VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 2187
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

United 787 Test Flying

Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:25 pm

If I am not mistaken UA has 25 787's coming and should have 5 by end of Jan and 10 perhaps within another 12 months (I am not perfectly clear on the delivery schedules, also when the 25 additional sUA 787's arrive. My question is will they keep doing domestic test / training flights for each frame delivered? All 50? So while a handful will be flying long hauls, will the newness of this type require continued training for crews etc for each frame? Or, after XX frames have been used on domestic flying - can United take delivery of a 787 and put it right into international service?

Also, will UA actually retire a 767 soon after a 787 arrives, (one for one) or will some 767s be kept for future growth? Those 767-400's still look awesome, but that's how they look, not how they perform. But I can think of some very good destinations start to open up with the additions of brand new ac or replace some 757 TATL routes.

Thx
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:43 pm

UA is retiring some 752's that were sUA frames. There has been talk that some of the three class 767s will be retired in a few years but there is no firm date that I recall.

Unlike airlines such as BA, UA hasn't stated they are retiring certain a/c 1 for 1 when the 787's arrive. In fact, the routes announced by UA replace 777s aside from the one new route (DEN to NRT).
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
can United take delivery of a 787 and put it right into international service?

Yes they can and will. Domestic proving runs are more based on operational needs of the airline than the airplane. The airline is still doing crew familiarization, maintenance training, ease of rebooking etc. Once they put the 787s on international service, I doubt they will keep domestic proving runs much longer. The only domestic hub to hub flights would be for fleet utilization and repositioning.

Upon delivery, there is usually a 3-6 month period when an airplane has less than optimal dispatch reliability. Boeing and Airbus strive to get all the problems fixed that are caused during manufacturing before delivery. However some always get through despite how robust the ground and flight testing is. New airplanes only have a few test flights before delivery, so some problems get through which can cause some delays and cancellations early on due to infant mortality. That is usually fixed within a few months. The initial entry into service problems are always even more significant for new airplanes. Domestic routes mean that UA won't have to worry about operating the 787 to contract maintenance stations or minimally supported maintenance bases. Also when there are delays and cancellations, rebooking is very easy on hub to hub routes. And finally diversions while operating ETOPS flights are bad, and UA wants to get some familiarity before going ETOPS. The last thing UA wants is a diversion to Adak Alaska or worse.

The airplane is ready to go long haul, but it is UA being conservative.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
mcdu
Posts: 895
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 2):
And finally diversions while operating ETOPS flights are bad, and UA wants to get some familiarity before going ETOPS. The last thing UA wants is a diversion to Adak Alaska or worse

It's not UA that needs to get familiar with the 787. UA operates thousands of etops flights each week. The weak link in the chain is the reliability of the 787. Not only did Boeing fumble delivery they have fumbled execution of the type. This airplane is very unreliable. If I were to book a trip on one I would not put money on it operating or being ontime. It's an albatross. Wish we had ordered more 777's and even 767's. the 787 is going to cost the airline dearly in the long run.

Boeing should be ashamed of themselves for delivering this plastic nightmare.
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 3):
It's not UA that needs to get familiar with the 787. UA operates thousands of etops flights each week. The weak link in the chain is the reliability of the 787. Not only did Boeing fumble delivery they have fumbled execution of the type. This airplane is very unreliable. If I were to book a trip on one I would not put money on it operating or being ontime. It's an albatross. Wish we had ordered more 777's and even 767's. the 787 is going to cost the airline dearly in the long run.

Boeing should be ashamed of themselves for delivering this plastic nightmare.

I don't suppose you have any statistics to back up this broadside? Its true Boeing blew it in how long it took them to get the a/c to their customers but to make a blanket statement saying the a/c is unreliable doesn't add up. ANA has 17 of these aircraft so far and hasn't pitched a fit about reliability.

The 787 has had some issues which happens with every new a/c. Keep in mind that not only is the body different but they've made a lot of changes in other areas compared with the 777 (the last "new" a/c Boeing introduced in 1995).

To say its an "albatross" is just silly given the number of orders pending.
 
AADC10
Posts: 1506
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 3):
It's not UA that needs to get familiar with the 787.

There is some need for familiarity. With only 3 currently in the fleet, many FAs do not have any direct experience with the 787 beyond the door simulator and for the most part it has been operated with IAH based crews.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:18 pm

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 4921
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:46 pm

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Also, will UA actually retire a 767 soon after a 787 arrives, (one for one) or will some 767s be kept for future growth?

It's not a 1 for 1 thing, but clearly the 787 will replace some 767 capacity.

UA is already in the process of retiring the sCO 767-200ERs.

Next up will be the "old" batch of sUA 767-300ERs, currently configured as 3-class.

The "new" batch of sUA 767-300ERs and the 767-400ERs will be around for awhile. I'd expect UA to retire some early 772s before retiring those later 767s.

The 767-400ER, incidentally, has very competitive economics even today on those routes which it has the range to fly. Its issues are 1) short range and 2) inability to take LD3s.
 
VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 2187
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 7):

Will there still be some 3 class sUA 767's flying for a while? I happen to like those 767's in both F & J. I know economy leaves a lot to be desired.
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:05 pm

The three class 767s are fine in Y except for the lack of AVOD. The room and 2-3-2 seating are great. These a/c fly on routes under eight hours so folks can use their tablets/phones for entertainment if they don't like the looped movies.
 
VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 2187
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:14 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):

Oops, I don't know why my post posted twice?

So, United has their first 5, these were sCO orders correct? When are the next ones coming?

Also, will the 787's sUA ordered have the entry arch? And we don't seem to think they will get Global First? Even for the Asia flights? If they come in with the arch and with a 4 to 6 GF cabin, I assume more test runs may be needed?

I do enjoy the 767-400 very much, I am on one tomorrow to Rio.
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 4921
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:34 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 8):
Will there still be some 3 class sUA 767's flying for a while?

I'm sure there will be. If nothing else, UA won't have enough 787s to replace their capacity for at least a few years.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 11):
So, United has their first 5, these were sCO orders correct? When are the next ones coming?

One more (ln 45) is coming in January and then there will be another batch of five later in 2013 to fill out the initial sCO order. My understanding is that the sUA order for 25 787-8s will be filled in 2014-2015, but that could change.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 11):
And we don't seem to think they will get Global First? Even for the Asia flights?

I think economic reality dictates that Global First will be present on fewer and fewer aircraft, and they will tend to be the larger aircraft. I could be wrong; I'm not sure plans are set in stone yet.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 9):
The three class 767s are fine in Y except for the lack of AVOD.

And the primitive-looking old 767 interior, complete with tiny bins that can only fit rollaboards sideways.

[Edited 2012-12-24 14:37:56]
 
VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 2187
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:16 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 12):

I agree on the 767-3 refit, the F and J look great and Y looks like the back of a 707 was glued on. They should have at least continued the Boeing signature bins.
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
 
mcdu
Posts: 895
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:22 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 4):
I don't suppose you have any statistics to back up this broadside? Its true Boeing blew it in how long it took them to get the a/c to their customers but to make a blanket statement saying the a/c is unreliable doesn't add up.

Statistics? It has rarely flown the domestic schedule it is slated to fly each day. The thing is dispatch unreliable. There have been numerous electrical issues and currently it isn't allowed to be plugged into ground power. It has to have the APU running. APU fails and the airplane is dead in the water.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 4):
To say its an "albatross" is just silly given the number of orders pending.

There are plenty of orders. However, what the airlines ordered and what is being delivered SEVERAL years late are two different things. I think there will be a significant number of order cancels going forward. Boeing has always had the ability to create "field of dreams" airplanes in the "if we build it, they will come" mentality. In the case of the B787 if may very well be that airlines with orders may turn away from the airplane in future.

The first several UA airplanes are under performers. Boeing is paying penalties to UA because they can not make the IAH to LOS nonstop service. Also, they would not have been able to fly IAH AKL as was the original plan. Boeing won't modify the airplanes so UA has a set of airplanes that will be truly Albatross members of the fleet.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 3621
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:11 am

Quoting mcdu (Reply 14):
Boeing is paying penalties to UA because they can not make the IAH to LOS nonstop service.

Do you have any proof of this?
Not every day we find light winds. What do we do in these situations? Fly.
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:25 am

Quoting mcdu (Reply 14):

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 4):
I don't suppose you have any statistics to back up this broadside? Its true Boeing blew it in how long it took them to get the a/c to their customers but to make a blanket statement saying the a/c is unreliable doesn't add up.

Statistics? It has rarely flown the domestic schedule it is slated to fly each day. The thing is dispatch unreliable. There have been numerous electrical issues and currently it isn't allowed to be plugged into ground power. It has to have the APU running. APU fails and the airplane is dead in the water.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 4):
To say its an "albatross" is just silly given the number of orders pending.

There are plenty of orders. However, what the airlines ordered and what is being delivered SEVERAL years late are two different things. I think there will be a significant number of order cancels going forward. Boeing has always had the ability to create "field of dreams" airplanes in the "if we build it, they will come" mentality. In the case of the B787 if may very well be that airlines with orders may turn away from the airplane in future.

The first several UA airplanes are under performers. Boeing is paying penalties to UA because they can not make the IAH to LOS nonstop service. Also, they would not have been able to fly IAH AKL as was the original plan. Boeing won't modify the airplanes so UA has a set of airplanes that will be truly Albatross members of the fleet.

Did you follow the links from post #6? I know they had a divert on one a/c with repairs conducted as described in other threads. I see from looking at the operational history of those aircraft that they've been flying and completing their scheduled runs. I can't speak the APU operational issue you alleged, perhaps a UA employee can clear that up. It could be precautionary until there is a final word given on what happened on that diverted flight.

I can't find any evidence to support your allegation that Boeing is paying UA penalties regarding the IAH to LOS service. You are implying the aircraft can't fly that route - its well within the range of the aircraft. If you have proof regarding this fact, do share.

As for IAH - AKL, that route was cancelled due to the global downturn though UA tried to claim it was due to their tantrum about HOU hosting international flights in a few years.

What modifications did UA request that Boeing refused to do?

[Edited 2012-12-24 19:28:05]
 
User avatar
zkokq
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:44 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:25 am

Quoting mcdu (Reply 14):

I have read some stuff on this site, by by god what you're saying is making me laugh out so hard. You clearly have a dislike for the Dreamliner.

We all accept its entry into service has been tough, but I think your prediction will go the opposite way and more orders will flow in. Look at the A380. All the issues its having, its still a stellar aircraft and will continue to be

With society today and access of information (forums, facebook, twitter) easier than ever to get, then of course its going to look a lot worse than most other entries of service. And then you have people using these forms of media to sway peoples options of what is otherwise a normal situation.

Hardly be an albatross with as many orders as it currently has. Most airlines are eager to get the i would assume.
 
hkcanadaexpat
Posts: 1199
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:33 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:52 am

Fingers crossed. UA's 787s are on a hot streak. 3 straight days of full schedules without cancellations.
They've actually added additional flights to LAX/ORD/DEN. Let's hope they've turned the corner!
 
Transpac787
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:15 am

Quoting mcdu (Reply 14):
The first several UA airplanes are under performers. Boeing is paying penalties to UA because they can not make the IAH to LOS nonstop service.

You better quickly pass this info along to the UA brass, because IAH-LOS on 787 starts on 30JAN using nothing but the "original 6" of the 787's.
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:23 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 7):
The 767-400ER, incidentally, has very competitive economics even today on those routes which it has the range to fly. Its issues are 1) short range and 2) inability to take LD3s.

767's can accept LD3's in a 1LD3 next to an LD2 configuration.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:16 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 4):
To say its an "albatross" is just silly given the number of orders pending.

...orders pending say nothing about a plane's actual performance.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 16):
You are implying the aircraft can't fly that route - its well within the range of the aircraft.

Can you prove that? Can you prove the actual range of the aircraft?

Show us.

NS
 
flood
Posts: 1045
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:05 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:21 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 16):
Did you follow the links from post #6? I know they had a divert on one a/c with repairs conducted as described in other threads. I see from looking at the operational history of those aircraft that they've been flying and completing their scheduled runs.

Flightaware's history merely shows what flew, not what was originally scheduled. It doesn't show, for example, the 68 flights which had been substituted by other types since December 7th. Around 32 of those can be directly attributed to the extended 'groundings' of 902 and 906 due to the panel issues.

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 18):
Fingers crossed. UA's 787s are on a hot streak. 3 straight days of full schedules without cancellations.

While not a cancellation, I think their luck ended today when 902 apparently went tech and flight 1430 to LAX was operated by 906 instead with a 2hr 40min delay. Things have definitely improved over the past few days though, and it looks like they're aiming for a record 16 flights on Tuesday. They've added a second DEN and triple ORD.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 14):
currently it isn't allowed to be plugged into ground power.

Can you elaborate?

Quoting mcdu (Reply 3):
the 787 is going to cost the airline dearly in the long run.

Why's that? They may have suffered some bad PR since the MSY diversion and given the number of substitutions this month, but ANA's fleet seems to be doing fine and they're happy with the 787's performance. UA's problems too will soon be a thing of the past.
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:33 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 22):
Can you prove that? Can you prove the actual range of the aircraft?

Show us.

Ah, I GET IT!

Airlines are in the habit of purchasing aircraft with a range that can vary by thousands of miles from the manufacturer's claim whilst spending BILLIONS of dollars. Then they compound their error by scheduling said aircraft to fly from places like:

DEN to NRT (5,787 mi);
LAX to NRT (5,451);
LAX to PVG (6,485);
IAH to LOS (6,512 mi) and
IAH to AMS (5,012 mi)

while having no idea if the aircraft will run out of fuel somewhere over the middle of the sea.

Come on folks, lets put away the tin foil hats and rabbit ears. The 787-8 won't have a range issue on these routes.

Quoting flood (Reply 23):
Flightaware's history merely shows what flew, not what was originally scheduled. It doesn't show, for example, the 68 flights which had been substituted by other types since December 7th. Around 32 of those can be directly attributed to the extended 'groundings' of 902 and 906 due to the panel issues.

Thanks for the correction.
 
akelley728
Posts: 1964
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 1999 12:35 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:26 am

Quoting mcdu (Reply 14):
Boeing won't modify the airplanes so UA has a set of airplanes that will be truly Albatross members of the fleet.

Can you elaborate on this?
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:10 am

Quoting mcdu (Reply 13):
The first several UA airplanes are under performers. Boeing is paying penalties to UA because they can not make the IAH to LOS nonstop service. Also, they would not have been able to fly IAH AKL as was the original plan. Boeing won't modify the airplanes so UA has a set of airplanes that will be truly Albatross members of the fleet.

I flew was in IAH a few weeks ago when they were giving tours of the 787 and the chief training pilot of the 787 program was telling us how they were flying to LAX at FL400 and burning at least 20% less fuel than a similarly sized plane. He also made a comment about if the flew 3 787 in formation to CDG to have a similar passenger load as the AF or LH (I can't remember which airline flies it to IAH) A380 that flies there they would burn less fuel. So all this bragging from a man that has flown the plane a great deal doesn't seem like disappointment to me.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
ordwaw
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 9:55 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:47 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 21):
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 16):
You are implying the aircraft can't fly that route - its well within the range of the aircraft.

Can you prove that? Can you prove the actual range of the aircraft?

This is to prove ...

IAH-LOS is 6512 miles

ET 501 connects non-stop IAD-ADD, a distance of 7193 miles, on its B787-8

[Edited 2012-12-25 03:49:32]
 
mcdu
Posts: 895
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:58 pm

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/United...ng-theflyonthewall-3706979489.html

The 737's were severely discounted to attempt to make up for the above lawsuit. Just hope Boeing doesn't drop the ball with the MAX. They can ill afford to repeat the problems of the 787, of course they have plenty of orders so to some that makes it a success. As an operator, meeting specs and making a profit with the tool purchased is what counts.

Quoting flood (Reply 22):
Can you elaborate?
Yes, there is a directive to NOT connect the B787 to ground power due to issues involving the electronics of the airplane. This is an internal company communication and it is intended to hopefully keep the airplane flying. There have been numerous equipment substitutions for the 787's in our ops. When it does land somewhere that it is intended to land it breaks down with technical issues at a very alarming rate. I was one of the early groups of pilots at UA to fly the B777. We did not have near the number of tech issues the 787 is having.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 23):
Airlines are in the habit of purchasing aircraft with a range that can vary by thousands of miles from the manufacturer's claim whilst spending BILLIONS of dollars. Then they compound their error by scheduling said aircraft to fly from places like:
Quoting ordwaw (Reply 26):
This is to prove ...

IAH-LOS is 6512 miles

ET 501 connects non-stop IAD-ADD, a distance of 7193 miles, on its B787-8

The first 6 UA airplanes are overweight for BOW and are high burners over promised from Boeing. Thus the airplane CAN fly these routes, it just does it with a penalty in payload. I am sure you could empty a B787 and fly it to the end of the Boeing range numbers. However, the first 6 UA is taking don't allow for full seats on a IAH to LOS routing. Perhaps ET's airplanes enjoy the changes to get the airplanes to meet specs. If you want an empty seat next to you I would book a 787 long haul flight at UA until the +6 airplanes arrive.

I have been a champion of Boeing for many years. Have flown the 727,737,747,757,767,777 and the A320. Hands down I have always preferred the Boeing but what I see and know about the 787 program it is not endearing the Boeing. My belief is that this airplane is going to be a bad piece of equipment to have in your stable going forward.
 
ordwaw
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 9:55 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 26):
Quoting gigneil (Reply 21):
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 16):
You are implying the aircraft can't fly that route - its well within the range of the aircraft.

Can you prove that? Can you prove the actual range of the aircraft?

This is to prove ...

IAH-LOS is 6512 miles

ET 501 connects non-stop IAD-ADD, a distance of 7193 miles, on its B787-8

Did some more digging, and it appears that ET connects ADD with both YYZ and IAD, however, ONLY the eastward flights are non-stop. Apparently, the westward flights have a technical stop at FCO.

So 7,100 mile routes appear to be beyond PRACTICAL (with reasonable PAX and cargo) abilities of B787. (at least for now)
 
VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 2187
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:15 pm

NOVICE HERE! Isn't the 787 more different an aircraft than anything that has preceded it? The size of the technological leap from a 767 to a 777 was not as much a leap as a 777 to a 787. Point I am asking is...wouldn't all these bumps be natural with so much of the aircraft being unprecedented? Also...(and please I don't want to turn this into a 747-8 thread) but isn't much of the new 747-8 (intercontinental and F) created with much of the 787 technology, thus far, an almost problem free airplane? With a number flying for LH and freight carriers, I have only read how well the 747-8 performs. (perhaps I have missed reading about 747-8 problems) So why would there be such a difference in reliability? Remember I am a novice! So be kind!

Last, for those who feel most negative about the 787, if I am on it, am I safe? Do you feel the multiple tech issues translate into any safety issues? Because I just cannot believe either A or B would deliver aircraft that they were not sure was 100% safe.

LAST: do you feel United should be test flying more before going over an ocean?
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 3331
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:31 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 3):
This airplane is very unreliable.

Check with JAL and see how many times BOS-NRT has gone 'tech.' Then come back and re-think your blanket statement. One could easily conclude that JAL people know what they're doing and UA people don't. That's no less 'silly' than what you just said.
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:07 pm

mcdu, if you are a pilot and you have flown every a/c - then you know machines have issues. Aircraft go tech everyday for some reason or other. The APU issue will be resolved and the internal directive you mentioned is intended to prevent any electrical issues until they get confirmation from Boeing of the fix.

As for the weight issues, UA has aircraft up to L/N 77 I believe at this point. That a/c should be very close to spec though the actual weight target won't be reached till L/N 90 IIRC.

The fact UA sought compensation for the 787 delays is nothing new. Boeing took a serious bath compensating airlines for the delays. Some of it includes discounts on the frames and some discounts on other aircraft types. Its what happens.

As mentioned above, JAL hasn't had many issues with their 787s. A few have gone tech but not many. mcdu, you of all people should know that a brand new a/c with brand new design concepts will have initial issues. If you don't have the patience to put up with the teething issues, perhaps you should bid back to the 737?
 
United1
Posts: 2830
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 27):
My belief is that this airplane is going to be a bad piece of equipment to have in your stable going forward.

I'm not going to go that far...I think the 787 is going to be a great asset to UA and any airline going forward but I also think that its going to take a while to get the bugs worked out.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 30):
Check with JAL and see how many times BOS-NRT has gone 'tech.'

The flight has an on-time rating of 67%...not bad but certainly not exactly a stellar performer either. Both JAL and ANA have had their share of issues with the 787's... which seemed to start to go away about 6 to 9 months after they became familiar with the aircraft.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
ordbosewr
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:30 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 30):
Check with JAL and see how many times BOS-NRT has gone 'tech.' Then come back and re-think your blanket statement. One could easily conclude that JAL people know what they're doing and UA people don't. That's no less 'silly' than what you just said.

I will not use UA as the example of reliability of the aircraft. I will use the carrier that has the most of the type and flown it the most, that is obviously NH. They have spoken highly of the dispatch reliability. Is it perfect, no, but they are not using the words disappointed or unsatisfactory, which would be horrible words to hear from a Japanese carrier on the topic

http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...one-year-of-boeing-787-operations/

Sometimes it is not the plane but the carrier!!! I will admit I am a UA fan, but I would blame UA more than the type on this issues that mcdu raises.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18850
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 3):
ot only did Boeing fumble delivery they have fumbled execution of the type. This airplane is very unreliable. If I were to book a trip on one I would not put money on it operating or being ontime. It's an albatross. Wish we had ordered more 777's and even 767's. the 787 is going to cost the airline dearly in the long run.

Boeing should be ashamed of themselves for delivering this plastic nightmare.

An article on the 787 in a recent Aviation Week & Space Technology quoted someone at Boeing stating that the 38 787s already in service at that time achieved a 99% reliability record during the first year of service by the type. I doubt many other new types have achieved a better record.
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 3331
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 32):
The flight has an on-time rating of 67%.

You could blame that on a pilot who slept late or on bad weather in Japan or Boston...neither of which are the 'fault' of the plane itself.
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:31 pm

That 67% figure accounts for all delays, not just those attributed directly to the 787.
 
United1
Posts: 2830
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 35):
neither of which are the 'fault' of the plane itself.

Didn't say that they were but that doesn't exclude aircraft issues either. Like I said I think the 787 is going to be a great aircraft but I think its going to take a few months for any carrier that takes delivery of them to really work the bugs out and get comfortable with the aircraft.

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 33):
Sometimes it is not the plane but the carrier!!!

UA has quite a bit of experience in putting new types of aircraft in service ...777, 767, 727...not to mention being an early customer for the 747, 737 and DC-10. Right now UA is much more likely to cancel a 787 flight when they have something relativity minor happen while they build up experience with the aircraft and get comfortable with deciding whether its a critical issue or something that can be deferred.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:59 pm

United1 is spot-on. UA is taking a conservative approach with hub to hub domestic flights to get comfortable with how this aircraft operates. Toss in the electrical diversion and they are rightly taking a go-it-slow approach.

I suspect they pushed back the international schedule a bit to ensure they have a good grasp of how this a/c behaves and to publish work-arounds for those issues while working with Boeing to solve the issues.

Also, did the UA engineering dept receive as much training and work-up as NH? Given they were the launch customer, they may have had a bit more time/training to get comfortable with the foibles of this a/c as opposed to the minimum required training.

@vc10 - I would not feel "unsafe" on this a/c. No it won't explode of the Atlantic or anything  Smile They've had some issues but remember that it has multiple redundencies for each system.

As for over-water flights, UA already has flown test flights with the FAA. They went to AMS and NRT from IAH. Included in that was a "unplanned" diversion to KEF to test UA's procedures for dealing with diversions during an intercontinental flight.

They've also done revenue flights to Europe already.

[Edited 2012-12-25 10:45:59]
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 37):
UA has quite a bit of experience...

You're right, UA does. How about the CO guys running the airline now (and introducing the 787 on the sCO side). If the rest of the merger is anything to go on, the pmUA experience means nothing.

Regardless, this is a very different airplane. Nobody at UA has experience with the complex bleed less electrical system used on the 787, which seems to be related to most of the tech issues. Coincidence? The reliability will improve. It saddens me to see experienced pilots calling the 787 a bad product after indirect experience with the airplane for less than 4 months. You should know better.
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:47 pm

Perhaps the 787 will show some old(er) dogs new tricks?   
 
United1
Posts: 2830
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 40):
You're right, UA does. How about the CO guys running the airline now (and introducing the 787 on the sCO side). If the rest of the merger is anything to go on, the pmUA experience means nothing.

While they are using the PMCO program, with a few modifications, to launch the aircraft (PMUA hadn't planned on taking delivery of the aircraft until 2016 so their program was not ready to roll yet) to say that PMCO is running the show is quite frankly ignorant. UA TechOps is very much involved....

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 40):
Coincidence? The reliability will improve. It saddens me to see experienced pilots calling the 787 a bad product after indirect experience with the airplane for less than 4 months. You should know better.

Indeed it will and has already....
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 2187
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:51 pm

Ironically, I am sitting in BF on a UA 767-400 (lovely bird) and a 787 just rolled by.

She clearly looks different than anything else, perhaps for a novice like me to conclude that United's conservative approach is wise.

As for "is she safe" I was joking a bit after reading that she's an unreliable albatross - in fact I feel very safe on United. I have always heard their TechOps was one of pmUA's greatest assets.

Off to Rio now. I wonder if I will live to see the 787 from EWR to Brazil?
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:13 pm

Enjoy Rio!!!

I think you'll see the 787 in some form flying to GIG from EWR.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:36 am

Look I wasn't trying to be a dick earlier, I'm clearly in the boat that says the 787 is going to be an outstanding asset to United.

But I think its shortsighted to rate the introduction into service as stellar, or even good. I'm going to go with "okay".

Now, part of that isn't the plane doesn't work, or that the technicians maintaining them or the pilots operating them don't know their craft. But it is such a radical departure from previous devices of its kind that a steep and somewhat slippery reliability curve is almost a foregone conclusion.

NS
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 43):
Now, part of that isn't the plane doesn't work, or that the technicians maintaining them or the pilots operating them don't know their craft. But it is such a radical departure from previous devices of its kind that a steep and somewhat slippery reliability curve is almost a foregone conclusion.

Agree 100% and I for one didn't take your comments for being a dick lol.

There is a ton of new technology plus a learning curve for the engineering dept. We can expect some issues for a bit. If NH avoided them, its because they spent more time, more money and sent more of their engineers over the Boeing to get familiar with things.
 
mcdu
Posts: 895
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 37):
Also, did the UA engineering dept receive as much training and work-up as NH? Given they were the launch customer, they may have had a bit more time/training to get comfortable with the foibles of this a/c as opposed to the minimum required training.

A big problem for the airplane and the mechanics working the airplane are the lapses in delivery target dates. There is a lead time required to get the mechanics up to speed on the airplane just like pilots and FA's. Some will have had their training lapse before the airplane arrived due to the delays from Boeing.

However looking at the maintenance items that are showing up for the airplane it is numerous electrical issues that trigger status messages that will not clear. I have a good friend that is a check airman on the airplane and he said the fortified door lock has caused tons of issues. He says it faults on a regular basis on ALL of the delivered airplanes so it isn't a one off problem. This is just one of many of the problems the airplane has had.

The appearance is that Boeing delivered a less than ready product. Maybe we can get them covered under the national "lemon laws"
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:24 pm

Sounds like Boeing needs to have an engineering team down at IAH to assist with troubleshooting and repair. Given the next UA a/c is the last of the ones that require rework, I think the delivery target dates will firm up.

It sounds like these electrical problems are a Pain in the ***. The hotline to PAE will need to stay running for a bit.
 
Transpac787
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:47 pm

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 46):
Sounds like Boeing needs to have an engineering team down at IAH to assist with troubleshooting and repair.

They already do.

I flew on two 787's last week and both times through IAH there were a ton of personnel wearing Boeing vests that met the airplane, both inside and out.
 
T5towbar
Posts: 428
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:01 pm

On the 787 we cannot plug up any ground power. The funny thing is that this bird has three power plugs . The third plug is for electric starts if there is an APU failure. I' m used to air starting an A/C if there are issues, but with the 787 is does not require an air start. I haven't seen this come up yet since aircraft is worked on while APU is running.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: United 787 Test Flying

Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:12 pm

I have heard the quality of ground power was the issue with that. You need it to be perfectly clean, and for the moment they've recommended not using it.

NS