Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Quoting rcair1 (Reply 47): Why? What is strategic about an airline that is failing that happens to have the name of the country painted on it. |
Quoting rcair1 (Reply 47): Again - why. In today's global market - there are few places that benefit from a 'national' carrier regardless. |
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 49): Same idea for the longhaul game. Maybe only a handful of markets can be profitably sustained at the end, but yes operate these few long hauls from FCO, MXP or anywhere else it makes sense. |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 53): You're telling me that a country of 60 million people, one of the most touristic regions of the world and still one of the top economies of the world can only support a handful of long-hauls? |
Quoting brindabella (Reply 46): AZ is history. Gruesome history. Unless it has changed an amazing amount, it is still worth less than nothing, Much less. |
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 49): I'm not saying AZ should be shut, but to me it certainly should become a very different airline. |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 53): You're telling me that a country of 60 million people, one of the most touristic regions of the world and still one of the top economies of the world can only support a handful of long-hauls? |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 53): Alitalia needs to shrink it's premium cabin size - go higher density and reduce CASM through configuration. |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 53): The A330-200 was the wrong airplane to order |
Quoting Azure (Reply 51): But EY, that is not exactly short of cash, might be a possibility. After all they are already quite happy with their acquisition of another european carrier : AB... |
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 55): Without hubbing, that would be the fact. That would be like myself saying California couldn't support a hub. That could be the case. 60 million isn't much. Not when they are situated to compete with IST, MUC, ZRH, and to a lesser extent CDG, AMS, and FRA |
Quoting a36001 (Reply 9): Would it be better if Alitalia was actually wound up, and a new carrier started with absolutely no connection to the old airline? And I mean no previous management at any level, government or financial connection to the original airline. Happy Christmas |
Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 11): Come on! It's Christmas...... |
Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 14): Are you sure that what happened to Malev was what Hungarians wanted? Or it just happened out of their control? |
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37): AZ as a local Italian airline has no value. In that scenario it should just be shut down. |
Quoting Azure (Reply 40): This triumvirate already exists and AF/KL is part of it. Passenger traffic : LH/LX/OS group : 90 M / AF/KL group : 75 M / IAG : 50 M. (Source : corporate websites of said groups)... |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 56): Scheduled effectively - one can access all of Eastern Europe, the Mediterranean, Africa, Middle East, Subcontinent - even South east asia via FCO. |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 56): This is an amazing opportunity. |
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 58): Just cut Alitalia down to the size it needs to be to serve Italy versus trying to have it be a major airline. |
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 58): Snapping up Alitalia would solidify the dividing up of Europe's airlines. |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 56): AZ has a very high fixed cost structure. Naturally the only hedge against this is low-CASM aircraft with higher cabin densities. |
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25): People don't want to trek out MXP, when you have LIN right in town. |
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 58): SN works as a smaller member of Lufthansa group without a major hub for connections. Just cut Alitalia down to the size it needs to be to serve Italy versus trying to have it be a major airline. |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 15): FCO is in a very strategic geographic position - especially as a hub connecting middle east/africa/sub-continent from North America/Europe/South America. |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 15): LH/AF/BA are all immune to this - the domestic/short haul product has to be the cost of feeding a sustainable size of long-haul flights. |
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32): I think AF/KLM should bring Alitalia into the fold and scrap any idea of an international hub in Italy. Cut Alitalia down to a more or less local Italian airline and funnel more traffic via CDG and/or AMS. Obviously, you can't just keep connecting passengers away, but capacity should be dramatically cut and connecting capacity moved out of FCO or MXP. |
Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 14): Missing AZ we are almost left with FR and U2, worse than Hungary. Not saying that those LCC are bad (indeed I like U2 enough) , but this is a Country that needs a lot more, just have a cold look to the numbers. |
Quoting Semaex (Reply 67): The problem with this situation is, that longhaul traffic ex Italy via AF/KL can only work westbound. The Gulf Airlines would take the whole market east and maybe south of Europe and the unions know it. They would never support such a situation. |
Quoting Semaex (Reply 67): just accept that Italy has been left out of the European race to longhaul. MAD/LHR, CDG/AMS, FRA/ZRH. No space for MXP/FCO I'm afraid... |
Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 71): Quoting BMI727 (Reply 69): Germany, on the other hand, might be on the hook. Care to elaborate? |
Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 61): The two airports LIN & MXP could coexist just fine if the ground transportation to the airport was studied right. |
Quoting Semaex (Reply 67): The problem with this situation is, that longhaul traffic ex Italy via AF/KL can only work westbound. The Gulf Airlines would take the whole market east and maybe south of Europe and the unions know it. |
Quoting Azure (Reply 72): AZ can be present on routes that would not sustain a high yield traffic provided they duplicate a, say, KLM type of business model... |
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 60): Or expand at MUC. If MUC ever builds another runway (or two), it could serve those markets even better with superior connections. The issue is there is no need for an Italian based hub, in particular once IST is a 5-runway mega-airport. IST, MUC, and FRA will devour whatever part of the market the mid-east carriers do not get to first. Any why are you mentioning the Subcontinent? AZ isn't a presence there. |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 74): FCO is in a very strategic geographic location to build flows from Middle East / Subcontinent via FCO to Europe/North America. Couple this - with very strong demand for leisure/capital traffic to Rome, this becomes a compelling opportunity. |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 74): FCO is in a very strategic geographic location to build flows from Middle East / Subcontinent via FCO to Europe/North America. |
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 76): As already mentioned in my Reply 63, FCO is too far south to be a logical connecting point for most of those markets. FCO's reputation as a convenient connecting hub is also poor and no competition for points like AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/ZRH or even LHR in quality of service. |
Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 16): Politics aside. Italy could have one hell of an airline if business were put first and the entire Rome-hub nonsense was put aside. A good hub at MXP would be well-located (both geographically and economically) and we're talking about a country of nearly 60M people. Come on, if business is sound, there's a room for a competitive Italian carrier, no comparison with tiny Hungary (all do respect). |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 77): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 76): As already mentioned in my Reply 63, FCO is too far south to be a logical connecting point for most of those markets. FCO's reputation as a convenient connecting hub is also poor and no competition for points like AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/ZRH or even LHR in quality of service. Based on what? Consult AZ's traffic numbers for their intercont services - a strong portion connects to the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Southern Italy and North Africa. FCO is a wonderful geographic location to exploit this whole market - |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 81): AZ is one of top producers on ODs such as YYZ-CAI, YYZ-OTP, YYZ-TLV, YYZ-BEG, YYZ-TIA, YYZ-ATH/SKG, YYZ-IST |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 81): FCO is a fantastic hub for traffic to the Balkans, Greece, Turkey, Egypt, Tunisia, Lebanon, Israel, Iran etc. AZ is one of top producers on ODs such as YYZ-CAI, YYZ-OTP, YYZ-TLV, YYZ-BEG, YYZ-TIA, YYZ-ATH/SKG, YYZ-IST |
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 82): Here are some AZ markets shares from YYZ based on O&D. TIA - 30.4% (AZ happen to be #1 carrier) SKG - 22.3% (LH is #1) AMM - 7.1% CAI - 5.9% ATH - 5.2% The rest of cities you cited, AZ market share is inconsequential. But at the end of the day what does AZ really bring to the market that is new? Whats unique about a Rome or Milan hub network? I don't think anything. Its not like AZ can provide unique markets that other carriers are not already serving well in a crowded European hub landscape. This mean AZ must rely on buying market share with low fares. Not a good recipe for an already high cost airline. To me the European hub game is already very crowded, and AZ missed the bus a long time ago about cementing its place as a respectable hub position on the continent. |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 74): The issue again is unit cost. AZ has very high fixed costs |
Quoting flyyul (Reply 74): FCO is in a very strategic geographic location to build flows from Middle East / Subcontinent via FCO to Europe/North America. Couple this - with very strong demand for leisure/capital traffic to Rome, this becomes a compelling opportunity. |
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 82): But at the end of the day what does AZ really bring to the market that is new? Whats unique about a Rome or Milan hub network? I don't think anything. |
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 82): To me the European hub game is already very crowded, and AZ missed the bus a long time ago about cementing its place as a respectable hub position on the continent. |
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 88): MUC, if it ever adds runways and a 2nd terminal, |
Quoting Aesma (Reply 95): IIRC Alitalia was already in the same position during the last Italian elections, with Berlusconi saying he would find backers for the airline... |
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 94): I can see good synergy between AF and AZ, however I tend to agree things might be very messy under a single umbrella with the Dutch left to watch the circus. |