commavia
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AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:55 pm

http://aa.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=3609

- DFW-BOG and MIA-CWB/POA starting "late 2013"
- Codeshare with TAM and LAN Colombia

I think all of these were fairly predictable. Guess this means TAM is now surely a lock for oneworld.

[Edited 2012-12-17 07:57:39]
 
PRAirbus
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:24 pm

I wonder if MIA-COR will be next...AA needs more metal to fly these routes. AA is getting 3 additional gates in MIA soon.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:28 pm

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see if POA and CWB will be non-stop or tag-ons. Will they be non-stop 757s?

I also expected to see COR next. I'd like to see CUZ again, but understand that's not very likely.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:31 pm

Man, I feel vindicated.

I have said over and over that AA needed only LIM and BOG and the South American network from DFW would be complete. That was met with some pushback in the a.net community.

With this addition, the DFW-South American network is complete. The only thing that would make it more so is if they could add frequency to the CCS and GIG flights.
It is what it is...
 
C010T3
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:36 pm

It's very probable that the service to Southern Brazil will be a triangular flight MIA-CWB-POA-MIA. CWB's runway is somewhat short.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3):
With this addition, the DFW-South American network is complete. The only thing that would make it more so is if they could add frequency to the CCS and GIG flights.

The fact that DFW-GIG is running daily this winter is also a sign that it may see year-round increases in the near future.

[Edited 2012-12-17 08:39:37]

[Edited 2012-12-17 08:40:15]
 
Tdan
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:39 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3):
Man, I feel vindicated.

I have said over and over that AA needed only LIM and BOG and the South American network from DFW would be complete. That was met with some pushback in the a.net community.

With this addition, the DFW-South American network is complete. The only thing that would make it more so is if they could add frequency to the CCS and GIG flights.

         There's still a little room to Mexico and Central America from DFW, but I think S. America is done for a while. GIG would be the only additional point that makes sense, but I think that's a few years down the line (post-WC but pre-Olympics perhaps?).

LIM and BOG were both LONG overdue and I'm happy to see them both on the route map. I would not be surprised to see a 763 on DFWLIM when more shells come available.
We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
 
runway23
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:41 pm

Realistically what is left now for AA in Brazil ? I would think the next destinations will be VCP, FOR, NAT ?
 
avi8
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:42 pm

AA added a second flight to GUA on Saturdays from DFW. My guess is they are testing to see if it works so that maybe add that second frequency on other days of the week.
avi8
 
PRAirbus
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:53 pm

Good to see AA having some cautious growth!
 
ldvaviation
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
I think all of these were fairly predictable. Guess this means TAM is now surely a lock for oneworld.

The WSJ reported last week that IAG (BA/IB) and LATAM were still negotiating the parts of their deal, but that the final agreement is more or less a forgone conclusion.

[Edited 2012-12-17 09:05:22]
 
PRAirbus
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:10 pm

If LATAM had no intentions of staying in oneworld they would'nt be enhancing agreements w/AA!
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 5):
There's still a little room to Mexico and Central America from DFW, but I think S. America is done for a while. GIG would be the only additional point that makes sense, but I think that's a few years down the line (post-WC but pre-Olympics perhaps?).

LIM and BOG were both LONG overdue and I'm happy to see them both on the route map. I would not be surprised to see a 763 on DFWLIM when more shells come available.

Agreed wholely.

Im the biggest DFW fan on this forum, but Id like to think Im somewhat realistic on what could be done. I know that smaller destinations in South America arent really possible. Destinations like UIO, GYE, MVD are not feasible.

Like I said earlier, outside of LIM and BOG, being able to add frequency to CCS and GIG would be the only addition things I would like to see.

In Central America and Mexico, there is definately room for more. Having a plane like the E190 would be great for expansion to cities like SAP, MGA, or TGU while allowing destinations like PTY to be daily.
It is what it is...
 
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jmw99ttu
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:20 pm

Will the BOG flight be operated on the new A319s? Many have speculated that this would be the right plane for the mission. I'm happy to see AA continue to expand from DFW, but I sure would have enjoyed seeing some LAN metal here.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:27 pm

Service from Miami to Porto Alegre/Curtiba has been in the works for a while now. Last I heard it would be a triangular routing; CWB can't take a non-stop to MIA. It will be a 767-300ER.
a.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 11):
Destinations like UIO, GYE, MVD are not feasible.

Why is DFW-UIO not feasible, or perhaps something like DFW-UIO-GYE-DFW? Isn't UIO a large South American destination?
 
EricR
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:38 pm

Outside of Brazil and Argentina, AA has struggled with routes from DFW to South America. Therefore, BOG will be a stretch. There is not hardly any O&D traffic to support the route and most traffic out of Columbia heads towards the southeastern / eastern United States which AA handles via MIA.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 15):
Outside of Brazil and Argentina, AA has struggled with routes from DFW to South America.

What do you base that off of?
It is what it is...
 
EricR
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 16):
What do you base that off of?

Correct me if I am wrong, but AA has started and stopped LIM, SCL, CCS before in the past. These routes do not seem to hang on long term.

Part of the problem is that AA's hub in MIA is much better suited to serve these routes. It has a much greater O&D and is geographically located in a much better position to handle most of the connecting traffic (southeastern and eastern U.S.). Yes, DFW helps for traffic destined to the western part of the U.S., but we know that the flight would mostly have to rely on connecting traffic (what little there is to the western part of the U.S.) since O&D traffic to DFW is very small.

[Edited 2012-12-17 10:06:53]
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 17):
Correct me if I am wrong, but AA has started and stopped LIM, SCL, CCS before in the past. These routes do not seem to hang on long term.

DFWCCS and DFWSCL have ran continuously since launch in the 1990's.

DFWLIM ended once, and is soon re-starting.
a.
 
klwright69
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 14):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 11): Destinations like UIO, GYE, MVD are not feasible.
Why is DFW-UIO not feasible, or perhaps something like DFW-UIO-GYE-DFW? Isn't UIO a large South American destination?

Maybe UIO, I doubt GYE. CO dropped GYE after serving it for many, many years.
 
EricR
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 18):
DFWCCS and DFWSCL have ran continuously since launch in the 1990's.

Apologies on SCL. However, the one weekly flight to CCS is indicative of the amount of traffic that DFW is able to support to South American markets excluding of Brazil / Argentina, and yes, Chile.
 
Tdan
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 14):

Why is DFW-UIO not feasible, or perhaps something like DFW-UIO-GYE-DFW? Isn't UIO a large South American destination?

Ecuador-US is an interesting market...very different from BOG or LIM. Firstly, the market is very concentrated to MIA and NYC, making any other nonstops tough since the local markets are so small. Additionally, GYE yields are trash to the US. If UA doesn't serve it out of IAH, you know there is an issue and no way DFW would work. UIO has potential once the new airport opens, but I'd expect JFKUIO before DFWUIO. The market size, particularly to the west just isn't there as opposed to BOG and LIM.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 11):

In Central America and Mexico, there is definately room for more. Having a plane like the E190 would be great for expansion to cities like SAP, MGA, or TGU while allowing destinations like PTY to be daily.

I think SAP or even RTB will be your next best adds from DFW to the region, but as you correctly illustrate, a 738 is a little big for these Central American markets. The incremental revenue and profitability might not exceed the cannibalization incurred on the MIA-SAP route, for example.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 13):
Service from Miami to Porto Alegre/Curtiba has been in the works for a while now. Last I heard it would be a triangular routing; CWB can't take a non-stop to MIA. It will be a 767-300ER.

Doesn't POA still present operational issues due to the runway length? I know CWB definitely has to be a tag because of the altitude and runway length, but I'm curious to see if they can do it without weight restrictions. Very excited for the new service regardless!
We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 20):
However, the one weekly flight to CCS is indicative of the amount of traffic that DFW is able to support to South American markets excluding of Brazil / Argentina, and yes, Chile.

No, thats indicative of how much capacity AA can support from DFW to CCS. Its not all one market.

LIM and BOG are going to be no problem. If nothing else, AA will have codeshares on both the LIM and BOG ends. The local markets will also grow.
It is what it is...
 
EricR
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 22):
No, thats indicative of how much capacity AA can support from DFW to CCS. Its not all one market.

LIM and BOG are going to be no problem. If nothing else, AA will have codeshares on both the LIM and BOG ends. The local markets will also grow.


Why do you believe these factors will lead to the success of this route, when you tend to discount or completely dismiss these same factors (its not one market, local markets will grow, codeshares on both ends) when discussing the viability of routes from other hubs in the U.S.? I'm not clear if it something unique about DFW-LIM/BOG or just biased towards DFW.

[Edited 2012-12-17 11:43:58]
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 23):
Why do you believe these factors will lead to the success of this route, when you tend to discount or completely dismiss these same factors (its not one market, local markets will grow, codeshares on both ends) when discussing the viability of routes from other hubs in the U.S.? I'm not clear if it something unique about DFW-LIM/BOG or just biased towards DFW.

Im pretty darn realistic about what can and cant be supported from DFW or anywhere else. Im not sure exactly what you are refering to, but I have said for years that the only two missing pieces of the DFW-South America puzzle were LIM and BOG. To be frank, that was no pie in the sky it was real. My point has been proven by the fact that AA is opening them.

Have I been critical of other hubs as well? Yes, but I have of DFW too and I use data to support my theories. Youre probably thinking of the PHX and IAH threads. As for those threads, there was a lot of pie in the sky theories about TG showing up at IAH or PHX having extensive service to Europe. I came down on those and produced facts to back them up. I did mention that I thought IAH could support another flight to Asia and give my thoughts on the situation. I also took a very good middle road on the CLT thread.

The better question is why you think all of Northern South America is the same? Service at CCS isnt indicative of every city in South America. Its like pointing at LAS and saying PHX can support the same thing. As for DFW-LIM, it was stopped during a time when AA and LAN didnt have the close ties. I suspect that at maturity both DFW-LIM and DFW-BOG will carry between 30-40 O&D. Right now, they are about half to 3/4 of that.
It is what it is...
 
laca773
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 11):

Like I said earlier, outside of LIM and BOG, being able to add frequency to CCS and GIG would be the only addition things I would like to see.

In Central America and Mexico, there is definately room for more. Having a plane like the E190 would be great for expansion to cities like SAP, MGA, or TGU while allowing destinations like PTY to be daily.

Agreed! I think it would allow AA to also upgauge some of the smaller cities in Mexico that are flown on ERJs as well. The E90s allow for new routes to be developed and others to be expanded where the CRJ/ERJ just are not feasible for reasons like range, etc..

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 24):

Im pretty darn realistic about what can and cant be supported from DFW or anywhere else. Im not sure exactly what you are refering to, but I have said for years that the only two missing pieces of the DFW-South America puzzle were LIM and BOG. To be frank, that was no pie in the sky it was real. My point has been proven by the fact that AA is opening

   ! You are and I have learned a lot from you! You seem to be a sincere, respectable person, LAXdude1023.

I see DFW-BOG being flown with a A319. It's a good size a/c for this market as well as having good perfomance/economic marks departing from El Dorado which is at a very high altitude. The 738 is a bit much for this market to start.
I'm not certain if UA still does, but IAH-BOG has been flown a great deal of the time with 73Gs versus 73Hs.
 
RodRB
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 21):
Doesn't POA still present operational issues due to the runway length? I know CWB definitely has to be a tag because of the altitude and runway length, but I'm curious to see if they can do it without weight restrictions. Very excited for the new service regardless!

TAP operates POA-LIS with the A330 and I think there is some kind of payload restrictions. AR used to fly some chartes from POA to MIA with the A340 a couple years ago.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 6):

Realistically what is left now for AA in Brazil ? I would think the next destinations will be VCP, FOR, NAT ?

VCP will probably get some flights from many carriers in 2014, when the new terminal will be ready.
 
hoons90
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:26 pm

Simply excellent news for Southern Brazil! I knew this was coming eventually...

I wonder if CM can start PTY-CWB as well.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 6):

Realistically what is left now for AA in Brazil ? I would think the next destinations will be VCP, FOR, NAT ?

What about Belém?
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm

Why is LATAM's alliance choice still under discussion? I thought that 1W was confirmed...

Wow, AA's MIA operation is just amazing, though it's not surprising seeing as it's probably the largest O&D market in North America for Latin Americans...
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:11 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 25):
I see DFW-BOG being flown with a A319. It's a good size a/c for this market as well as having good perfomance/economic marks departing from El Dorado which is at a very high altitude. The 738 is a bit much for this market to start.

The 319 and larger, longer range ERJ's could do wonders for DFW-Central America/BOG/CCS.

DFW-BOG/SAL/CCS would be great daily 319 markets (the Venezualan travel restrictions notwithstanding).

DFW-PTY/Honduras/Nicaragua would be great larger ERJ markets. That is, of course, if AA worked with them.
It is what it is...
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 20):
Apologies on SCL. However, the one weekly flight to CCS is indicative of the amount of traffic that DFW is able to support to South American markets excluding of Brazil / Argentina, and yes, Chile.

One weekly CCS flight is indicative of a Venezuelan government that refuses to allow AA to increase service to Caracas and add service to Valencia. AA has asked for more frequency on DFWCCS, MIACCS, JFKCCS and to add MIAVLN. All have been denied. Multiple times.
a.
 
SATexan
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:38 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 30):
AA has asked for more frequency on DFWCCS, MIACCS, JFKCCS and to add MIAVLN. All have been denied. Multiple times.

Mark, IIRC AA even asked for SJU-VLN once. Right?
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:04 pm

Quoting SATexan (Reply 31):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 30):
AA has asked for more frequency on DFWCCS, MIACCS, JFKCCS and to add MIAVLN. All have been denied. Multiple times.

Mark, IIRC AA even asked for SJU-VLN once. Right?

Yes. After attemps at MIAVLN didn't work, AA asked for SJUVLN.

I should make clear, though, AA eventually got permission for MIAVLN in 2011. The problem: the FAA says that VLN's security doesn't meet it's standards, so no VLN-U.S. flights are allowed currently.

Valencia is the single largest Miami-Latin America O&D market without non-stop service.

[Edited 2012-12-17 15:04:51]
a.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:27 pm

Wowowowowwowowowowowow!

As a Dallas native, I'm usually first to jump on these threads. I've been tethered to a deadline today so I'm late to the party, but this is AWESOME news! I wholly agree it's very indicative of TAM joining OneWorld.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 11):
Im the biggest DFW fan on this forum, but Id like to think Im somewhat realistic on what could be done.

Definition of humble brag there, bro! I may be a contender with you for the first part of that statement, but I will cede you the title for the second part.   

Quoting EricR (Reply 15):
Outside of Brazil and Argentina, AA has struggled with routes from DFW to South America.
Quoting EricR (Reply 17):
Correct me if I am wrong, but AA has started and stopped LIM, SCL, CCS before in the past. These routes do not seem to hang on long term.
Quoting EricR (Reply 20):
Apologies on SCL. However, the one weekly flight to CCS is indicative of the amount of traffic that DFW is able to support to South American markets excluding of Brazil / Argentina, and yes, Chile.

Be sure to check your facts next time before making sweeping statements.

The only route that you've mentioned here that is consistent with your assumption is DFWLIM, but market conditions have changed vividly since 2005 (when the route was ended purportedly due to "shifting capacity to Love Field in opposition to the repeal of Wright.")

First of all, AA is capitalizing big time on the growth of partner carrier LAN and LAN Peru throughout Peru and South America. The flights are well-timed for connections on either end.

Secondly, DFW will play a pivotal role in connecting traffic between Asia and Peru. Japan and Peru signed a free trade agreement which went into effect in March. Trade is very robust between the two countries The new DFW-ICN flight will also surely carry some Peruvian traffic in either direction in conjunction with the go-live of DFW-LIM. I'm willing to bet there was indeed some ulterior motive in announcing both routes at the same time.

Quoting EricR (Reply 23):
Why do you believe these factors will lead to the success of this route, when you tend to discount or completely dismiss these same factors (its not one market, local markets will grow, codeshares on both ends) when discussing the viability of routes from other hubs in the U.S.? I'm not clear if it something unique about DFW-LIM/BOG or just biased towards DFW.


You also have to analyze the markets in context: foreign traffic to DFW has been booming. Peru and Colombia are also thriving. It therefore doesn't take a genius to deduce why AA would see huge market potential in opening up DFW-BOG/LIM routes, especially if there are partner carriers on the opposite ends.

I also highly dislike it when people play the victim card on the DFW threads. Those same people are generally the ones who lambasted the likes of EK and QF when they announced they were launching services to DFW.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 30):
One weekly CCS flight is indicative of a Venezuelan government that refuses to allow AA to increase service to Caracas and add service to Valencia. AA has asked for more frequency on DFWCCS, MIACCS, JFKCCS and to add MIAVLN. All have been denied. Multiple times.


Yes. Recognizing that this absurdity exists is absolutely critical.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:07 am

MIA-POA-CWB would involve backtracking. Is CWB an airport like UIO that can only have longhaul flights land (as in IB's MAD-UIO-GYE-MAD and KL's similar routing from AMS)?
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:08 am

What percentage of US-South America traffic will be flown on 1W (including JJ)?
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 34):
MIA-POA-CWB would involve backtracking. Is CWB an airport like UIO that can only have longhaul flights land

Yes. CWB-MIA cannot be flown non-stop due to CWB's runway/altitude.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 6):
Realistically what is left now for AA in Brazil ? I would think the next destinations will be VCP, FOR, NAT ?

Fortaleza, I bet.

Also, there's Belem. While it's not the biggest market, it's about as far from Miami as Seattle, and can be flown with a 738. That's a huge advantage - cheap to operate.
a.
 
hoons90
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:20 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 34):

MIA-POA-CWB would involve backtracking. Is CWB an airport like UIO that can only have longhaul flights land (as in IB's MAD-UIO-GYE-MAD and KL's similar routing from AMS)?

Practically all major airports in Southern Brazil (south of GRU) have short runways, including CWB, FLN and POA. What makes CWB even less suitable for long haul operations is its altitude.

If we were to ever see long haul from CWB, I would expect it to be a Copa 737-700 to Panamá. That is unless the runway is extended.

MIA-CWB-AGT-MIA would be less of a detour but I'm not sure if the market is big enough. AA only recently reinstated flits to ASU.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
bogota
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:36 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 15):
Outside of Brazil and Argentina, AA has struggled with routes from DFW to South America. Therefore, BOG will be a stretch. There is not hardly any O&D traffic to support the route and most traffic out of Columbia heads towards the southeastern / eastern United States which AA handles via MIA.

It would be interesting to ask UA why they have a double daily flight to BOG from IAH and only a daily from EWR, that is if the premise that most pax are heading towards the E/SE.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 25):
I'm not certain if UA still does, but IAH-BOG has been flown a great deal of the time with 73Gs versus 73Hs.

They operate a double daily 73G regularly, this Christmas season it is flown by a double 752.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:53 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 20):
Apologies on SCL. However, the one weekly flight to CCS is indicative of the amount of traffic that DFW is able to support to South American markets excluding of Brazil / Argentina, and yes, Chile.

It's been a couple of years, but I used to watch US-SCL loads pretty closely, and I'd say that DFW-SCL had higher loads than MIA-SCL about 9-10 months a year on average.
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Super80DFW
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:10 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 39):
It's been a couple of years, but I used to watch US-SCL loads pretty closely, and I'd say that DFW-SCL had higher loads than MIA-SCL about 9-10 months a year on average.

I agree. This was also the case when I was nonreving into SCL. DFW-SCL was packed, and MIA-SCL was delightfully open.
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RCS763AV
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:33 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 25):
I'm not certain if UA still does, but IAH-BOG has been flown a great deal of the time with 73Gs versus 73Hs.

738s are used most of the time.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 25):
I see DFW-BOG being flown with a A319. It's a good size a/c for this market as well as having good perfomance/economic marks departing from El Dorado which is at a very high altitude. The 738 is a bit much for this market to start.

The A319 does seem like a good aircraft for the market, but the 738 could also be filled. There is a large amount of traffic heading to places like ORD, LAX, SFO and western canada the could easily use DFW as a connecting point. Also, the colombian community in texas is large.

Quoting bogota (Reply 38):
They operate a double daily 73G regularly, this Christmas season it is flown by a double 752.

They use the 738 regularly. The daily EWR is a 73G. Nice to hear they'll be using the 757 for the busy christmas season.
 
jfk777
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:53 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 6):
Realistically what is left now for AA in Brazil ? I would think the next destinations will be VCP, FOR, NAT ?

When AA flies to all the cities TAP flies to in Brazil, that is when they have saturated the market by destination.
 
bogota
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:00 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 41):
They use the 738 regularly

Never had one of those on my flights, always 737. Booked on a 752 this weekend but have a reservation for April both ways on a 737.
 
Tdan
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting bogota (Reply 38):
It would be interesting to ask UA why they have a double daily flight to BOG from IAH and only a daily from EWR, that is if the premise that most pax are heading towards the E/SE.

Large and growing local market with VERY high fares since UA is the only nonstop show in town. Colombia's oil and gas industry is also booming, so there's been significant increases in business traffic in addition to the growing VFR. Additionally, IAH is well situated geographically to capture all of the western US traffic going to BOG which is significant particularly from LAX and SFO. This is why I think we'll see AV at IAH soon, especially since they are now in *A

NYC-BOG, though much larger has significantly more competition (AV operates A332s on JFKBOG!) and as a result, yields are much lower. Also, NYC is poorly situated for flow traffic and I'd bet a significant percentage of UA's flow on EWR-BOG is actually traveling Europe-EWR-BOG at trash yields.
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:15 am

Quoting Tdan (Reply 44):
Large and growing local market with VERY high fares since UA is the only nonstop show in town. Colombia's oil and gas industry is also booming, so there's been significant increases in business traffic in addition to the growing VFR. Additionally, IAH is well situated geographically to capture all of the western US traffic going to BOG which is significant particularly from LAX and SFO. This is why I think we'll see AV at IAH soon, especially since they are now in *ANYC-BOG, though much larger has significantly more competition (AV operates A332s on JFKBOG!) and as a result, yields are much lower. Also, NYC is poorly situated for flow traffic and I'd bet a significant percentage of UA's flow on EWR-BOG is actually traveling Europe-EWR-BOG at trash yields.

Exactly, so there is really no reason a BOG-DFW flight will not operate with the same success.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:29 am

Quoting bogota (Reply 38):
It would be interesting to ask UA why they have a double daily flight to BOG from IAH and only a daily from EWR, that is if the premise that most pax are heading towards the E/SE.

That's a very simply answer. It was applied for when route authorities to Colombia were rare and highly desired, so airlines had a very different method of how to spread capacity around the network to Colombia.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 42):
When AA flies to all the cities TAP flies to in Brazil, that is when they have saturated the market by destination.

Getting close. AA is at nine; TP at ten.

Both fly/will fly to GRU, GIG, BSB, CNF, POA, REC and SSA.

AA to CWB and MAO.

TP to NAT, VCP and FOR

[Edited 2012-12-18 16:30:00]
a.
 
EricR
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 18):
DFWCCS and DFWSCL have ran continuously since launch in the 1990's.

DFWLIM ended once

Actually, AA did drop DFW-CCS. The route started back up on August 1, 2003 as a daily flight, but has since been reduced to its current 1 day per week.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 24):
Have I been critical of other hubs as well? Yes, but I have of DFW too and I use data to support my theories. Youre probably thinking of the PHX and IAH threads. As for those threads, there was a lot of pie in the sky theories about TG showing up at IAH or PHX having extensive service to Europe. I came down on those and produced facts to back them up. I did mention that I thought IAH could support another flight to Asia and give my thoughts on the situation. I also took a very good middle road on the CLT thread.

The issue is that you are inconsistent with the measures you use to evaluate the potential success of new routes out of DFW compared to the success of new routes from other hubs. The O&D on DFW-BOG is pathetic. If this were a new route with the same PDEWs out of another hub, you would point out how poor the O&D numbers and conclude that the route would not work. You tend to discount connecting traffic, local stimulation of demand, traffic from code share partners, etc. when discussing potential new international routes out of other hubs. However, with routes out of Dallas, you suddenly factor these items in. Factors such as connecting traffic, local stimulation of demand, traffic from code shares are consistent to all hubs. They are not exclusive to DFW.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 33):
Be sure to check your facts next time before making sweeping statements.

The only route that you've mentioned here that is consistent with your assumption is DFWLIM

Of the three routes I mentioned, only one was inaccurate (DFW-SCL). So, before you make such sweeping statements of the inaccuracy of my post, perhaps you should check your own. Regardless of what you may believe, every statement you've posted in the past has not been 100% accurate.

The fact that DFW-LIM was discontinued for years, that DFW-CCS was eliminated before and is today only running once weekly, and that DFW-BOG has not been launched until now is an indication of the level of demand from DFW to the northern half of South America.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 47):

What specifically are you talking about? I'm pretty realistic and typically factor those things in. Go read the first IAH thread. Over and over I said the anticipated new Asia route would be China whilst most everyone else said it was certainly going to be Korea or Vietnam.

Guess what happened with regards to new Asia flights to Houston??

Over and over I have stated that the two missing routes from DFW to South America were BOG and LIM. Guess what routes have been recently announced??

What you are trying to do is say that because DFW-CCS is once weekly, DFW-South America (minus Brazil and EZE) is unsuccessful. Forget the fact that AA has requested to increase it and been denied.

Now then, we're going off topic. If you want to step to me on this, send me a message and ill debate this all day long with you.
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:03 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 47):

I will not deny that I'm not always 100% accurate in my posts, but allow me to repost some of the claims you made in your initial posts that prompted me to call you out on them:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 33):
Quoting EricR (Reply 15):
Outside of Brazil and Argentina, AA has struggled with routes from DFW to South America.
Quoting EricR (Reply 17):
Correct me if I am wrong, but AA has started and stopped LIM, SCL, CCS before in the past. These routes do not seem to hang on long term.
Quoting EricR (Reply 20):
Apologies on SCL. However, the one weekly flight to CCS is indicative of the amount of traffic that DFW is able to support to South American markets excluding of Brazil / Argentina, and yes, Chile.

Be sure to check your facts next time before making sweeping statements.

For starters, I would hardly say DFW has "struggled" with routes to South America. One route elimination (LIM) over the past decade is insufficient to substantiate this. DFW to Latin America is not synonymous with ATL to Asia.

SCL, as others have pointed out, has been around since 1996. Its a winner route for cargo, and if/when AA and LATAM get ATI on North-South America, it's possible DFWSCL may be upgauged from daily to 10x weekly. This was a short-lived experiment that was actually tested in W11/12, but did not last since it appeared to piss off LAN and they retaliated by adding new MIASCL frequencies. With joint coordination over schedules, the extra flights to DFW may return.

LIM has indeed been dormant for some time, but the DFWLIM route existed many, many years prior to its elimination, as did DFWCCS before it was stopped (briefly, before it restarted). The meager frequency to CCS has less to do with the DFWCCS market and more to do with the allocations by the Venezuelan government.

Point being, none of these facts point signs towards routes "clinging on for dear life" or being "short-lived experiments." The only other Latin American market (to my knowledge) which has encountered problems is DFWPTY, which merely saw some frequency reduction rather than all out removal.

Does AA command the same type of operation out of DFW to Northern South America that it does out of Mia, or even DL from ATL or UA from IAH? No, but I don't believe anyone claimed that it did.
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