User avatar
usdcaguy
Topic Author
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:01 am

Tough news from AF. Looks like they are going to have "too many" flight attendants on staff starting next year and through 2015 as part of their restructuring efforts. A real shame. As usual, these numbers tend to decrease before cuts begin, but you have to wonder if they will all be eliminated through voluntary cuts. I really feel sorry for them and hope AF does not resort to layoffs.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...have-at-least-560-excess-crew.html

[Edited 2012-12-17 17:04:02]
 
anstar
Posts: 2864
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:23 am

And if they started working more hours to bring them closer to their 900 hour a year limit, I reckon you could double that number they could cut.
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:28 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 1):
And if they started working more hours to bring them closer to their 900 hour a year limit, I reckon you could double that number they could cut.

I doubt that, when crews fly 900 block hours, the number of sick leaves go up considerably.

I finished 2010 with 884 block hours under my belt and ended up on sick leave for two weeks in early 2011, I was exhausted. I finished 2011 with 864 block hours and was ready to just quit - my motivation had gone. This year I'll have about 725 or so, and I have regained my motivation and wish to fly for a few more years.

For the body, working one hour in the air equals 1,5 hours on the ground, so my body feels like it has flown 1350 hours plus all those hours on the ground when you are still on duty. Couple that with getting up at 0300hrs five days in a row and working 10-12 hours every day - it wears you out.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
anstar
Posts: 2864
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:18 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 2):
I doubt that, when crews fly 900 block hours, the number of sick leaves go up considerably.

But for a long haul FA - getting to 900 is not too difficult. I remeber chatting to some FA's on AF and they said they would normally do 2 and occasionally 3 long hauls a month.

Look at Virgin and BA and that number would be 4-6.
 
Eagleboy
Posts: 1699
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:29 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:21 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 3):
But for a long haul FA - getting to 900 is not too difficult. I remember chatting to some FA's on AF and they said they would normally do 2 and occasionally 3 long hauls a month.
Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 2):
I doubt that, when crews fly 900 block hours, the number of sick leaves go up considerably.

It depends on your fleet and shift pattern. From 2004-2008 (5 consecutive years) I hit 900 hours every year. I got 7-10 days near the end with 'Do Not Change' notation on my rostered duties. This was all early shifts and short haul, 4-5 widebody longhaul trips per year. I was fine, got up at 4-5am, I finished by 2pm each day,was able to have a nap and have a life in the evening.

In the 2 years after that I was hit 780 and 820 hours but the duties were all over the place. I was a 40/60 mix of long/short haul. Minimum turnarounds were the norm (a rostering target perhaps?) I was exhausted most of the time and my quality of life dropped drastically. (I was sick a lot more but still worked as my company started to financially penalise sickness)

In the last 18 months I am now 90% mid/longhaul..... 8-9 1-nite stopovers every 2 months. I am still tired most of the time but that is bodyclock confusion rather than exhaustion. I have done 900 block hours in the last 365 days. 4 mid/longhaul trips in a month can easily generate 70 hours, add in a few A320 hops and you can get to 85-90 no bother.
 
Lufthansa747
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 7:45 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:44 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 2):
I finished 2010 with 884 block hours under my belt and ended up on sick leave for two weeks in early 2011, I was exhausted. I finished 2011 with 864 block hours and was ready to just quit - my motivation had gone. This year I'll have about 725 or so, and I have regained my motivation and wish to fly for a few more years.

I feel for you but in a world with Air Asia, Cebu Pacific and the like F/As flying like 7-8 sectors daily, that's what will happen.
Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
 
foxxray
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 5:06 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:12 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 3):
But for a long haul FA - getting to 900 is not too difficult. I remeber chatting to some FA's on AF and they said they would normally do 2 and occasionally 3 long hauls a month.

Maybe back in 1960 ! They currently do 4 long hauls a month (and a very few times only 3 or up to 5).
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 2):
For the body, working one hour in the air equals 1,5 hours on the ground, so my body feels like it has flown 1350 hours plus all those hours on the ground when you are still on duty. Couple that with getting up at 0300hrs five days in a row and working 10-12 hours every day - it wears you out.

Be thankful you don't have a desk job, like most folks, working 40-60 hours/week ....you'd need a lot of sick time for having to work 2500 hours a year ....working 5-6 days a week, every week  


Jimbo

[Edited 2012-12-18 04:35:06]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
uaord2000
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:26 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:42 pm

Wait a second here. Are we talking 900 block hours a year? As in 75 per month?

At United, I am flying 1500 block hours in 2012. 900 is NOTHING!!!!!
 
76er
Posts: 446
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:48 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 7):
Be thankful you don't have a desk job, like most folks, working 40-60 hours/week ....you'd need a lot of sick time for having to work 2500 hours a year ....working 5-6 days a week, every week

In the US perhaps. On the east side of the pond you'll find the far majority of deskjobs working MAX 40 hours a week, most of the time a lot less. No jetlag, no shiftlag, off during weekends to watch your kids play soccer... . and so on.
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:53 pm

Quoting 76er (Reply 9):
In the US perhaps. On the east side of the pond you'll find the far majority of deskjobs working MAX 40 hours a week, most of the time a lot less. No jetlag, no shiftlag, off during weekends to watch your kids play soccer... . and so on.

Still twice as many hours ....

So you are working every day with no days off? ...or are you getting 15 days+ off/month?


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
76er
Posts: 446
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:07 pm

Yes, total hours are less. The hours that you do make are much more tiring. Noise, low humidity, starting your 10 hour workday at 10 PM, then do the same thing a few days later, but this time starting at 7AM. You should try it for a few years..  
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:15 pm

They have way too many pilots as well. An A320 driver I know at AF will fly Orly to Brest (50 min sector) and he's done for the day, off to a hotel. Long stretches of time off, a week at a time. They are hoping to let the number fall due to natural wastage rather than furlough / sack pilots who have had a lot of time and money spent on training. I think they have a way to go before the numbers are where they should be.

Quoting anstar (Reply 3):
I remeber chatting to some FA's on AF and they said they would normally do 2 and occasionally 3 long hauls a month. Look at Virgin and BA and that number would be 4-6.

No-one ever accused the French of overwork!
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 7):
Be thankful you don't have a desk job, like most folks, working 40-60 hours/week

We can work up to 60 hours in a five-day period and we do that. 180 duty hours a month is not uncommon, with 100 block hours (which is max per month). Plus the added strain of working in a pressurised tube, which makes the body feel it's flying for 150 block hours. I work two-three weekends a month, have 8-10 nights in hotels a month. I love flying, but the glory days are over.

I certainly understand that most airlines and passengers want young blondes that fly for minimum wage for two years and then leave. But airfares will not be that much cheaper with minimum wage and minimum-experience crews - the airlines will benefit financially while crews and paying customers continue to complain - just look at Ryanair.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting 76er (Reply 11):
You should try it for a few years.

I wouldn't know what to do with all that spare time  
Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 13):
but the glory days are over.

There never were any glory days in the aviation industry in my lifetime .. maybe a FA on a Super Constellation in the day!


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
fa4af
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 11:42 pm

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:22 pm

Hello everyone,
I really enjoy reading about colleagues flying imaginary rosters such as ORY BES then off to a hotel, long periods of days off after that and so on. I have been flying for the last 15 years with AF, of which 12 on long haul sectors. I have never flown only 2 flights in a month, unles I had a substantial holiday period during that same month. Comparing working hours is almost always misleading, as airlines differ in the ways they log working hours, such as briefing times, days off, on call duties, training and so on.
I know within the AF/KL group, despite following the exact same trend, our colleagues from KL might enjoy a 6 day off time after a 24h layover in LAX, for instance, and we don't. On the other hand, we stay 48h in LAX and only 2 days off at home after that flight. Then in the course of that same month, we will have a 7 day break at home. Wich is best? In the long run, it's all about balancing your private life at home with your work-related absences. It's always easy and reassuring to make the others look lazy or more privileged as a justification for your own grudges. Fair enough.
Back to the FA redundancies at both AF and KL by the way, indeed, everyone is concerned that we might not find enough voluntaries among those who could technically leave. As someone pointed out in this forum, we are probably going to sign Transform 2015 and a lot of the flight roster changes will induce more redundancies through shorter layover times, fewer days off through the year and up to two FA's less working specific aircraft configurations such as the A380 with a half full Premiere cabin. Negotiations are well under way and anything that comes up in the news right now could only be sheer speculation.
Bons vols à tous
Enjoy your flights everyone
 
JRadier
Posts: 3943
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting fa4af (Reply 15):
I really enjoy reading about colleagues flying imaginary rosters such as ORY BES then off to a hotel,

And even then, if it existed it could perfectly be a result of the way a schedule is constructed as well (for example to pick up an overnighting aircraft early in the morning.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9864
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 2):
I doubt that, when crews fly 900 block hours, the number of sick leaves go up considerably.

120 work days per year sounds tough  
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
120 work days per year sounds tough

Try 170-180 work days per year, like I have, that's a bit tougher  
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9864
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 18):
Try 170-180 work days per year, like I have, that's a bit tougher

That's barely half a year, makes me want to cry!

900 hours based on the 7.5 hour Norwegian work day is only 120 days.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1538
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:41 pm

Quoting uaord2000 (Reply 8):
Wait a second here. Are we talking 900 block hours a year? As in 75 per month?

At United, I am flying 1500 block hours in 2012. 900 is NOTHING!!!!!

And at a regional, you can look at an average of one block hour for every two hours of duty time. Working a five or six day stretch at a time, you still don't even feel normal after a day or two off. The am-pm schedule flips, long days and short nights just turn you into mush.
 
76er
Posts: 446
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:02 pm

Those 900 are block hours flight duty, from pushback till parking. For a normal flightduty day you can add about 2 hours reporting on/off time. These hours do not include 'office' duty like simulator, fight safety, CRM and security recurrent training. Just to name a few.
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 19):
900 hours based on the 7.5 hour Norwegian work day is only 120 days

So? That doesn't apply to aviation. Aviation is exempted from work rules set by the Government - aviation personnel and medical doctors are not covered by work-hour limitations like others are - bitter irony as work done by these professionals can have terrible consequences if they are not "on the ball" when they absolutely need to be.

BLOCK HOURS are from pushback till parking. This coming Sunday my roster says my duty hours are 12hrs 15mins but my block hours are 9 hours. Last week I had one day where my duty hours were 10hrs 30mins but my block hours were 3 hrs 55mins(!)... looking at my roster now, and I see that I often have 3-4 hours in addition to my block hours during a workday.

I am still on duty when the aircraft is on the ground. We are deboarding, checking, cleaning, changing aircraft, changing crew members (thus requiring a new briefing), boarding etc etc... we are still in uniform doing aviation-related work, often with passengers around every way you look. Ground time is not free time - DUTY HOURS are the hours I am at work, and they can be up to 14 hours - almost twice as many as the average pencil pusher has during his workday behind a desk.

I assume AF crews have similar days, hence pushing their limits even more will just wear people out - and that costs a lot too, even for the airlines.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 22):
DUTY HOURS are the hours I am at work, and they can be up to 14 hours - almost twice as many as the average pencil pusher has during his workday behind a desk.

....except you don't do it 5 days a week, every week  


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:01 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 23):
....except you don't do it 5 days a week, every week

True. I do it on average 4 days a week, every week  
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2511
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:32 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 12):

No-one ever accused the French of overwork!

No-one ever accused the British of being 'fair and balanced.'
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Topic Author
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:26 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 25):


No-one ever accused the British of being 'fair and balanced.'

You could say the same about Americans. Good ol' Anglo-Saxon "work ethic" nonsense. You have one life to live...make sure it's as much for you as possible.
 
Aviaco
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 11:53 pm

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:41 am

They are talking abot block hours, not about work time.

I give an example for a typical day of an european airline:

STR 06:00 - 06:55 FRA
FRA 09:10 - 10:15 PRG
PRG10:55 - 12:15 FRA
FRA 13:15 - 14:00 STR

Check in is 60 minutes before departure and check out is 30 minutes after arrival.
On this day you have 4.05 block kours, but a work time of 9:30 hours.
 
User avatar
a36001
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:47 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:34 am

Sounds to me some people on this thread have had a bad day at work?  
 
mozart
Posts: 2022
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 25):
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 12):

No-one ever accused the French of overwork!

No-one ever accused the British of being 'fair and balanced.'

Except that "fairness and balance" of the Brits have zero to do with this topic, whereas what is considered "a lot" or "too much" work in France is the essence of this thread.

Unless you want to prove to us that the wide-spread in attitude in France is one of zeal and enthusiasm about working (you'll need to come up with some very good arguments to make that point).
 
User avatar
b727fa
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:32 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 1):

Bwahaaaaaaahaaaaaa! 900 hr will put you on sick leave!
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 7485
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting Mozart (Reply 29):
Except that "fairness and balance" of the Brits have zero to do with this topic, whereas what is considered "a lot" or "too much" work in France is the essence of this thread.

Unless you want to prove to us that the wide-spread in attitude in France is one of zeal and enthusiasm about working (you'll need to come up with some very good arguments to make that point).

Well right now you have workers at a steelworks making the news every day, they have been paid to do nothing for 18 months and are pretty upset about it.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

RE: AF To Have 500-600 Too Many Flight Attendants

Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:53 am

This thread has drifted from Air France having too many F/As to a debate over working time. It will be locked for all future posts.
Blue
All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AS512, Bing [Bot], Cointrin330, FLJ, goldorak, Google Adsense [Bot], JayJ, kriskim, MKEdude, mpj, mtnwest1979, PSAjet17, psychostang, sutrakhk, VAAengineer, VapourTrails, vhqpa, zkncj, zstpe and 292 guests