goldenjet707
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UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:50 pm

Per Airlinerroute UA is going to go from six daily EWR-LAX to 14 daily by summer 2013. Same goes for EWR-SFO.
 
spiritair97
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:53 pm

That's they're answer VX entering EWR.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:56 pm

Being discussed in conjunction with these 2 threads:

OAG Changes 12/21/2012:AA/BA/B6/DL/F9/NKUA/US (by enilria Dec 18 2012 in Civil Aviation)

EWR For Sale On Virgin America (by dwcontroller Dec 10 2012 in Civil Aviation)
 
goldenjet707
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:01 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 2):

Me thinks it still qualifies for having it's own thread.
 
spiritair97
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting goldenjet707 (Reply 3):

I agree, since it really focuses on what UA is doing in response to VX, and maybe overreacting a little bit? I mean I know that an airline wants to defend their turf, but they obviously have a reason for only flying 6 flights a day, and fleet planning obviously isn't an issue. I'm just curious as to what point at which it becomes worth it to bleed money on a route (or two) just to not have to coexist.
 
tommy767
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:24 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 4):
I agree, since it really focuses on what UA is doing in response to VX, and maybe overreacting a little bit?

UA has already done this on ORD-SFO when VX entered: they upped it to 14-16 times a day or something like that.

EWR-LAX/SFO does not need this kind of frequency -- especially with PS over at JFK. It will be interesting of what types of aircraft they will use. I'm sure elites will love this as even with the recent 757 and 767 adds on these routes it's almost impossible ot upgrade.
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STT757
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:00 pm

While in the long run this move is meant to stiffle competition and keep EWR's fares the highest in the Nation, short term if you travel EWR-California this fantastic news. Lots of new options, and as mentioned more opportunities for upgrades which have historically been difficult on these routes even during the CO years. I've traveled JFK-SFO/LAX on UA P.S. a few times since the merger just because I couldn't get any rewards or upgrades on the flights from EWR to LAX/SFO.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
roseflyer
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:11 pm

Hourly service on 737s during peak times will provide options, although I can't imagine anyone demanding that much frequency on a 6 hour route. The flights every half hour EWR-LAX/SFO require 3-4 redeyes back for airplane repositioning which is excessive in my mind. 4 SFO-EWR redeyes is a waste of 737s.

That's a lot of capacity. If they had more PMCO 752s, they could beat VX with a better product, but the A319s and 738s won't compete up front with VX.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
B747forever
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting goldenjet707 (Thread starter):
Per Airlinerroute UA is going to go from six daily EWR-LAX to 14 daily by summer 2013. Same goes for EWR-SFO.



Seriously, doubling the frequency/capacity just because VX enters with 3 daily flights? 14 daily flights to LAX sounds crazy.

The war is on...
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:29 pm

Welcome to the free market folks! VX has a better product IMO but folks may yet again opt for saving $3.00 r/t and fly UA   More folks I know though are willing to pay a bit more for better service. The airlines seem to be trying to capture that with "un-bundled" things such as better meal options, Y+ etc.
 
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airzim
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):
The flights every half hour EWR-LAX/SFO require 3-4 redeyes back for airplane repositioning which is excessive in my mind.

Who says they're going back to EWR? You can send those 737's and A320's anywhere in the system from SFO. The beauty have having a hub at both ends.
 
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STT757
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):
That's a lot of capacity. If they had more PMCO 752s, they could beat VX with a better product,



I think eventually they will do this, I remember when CO replaced their A300s on EWR-LAX/SFO with 3x daily DC-10s from EWR to LAX and SFO with their new BusinessFirst cabins. If they can replace a couple more Trans-Atlantic 757 routes with 763s and replace the sCO BusinessFirst equipped 757s operating EWR-Florida with sUA 757s they might have enough to operate 9 daily each EWR-LAX and EWR-SFO. Also keep in mind UA's PS services are going to be reconfigured to look identical to sCO's 757s, only with a larger BusinessFirst cabin. They should mix in the JFK and EWR 757s, some sCO 757s operate from JFK and some sUA PS 757s operate from EWR.
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as739x
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:54 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):
If they had more PMCO 752s, they could beat VX with a better product

IF...But they don't have more

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):
The flights every half hour EWR-LAX/SFO require 3-4 redeyes back for airplane repositioning which is excessive in my mind.

Flight SFO-EWR are hourly till 5pm (example 6.10.13) and your correct, 4 red-eyes from SFO and 2 red-eyes from LAX.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 8):
Seriously, doubling the frequency/capacity just because VX enters with 3 daily flights? 14 daily flights to LAX sounds crazy.

It's a little of both. This is free market and a response to VX. However load to EWR from the West Coast hubs are really heavy as it is and a increase could have been warranted before VX decided to join the fray.



Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 9):
Welcome to the free market folks! VX has a better product IMO but folks may yet again opt for saving $3.00 r/t and fly UA  

Or heaven to bid cheaper tickets to travel to roughly 50 more destinations from LAX and SFO that VX doesn't offer!
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
B747forever
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 12):
However load to EWR from the West Coast hubs are really heavy as it is and a increase could have been warranted before VX decided to join the fray.



Yes, but you normally do not increase the frequency from 6 daily to 14 daily flights at once.
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tommy767
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):
Hourly service on 737s during peak times will provide options, although I can't imagine anyone demanding that much frequency on a 6 hour route. The flights every half hour EWR-LAX/SFO require 3-4 redeyes back for airplane repositioning which is excessive in my mind. 4 SFO-EWR redeyes is a waste of 737s.

These are dummy schedules. UA will update them as the adjusted date gets closer. Doubt it will be 12x 737
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as739x
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 13):

When was the last time UA operated 6 daily SFO-EWR?? There are 9 scheduled tomorrow. Even 10 scheduled on X-mas day when there is a schedule reduction.

Actually summer schedule was roughly 10-12 last summer from SFO. Also, none of these new flights are wide-body's compared to last summer that has a few 767's. The actual seat increase this summer is not as high as one would believe.

Example June 6, 2013 SFO-EWR 10 x 737-800, 1 x 319, 5 x 320's
LAX-EWR 13 x 737-800, 1 x 757

There are not even any 739's mixed in here. So this is a pure frequency thing, which we all know is how US airlines operate.
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enilria
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:36 pm

I'll say what I've said on the other threads. I've been watching the OAG for a very long time and I've never seen such a ridiculously large frequency increase in a market due to competitive incursion. There have been cases where DL/NW have retaliated on ancillary routes for new competitors, but I've never seen it this bad in the routes added. I have a few takeaways.

1) to spend this much money, UA must mint money on these routes
2) this will dramatically increase their cost by adding that many flights and probably lower their revenue due to matching VX. I would assume that means the route will now lose money.
3) to sabotage the profitability of their own route to run out a competitor and (I'm sure) reverse it all after VX is bloodied and gone is extremely anti-competitive
4) if the govt is going to allow us to only have 4 airlines in the USA, they can no longer allow this type of behavior. It's time for the govt to take a tougher stand.
5) before it was the equivalent of Kroger opening a new store across from the new Safeway market. This is the equivalent of opening new Krogers on all sides of the Safeway to block access to their parking lot. A couple of extra flights is rentable, a 75% frequency increase in markets already well-served is over the line.
6) given UA's childish punishment of Houston for supporting competition to them at HOU, this is unsurprising, but it is time to investigate UA for anticompetitive behavior. They are the largest airline after all.
 
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 15):

I am talking about LAX-EWR which is different to SFO-EWR.
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lhcvg
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 14):
These are dummy schedules. UA will update them as the adjusted date gets closer. Doubt it will be 12x 737

I also wouldn't be surprised to see some eliminated/combined in addition to equipment swaps. I figure they will only end up flying 10-12x per day on any kind of consistent basis, especially if they upgauge more than a couple a day.
 
as739x
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 17):
I am talking about LAX-EWR which is different to SFO-EWR.

That being said. As I stated above, the overall increase is with smaller aircraft. So the seat increase is not as much as one would be led to believe.

And to respond to your Reply 13. When new competition comes into your market, yes you do increase like this normally.

As Enilria just posted, there are the reason. And UA and AA both did this against VX in both ORD and DFW markets. NW uses this method for years. This is normal to protect turf.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
tommy767
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 15):
When was the last time UA operated 6 daily SFO-EWR?? There are 9 scheduled tomorrow. Even 10 scheduled on X-mas day when there is a schedule reduction.

When CO and UA were merging in Summer 2011 legacy UA flew 4-5 daily on SFO-EWR whereas CO flew 4-6 daily. Since the merger they've had SFO-EWR on 9-10x a day.

Quoting as739x (Reply 15):
Example June 6, 2013 SFO-EWR 10 x 737-800, 1 x 319, 5 x 320's
LAX-EWR 13 x 737-800, 1 x 757

Again, you are looking too far in advance. These are dummy schedules.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 18):
I also wouldn't be surprised to see some eliminated/combined in addition to equipment swaps. I figure they will only end up flying 10-12x per day on any kind of consistent basis, especially if they upgauge more than a couple a day.

Probably quite a bit of 319/320, 738, pre-merger UA 757, ex-CO 757, and 787 if I had to guess.
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lhcvg
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:10 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20):
Probably quite a bit of 319/320, 738, pre-merger UA 757, ex-CO 757, and 787 if I had to guess.

Oh no doubt! Probably a bit of everything at some point.
 
ikramerica
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:31 pm

This should open up a lot of award seats this summer. Usually, LAX-EWR is the sticky wicket when trying to get to the EU from LAX. With so many flights, it benefits the LAX FF base greatly. That's assuming the airline doesn't hoard the seats anyway and fly the planes at 60% LF...
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B747forever
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 19):
13. When new competition comes into your market, yes you do increase like this normally.



I know that it is normal for the established carrier to dump capacity, but this seems really excessive.
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as739x
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 23):

I'll leave you to your opinion

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20):
Again, you are looking too far in advance. These are dummy schedules.

Meaning they can add larger aircraft as need, meaning the increase incapacity is warranted.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
B747forever
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:53 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 24):
I'll leave you to your opinion



I would love to have an example of other city pairs that got that much frequency/capacity increase when an competitor entered the market, such as ORD and DFW that you mention. I might have missed any such cases.
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tommy767
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 24):
Meaning they can add larger aircraft as need, meaning the increase incapacity is warranted.

No, it's simply a placeholder until the date gets closer....it's common sense.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
Rdh3e
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:36 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
3) to sabotage the profitability of their own route to run out a competitor and (I'm sure) reverse it all after VX is bloodied and gone is extremely anti-competitive

In VX's current state, I'd say it was probably extremely arrogant of them to try this. Unless they were naive enough to think this wouldn't happen, which would make them stupid. Choose your poison. They had what, 70M in cash at the end of last quarter and burning more? Tell me how it's a smart move to "poke the bear".
 
as739x
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:39 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 25):
SFO-ORD when VX entered the markets 10 daily to 17 daily by UA

4/20/11:
06:00 SFO 12:10 ORD UA 664 United Airlines 763 00 4hrs 10mins
08:50 SFO 14:56 ORD UA 134 United Airlines 752 00 4hrs 6mins
09:49 SFO 15:55 ORD UA 972 United Airlines 763 00 4hrs 6mins
10:55 SFO 17:10 ORD UA 906 United Airlines 752 00 4hrs 15mins
11:42 SFO 17:53 ORD UA 102 United Airlines 752 00 4hrs 11mins
13:45 SFO 20:00 ORD UA 760 United Airlines 752 00 4hrs 15mins
15:55 SFO 21:52 ORD UA 150 United Airlines 752 00 3hrs 57mins
18:52 SFO 00:56 ORD UA 152 United Airlines 320 00 4hrs 4mins
22:50 SFO 04:48 ORD UA 338 United Airlines 752 00 3hrs 58mins
23:20 SFO 05:17 ORD UA 158 United Airlines 752 00 3hrs 57mins

5/31/11:
06:00 SFO 12:10 ORD UA 590 United Airlines 763 00 4hrs 10mins
06:15 SFO 12:27 ORD UA 684 United Airlines 319 00 4hrs 12mins
06:57 SFO 13:07 ORD UA 616 United Airlines 752 00 4hrs 10mins
08:57 SFO 15:03 ORD UA 728 United Airlines 752 00 4hrs 6mins
09:20 SFO 15:27 ORD UA 261 United Airlines 319 00 4hrs 7mins
09:49 SFO 15:55 ORD UA 972 United Airlines 763 00 4hrs 6mins
10:55 SFO 17:10 ORD UA 906 United Airlines 752 00 4hrs 15mins
11:47 SFO 17:58 ORD UA 302 United Airlines 752 00 4hrs 11mins
13:45 SFO 19:55 ORD UA 760 United Airlines 752 00 4hrs 10mins
14:38 SFO 20:56 ORD UA 874 United Airlines 319 00 4hrs 18mins
16:15 SFO 22:17 ORD UA 495 United Airlines 320 00 4hrs 2mins
17:05 SFO 23:05 ORD UA 1685 * United Airlines 738 00 4hrs
17:50 SFO 23:51 ORD UA 603 United Airlines 752 00 4hrs 1min
18:50 SFO 01:00 ORD UA 477 United Airlines 320 00 4hrs 10mins
22:10 SFO 04:10 ORD UA 1048 * United Airlines 738 00 4hrs
22:53 SFO 04:46 ORD UA 338 United Airlines 777 00 3hrs 53mins
23:59 SFO 05:56 ORD UA 774 United Airlines 752 00 3hrs 57mins

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 26):
No, it's simply a placeholder until the date gets closer....it's common sense.

I understand what it is. I'm not understanding why personal about it. I understand the practice, I have been in the industry a long time.

[Edited 2012-12-19 12:45:47]

[Edited 2012-12-19 12:46:23]
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
B747forever
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 28):
SFO-ORD when VX entered the markets 12 daily to 21 daily bu UA



That is also a very large increase, very much comparable to the current one. However, isnt UA back to about 12 daily flights after failing to drive away VX?
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as739x
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:04 pm

12/20/13 SFO-ORD 14 flights

And yes VX has not pulled from the market or expanded in the market, but only they know what their numbers are on the route. So you can't really say that UA's move was a failure.

I think its more the practice of adding the flights when the new entrant enters the market and flood it, not sustaining the service.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
B747forever
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 30):
I think its more the practice of adding the flights when the new entrant enters the market and flood it, not sustaining the service.



Correct, but the point with flooding the market is to try to make the competitor to pull out of the route, which VX obviously didnt do at ORD.

I am convinced that VX will wind it through again. They know what they are up to, and I am sure that VX expects anything but a smooth entrance into UA's turf markets.
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as739x
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 31):
and I am sure that VX expects anything but a smooth entrance into UA's turf markets.

Exactly the point!!
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
B747forever
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:32 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 32):
Quoting B747forever (Reply 31):
and I am sure that VX expects anything but a smooth entrance into UA's turf markets.

Exactly the point!!



Good then.

Will be interesting to see how long UA will keep the frequency at 14 daily flights to LAX. Such large capacity dump will also affect them in a negative way with lower yields.
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Rdh3e
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:32 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 29):
That is also a very large increase, very much comparable to the current one. However, isnt UA back to about 12 daily flights after failing to drive away VX?
Quoting as739x (Reply 30):
12/20/13 SFO-ORD 14 flights

Well I think that's really a seasonal reduction, not really a draw down. Next summer is 16x for the day I checked.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:32 pm

Strategy or not, I need to fly this route 5 times or so next year so this is great news!
 
as739x
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 34):

Well I think that's really a seasonal reduction, not really a draw down. Next summer is 16x for the day I checked.

Yep. winter schedule. I didn't look into next summers schedule. Thanks for looking that up!
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DocLightning
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:41 pm

And then people wonder why NYC airspace is so congested.

Could it have to do with the fact that 50 aircraft fly NYC-SFO alone every day? Now add up all the other ridiculous frequencies to other markets and you have a serious congestion problem./
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B747forever
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
And then people wonder why NYC airspace is so congested.

Could it have to do with the fact that 50 aircraft fly NYC-SFO alone every day? Now add up all the other ridiculous frequencies to other markets and you have a serious congestion problem./



Really doesnt matter from where an aircraft comes from, be it 50 aircraft from LHR or PHL. If you want to manage the congestion, put a limit on the number of available slots. Then it is up to the airline to decide how they want to use those slots.
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airzim
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 31):
Correct, but the point with flooding the market is to try to make the competitor to pull out of the route, which VX obviously didnt do at ORD.

I am convinced that VX will wind it through again. They know what they are up to, and I am sure that VX expects anything but a smooth entrance into UA's turf markets.

At that stage length its going to be harder to sustain. jetBlue has found similar issues with transcon flying, you need to drive good RASM to keep these flights around. UA has the benefit of hubs at either end, and can distribute the CASM across multiple flights, economy of scales with ground staff, etc. Coupled with some significant long haul for both hubs, they could flood the local O&D with cheap fares and drive to improve yields on the international O&D sectors (EWR-SYD, SFO-BOM). VX is point to point and they're going to get what the get. Any connections to LAX or LAS through SFO is just going to make it worse.

We know VX is losing money hand over fist. So I'm not convinced their presence in ORD is actually beneficial except for driving cash in the door.

This airline was doomed from the start once they decided to hub in the West Coast. There is just not enough domestic traffic flow to make this work in any location. SFO is the best of the ugly sisters but the inherent problems of the West have not gone away.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
before it was the equivalent of Kroger opening a new store across from the new Safeway market. This is the equivalent of opening new Krogers on all sides of the Safeway to block access to their parking lot.

It is not even REMOTELY the same thing. United is in no way preventing passengers from boarding a VX plane.

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
6) given UA's childish punishment of Houston for supporting competition to them at HOU, this is unsurprising, but it is time to investigate UA for anticompetitive behavior.

No it isn't. Responding to competition isn't being anticompetitive. If VX wishes to offer 14x a day, there is no barrier to do so.


Dumping - offering too much service and intentionally losing money on it - is illegal. This is far from so.

Its not United's fault Virgin is smaller than them, and in America just because you don't like something doesn't mean it should be illegal.


NS
 
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 9):
folks may yet again opt for saving $3.00 r/t and fly UA

If passengers were smart, which they aren't, they would try to exclusively fly Virgin, thereby ruining UA strategy and making sure low fares and higher service levels are to stay.

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
4) if the govt is going to allow us to only have 4 airlines in the USA, they can no longer allow this type of behavior. It's time for the govt to take a tougher stand.

''Dumping'' is illegal after WTO rules. In economic terms, this is called penetration pricing. The problem in this particular case is that the traditional and legally applicable definition of ''dumping'' is hard to apply - unless one could prove that UA has been profitable one these flights, is no longer profitable under the new schedule and that the new schedule came into existence for no other reason than VX's market entry.

This is extremely difficult to prove and in a country like the USA, unlikely to happen.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:27 pm

Airspace wont be more crowded....EWR is slot controlled.

Which, as I said in the other thread, really makes this adjustment STUPID,

What are they cutting to have 28 slots a day dedicated to this bloodbath?
 
N62NA
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:29 pm

I started off in the OAG thread on this by posting that this kind of frequency is insane.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 5):
EWR-LAX/SFO does not need this kind of frequency -- especially with PS over at JFK. It will be interesting of what types of aircraft they will use.

Yep, doesn't require this amount of frequency. LAX will be almost all 738, with just 1 or 2 752s.

SFO loses the 763 and is going to be 738/A319.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 5):
I'm sure elites will love this as even with the recent 757 and 767 adds on these routes it's almost impossible ot upgrade.

Less seats to upgrade to per flight. And they're 738s - not exactly luxurious for a 6 hour flight.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):
the A319s and 738s won't compete up front with VX.

I stated the same in the OAG thread on this - many disagreed with me. VX has the better product, definitely.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 9):
Welcome to the free market folks! VX has a better product

Yep.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
And then people wonder why NYC airspace is so congested.

Yep. Which is why I avoid flying into NYC and take Amtrak up there instead.  
 
ikramerica
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting something (Reply 41):
''Dumping'' is illegal after WTO rules. In economic terms, this is called penetration pricing. The problem in this particular case is that the traditional and legally applicable definition of ''dumping'' is hard to apply - unless one could prove that UA has been profitable one these flights, is no longer profitable under the new schedule and that the new schedule came into existence for no other reason than VX's market entry.

Well, as a UA customer, I've felt that EWR-LAX was underserved. UA was trying to push more international connections through IAD, ORD and IAH, making it hard to get on those flights during summer. So adding some frequency and capacity is warranted. But from 6-14 is a large increase, so it wouldn't be hard to prove that at lease some was in response to VX.

But "response" to VX is not the same as dumping.

Is the intent to lose money and kill of VX?

Is the intent to make lower margins but sell more seats after seeing that VX has demonstrated higher demand than thought?

Is the intent to add frequency to better connect to international connections come summer?

Are they reducing aircraft size while adding frequency so overall capacity increase isn't as great as it seems?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
something
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 44):
But "response" to VX is not the same as dumping.

Is the intent to lose money and kill of VX?
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 44):
Are they reducing aircraft size while adding frequency so overall capacity increase isn't as great as it seems?

Which is exactly why proving this is near impossible. In Germany, all gas station raise or lower their prices almost simultaneously - and they have yet to prove any hints of collusion between the oil companies.

Technically, UA can let this operation run under the guise of a ''training excersize'', to get cabin crew and pilots trained on the aircraft type. Now they're not operating the route at a loss, but as a tax-deductible business expense. Some crafty lawyers and auditors will probably find some even nicer loopholes.

In either way, if I were to fly this route I'd fly VX on principle.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
N62NA
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:55 pm

Quoting something (Reply 45):

Technically, UA can let this operation run under the guise of a ''training excersize'', to get cabin crew and pilots trained on the aircraft type. Now they're not operating the route at a loss, but as a tax-deductible business expense.

I don't think that's how the tax laws work - at least here in the USA. You take all your revenue, deduct all expenses, deduct any tax credits and that's your profit (or loss).
 
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STT757
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 43):
And they're 738s - not exactly luxurious for a 6 hour flight.

I've been on extremely long Trans-Cons, SEA-EWR, and I've been on surprising quick flights. For example today UA #1127 flew SFO-EWR in 4.16 hrs.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...7/history/20121219/0632Z/KSFO/KEWR

I don't understand the complaints that a 738 is not a good aircraft for a four hour flight.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 47):
I've been on extremely long Trans-Cons, SEA-EWR, and I've been on surprising quick flights. For example today UA #1127 flew SFO-EWR in 4.16 hrs.

You're being rather disingenuous - you know as well as I do that the 4 hour 16 minute flight you used as an example was due to very strong west to east winds aloft and that the flights EWR-SFO are taking considerably longer. Why are you trying to make my statement out to be false/deceptive?

Here's UA 391 EWR-SFO today - 6 hours 11 minutes:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL391

Quoting STT757 (Reply 47):
I don't understand the complaints that a 738 is not a good aircraft for a four hour flight.

  Because it isn't a 4 hour flight!

BTW... If you think the 738 is a "good" aircraft to serve the Star Alliance megahub EWR on a 6 hour transcon to LAX/SFO, with it's standard, domestic F seating then you should take a look at what's flying out of JFK on LAX/SFO. It's considerably better.



[Edited 2012-12-19 15:47:58]
 
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STT757
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RE: UA EWR-LAX/SFO Going To 14 Daily Each

Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:21 am

The 738 is fine, both upfront and in the back. I've done LAX, SFO, SEA, SAN and LAS on the 73NGs (738s, 737-900ERs) from EWR.

[Edited 2012-12-19 16:23:35]
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757