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Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Sat Oct 21, 2000 6:22 am

About 20 years ago, when airline route networks were not so focused on hubs and frequent service to/from hub cities, we saw many large aircraft on shorter-haul domestic routes. National (1st) flew 747s between JFK and MIA, and DC-10s from all New York airports to many Florida cities (I think at one time they were all wide-body between NYC and Florida), Eatern and Delta had many L-1011s flying between the Northeast and Atlanta and Florida, American used DC-10s between many Northeast cities and Chicago and Dallas, etc, etc.
Do you think we will see the return of larger aircraft to such domestic services? It seems that now, even the most heavily traveled US domestic routes (transcon and Hawaii excepted) are limited to narrow-body aircraft.
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RE: Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Sat Oct 21, 2000 6:48 am

UA flies wide body aircraft extensively between hubs. If you check their schedules you can see 747, 777, 767 and DC-10 (this is now very rare) flights between ORD, DEN, SFO, IAD, and LAX. In some instances, you can find wide bodies to non-hub cities. UA flies the 777 between SEA and DEN as part of the extension from NRT.
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UA Hub-city Widebodies

Sat Oct 21, 2000 7:49 am

Another example of hub to a non-hub widebody is IAD-MIA via a 777-200. It used to be a 767-300. And what nice planes those are!

Also, the ORD-HNL flight (as HNL is not a hub) used be a DC-10. However, they are being phased out.

They use a 767-300 and 777-200 on IAD-ORD

They use a 777-200, 767-300, and 747-200 on IAD-DEN

They use a 767-200 and 777-200 on IAD-SFO

They use a 777-200 and 747-400 IAD-LAX

They use a 767-200, and a 767-300 on JFK-SFO

They use a 767-200 on JFK-LAX

All thouse routes are also vice versa. For example,
They use a 767-300 and 777-200 on IAD-ORD and on ORD-IAD.

Hope this helps!


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RE: Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Sat Oct 21, 2000 7:52 am

I seriously doubt it. Keep in mind that at the time of the 747's flying JFK-MIA, there were very few flights each day. Now, there might be 30 or more flights in that very market...widebodies would oversaturate the market and reduce profits significantly.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
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RE: Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Sat Oct 21, 2000 8:46 am

Delta uses its widebodies on many domestic flights. For example, SFO-LAX and JFK-SFO are 767 flights. And obviously, Delta has countless widebodies between ATL and MCO, MIA, FLL, etc... They also fly their MD-11s between ATL-PDX (continuing on to NRT). And they use L-1011s on SLC-LAX, LAX-ATL, SFO-ATL...
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RE: Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Sat Oct 21, 2000 9:01 am

As frequencies increase (shuttle concept) the need for widebodies is lower.
I don't know the american market so well, but in France it is the same pattern:
A-300 and for a while A 330 used to be in service for domestic french links, but now only MD-83, 737 and A320/319/321 are in service. On the other hand there is now a flight every 30 min. during peak hours between main cities, where there used to be far less frequencies before.

This trend seems to be the same for the US (whith much more traffic) where 747 and DC10 seems to be less used.

An interesting place to study is Japan: they're using 747s for short hauls, AND frequencies are impressive (747SR shuttles !).

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RE: Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Sat Oct 21, 2000 10:42 am

CO flies the DC-10 during peak times of the day from EWR-IAH, and IAH-LAX. When they take delivery of their 762's, they will also use them on these routes.

I miss the old 747 classic redeyes from LAX-JFK or LAX-BOS.
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Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

Eulogizing The Night Transcon 747

Sat Oct 21, 2000 12:10 pm

Back in the day, the flagship routes were the evening transcons. It was a status symbol for an airline to have a 747 flying at 9pm between JFK and LAX or some other high-class city pair. United, American, TWA, Pan Am, they all had 'em. Those days are long gone. Now, the 9pm departure to LAX is almost always a 757, occasionally a 767, never larger than the all-too-rare 777. Back then, you got meals served on a tray that fit the entire table perfectly, no room to spare. Your 747 was set up 3-4-2, perfect for couples and families alike. Today, your tray gives you enough room for a book and two drinks, in addition (or should I say subtraction) to poor-quality food. The 777 that you are lucky to be on is set up 2-5-2, and the flight attendants don't care as much about you as they did in the '70s.

Boy, I miss the golden era of widebody flying.
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RE: Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Sat Oct 21, 2000 1:53 pm

Japan is a different type of market from the US as it has very heavy domestic traffic but relatively few destinations per se. This concentrated traffic flow thus makes the -SR versions of the 747s profitable for use there. In the US the very large number of cities present and the scattered service which results favours the narrowbodies, especially if a hub-and-spokes pattern is considered. The hubs may be linked by heavies such as 767 or 777 but very often 757 is used instead.

Air Jamaica uses its widebodies frequently between Kingston and Montego Bay but those domestic sectors, while available for passengers, are parts of international flights and are merely flown to ensure that passengers headed overseas on the flights (eg to JFK) are able to get on at both KIN and MBJ. BWIA used to do the same, with the TriStar flying from Port of Spain to Tobago and then to Frankfurt. In that case the tourist traffic which was sought got off in Tobago while the domestic sector merely got the plane to and from base.

Hop to it, fly for life!
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RE: Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Sat Oct 21, 2000 9:59 pm

Well what I can contribute to the overall objective of this topic is that Lan Chile Airlines, a member of the oneworld alliance is currently operating the high-density Santiago-Concepción (SCL-CCP) domestic flight within Chile with an Airbus A340-300 (275 pax) twice daily, every day. (1 hr 10min flight).
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Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2000 7:12 pm

RE: Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Sun Oct 22, 2000 1:27 am

Hi LAN340!
I see LAN CHILE have now got the 737 on
Santiago Concepcion on the new schedule.I know
they used to have 340 on the route because I have
booked it before
Tell me-how is Avant Airlines doing it and how they
compare to LAN CHILE

Best Regards
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Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

France: Narrow-Body Seating More Than *1,000* Pax

Sun Oct 22, 2000 1:47 am


Currently Air France operates a narrow-body transporting more than 1000 passengers on French trunk routes... It's called the TGV  

The traffic between Paris and Lyon is so large that some 747-400Ds would be needed to carry it all if there weren't any high-speed train.

On low seasons you can get a ticket for less than... US$20!

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
User avatar
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RE: Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Sun Oct 22, 2000 5:05 am

Actually, many USA transcon flights do fly with wide-body airliners.

AA, DL, NW and UA all fly wide-body jets from SFO to the eastern USA. In fact, I believe that the daytime flights between SFO and JFK are all 767 flights from AA, DL and UA!
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Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

RE: Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Sun Oct 22, 2000 5:18 am

NW has tons of domestic DC10s

examples include but are not limited to:






Sometimes there is even a 747 on MSP-SFO

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Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Sun Oct 22, 2000 3:56 pm

United has also had a history of running wide bodies on domestic routes.

For a LONG time..

ORD - DTW 2 - 3 DC10S
ORD - IND 767 300ER
ORD - BWI 2 DC10S, NOW 767-300S
DEN - COS multiple DC10s

IND - DEN now gets a 757 (if it helps.. heh)

Also, the FL routes got a ton of service.

ORD - TPA, MCO, MIA consistently saw DC10s and 767300s on them

These are just the few I can remember for United........

Delta has a TON, i mean a TON of L1011s and 767s from ATL to cities throughout all of Florida.

Vegas -- need we list them all?? heh

TWA has also had a history of throwing the old L1011s to places like Orlando, Vegas, etc during the peak seasons.. but they're gone  

~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
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Joined: Fri Oct 29, 1999 2:49 am

RE: Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Sun Oct 22, 2000 7:56 pm

Flying wide bodies on short haul routes is pretty easy in Japan ! Japans domestic flights last mostly no longer than 1.5 hours (exept Japan Trans Ocean Air that operates some domestic flights out of Haneda to Okinawa=around 3 hours).

Well, just an example of the Haneda-Sapporo route:

JAL operates 13 daily flights from Haneda to Sapporo using some of their newest aircraft that are Boeing 777-200s (Super Seat 12, Economy 377) or other types like teh Boeing 747-400D (Super Seat 24, Economy 544!). Other types used on that route are B767 and 747 Classics.

Also JAS and ANA operate the same sized aircraft on domestic routes and JAS 777s even have PTVs for every Economy Pax !

CO Widebodies(EWR-Florida)

Sun Oct 22, 2000 9:49 pm

The last major airline to use some widebodies from EWR(NYC) to Florida was Continental from early to mid 1990s. Most of the Florida destinations was serviced by one or two flights by the A300.

The purchase of the 753 shows that CO is staying from the widebody on the EWR-Florida segment,even though there is increasing demand for this service. However, most new widebody aircraft initiated on CO(i.e. B777, B764) flew a trial run from EWR to MCO and back.

My theory is that if loads get super-good on the 753, then maybe some 764s may be used. This strategy is similar to what airlines are using w/ RJs and upgrading them to mainline aircraft when loads are good on the RJs.

Have a nice day
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Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

RE: Domestic Wide-Body Flights

Fri Oct 27, 2000 10:40 am

MSP-LAS is also a DC10 for NW
MSP-ANC is also a DC10 for NW

DTW-HNL (nonstop seasonal)

MSP-HNL (nonstop seasonal 747-200)

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