joint venture partner has more flights, better service, on better planes?

Price, better connection options in BOS or LHR, most pax don't know the difference or don't care, etc.

Flight 108 has been mostly running more than 90% full this month, with solid bookings through the end of the year (though BA's 744 is disappearing between the 23rd and 31st). So it looks like a lot of people would fly AA despite BA's larger/better/superior presence/service.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:45 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):
Umm are you sure?

Yes, I'm sure. I'm not talking about capacity - O&D between. BOS and Europe drops significantly during the summer.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):
That includes AZ from FCO (yet they fly seasonal to EWR, LAX and ORD),

The only year round U.S. service for AZ is JFK and MIA. BOS is seasonal just like the rest.
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 8):
Price, better connection options in BOS or LHR, most pax don't know the difference or don't care, etc.

Flight 108 has been mostly running more than 90% full this month, with solid bookings through the end of the year (though BA's 744 is disappearing between the 23rd and 31st). So it looks like a lot of people would fly AA despite BA's larger/better/superior presence/service.

Exactly, AA, BA or IB will sell you any of the flights interchangeably in their respective websites (just with the "operated by") so likely many people will not even notice whether they are buying AA or BA. And AA's flight has quite a good schedule arriving to LHR at 7 AM (and leaving Boston at 7.20 PM), good to connect with European destinations (even if you have to change from T3 to T5), just in case BA's BOS-LHR at 6 PM (that arrives at 5 AM) is too early.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 9):
Yes, I'm sure. I'm not talking about capacity - O&D between. BOS and Europe drops significantly during the summer.

I am surprised... in summer there is a lot of additional traffic (believe it or not New England is quite a popular place for European tourists... and they are not visiting in January for obvious reasons), VFR to the likes of UK, Ireland, Italy or Portugal (just see additional Aer Lingus flights, for instance), and New England/BOS has the highest rates of international travel in the US (wealthy and educated region, so locals are more likely to travel to Europe... specially in summer). Probably seminar/student/corporate traffic declines but still I would have thought it would be offset with the additional summer traffic (and additional "leisure" services such as the BOS-CDG or BOS-SNN would be on that line).

Again I would be happy to see some figures.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 2):
AA's 75L is perfect for the market in the winter months when demand drops like a rock between Boston and Europe. Orlando is probably the only major U.S.-EU market that more seasonal demand flux as Boston.

I respect a lot of what you have to say when it comes to internal happenings at AA. However, I think your'e a little off base with this one. The fact that BA is adding a 4th flight AND AA is keeping their flights contradicts your claim that BOS is a seasonally fluctuating market like MCO. Unless I'm misunderstanding something this isn't a summer only addition, correct? While MIA is a popular place for Europeans, the ONLY reason MIA has the service it does to LHR - 3x BA and 2x AA is due in part to AA's mega hub status at MIA and BA's mega hub @ LHR. BOS isn't even a focus city, let alone a hub for AA and we have 3x daily (7x daily with BA's flights). As for BOS the only airline that operates seasonally into BOS is AZ (and they only curt service for like 1 month - February). Every other airline maintains daily flights through the winter and most operate double daily in summer.

And while I realize it's not a transatlantic route, if the BOS market was so seasonal would we be seeing BOS-NRT daily all year round?

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 9):
Yes, I'm sure. I'm not talking about capacity - O&D between. BOS and Europe drops significantly during the summer.

Summer is actually the busiest time a year for BOS-Europe. Now i'm truly convinced you don't know what you're talking about in regards to the BOS market.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 8):
Price, better connection options in BOS or LHR, most pax don't know the difference or don't care, etc.

I hear this alot on these forums and while I tend to agree is most cases I think that a passenger would notice a difference between crossing in a 757 vs. a 747. Also the service and inflight experience on BA vs AA would also probably be noticable as well.
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:42 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 12):
Now i'm truly convinced you don't know what you're talking about in regards to the BOS market.

I'm pretty sure he meant winter:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 2):
AA's 75L is perfect for the market in the winter months when demand drops like a rock between Boston and Europe.
 
jcarv
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:03 pm

I've been told AA is dropping LHR completely but keeping seasonal CDG. That was word of mouth.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 13):
Summer is actually the busiest time a year for BOS-Europe. Now i'm truly convinced you don't know what you're talking about in regards to the BOS market.

I'm talking about winter, my error.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 13):
The fact that BA is adding a 4th flight AND AA is keeping their flights contradicts your claim that BOS is a seasonally fluctuating market like MCO

That's simply because AA hasn't updated schedules yet. The current plan is for AA to reduce BOSLHR by one daily RT next summer, and use the BA 744 capacity to replace it. These changes are currently not reflected in schedules.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 13):
Unless I'm misunderstanding something this isn't a summer only addition, correct?

It is a summer-only addition.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 13):
While MIA is a popular place for Europeans, the ONLY reason MIA has the service it does to LHR - 3x BA and 2x AA is due in part to AA's mega hub status at MIA and BA's mega hub @ LHR.

MIALHR is a larger local market than BOSLHR, albeit not by much. MIALHR and BOSLHR are both around 700 PDEW. MIALHR demand is quite consistent year-round, but BOSLHR demand drops quite a bit in the winter months outside of December and picks up dramaticlly in the summer. MIA is also a larger market to just about every major European gateway city than Boston - Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Rome, Brussels, Moscow, etc. - except Dublin, Shannon and Manchester. Further, VS flies MIALHR, too.

Miami is actually quite underserved to Europe comparing capacity to demand - but a lot of the large markets like Amsterdam, Copenhagen and Paris are simply low-yielding. MIA-Europe is a mixed bag, though, because then there are markets like Milan, Moscow, Zurich and London which have high fares and robust premium demand.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 13):
And while I realize it's not a transatlantic route, if the BOS market was so seasonal would we be seeing BOS-NRT daily all year round?

What does BOSNRT have to do with BOS-Europe?

U.S.-Asia market in general does not have the great seasonal flux that U.S.-Europe has. Demand is a lot more consistent year-round.

[Edited 2012-12-14 13:07:41]
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting jcarv (Reply 16):
I've been told AA is dropping LHR completely but keeping seasonal CDG. That was word of mouth.

That makes sense. Ever since the 777s went away I've felt that AA flew the route more as a use-it-or-lose-it placeholder than a route they really wanted and needed. Their focus on JFK explains that. AA and UA seem to generally see Boston as a necessary evil, missing the point that the BOS metro area is huge and economically healthy. As though the 'northeast' means 'New York' and nothing else.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:16 pm

Is there a possibility in the future that maybe during peak periods such as the summer months both BA and AA could use Gatwick for some seasonal flights to destinations in the USA. With BA looking for expansion eastwards this could ease pressure on slots during the peak periods. O&D is heavier in summer and maybe at Christmas time. Such traffic is less fussed about which London Airport it arrives at. BA already serve Las Vegas, Orlando and Tampa all year round from Gatwick.

V
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 19):

I agree with you on that Chris.
 
clrd4t8koff
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:15 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 18):
That's simply because AA hasn't updated schedules yet. The current plan is for AA to reduce BOSLHR by one daily RT next summer, and use the BA 744 capacity to replace it. These changes are currently not reflected in schedules.

Even with AA's reduction of 1 757, BA picking that up with a 747 not only increases capacity, but still puts BOS-LHR ahead of MIA with 6x daily between AA & BA compared to MIA's 4x daily between the two. Add in the fact that BOS also has VS 1x daily and DL 1x daily you have 8x BOS-LHR and 5x MIA-LHR. I don't think I need to provide anymore data to suggest that BOS-LHR and Europe overall is a much larger market.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 18):
MIALHR is a larger local market than BOSLHR, albeit not by much. MIALHR and BOSLHR are both around 700 PDEW. MIALHR demand is quite consistent year-round, but BOSLHR demand drops quite a bit in the winter months outside of December and picks up dramaticlly in the summer. MIA is also a larger market to just about every major European gateway city than Boston - Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Rome, Brussels, Moscow, etc. - except Dublin, Shannon and Manchester. Further, VS flies MIALHR, too.

Miami is actually quite underserved to Europe comparing capacity to demand - but a lot of the large markets like Amsterdam, Copenhagen and Paris are simply low-yielding. MIA-Europe is a mixed bag, though, because then there are markets like Milan, Moscow, Zurich and London which have high fares and robust premium demand.

I think I've already proved you wrong that BOS-LHR is the larger market. IF you have concrete data and a link to that that shows concrete passenger stats, please provide it and prove me wrong.

Even in the winter months BOS still maintains 3X daily BA BOS-LHR, 2x AA, 1X VS, 1X DL. Take away even AA's and we're still ahead of MIA's 4X (2 BA, 2 AA) in the winter months. BOS-FRA is equal to MIA-FRA in the winter. MIA-AMS is a market that gets dropped and added so quick who can keep up with it, yet BOS-AMS maintains double daily DL year round. MIA-BRU and BOS-BRU isn't served so no point comparing the two. MIA-Moscow is a measly 2x per week. Boston also maintains the following European service that MIA doesn't:
**KEF
**DUB
**SNN
**PDL



I'm not here to argue with you, I'm here to prove to you that your knowledge of the BOS market is off and isn't the seasonal market you claim it to be. BOS is, and will always be a much large business market than MIA.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 22):
I think I've already proved you wrong that BOS-LHR is the larger market. IF you have concrete data and a link to that that shows concrete passenger stats, please provide it and prove me wrong.

I have MIDT O&D passenger data.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 22):
Even in the winter months BOS still maintains 3X daily BA BOS-LHR, 2x AA, 1X VS, 1X DL. Take away even AA's and we're still ahead of MIA's 4X (2 BA, 2 AA) in the winter months. BOS-FRA is equal to MIA-FRA in the winter. MIA-AMS is a market that gets dropped and added so quick who can keep up with it, yet BOS-AMS maintains double daily DL year round. MIA-BRU and BOS-BRU isn't served so no point comparing the two. MIA-Moscow is a measly 2x per week. Boston also maintains the following European service that MIA doesn't:

Irrelevant. The amount of non-stop capacity a route has does not coorelate with it's O&D traffic. And Miami-Moscow has five weekly flights on two airlines. I will gladly supply you with approximate O&D for major markets from Boston/Miami to Europe. Based on FY2011 MIDT traffic data.

Boston's largest trans-Atlantic markets:
1) LON ~700 PDEW
2) PAR ~290 PDEW
3) DUB ~220 PDEW
4) FRA ~125 PDEW
5) ROM ~120 PDEW
6) AMS ~115 PDEW
7) MAD ~100 PDEW
8) ZRH ~80 PDEW
9) SNN ~75 PDEW
10) MUC ~70 PDEW

Miami's largest trans-Atlantic markets:
1) LON ~700 PDEW
2) PAR ~340 PDEW
3) MAD ~210 PDEW
4) FRA ~190 PDEW
5) ZRH ~170 PDEW
6) ROM ~160 PDEW
7) MXP/AMS ~140 PDEW each
8) TLV ~130 PDEW
9) DUS/BCN ~100 PDEW each
10) CPH ~95 PDEW

MIA is a significantly larger market to Europe than Boston. I never argued that Boston-Europe isn't a strong premium market. It absolutely is. Boston has stronger business ties to Germany, the UK and northern Europe than South Florida; but South Florida has much stronger corporate ties to Spain, Italy, Switzerland and Portugal than Boston. And the correlating fares reflect that - Miami attracts stronger J traffic than Boston to southern Europe; Boston attracts stronger J traffic than Miami to northern Europe. Premium demand from Miami to many parts of northern Europe is absolutely attorcious, which is why Miami struggles to support routes like Amsterdam despite significant local demand, and has no service to markets like Stockholm, Munich or Copenhagen (all over 80 PDEW). At the same time, Boston struggles to maintain links to Italy, Spain and Portugal at consistent frequency, while Miami maintains such links year-round and, in the case of Portugal, on a non-charter airline.

[Edited 2012-12-14 16:46:57]
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clrd4t8koff
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:44 am

I don't want approximate data, I (and the people of this forum) want concrete figures - i.e. a link to back up these stats. You're pulling all of this out of your a** as far as I'm concerned.. You may say that non-stop capacity a route has is irrelevant, but I guarantee you an airline doesn't throw an airplane on a route unless there's passengers to be carried and more importantly - money to be made. When you want to stop throwing out numbers and start providing links, then your input will be taken seriously. Otherwise, I think it's pretty obvious the airlines know what they're doing and adding capacity where it's needed - which ISN'T @ MIA.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:51 am

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 24):
I don't want approximate data, I (and the people of this forum) want concrete figures - i.e. a link to back up these stats. You're pulling all of this out of your a** as far as I'm concerned.. You may say that non-stop capacity a route has is irrelevant, but I guarantee you an airline doesn't throw an airplane on a route unless there's passengers to be carried and more importantly - money to be made. When you want to stop throwing out numbers and start providing links, then your input will be taken seriously. Otherwise, I think it's pretty obvious the airlines know what they're doing and adding capacity where it's needed - which ISN'T @ MIA.

I can't link to MIDT data. Other's here that can view it will gladly be able to back-up the figures, which are 100% accurate, albeit I rounded out the numbers to the nearest 5 or 0.

Sorry you choose not to believe them, but if you want to live in a fantasy land where Boston-Europe is the bigger market, that's your choice.

Further, I think your disilussioned if you think Boston is support that capacity on its own. Both Miami and Boston are major transit connecting hubs for traffic to/from Europe and have capacity far in excess of local demand.

In addition, Miami is seeing capacity to Europe increase this summer. So what exactly do you mean by your last, sentence?

[Edited 2012-12-14 16:57:17]
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clrd4t8koff
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:57 am

If a fantasy land is one where airlines, such as BA, are adding 747's on routes to LHR from BOS (on top of AA's 3x daily) and not MIA, then that's where I'm living.
 
clrd4t8koff
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:02 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 25):
Further, I think your disilussioned if you think Boston is support that capacity on its own. Both Miami and Boston are major transit connecting hubs for traffic to/from Europe and have capacity far in excess of local demand.

MIA is a huge hub for OneWorld with AA's presence there. This thread was specifically stated to BA adding a 4th daily LHR-BOS frequency. Please tell me who is flying LHR-BOS for a connecting flight?!?! No major airline has a hub in BOS or uses it for connecting purposes. AA has all but dismantled BOS for any connecting purposes.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 26):
If a fantasy land is one where airlines, such as BA, are adding 747's on routes to LHR from BOS (on top of AA's 3x daily) and not MIA, then that's where I'm living.

What are you talking about? BA added a third daily 747-400 to Miami, coincidently, this past weekend.

And keep in eye on that AA BOSLHR schedule. It's going to change; just like AA/BA are adjusting their combined MIALHR schedule.
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MAH4546
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 27):
MIA is a huge hub for OneWorld with AA's presence there. This thread was specifically stated to BA adding a 4th daily LHR-BOS frequency. Please tell me who is flying LHR-BOS for a connecting flight?!?! No major airline has a hub in BOS or uses it for connecting purposes. AA has all but dismantled BOS for any connecting purposes.

Look up something called interline connecting. It's an extremely common industry practice.

As for where connecting people are coming from: MIA itself is actually a pretty big feeder market for BOS-Europe. Another one is Orlando, as are Los Angeles, Washington-Reagan and Toronto.

Lufthansa and British Airways especially both see significant traffic connecting in Boston from other points in the U.S.
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chrisnh
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:49 am

Frankfurt is 125 people each way per day out of Boston??? That's a 757 with seats left over!! Lufthansa must be running some VERY empty planes on this route for the average to drop THAT low. Add whatever connecting traffic you like; it's still a light load.

[Edited 2012-12-14 17:51:04]
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:09 am

I feel like BOS-LHR will be just BA and VS in view of the recent VS/DL JV. I totally think AA will drop entirely the market and so would DL giving up its slots to VS. I don't think VS will operate 3 daily flights but totally see 1x747 and 1xA330/340 during summer and 2xA330 during Winter.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:27 am

FRA could make sense... an A340 seats about 300... pure hypotesis... since I don't know about LH's figures O&D VS transit, but 40/60 (a massive hub with a large catchment area but not necessarily the city with more evident cultural/business connections to Boston - such as London -), 100 O&D to Frankfurt (let's say 25 fly BOS-XXX-FRA) and 150 connecting makes 250 roughly 83% occupancy.

[Edited 2012-12-14 19:33:50]
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:55 am

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 30):
Frankfurt is 125 people each way per day out of Boston??? That's a 757 with seats left over!! Lufthansa must be running some VERY empty planes on this route for the average to drop THAT low. Add whatever connecting traffic you like; it's still a light load.


And? People grossly overestimate how much traffic on long-haul routes is local. It's rarely more than 30-40%, from any city sans NYC.

On top of that, LH doesn't even carry two-thirds the local BOSFRA market.
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:19 am

Isn't this thread supposed to be about BA adding a 4th daily BOS-LHR flight next year, rather than about the glories of Miami?  
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theginge
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:14 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 30):

I have read that midt data does not include people who book on airline websites hence numbers look low.
 
Freshside3
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:42 pm

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 10):
BA is adding a weekly flight to Luanda making it 3x weekly.
BA is also adding week end flights to Palma from LHR.

Other changes include increasing AMM to 11 weekly. Other changes are still possible.
Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 12):
I am surprised... in summer there is a lot of additional traffic (believe it or not New England is quite a popular place for European tourists... and they are not visiting in January for obvious reasons), VFR to the likes of UK, Ireland, Italy or Portugal (just see additional Aer Lingus flights, for instance), and New England/BOS has the highest rates of international travel in the US (wealthy and educated region, so locals are more likely to travel to Europe... specially in summer). Probably seminar/student/corporate traffic declines but still I would have thought it would be offset with the additional summer traffic (and additional "leisure" services such as the BOS-CDG or BOS-SNN would be on that line).

In both cases, the lack of anything else to get them where they're going....there are a lot of markets for BOS, but not enough to warrant having any one flight, so this is neatly bundled up.

Since someone mentioned the LH BOS-MUC trip, this is also more of a useful trip than what most people think. Mainly due to the 1030a-12noon bank in MUC on LH to certain Eastern European destinations that only have one flight a day. Some LH trips do not make it to MUC in time to make this bank. In SFO, for example, the MUC nonstop leaves way too late to make this bank of connections.......taking the first UA SFO-BOS trip of the day will make the BOS-MUC trip and the onward connections. Not as well known as the other options, but it does work, and people do use it.
 
clrd4t8koff
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 28):

BA hasn't added a 3rd 744 at MIA. I've looked at ba.com and used several dates over the summer (7/11 & 8/15) and there are only 2 LHR flights BA 206 & 208. I then looked at BOS and there are indeed 4x daily BOS-LHR and 2x AA BOS-LHR. Looks like your info is off again. Here I thought you were the expert on MIA.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 34):

Isn't this thread supposed to be about BA adding a 4th daily BOS-LHR flight next year, rather than about the glories of Miami?  

I'm glad to see I'm not the only who's picking up on this. MAH4546 has this animosity towards any other US airport (BOS specifically) seeing additional flights or upgauges in equipment outside of MIA. Over the last few years he's incorrectly touted MIA as the next airport in line for direct NRT flights, which instead went in favor of BOS. He seems to think he knows a lot about BOS yet knows very little.

Quoting theginge (Reply 35):
I have read that midt data does not include people who book on airline websites hence numbers look low.

Don't tell that to certain people on this site -- they're the expert and know everything   
 
vv701
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 22):
I think I've already proved you wrong that BOS-LHR is the larger market. IF you have concrete data and a link to that that shows concrete passenger stats, please provide it and prove me wrong.

The number of passengers carried in 2011 were, according to the British CAA:

Between LHR and BOS: 1,030,867

Between LHR and MIA: 953,878

Source: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...tl_Air_Pax_Route_Analysis_2011.pdf page 65.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:31 pm

Since I started the thread, I'll divert it: Boston is gaining some international steam with international carriers...not U.S. flag carriers. Which is a sad commentary indeed. Aside from Delta's on-again-off-again-on-again London service, practically every new route into and out of Boston is aboard an international carrier. The next 'shoe to drop' for Boston service is either going to be China or the Middle East...again, entirely from international flag-waving carriers.

From a spotters' perspective, I'm quite pleased to see international carriers take the lead in Boston.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:39 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 38):
The number of passengers carried in 2011 were, according to the British CAA:

Between LHR and BOS: 1,030,867

Between LHR and MIA: 953,878

Source: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...tl_Air_Pax_Route_Analysis_2011.pdf page 65.

Thank you! I appreciate not only a link to concrete data, but someone else stepping in to prove to MAH4546 what I've been saying all along - BOS IS THE LARGER MARKET TO LHR!

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 39):

Since I started the thread, I'll divert it: Boston is gaining some international steam with international carriers...not U.S. flag carriers. Which is a sad commentary indeed. Aside from Delta's on-again-off-again-on-again London service, practically every new route into and out of Boston is aboard an international carrier. The next 'shoe to drop' for Boston service is either going to be China or the Middle East...again, entirely from international flag-waving carriers.

From a spotters' perspective, I'm quite pleased to see international carriers take the lead in Boston.

I completely agree with your last sentence. I love to see the various tails at the airport. While it'd be nice to have more domestic carriers operating internationally, I also love how many new int'l carriers we're getting and how diverse the scenery is becoming. Looking forward to Turkish or Qatar hopefully coming soon.
 
vv701
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:01 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 39):
Boston is gaining some international steam with international carriers...not U.S. flag carriers.

I guess this reflects the fact that the international carriers are flying from their main hub to BOS and that BOS is not a significant hub for any of the US international legacy carriers.

Operating between two non-hub airports in the face of significant competition from airlines operating out of their hub or hubs is always likely to prove economically difficult.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 40):
Thank you! I appreciate not only a link to concrete data, but someone else stepping in to prove to MAH4546 what I've been saying all along - BOS IS THE LARGER MARKET TO LHR!

Why are you in this for a competition? MAH4546 is simply stating a correlation between AA dropping BOS, and AA adding extra capacity from MIA. You're obviously in this for some kind of competition, and you will lose. He's the one who actually has figures to go off of, you have yet to post anything regarding real traffic numbers.

You should probably take a moment, and cool off.   

Any chance AA will use these freed up 75L's for any new US-LHR flying? Perhaps something else out of JFK?
"Things change, friends leave, life doesn't stop for anybody." -- EAT'EM UP EAT'EM UP KSU!!
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 37):
BA hasn't added a 3rd 744 at MIA. I've looked at ba.com and used several dates over the summer (7/11 & 8/15) and there are only 2 LHR flights BA 206 & 208. I then looked at BOS and there are indeed 4x daily BOS-LHR and 2x AA BOS-LHR. Looks like your info is off again. Here I thought you were the expert on MIA.

Here's an idea: check the BA schedule for TODAY. Three daily 754s MIALHR.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 38):
The number of passengers carried in 2011 were, according to the British CAA:

That's the number of passengers carried. That includes people connecting. For example, that includes a a passenger flying MEX-MIA-LHR or BOS-LHR-ARN. That is not the local market. MIALHR and BOSLHR are not that large of local markets. They are each around 500,000 annual local boardings. Only two long-haul markets from the U.S. generate over 1,000,000 local boarding a: HNLTYO and NYCLON.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 37):
I'm glad to see I'm not the only who's picking up on this. MAH4546 has this animosity towards any other US airport (BOS specifically) seeing additional flights or upgauges in equipment outside of MIA

I have no animosity. You stated something factually incorrect and I corrected you. That's all. You can't face the fact that MIA is a larger market than BOS to Europe, for whatever reason. If it makes you feel better, while MIA is the larger overall market, if you look only at point of orgination, more people originate Europe travel from Boston than Miami.

I try to be helpful and provide some concrete data that is not typically available publicly, but this is what I get? No thanks. I simply won't provide it any more.
a.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 42):
Any chance AA will use these freed up 75L's for any new US-LHR flying? Perhaps something else out of JFK?

I think it's possible. Lets see if this is the summer that AA finally takes advantage of ATI to open up secondary markets like BDLLHR or CLELHR.

Also, there is a reliable rumor going around - and this even surprises me - that the additional BA frequency might replace all three daily AA 757s on the route, as AA reallocates that capacity elsewhere. I don't know though, it's still Wierd thinking AA metal won't be in the market at all.
a.
 
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adamh8297
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:45 pm

All,


Something close to 2003 and 2011 O&D data is listed here: http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/aviation Its a gold mine for those of us who do not have access to the data presented above.

Everything MAH4546 posts matches up with these numbers except:

2011 O&D

BOS-LON (includes MHT but not PVD) = 512,648
MIA-LON (includes FLL and not sure if PBI is included) = 476,010

However, MIA-Europe > BOS-Europe

Total MIA/FLL O&D to Western Europe is about 2.6 million and BOS was 2.3 million. The study lumped Central Asia and Eastern Europe together which adds .25 million for MIA and .2 million for BOS.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
iowaman
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:37 pm

Fellow members,

I kindly ask to keep this thread on topic and to avoid turning this into a MIA vs BOS argument.

Thanks,
Kevin/iowaman
 
VS11
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 44):
Also, there is a reliable rumor going around - and this even surprises me - that the additional BA frequency might replace all three daily AA 757s on the route, as AA reallocates that capacity elsewhere. I don't know though, it's still Wierd thinking AA metal won't be in the market at all.

Why are you surprised? It makes perfect sense - AA has been in contracting mode for a long time. It will be some time before they can have a product that comes close to BA or VS. That's why I said earlier that I see BA and VS running BOS-LHR.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 40):


While it'd be nice to have more domestic carriers operating internationally, I also love how many new int'l carriers we're getting and how diverse the scenery is becoming. Looking forward to Turkish or Qatar hopefully coming soon.

Don't rule out EK starting BOS-DXB as well. The only domestic carrier I could see starting a long-haul would be the off chance DL starts BOS-ICN in cooperation with KE.

It will be interesting to see who actually winds up servicing BOS between TK/QR/EK and how it would affect frequencies and aircraft types to the BOS-LHR and other European routes that have more than one flight a day. I also wonder if one of the gulf carriers starts BOS via LHR or other European destination.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
The 3 AA flights (AA108/109, AA124/125, AA155/156) are also still showing up on the LHR-BOS route alongside the new BA flight (BA202/203) and the existing three BA flights (BA212/213, BA214/215, BA238/239). Which AA flight is being dropped?
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 44):
Also, there is a reliable rumor going around - and this even surprises me - that the additional BA frequency might replace all three daily AA 757s on the route, as AA reallocates that capacity elsewhere. I don't know though, it's still Wierd thinking AA metal won't be in the market at all.

Just checked random dates for this summer on AA.com, and all BOS-LHR-BOS flights are operated by BA. For some reason, only 3 flights were listed. Not 4.

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
clrd4t8koff
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:56 am

[quote=adamh8297,reply=45]Everything MAH4546 posts matches up with these numbers except:

2011 O&D

BOS-LON (includes MHT but not PVD) = 512,648
MIA-LON (includes FLL and not sure if PBI is included) = 476,010


If you read my very first post in this thread, I said I respect what MAH4546 generally posts. I never wanted this to turn into a BOS vs MIA - Europe thread. In fact, I never argued that BOS-Europe was a larger market. My sole purpose of participating in this thread was simply to state that BOS-LHR was a larger market and this is why BA was adding a 4th daily flight. Did I have a link? No. But unlike MAH4546, I also wasn't posting numbers claiming MIA was higher for O&D. Others have done that already and I will not rest my case and allow this thread to be focused solely on BA's addition of a 4th daily flight.
 
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:17 am

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 50):
If you read my very first post in this thread, I said I respect what MAH4546 generally posts. I never wanted this to turn into a BOS vs MIA - Europe thread. In fact, I never argued that BOS-Europe was a larger market. My sole purpose of participating in this thread was simply to state that BOS-LHR was a larger market and this is why BA was adding a 4th daily flight. Did I have a link? No. But unlike MAH4546, I also wasn't posting numbers claiming MIA was higher for O&D. Others have done that already and I will not rest my case and allow this thread to be focused solely on BA's addition of a 4th daily flight.

You accused me of lying and making up traffic figures, which have since been shown to be true. My O&D data is for APR11-MAR12, in which MIALON was a slightly larger local market than BOSLON, with both around 700 PDEW.

You also accused me of lying when I said AA's would reduce its schedule this weekend on BOSLHR. Well, it just did, though I was wrong in saying it would be reduced by one flight. AA is ending all BOSLHR service - the one 744 addition will replace the three daily 757 AA flights, which I believe will be a slight drop in capacity.
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adamh8297
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RE: BA Going 4x To Boston In 2013

Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:50 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 51):
AA is ending all BOSLHR service - the one 744 addition will replace the three daily 757 AA flights, which I believe will be a slight drop in capacity.

What will AA do with the freed up slots? Add 1-2 secondary U.S. Destinations or Increase hub-LHR flights?
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN