rootsair
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Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:43 am

Hi folks,

there is a question I've been asking myself for a while. Why did AF take the 777 when they already had the A340. I have understood that those two a/c compete against each other. Does anyone know the reason why they decided to have two competing A/C ?
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DolphinAir747
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:53 am

The 777 is a twin and therefore has better economics.
 
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TK787
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:57 am

Not necessarily competing.
TK also, has both the 340-300 and the 77W.
77W has 100 or so more seats and lot more cargo space also.
But the 340 has almost completed its mission and on its way out.
 
nrt1011
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:05 am

TG still flies the 777 as well as the A340-600. Must admit, I always thought one or the other. Cathay always kept their fleet down to a manageable mix I always thought
 
airbazar
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
there is a question I've been asking myself for a while. Why did AF take the 777 when they already had the A340. I have understood that those two a/c compete against each other. Does anyone know the reason why they decided to have two competing A/C ?

Simple. They had already purchased A340's when the 772 became available. Most airlines don't have the luxury of being able to refresh their fleet on a short cycle. They make their fleet planning for the long term. Also remember that the original 772 wasn't as capable as later model 772's (the 772ER was only available in 1997), and AF needed a plane for those long thin routes, and possibly the take off performance of the quad for some airports (SXM being one example).
At least AF did eventually order the 777 and A330 to hedge their bets against the least efficient A340, unlike some other airlines  
 
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Polot
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:27 pm

Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 3):
TG still flies the 777 as well as the A340-600. Must admit, I always thought one or the other. Cathay always kept their fleet down to a manageable mix I always thought

Didn't TG have some issues getting ETOPS approval or something? I thought I read that once which is why they went for the A340NGs. Now that obviously isn't a problem.
 
G500
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
there is a question I've been asking myself for a while. Why did AF take the 777 when they already had the A340. I have understood that those two a/c compete against each other. Does anyone know the reason why they decided to have two competing A/C ?

It sounds more like you're asking, why did AF buy American when the French own a piece of Airbus and they already had Airbus.

The 777 is a more economical aircraft, from fuel comsuption to maintenance (2 engines vs 4 engines). Good decision by AF
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 5):
Didn't TG have some issues getting ETOPS approval or something? I thought I read that once which is why they went for the A340NGs. Now that obviously isn't a problem.

Did they order the A346's before the 77W had demonstrated that it would beat all expectations, including Boeing's? Most A346 sales (except for top-up orders) were before it was known how good the 77W would be; also, remember that the A346 was available well before the 77W. Airlines that ordered the A346 before knowing how good the 77W would be were stuck in a dilemma; do they order more A346's to avoid having to add another type (like LH), or do they order 77W's and accept the costs of two different types on essentially the same mission; the only other option is dispose of the A346's at a huge loss and go all 77W's. Different airlines have dealt with the situation differently; I suspect that a lot followed the second option, probably including TG. Any airline that has hot-and-high destinations would probably want to hold on to at least a few A346's, as that is the one scenario where it has a clear edge on the 77W.
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mwhcvt
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:06 pm

I'm going to ask it again, as I don't think I've ever got an answer, but how much fuel does a single engine burn on a 777 compared to 2 engines on a 340??
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
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PM
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:26 pm

In a nutshell and all other things being equal, the 777-200ER is generally a better plane than the A340-300. As a passenger, I'd much prefer to fly on an A340 than a 777 but in terms of economics, the Boeing is the better bet. AF bought the A340 because it was available earlier and - no doubt - for political reasons. But then they went for the 777 and liked it. They then became a very early customer for the 777-300ER and, seemingly, like it too (as does everybody).

So, the simple answer is that the 777 generally outperforms the A340 and that's why AF preferred it.
 
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
They then became a very early customer for the 777-300ER and, seemingly, like it too (as does everybody).

AF was the launch customer for the 777-300ER.

Despite political pressure in the early 90s, AF said no to the A346 and decided to focus its long-haul fleet renewal on the 777. To become today one of the largest operator of this type, with 25 777-200ER and 37 777-300ER (+8 in order). And only 13 A343 remaining (+15 A332).
 
Azure
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:00 pm

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 10):
AF was the launch customer for the 777-300ER.

Despite political pressure in the early 90s, AF said no to the A346 and decided to focus its long-haul fleet renewal on the 777. To become today one of the largest operator of this type, with 25 777-200ER and 37 777-300ER (+8 in order). And only 13 A343 remaining (+15 A332).

  

On a side note, AF was also the launch customer for the A340-300 in march 1993.

IMO AF like to have a mixed fleet of A and B aircrafts, as their intention to order both the A350 and the 787 for their long haul fleet renewal may suggest. They probably follow an old french proverb : "do not put all your eggs in one basket". A clever attitude to get the best deals for the most suited aircrafts...
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:11 pm

AF used the 767 as well, so it's not as if Boeing big twins were alien to them...
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Azure
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 12):
AF used the 767 as well, so it's not as if Boeing big twins were alien to them...

Correct, but they owned only 9. AF did not look really convinced  
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 8):
I'm going to ask it again, as I don't think I've ever got an answer, but how much fuel does a single engine burn on a 777 compared to 2 engines on a 340??

I believe that the 77W has about a 9-10% fuel burn advantage over the A346. I don't know what the figures are between the A343 and 77E.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 8):
I'm going to ask it again, as I don't think I've ever got an answer, but how much fuel does a single engine burn on a 777 compared to 2 engines on a 340??

On the same mission the A346 would burn around 5% more fuel than a 77W, but take this as a 'soft' figure from an acquaintance's analysis several years ago. Fuel burn isn't everything mind, and being able to shift more payload out of certain airports is where the A346 and A340 family as a whole still have the edge over the 777/330.


Dan  
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Burkhard
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:05 pm

Do not forget internal fights of the French Elite - who has been with whome in which course often is decisive in France.
 
gigneil
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 1):
The 777 is a twin and therefore has better economics.

The 777 has better economics, but its not necessarily because its a twin.

NS
 
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 10):
Quoting PM (Reply 9):
They then became a very early customer for the 777-300ER and, seemingly, like it too (as does everybody).

AF was the launch customer for the 777-300ER.

AF was also the first non-US carrier to order and operate the 727-200. They also replaced their French-built Caravelles with 737-200s.
 
LY777
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:14 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 13):
Correct, but they owned only 9. AF did not look really convinced

I never understood why the 767s never worked for AF, and why they exited the fleet so early.
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ADent
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:21 pm

AF is a big fan of GE engines. I assume because GE and Snecma are partners on CFM and other projects.

A340-600 doesn't have a GE option. 777-300ER is GE powered.

I am sure that is not the only reason, but since the rest of the fleet is GE powered, it must be one reason.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:29 pm

They are not exactly identical airplanes, they compete(d) and overlap(ped) a lot, but the A343 is nonetheless a bit smaller. From the A343 to the 772ER there was a small increase in capacity, both freight and cargo. Also a step up in performance, and slightly more range (though the A340 can virtually fly any route that AF operates, current or discontinued). Seat configurations cannot always be compared 1 to 1 due to different seating density and different classes, but AF A340 seats 30J 21W 224Y = 275, AF 77E seats (in comparable 3 class and not 4 class) 34J 24W 250Y = 306. If using 9 abreast instead of 10, these 250 seats would drop by ~ 20, for ~ 285 seats (still slightly more than the A340, but not by much).

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 10):

AF was the launch customer for the 777-300ER.

Despite political pressure in the early 90s, AF said no to the A346 and decided to focus its long-haul fleet renewal on the 777.

This is really where Airbus lost big to AF. Maybe if the A346 had come with GE engines.... but the 77W was going to come out with GE engines.
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LY777
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 20):
I am sure that is not the only reason, but since the rest of the fleet is GE powered, it must be one reason.

But now, they have ordered A350s which are RR-powered
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BasilFawlty
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:24 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 22):
But now, they have ordered A350s which are RR-powered

Because there's no other option available at the moment.  
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jfk777
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:38 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 20):
AF is a big fan of GE engines. I assume because GE and Snecma are partners on CFM and other projects.

A340-600 doesn't have a GE option. 777-300ER is GE powered.

I am sure that is not the only reason, but since the rest of the fleet is GE powered, it must be one reason.

Ita all about teh engines, France has long been a user of GE engines and partners in the CFM engines and GE90. AF has also had an allergy to RR engines, only when teh Concorde came did they not have a choice. Now they are ordering A350 but RR wants to sell them the maintanence and AF wants to do it themselves, this is the only engine on the plane. The French - British tiff continues.
 
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:11 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 14):
I believe that the 77W has about a 9-10% fuel burn advantage over the A346. I don't know what the figures are between the A343 and 77E.

Dont know about the 772ER but for a 772A, CX uses identical fuel burn figures as A343. Would think the 772ER burns more being heavier but it has a higher payload than A343.
 
FI642
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:17 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 20):
AF is a big fan of GE engines. I assume because GE and Snecma are partners on CFM and other projects.

Speaking to Pilots and Mechanics at my airline, they both prefer GE to any other engine type. Pilots from the standpoint of being able to get max power quickly, Mechanics from ease of repair.
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mwhcvt
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:43 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 14):
I believe that the 77W has about a 9-10% fuel burn advantage over the A346. I don't know what the figures are between the A343 and 77E.
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 15):
On the same mission the A346 would burn around 5% more fuel than a 77W, but take this as a 'soft' figure from an acquaintance's analysis several years ago. Fuel burn isn't everything mind, and being able to shift more payload out of certain airports is where the A346 and A340 family as a whole still have the edge over the 777/330.


Dan

Thanks to you both this is the first time that I've ever managed to get an answer to that question, as the way you get some people go on you'd think that the 340 uses twice the amount of fuel which I was certain would not be the situation 

I appreciate however that the maintenance of 4 engines will be vastly more expensive that just 2 on the 777
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:34 am

Quoting FI642 (Reply 26):
Speaking to Pilots and Mechanics at my airline, they both prefer GE to any other engine type. Pilots from the standpoint of being able to get max power quickly, Mechanics from ease of repair.

On any commercial aircraft where RR and GE are the option: A330, MD11, B747/67/77/87 the three spool design of the RR engines has proven to provide quicker spool ups from idle/flight idle to TO/GA.
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yyz717
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:02 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 6):
It sounds more like you're asking, why did AF buy American when the French own a piece of Airbus and they already had Airbus.

The 777 is a more economical aircraft, from fuel comsuption to maintenance (2 engines vs 4 engines). Good decision by AF

The AF 777 order was certainly a coup d'etat for Boeing, given how politics can often influence aircraft orders. I'm sure there was gallic outrage throughout France and esp at Airbus HQ at the initial AF 772 order. Kudos to AF for ordering what they thought was the best aircraft for their fleet, despite political pressure (no doubt) to order the 345/346.

AF went on to order the 332 and 388 after the 772 order which no doubt helped mollify Airbus, the French government and perhaps millions of Frenchmen appalled at the Boeing order.
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brindabella
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:02 am

Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 8):
I'm going to ask it again, as I don't think I've ever got an answer, but how much fuel does a single engine burn on a 777 compared to 2 engines on a 340??

 Wow!   

Errr, I know what you're asking, but my thoughts stray to an engine-failure on the B777 being compared to a double engine-failure on an A340!

   

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Azure
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:46 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 29):
The AF 777 order was certainly a coup d'etat for Boeing, given how politics can often influence aircraft orders. I'm sure there was gallic outrage throughout France and esp at Airbus HQ at the initial AF 772 order. Kudos to AF for ordering what they thought was the best aircraft for their fleet, despite political pressure (no doubt) to order the 345/346.

AF went on to order the 332 and 388 after the 772 order which no doubt helped mollify Airbus, the French government and perhaps millions of Frenchmen appalled at the Boeing order.

Sorry dear highly respected member of a.net, but the situation in France is slighlty different from what you are trying to depict. AF have been always very pragmatic with their orders. Politics have had very little to no influence in their fleet composition. In fact, AF have ordered all the civil jets built by Boeing, except the 757 : 707, 727, 737, 747, 767, 777 and will probably order the 787 soon.

Everybody in France is well aware that Airbus, a subsidiary of the EADS corporation, is a very wealthy company : nobody worries for its future, and nobody thinks that Airbus have to rely on old AF for its existence ! My opinion as a Frenchman is that most of my fellow citizens cannot care less about what our legacy carrier orders. As a matter of fact, when AF announced that they will order the 787 for their long haul fleet renewal (along with the A350), only a couple of politicians (from the right wing conservative party) seemed to be chocked but that did not last long and did not have any impact ! So too bad for the gallic outrage that probably exists only in your imagination !

On the other side of the Atlantic however, the situation seems to differ substantially. I fail to find one US airline that have been as faithful to A as AF have been to B ! As a matter of fact again, B depends much more on the US governement orders for military aircrafts than A and EADS depends on the French governement... In the real world everything seems to lead to the conclusion that political pressure might well be more intense on your side of the pond  .

[Edited 2012-12-23 02:49:24]
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:07 am

It's certainly true that Airbus is quite capable of standing on its own feet now without the 'helpful' launch orders from AF. Similarly RR is dependant on orders from BA and friendly countries for RB211 powered 747s. Besides, the orders from the middle eastern carriers for widebodies dwarf what the European carriers are buying now!

Having said that, when Eurostar ordered German Siemens trains, there was a massive stink in France  
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Azure
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:50 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 32):
It's certainly true that Airbus is quite capable of standing on its own feet now without the 'helpful' launch orders from AF. Similarly RR is dependant on orders from BA and friendly countries for RB211 powered 747s. Besides, the orders from the middle eastern carriers for widebodies dwarf what the European carriers are buying now!

  

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 32):
Having said that, when Eurostar ordered German Siemens trains, there was a massive stink in France

Agreed, but Eurostar is a subsidiary of the state-owned SNCF (the french railways company) : that did not prevent them from buying german trains. Once again where is this gallic protectionism ?   
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 33):
Agreed, but Eurostar is a subsidiary of the state-owned SNCF (the french railways company) : that did not prevent them from buying german trains. Once again where is this gallic protectionism ?

Especially considering that French trains are actually better than their German counterparts.
But Siemens has quite the reputation for having other convincing arguments other than product quality to obtain orders...
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
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PM
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:03 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 31):
and will probably order the 787 soon

"Soon"? Try December of last year.  
Quoting Azure (Reply 31):
but the situation in France is slightly different from what you are trying to depict.

Correct.   

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 32):
Similarly RR is dependant on orders from BA and friendly countries for RB211 powered 747s.

"is"??? That's ancient history, pal. The last order for RB211-powered 747s was almost seven years ago (28th February 2006) and was from that well-known "friend" of the UK, Luxembourg. Prior to that, you have to go back to December 2003 to find a "friendly" Cathay Pacific ordering ... *one* 747 with RR.

There was a time when former colonies could be expected to do the decent thing and buy British but those days are long gone. (And good thing too.)
 
LY777
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 31):
On the other side of the Atlantic however, the situation seems to differ substantially. I fail to find one US airline that have been as faithful to A as AF have been to B

I disagree.
While most European Airlines prefer buying Airbus planes (IB, TAP, LX, SN, EZY are all-Airbus for example/ AF, LH, AZ have a vast majority of Airbus planes: AF is all Airbus for short haul), US airlines have a good mix of Airbus and Boeing: AA has tons of A320s on order, UA has tons of A32XS and has A350s on order, US is soon going to be all Airbus, DL uses A320s/A330s, HA is going to be all-Airbus for long haul.

So, I don't get your point when you say that that you " fail to find one US airline that have been as faithful to A as AF have been to B"
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par13del
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:16 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 31):
On the other side of the Atlantic however, the situation seems to differ substantially. I fail to find one US airline that have been as faithful to A as AF have been to B ! As a matter of fact again, B depends much more on the US governement orders for military aircrafts than A and EADS depends on the French governement...
Quoting LY777 (Reply 36):
US airlines have a good mix of Airbus and Boeing: AA has tons of A320s on order, UA has tons of A32XS and has A350s on order, US is soon going to be all Airbus, DL uses A320s/A330s, HA is going to be all-Airbus for long haul.

So, I don't get your point when you say that that you " fail to find one US airline that have been as faithful to A as AF have been to B"

I guess the fact that the USA as a country is one of or the largest operators of Airbus a/c carries no sway, and this is before the recent AA order. Maybe the basis of the comment is the fact that no USA a/c operates an A340, however, the number of 747's operated tends to say that it is the a/c type and not the OEM.
 
mandala499
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 8):
I'm going to ask it again, as I don't think I've ever got an answer, but how much fuel does a single engine burn on a 777 compared to 2 engines on a 340??

Total trip fuel burn between 77E & 343 is about 0-5% depending on the conditions, on a same payload tonnage.
Between 77W and 346... all I can say is uurgh... it's about 5-10%... but the exact details of the scenarios I've calculated in the past eludes me at the moment.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 29):
The AF 777 order was certainly a coup d'etat for Boeing, given how politics can often influence aircraft orders. I'm sure there was gallic outrage throughout France and esp at Airbus HQ at the initial AF 772 order. Kudos to AF for ordering what they thought was the best aircraft for their fleet, despite political pressure (no doubt) to order the 345/346.

Coup d'etat eh? Let's see... they had the A300s and A310s and AF took.... 767s... and did so when both was available. Why not that as a coup d'etat?
Get this Gallic discrimination out of the bloody way please. Historically Air France does not believe in European long haul products after the demise of the European manufacturers... since the DC-8 and 707s... the coup d'etat has been more on Airbus trying to get a big order from Air France... and BA... which never to date, operated any Airbus widebody (unless my memory eludes me).

Mandala499
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Azure
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 38):
Coup d'etat eh? Let's see... they had the A300s and A310s and AF took.... 767s... and did so when both was available. Why not that as a coup d'etat?
Get this Gallic discrimination out of the bloody way please. Historically Air France does not believe in European long haul products after the demise of the European manufacturers... since the DC-8 and 707s... the coup d'etat has been more on Airbus trying to get a big order from Air France... and BA... which never to date, operated any Airbus widebody (unless my memory eludes me).

Thanks, I totally agree with you ! But to be fair, BA will operate A380s as from 2013...

Quoting LY777 (Reply 36):
don't get your point when you say that that you " fail to find one US airline that have been as faithful to A as AF have been to B"

If you take time to read again my entire post, my point will appear clearly to you, hopefully : I am bored to read thread after thread that french politics interfere in the building of the AF fleet. I do not even see french idiosincrasy there. Facts establish the opposite... And I am not talking of just today's situation, but also of the history of AF which have had in their fleet all the models built by Boeing since the 707, except the 757.
Now please answer my question : is there an airline in the US which have had in their fleet all the models built by Airbus since the A300 ?...

Ok, things are changing in the USA, probably under the pressure of more difficult economics and increased competition. Most major US airlines are now placing orders with Airbus if they are convinced their product is better suited for them. But still :

Quoting LY777 (Reply 36):
US airlines have a good mix of Airbus and Boeing: AA has tons of A320s on order, UA has tons of A32XS and has A350s on order, US is soon going to be all Airbus, DL uses A320s/A330s, HA is going to be all-Airbus for long haul.

I have to disagree with you here ! Please let's go back to the facts :
- AA own 605 aircrafts, including 0 Airbus. They have 450 aircrafts in order, including 260 with A.
- UA own 706 aircrafts, including 152 Airbus. 228 in order, 25 with A.
- DL own 721 aircrafts, including 157 Airbus. 210 in order, 0 with A.
(Source : wikipedia. Not the best reference, but please feel free to correct my numbers !).
In my views, the fleets and orders of the "big 3" are not better balanced between the two manufacturers than the AF fleet , as you would like to suggest ! (69 B out of 254 aircrafts, 8 B out of 23 orders).
 
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Stitch
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 31):
On the other side of the Atlantic however, the situation seems to differ substantially. I fail to find one US airline that have been as faithful to A as AF have been to B!

JetBlue Airways, US Airways and Frontier Airlines all come to mind in terms of their order history, even if said history is not as long as Air France's.
 
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 31):
I fail to find one US airline that have been as faithful to A as AF have been to B

AF has been a loyal B customer but let's put this in perspective. When AF bought the 707, 727, 737-200 and 747 they were basically the only game in town (except McD and L--also American). They ordered a minimal number of 737 (New Gen) compared to A32x and all of 3 or 4 767's. Only when it comes to the 777 do they have a plane that they have purchased in greater quantity than similar AB models.
 
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 20):
AF is a big fan of GE engines. I assume because GE and Snecma are partners on CFM and other projects.

   Due to that partnership, AF gets their requirements in the initial design.

Quoting FI642 (Reply 26):
Speaking to Pilots and Mechanics at my airline, they both prefer GE to any other engine type.

GE has its pluses, but it is airframe dependent. For example, there is a reason the GE is the worst selling engine on the A330 and RR the best. GE does good engines, but not so good no one else has a chance. They must also keep innovating. Pratt became arrogant when they were at the top of the market and paid for it. The GTFs are a radically different design. Let's see what happens.    For GE has broken some of their design philosophy with the LEAP-X in order to get the efficiency while Pratt has 'overcorrected' and made the GTFs extremely simple.

As to pilots preferring GE, they have one of the longer times between takeoff attempts. (Nothing is free, there is always a trade off.) So if there is a takeoff abort, GE's have the longest turn time. (The BMR715 has no time restriction, it will purely be the breaks cooling down.)


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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:18 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 42):
For example, there is a reason the GE is the worst selling engine on the A330 and RR the best.

Alas, that's no longer true. GE have been scoring important wins and their share of the A330 market is now 2 or 3 percentage points above PW's. They have about 44% between them. RR have the other 56%.

And in terms of deliveries, GE are also #2 with 234 against 213 for PW. Moreover, PW don't have much on the horizon whereas GE have 8 for Iberia and 15 for Turkish to build plus sundry other odds and ends. Then there's the 20 new A330s for Philippine Airlines. GE must be the favourites there.

 
 
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:28 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 31):
On the other side of the Atlantic however, the situation seems to differ substantially. I fail to find one US airline that have been as faithful to A as AF have been to B !

Pre-merger UA was getting pretty friendly with Airbus, after being a Boeing (and McD) shop for years. Pre-merger NW was a pretty good A customer too.

Ironically the UA dealings with Airbus started for the opposite reason of AF - the dislike of GE engines after UA232. A320s came with a P&W option, 737s were GE/Snecma only. Plus A had better financing that round too, IIRC.

The post-merger UA (with CO management) has a different plan.
 
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:33 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 44):
A320s came with a P&W option

Strictly speaking, an IAE option of which PW owned one third.
 
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:07 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 42):
GE has its pluses, but it is airframe dependent. For example, there is a reason the GE is the worst selling engine on the A330 and RR the best. GE does good engines, but not so good no one else has a chance

I was under the impression that recent modifications on the CF6 have improved its performance, at least now it handles "hot 'n high" conditions better.

Quoting PM (Reply 43):
Alas, that's no longer true. GE have been scoring important wins and their share of the A330 market is now 2 or 3 percentage points above PW's. They have about 44% between them. RR have the other 56%.And in terms of deliveries, GE are also #2 with 234 against 213 for PW. Moreover, PW don't have much on the horizon whereas GE have 8 for Iberia and 15 for Turkish to build plus sundry other odds and ends. Then there's the 20 new A330s for Philippine Airlines. GE must be the favourites there.

Thank you for the numbers. I agree with you on PAL. And TK was certainly a big win for GE.
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:16 am

Quoting PM (Reply 35):
Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 32):
Similarly RR is dependant on orders from BA and friendly countries for RB211 powered 747s.

"is"??? That's ancient history, pal. The last order for RB211-powered 747s was almost seven years ago (28th February 2006) and was from that well-known "friend" of the UK, Luxembourg. Prior to that, you have to go back to December 2003 to find a "friendly" Cathay Pacific ordering ... *one* 747 with RR.

There was a time when former colonies could be expected to do the decent thing and buy British but those days are long gone. (And good thing too.)

Sorry, my comment came out wrong, you need to swap the word 'is' for the word 'was'  

What I was trying to say, is that RR (like Airbus in its early days) was back in the late 70s and early 80s dependant on 747 RB211 orders from friendly countries. The RB211-535 on the 757 was the first sign that RR could compete on a equal basis, with the Trents making RR an equal with PW and GE rather than a struggling also ran!
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:39 am

Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 27):
I appreciate however that the maintenance of 4 engines will be vastly more expensive that just 2 on the 777

As I understand it, the GE90-110/115's maintenance is much more expensive than any other engine, so the advantage is not as much as one might think. But it is still there.
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RE: Why AF 777 When A340

Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:58 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 39):
If you take time to read again my entire post, my point will appear clearly to you, hopefully : I am bored to read thread after thread that french politics interfere in the building of the AF fleet. I do not even see french idiosincrasy there. Facts establish the opposite... And I am not talking of just today's situation, but also of the history of AF which have had in their fleet all the models built by Boeing since the 707, except the 757.
Now please answer my question : is there an airline in the US which have had in their fleet all the models built by Airbus since the A300 ?...

I think we will have to disagree on this one: I was not talking about AF in particular, but about European airlines in general which tend to favor Airbus planes.
I agree that AF is a good Boeing customer and that they have used almost every Boeing types BUT this was because, in the past, there was not equivalent Airbus types:
- the 707 had no European equivalent
- the 727 had no European equivalent
- the 737Classic had no European equivalent, and as soon as the A32X family entered service, AF chose not to buy the 737NG to replace the 737Classic: they chose the A32X family.
- the 747 had no European equivalent
- concerning the 767 family, I still wonder why they bought this a/c since their A300/A310s were in much higher number
I am sure that if Airbus existed from the 60s, AF wouldn't have bought every Boeing models.
And, also, don't forget that they have also used EVERY Airbus models: A300/A310/A318/A319/A320/A321/A330/A340/A380 and soon A350s.
Nevertheless, they chose the 777 as their workhorse for long haul, as well as the 787 to complement the A340/A330/A350 fleet.


Now, AF/KL and BA are exceptions in Europe as more and more major flag carriers are slowly moving to an all-Airbus fleet (if this is not already the case):
- IB, TAP, LX, EI are already all Airbus
- AZ is almost all Airbus (except the 777s)
- LH is going to phase out all of their 737s to replace them with A32Xs. The only Boeing type that will be left in the long term is the 747 (and 77F for Cargo, but there is not really the choice as the A332F is much smaller)
- SK has decided to replace the 737NG with A320NEO

Concerning the European LCC, this is more balanced: FR is all-Boeing, U2 is all-Airbus, Norwegian is currently all-Boeing, but has a mix of A and B on order.

US airlines, on the other don't hesitate to buy Airbus if they feel this is the right choice:
- B6 is all-Airbus (except regional E-jets)
- F9 is all-Airbus (except regional E)
- VX is all-Airbus
- US is going to be all-Airbus soon, once the ageing 734/757/762s are gone
- DL has a mix of A/B for both long haul and short haul (although in higher numbers for B)
- AA has 260 A32Xs on order
- UA has a mix of A/B for both long haul and short haul (although in higher numbers for B)
- the only major US airlines that are all-Boeing that come to my mind are AS and WN
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388