lostsound
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Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:25 pm

Quote:
Airbus is examining a possible A321 fuselage modification which would aim to increase passenger capacity of the A321neo.

The modification would potentially take the A321neo to 235 seats.

Exit limitations mean the A321 is certificated, under European regulations, to transport a maximum of 220 passengers.

But Airbus executive vice-president for programmes Tom Williams says a higher-capacity version is "one of the things we're studying".

Full Article Below:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-lift-a321neo-to-235-seats-380226/

Though there has been no information on which airline was inquiring about this modification, the article seems to think AirAsia is a likely candidate.

Which airlines do you think would be interested? I'd assume those who enjoy their 757s would be intrigued, though the extra capacity probably further limits the range.

Do you think there is enough demand?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting lostsound (Thread starter):
Which airlines do you think would be interested?

I would imagine any LCC that operates the A321-200 in a single-class configuration. Since they already need 5 cabin crew, the extra 15 seats would incur no additional staff costs.
 
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zeke
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting lostsound (Thread starter):

Sounds like they looking at adding the A320 over wing escape slide
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Clydenairways
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:36 pm

This is interesting.

Obviously this version would have shorter range than the other NEO's so i wonder if this would be offered in addition to the current 220 seat version or if this would form the new A321 standard with 235 seats.
The link to the article is down so i cant see if it clarifies this.
 
migair54
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:37 pm

Well obviously is an airline that operates in one class layout and if Airbus is considering is because they must be considering to order a big bunch of them.

Lately i have been reading about Lion Air placing a big airbus order for NEO, can this be?. 235 pax in a single aisle plane must be a nice advantage for an airline that is going to be soon having problems with very busy airports like CGK.

Air Asia for the same reason than Lion Air, what about Indigo?? I think they can do also a good use of this birds.

This are three airlines that can do very nicely with this option.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 3):
Obviously this version would have shorter range than the other NEO's so i wonder if this would be offered in addition to the current 220 seat version or if this would form the new A321 standard with 235 seats.

It's an optional configuration that includes the addition of two over-wing exits with over-wing escape slides.
 
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:45 pm

I could also see NK interested in this modification, even though they have sold most of their original A321s. Right now, NK packs all of their A32x with the maximum amount of seats allowed by FAA regulations, and going from 178 to 235 seats would be great for certain NK routes.

[Edited 2012-12-14 07:48:03]
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by738
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:47 pm

isnt it the range that is the issue, not capacity ?
 
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:50 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 7):

isnt it the range that is the issue, not capacity ?

The A321NEO solves most of the original A321 range issues, many of which were already solved by performance improvement packages and upgraded engines on the original A321.

The extra capacity is likely being done with ULCCs in mind, most of which care more about high density than long range.

[Edited 2012-12-14 07:52:00]
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 7):
isnt it the range that is the issue, not capacity?

LCC operators with high-density configurations generally run shorter stage-lengths to maximize aircraft utilization (more flights per operating day).
 
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 7):
isnt it the range that is the issue, not capacity ?

More pax less range, more range less pax, it´s an easy equation, but i´m sure the airline is asking for more pax is because they make the field study and they understood they need pax and no range, maybe for an airline like US Airways range is more important to do trancon flights but for example Lion Air current network range is not an issue.
 
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:15 pm

Wouldn't this create a kind of gap between the A320NEO and the A321NEO in terms of passenger capacity?

I guess the specific questions are (i) how many Airbus customers are in need of new, more efficient narrowbodies that can seat 180-210 passengers; and (ii) how inefficient would it be for those carriers to use a longer and heavier A321NEO, compared to what they had in mind when the NEO program was launched?
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lostsound
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:19 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 11):

Airbus is considering this as an option. The normal A321 arrangement would still be offered as usual, but also they would be offering this extra capacity version.
 
r2rho
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:50 pm

The A321 keeps gaining capabilities... it is IMO the aircraft that will gain the most from the NEO and will become increasingly popular.

European holiday operators like Monarch will surely love this option and not mind any range limitations (which the NEO removes anyway). And basically anyone flying 1-class high-density short routes. Will the seat pitch be nice? No. Will boarding and deplaning take forever? Yes. But for holiday carriers that is less of an issue.
 
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 6):
going from 178 to 235 seats would be great for certain NK routes.

Don't forget it would take an extra flight attendant though. On the other hand, the ratio of passengers-to-flight-attendant would go up, so the cost of the extra attendant may be more than made up by the extra passengers, provided the load factor and yield remain the same, of course.
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 12):
Airbus is considering this as an option. The normal A321 arrangement would still be offered as usual, but also they would be offering this extra capacity version.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. I guess there would be an A321NEO and an A321NEO-lengthened. Why not call it A322NEO?
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lostsound
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:41 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):
Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. I guess there would be an A321NEO and an A321NEO-lengthened. Why not call it A322NEO?

Because it's not a lengthen. They are just adding overwing exits and moving the ones behind the wings further back.  
It is really just a high-density A321.
 
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:11 pm

I could see this being of use to BA for domestics and certain european routes, especially since it looks like the 788's won't be used to replace the shorthaul 767 fleet, at least not at this stage.
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:27 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 13):

The A321 keeps gaining capabilities... it is IMO the aircraft that will gain the most from the NEO and will become increasingly popular.

Agreed. It will receive MTOW increases and the airline will have the choice of carrying fuel or payload. Their call.


Go for it. At a minimum it will improve resale.

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B777LRF
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:59 pm

All this talk about range is overblown, in my opinion. The airlines this version is targeted at are generally speaking operating at average sector lengths of around 2 hours, with the maximum being 5-6 hours. It is quite possible this aircraft will be perfectly able to lift a full pax load up to 6 hours, so what's the problem?

http://i45.tinypic.com/2b1ipt.png

http://i46.tinypic.com/10n9he1.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/91jq5f.jpg

Note:
The above range charts are for a 185 seat A321NEO, so does not provide a realistic picture of the 235 seat version, but it does provide a hint, namely that range won't be an issue.
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:59 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 12):
Airbus is considering this as an option. The normal A321 arrangement would still be offered as usual, but also they would be offering this extra capacity version.

I wonder if this "option" becomes the standard? There would be a minimal weight gain from the additional exits and new escape slide. Operators would have the flexibility to pack in as many people (up to 235) as they want. It's like the 737-900 situation. An additional door was added so the 737-900 could hold more people. The new 737-900ER became the new standard and the original 737-900 was dropped.
 
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:59 pm

I presume they'll use an A320 overwing fuselage section? (much like the High Density A319)
 
migair54
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 16):
Because it's not a lengthen. They are just adding overwing exits and moving the ones behind the wings further back.  
It is really just a high-density A321.

The A350 also has a option for high density with an extra door, so it´s something that Airbus already has in mind.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):
Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. I guess there would be an A321NEO and an A321NEO-lengthened. Why not call it A322NEO?
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 14):
Don't forget it would take an extra flight attendant though. On the other hand, the ratio of passengers-to-flight-attendant would go up, so the cost of the extra attendant may be more than made up by the extra passengers, provided the load factor and yield remain the same, of course.

True, but a B737-800 with 189 seats needs 4 F/A, so getting 46 more seat and only 1 more cabin crew is great.

I think this version will be a big success if they can also give a little bit of extra range with the sharklets and few more improvements, also with the composite materials the Basic Empty weight will go down and that means more payload uplift and/or fuel.
 
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:38 pm

The current A321 has 8 exits, so does the 757-200.
Granted R/L2 aren't the same size as R/L/1 like they are on the 757-200. Does the door size make a difference?
If not, can someone explain why 2 more wing exits are needed, if the 757 didn't have them?

Edit:
I've googled some images of 757's and some show 2 overwing exits and some don't.
The comparison i'm working against is Thomson/Britannia 757's were all 235 config, with no overwing exits.

[Edited 2012-12-14 13:38:54]
 
roseflyer
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 20):
I wonder if this "option" becomes the standard? There would be a minimal weight gain from the additional exits and new escape slide.

It is not minimal weight. It’s slides, door actuation, and door maintenance. That’s quite a bit of weight to be carrying around over a fuselage plug or better yet no doors at all.

Most airlines plugged the extra door on the 900ER. The extra weight and maintenance is not something the airlines want to have to do unless they are required to. Unless we have another Manchester style narrowbody fire, I don’t see there being any motivation in the airlines to add doors beyond the minimum required by the regulatory authority.
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:11 am

Quoting lostsound (Reply 16):

Because it's not a lengthen. They are just adding overwing exits and moving the ones behind the wings further back.
It is really just a high-density A321

Like U2's A319's with 156 seats.

Obvious targets would have to be U2, AB, W6 and DY in Europe along with some smaller airlines like ZB, TOM, TCX. FR would surely love it too if they could be persuaded to pay the proper price.
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:28 am

Shouldn't they just called it an A322 then?
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:47 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 26):
Shouldn't they just called it an A322 then?

No, it's not a different type. It's a reconfiguration of the exits on the existing A321 frame to allow a higher maximum seating capacity.

This really only applies to airlines with really high density (all economy) seating. As noted before, it's no different of a concept than the A319s with an extra overwing exit (which make them almost look like A320s), or the various different door configuration options on the 757/767, etc. Otherwise, same size plane.
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:54 am

Gulf Air's longest flight with the current A321s is DAC-BAH which is 6 hours 10 minutes long without incurring any payload restrictions as we have 1 additional fuel tank installed. This is possible in summer only as in Winter season due to DAC fog there is an issue.

In the winter, our longest A321 flight is to Rome and Colombo without any payload issues.

The A321NEO can fly as far as BAH-CPH nonstop without any payload issues.
 
Btblue
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:19 am

Time to build and A322 I think. There is a huge gap between the 321 and the 332.
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AAMDanny
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:21 am

I think if the 2+3Doors are enlarged or enhanced I think the capacity can be increased. With some cleaver movement of galley and lavatory space the extra rows could be squeezed in. It wouldn't be comfortable but for LCC/Charter operators it would be a winner.
 
CRJ900
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:53 am

I guess super-slim seats are a given here as well.

I have an old A321 seatmap from GECAS showing 220 seats @ 28 inch pitch with four lavatories and galleys G1 and G4, and the cabin is pretty packed, so another 15 seats will demand creativity, maximum 3 lavs and a half-size galley G4. This will not do for charter carriers - they need all the galley space they can get...
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JerseyFlyer
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:23 pm

This could be very strategic for LCC fleet renewals. Their choice is 737 family or 320 family. All LCCs have a range of high and lower demand routes. This option allows the 320 family to address the higher demand routes in a way that the 737 family cannot.

It may well be enough to swing a whole fleet replacement order, even though the proportion of high density 321s within the overall order may be relatively small.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:22 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 32):
This could be very strategic for LCC fleet renewals. Their choice is 737 family or 320 family. All LCCs have a range of high and lower demand routes. This option allows the 320 family to address the higher demand routes in a way that the 737 family cannot.

The A321-200 has always had a capacity advantage over the 737-900ER due to it's ~2m longer cabin. As such, I don't see this additional capacity as something that would sway a 737-900ER operator to the A321-200 as they would have previously chosen the A321-200 if they needed more capacity.

[Edited 2012-12-15 06:22:40]
 
babybus
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:32 pm

235 seats is actually more than the charter airline version of the old 757 which was 229.

Having more seats is great for airlines but it's a bit of a pain for passengers. The charter version of the A321 is already very uncomfortable and one which I actively avoid.

The flight prices won't come down but the airlines will make more money for doing less.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 24):
Most airlines plugged the extra door on the 900ER. The extra weight and maintenance is not something the airlines want to have to do unless they are required to. Unless we have another Manchester style narrowbody fire, I don’t see there being any motivation in the airlines to add doors beyond the minimum required by the regulatory authority.

The plugged door will require maintenance at a heavy check whether it is used or not. That is also required if the door is covered over and not accessible from the inside.   
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roseflyer
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 35):

The plugged door will require maintenance at a heavy check whether it is used or not. That is also required if the door is covered over and not accessible from the inside.

The inactive door does still require maintenance, but no where near as much. The inactive door requires a detailed inspection of seals, but the rest of the door is covered in the zonal maintenance program.

With an active door the seals and hinges must be inspected more frequently, operation checks are required to ensure the switches and indication is working, the slides must be inspected and blown on occasion as a part of the slide maintenance. There is also more weight.
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Aircellist
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 19):

Sorry, but there is something with your maps. No way would any aircraft fly further west on north Atlantic than it would fly east...
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egnr
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 34):
235 seats is actually more than the charter airline version of the old 757 which was 229.

Thomas Cook operate 235 seat B752s: http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Tho...Cook_Airlines_Boeing_757-200_B.php

Thomson also operate 235 seat B752s:
http://www.seatplans.com/airlines/Th...mson-Airways/seatplans/B757-200-11

EuroAtlantic operates 239 seat (max certified capacity for B752) B752s
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/CS-TFK.html
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 37):
Sorry, but there is something with your maps. No way would any aircraft fly further west on north Atlantic than it would fly east...

Those maps aren't mine; they belong to Airbus. Feel free to play with them yourself on their website. But do keep in mind the projection of that map is not an accurate reflection of what the world really looks like.
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Aircellist
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:18 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 39):
Those maps aren't mine; they belong to Airbus.

Okay, I see... Thanks, and apologies, then...

Yet, there is still something wrong with their maps, though... I don't know how it could be programmed to represent average headwinds.
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SXDFC
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:00 pm

IMHO IF and I say IF Airbus was to make an "A322", hopefully it would be a direct TATL 757 replacement. I wonder if Airbus has even wondered if they should enter this market or not..

[Edited 2012-12-15 15:01:01]
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 41):
IMHO IF and I say IF Airbus was to make an "A322", hopefully it would be a direct TATL 757 replacement. I wonder if Airbus has even wondered if they should enter this market or not.

I'm sure they have considered it, but such a plane would require a new generation of engines in the 40-45,000 pound thrust range.

By the time Boeing and Airbus are ready to launch their new generation narrowbodies in the 2020s, Pratt might very well be ready with a 45k GTF.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:15 am

Quoting egnr (Reply 38):
Quoting babybus (Reply 34):
235 seats is actually more than the charter airline version of the old 757 which was 229.

Thomas Cook operate 235 seat B752s: http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Tho...Cook_Airlines_Boeing_757-200_B.php

Thomson also operate 235 seat B752s:
http://www.seatplans.com/airlines/Th...mson-Airways/seatplans/B757-200-11

EuroAtlantic operates 239 seat (max certified capacity for B752) B752s
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/CS-TFK.html

Ok, so this is a true 752 replacement for charter or other high density airlines. Cool... The NEO should have a little more range than the OEO would have.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
By the time Boeing and Airbus are ready to launch their new generation narrowbodies in the 2020s, Pratt might very well be ready with a 45k GTF.

  

Pratt could launch a 45k GTF today. The issue is for what and there would be a 7 year launch to EIS lag.... The current cores have been in development a *long* time and yet they are taking a while. The other size Pratt has looked at is a wee bit bigger than 45k.

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BlueShamu330s
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:13 am

With MON, TCX group, BIE et al, all in discussions over fleet replacement on the charter front, plus British Airways approaching a strategic decision point regarding their short haul fleet overhaul (to include everything from the A319 up to their short haul B763s) and the AFR Metropole fleet, it seems Airbus is about to pull off quite a coup.

This variant would give European charter carriers the capacity of the B752 with all the range they require. The longest common sectors these days are northern Europe to BJL, BVC, SID and the Red Sea resorts, so a 235 seat "A322" would be the perfect next generation frame.

I wonder whether this capacity increase will permit a full galley at the rear or just half, a la easyJet.

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Clydenairways
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:23 am

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 41):
IMHO IF and I say IF Airbus was to make an "A322", hopefully it would be a direct TATL 757 replacement. I wonder if Airbus has even wondered if they should enter this market or not..

There is only a small market for aircraft in this category so i doubt we will see a dedicated type being built to take over all the TATL NB stuff.
What we will see is the 737/A320 class pushed to it's limit to take as much of the longer range flights as possible, while still keeping the airframe optimised for the shorter core business.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 43):
Ok, so this is a true 752 replacement for charter or other high density airlines. Cool... The NEO should have a little more range than the OEO would have.

As long as it can do Finland to the Canaries with a full load , then that covers 99.9% of the requirement.
 
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 45):
There is only a small market for aircraft in this category so i doubt we will see a dedicated type being built to take over all the TATL NB stuff.

True however, a TATL capable A321 could be extremely useful for high density short haul routes, as well as have very good hot and high performance.
 
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ZSOFN
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:32 pm

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 37):
Sorry, but there is something with your maps. No way would any aircraft fly further west on north Atlantic than it would fly east...

From the looks of the placement of the aircraft icon on those (near CDG, SIN and IAD), I would say the very tip of the nose represents its intended location, which makes it look a little inaccurate.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:32 pm

Although looks can be deceiving, British Airways for example configure their A321s with more seats than their 757s ever had. I reckon we will see them order more!
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Polot
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RE: Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO

Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:39 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 48):
Although looks can be deceiving, British Airways for example configure their A321s with more seats than their 757s ever had. I reckon we will see them order more!
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 44):
plus British Airways approaching a strategic decision point regarding their short haul fleet overhaul (to include everything from the A319 up to their short haul B763s) and the AFR Metropole fleet,

Guys, BA is not going to be interested in this variant. As is they configure their A321s with 188 seats. This new proposal is just additional doors to the A321, not a stretch. If BA wants to add more seats to their A321 they are free to do so now, they are under the legal limit. This is for airlines that pack as many seats in with as little legroom as possible, i.e. chrater airlines or ULCC. Major carriers such as BA, AF, IB, KL, LH etc will get no use out of this so it is hardly a carrot to entice them to order more A321s if they were on the fence about it.

[Edited 2012-12-17 06:39:46]

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