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Schweigend
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LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:19 am

To satisfy EC antitrust regulators investigating their A++ Joint Venture, LH/UA are offering to relinquish NYC-FRA slots amounting to 7 weekly flights.

From Air Transport Weekly, 21 Dec:

Quote:
Competitors may choose which arrival and departure slots at Frankfurt and New York they take on to allow as many as seven additional weekly flights, the offer states. This could rise to 21 weekly flights if a rival pulls out of the route.
http://atwonline.com/airports-routes...ffer-slots-antitrust-approval-1221

So far as I know, only LH, UA, and DL serve the NYC-FRA route. Could AA be the one to restart JFK-FRA service? Right now they connect pax via LHR. Or might BA dare it? Air Berlin?

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docpepz
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:22 am

SQ serves it too daily.
 
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Schweigend
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:42 am

Quoting docpepz (Reply 1):

Hmmm, I wonder if SQ could be the one ATW is referring to when they talk about an additional 14 weekly flights "if a rival pulls out".

WHO might take up this offer? Who would like an NYC-FRA slot? I suppose DL could add a second daily flight....
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:44 am

AA needs to jump on this immediately. If not AA, the AB could certainly use those slots.
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fn1001
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:37 am

The huge capacity on this route needs FRA as a connecting hub with strong feeder traffic behind. I guess on the other side of the pond it is the same situation. My bet goes to Oneworld, since they have on both ends many connections.
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aloges
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:34 am

Quoting Schweigend (Thread starter):
Could AA be the one to restart JFK-FRA service?

I doubt it. They cut JFK and MIA and reduced DFW to a 767; there's just no oneworld connectivity at FRA.* So the only sensible connections for AA pax are train rides, but AFAIK AA is a long-standing partner in the German Railways' "Rail&Fly" programme (which makes train connections easier for airline passengers), yet they still discontinued JFK.

*You could of course connect to an AB flight at FRA, but if they make it until the opening of BER (whenever that may be), that will be their hub and not FRA. Apart from that, the only European oneworld members whose hubs aren't closer to the US than FRA are Finnair and S7 - but both HEL and MOW already have flights to JFK, so why connect in FRA?
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MAH4546
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:52 am

AA absolutely will apply for the slot. No ifs, ands or buts about it.
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AirAfreak
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:06 am

SIA will never pull out of JFK-FRA because they have the superior product, have operated this flight for decades, and have always had the demand long before the days of Star Alliance. SIA is above and beyond UA and LH. Remember, they have the service "even other airlines talk about."

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p.s. (why doesn't LH follow SQ. If SQ can offer the widest seat in Business, LH should follow.) Efficiency is CLEARLY not all-things German, when SQ has and can compete on JFK-FRA successfully with fewer seats in J. Come on LH, I expect you to think long-term, not short-term! (And don't ask me for a source, you know better!)
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:48 am

If SQ pulls out, they would no longer serve New York with the imminent end of SIN-EWR. Seeing as SQ often gets some high-yielding O&D traffic from JFK to Europe on that flight, I oubt they would pull out, at least unless they route the flight via another European destination.

Speaking of SQ, could they fly SIN-TLV-MIA or would they not receive overflight rights from Malaysia?
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:08 am

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 7):
Efficiency is CLEARLY not all-things German, when SQ has and can compete on JFK-FRA

Apply the SQ cost base and SIN work rules to Germany, otherwise you compare apples and peaches.

We have seen slot exchanges over the years where the incumbent carrier went back to the old system after a few years or even less. Such as VIE/FRA where Adria had 2 CRJ flights daily which could even be booked via LH, IIRC.

FRA is an LH/* fortress, AA could not compete efficiently due to the lack of connectivity. DL is no real competition to LH and besides that we have only * carriers on the route. besides, FRA is not really slot restricted for the next couple of years. the only times when slots are not available is after 9 pm, and that is artificial due to a stupid, unflexible night ban regulation.



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LJ
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:39 pm

Quoting Schweigend (Thread starter):
Could AA be the one to restart JFK-FRA service? Right now they connect pax via LHR. Or might BA dare it? Air Berlin?

Why would anyone want these slots? It's not that Star has to give up frequency (the only thing they offered are slots to start NYC-FRA), and thus any new flight will mean additional capcity.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 3):
AA needs to jump on this immediately. If not AA, the AB could certainly use those slots.

Why? They would have to compete with UA/LH, SQ and DL which mean you have to have a superior product (or lower price) in order to attract the current passengers on this route. AB will not be interested as I doubt EY sees something in this market. However, maybe something for QR?
 
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:40 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
Apply the SQ cost base and SIN work rules to Germany, otherwise you compare apples and peaches.

In the 2011 annual report the LH Group had 116,000 employees and staff costs were 6.8 bil Euros making for EUR58,000 cost per employee.

In the same time period, SQ (parent airline) had 22,000 employees and staff costs of SGD2.26 bil or EUR1.41 bil making for a wage bill of EUR64,000 per employee.

Sure we're not comparing apples and apples because I would really like to compare LH the airline vs SQ the airline, but I don't think their staff costs are too far apart. If not for the plunging EUR against the SGD, SQ staff costs would be marginally lower than LH.

From what I understand from SQ contacts, JFK as a standalone destination never made money but in SQ's management accounting they take the profitability of the whole route SIN-FRA-JFK vv which as a whole is profitable.

But devoting 3 A380s to this route with it sitting on the ground all day in JFK, there are probably better ways to utilise the asset.
 
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting docpepz (Reply 11):
But devoting 3 A380s to this route with it sitting on the ground all day in JFK, there are probably better ways to utilise the asset.

A380's sit at airports all day long because the its profitable to fly at night. AF & LH have A380's sitting all day at J'berg because Day time South Africa to Europe doesn't work.
 
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:55 pm

The SQ flight is considerably more money than either UA or LH. I fly to FRA a lot every year. I was there in Nov to connect to Moscow. I always choose United over LH because of LH's painful angled lie - bumps seat. The United lie flats are far better, especially outbound when it's all about sleep, and NYC to FRA is not a long flight.

So what will this mean? Less options on UA or LH?
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jfklganyc
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:18 pm

I am confused...what is a NYC-FRA slot?

Isnt there open skies? Cant any carrier start service JFK-FRA when they wanted?

Is this a slot issue in FRA?

And can UA/LH give the carrier any slot it wants without discontinuing its own service?
 
ikramerica
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:25 pm

Slots? Maybe just a cap on flights so they can't flood market against competition?
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Viscount724
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:50 pm

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 7):
SIA will never pull out of JFK-FRA because they have the superior product, have operated this flight for decades, and have always had the demand long before the days of Star Alliance.

I disagree. When/if there's an aircraft that can economically operate JFK-SIN nonstop I expect SQ will drop the 5th freedom tagon FRA-JFK. Those types of operations are far fewer than they used to be and 5th freedom services usually have lower yields. I've often found SQ to have the lowest fares on the FRA-JFK-FRA route. When it's part of another longhaul route you also can't design the schedule to fully meet the needs of the 5th freedom market since the departure and arrival times at SIN are more critical, as well as the night curfew at FRA..
 
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 3):
AA needs to jump on this immediately. If not AA, the AB could certainly use those slots

AA recently abandoning JFK-FRA does not bode well for them returning. I don't think anything has changed since then that would make a new AA JFK-FRA service successful. AA even closed its AAdmiral lounge at FRA, no?

As for AB, I am not too sure. AB's hubs are DUS and TXL, so they would not have the advantage of connections other than to a very few airports

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
DL is no real competition to LH and besides that we have only * carriers on the route.

There is DL flying JFK-FRA.
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 14):

But JFK and EWR are both slot-controlled airports.
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:58 pm

If AA did not wnat to serve FRA-JFK, what about Openskies? It would mean the acquisition of more 757s for Openskies, bur given it's now a member of oneworld, and if it wa schasing the premium market (Business and premium economy, with a smaill economy section) then maybe it could work. Especially as it would be part of the AA/BA/IB JV, so there may be some corporate clients of AA who would appreciate such a flight.
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ikramerica
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 18):

But not destination specific. And any EU airline can start new service to EWR tomorrow.
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jfklganyc
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 18):
But JFK and EWR are both slot-controlled airports.

JFK has plenty of slots available. I don't know about FRA.

But is the flight from JFK or EWR?

Just to say: "They need to give up slots NYC-FRA" makes no sense.

Open skies between the 2 countries.

Slots at FRA? Slots at JFK? Slots at EWR?

Where/what/how?

The thread is a bit ambiguous
 
aaexecplat
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 17):
AA recently abandoning JFK-FRA does not bode well for them returning. I don't think anything has changed since then that would make a new AA JFK-FRA service successful. AA even closed its AAdmiral lounge at FRA, no?

Errr..."recently abandoning JFK-FRA" and "I don't think anything has changed since then..." aren't helping your credibility on this topic. The JFK-FRA flight was axed in November 2000. 12 Years ago. And a significant event that has happened since then is Chapter 11, thereby lowering AA's costs. The route may very well be viable now.
 
kyrone
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:08 pm

Watch this be Qatar's followup to JFK-ATH, QR metal on JFK-FRA.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:51 pm

"Slots" usually refer to a allocation of landing/takeoff positions at an airport that is "full." For example, LHR is full given it only has two runways so slots are allocated. There are so many slots available for given time periods.

There is nothing ambiguous about the thread, the release states what LH and UA are offering in terms of giving up slots if required by regulators to get their joint venture approved.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:46 pm

I doubt that we will see JFK/EWR-FRA on a new carrier without a hub at either end anytime soon, especially since the route is already flown by 3 carriers and relies heavily on connections.
 
EddieDude
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:10 am

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 22):
Errr..."recently abandoning JFK-FRA" and "I don't think anything has changed since then..." aren't helping your credibility on this topic. The JFK-FRA flight was axed in November 2000. 12 Years ago. And a significant event that has happened since then is Chapter 11, thereby lowering AA's costs. The route may very well be viable now.

Oops, I was seriously confused with ORD-FRA, which was cancelled by AA recently. Apologies for the confusion. While I do appreciate being corrected, i don't appreciate your tone of attack. Merry Christmas to you and lighten up.
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PanHAM
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RE: LH/UA May Give Up NYC-FRA Slots For JV

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:39 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 17):
There is DL flying JFK-FRA.

yes, that's what I said, besides DL there are only * members on that route.

The whole story does not make sense at all. LH has agreed to such "slots changes" before and not a single carrier having taken up these slots has succeeded.

Looks like the EU commission still has not understood the hib system.
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