ei737ng
Topic Author
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:28 am

Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:16 pm

Just wondering why EI purchased the 747 considering Ireland's population size how did the fleet planners ever hope to fill them? A case of fleet misplanners?
 
tonystan
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:31 pm

Like most things at the time you will discover that the 747 purchase was driven by politics and vanity. It was not an aircraft EI needed nor could they ever operate it efficiently. The aircraft spent much of their time farmed away on contract to other carriers.

The A330 basically saved Aer Lingus in my opinion!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3217
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:38 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
Like most things at the time you will discover that the 747 purchase was driven by politics and vanity.

Yup. The "everyone else has it so I should, too" mentality.

But, have no fear, they weren't the only ones. History is littered with others who did the same...TP comes to mind with their 747-200's.

Did EI's 747's fly to BOS at all?
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
The aircraft spent much of their time farmed away on contract to other carriers.

LAN Chile was one carrier that leased the 747 from EI.

EI-BED at SCL:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Luis Calvo Fly-News

 
kaitak
Posts: 8951
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
The aircraft spent much of their time farmed away on contract to other carriers.

They certainly spent quite a lot of their time with other carriers; indeed, one of their managers responsible for fleet leasing was a gentleman by the name of Tony Ryan, who went on to lead GPA. No one ever heard from him again!  
Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
The A330 basically saved Aer Lingus in my opinion!

In fairness, the A330 was - and indeed remains - a superb aircraft for Aer Lingus.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 2):
Did EI's 747's fly to BOS at all?

Absolutely, right up until it retired; indeed, it also operated to ORD via BOS for a while (I did that as a pax, DUB-SNN-BOS-ORD ... wow, that was a trip and a half!)

Joking apart, the 747 did serve EI quite well; ok, at the outset, everyone got them because it was the optimism of the 1960s and fuel was cheap. Almost as soon as they got them, the world economy was going south and then there was the fuel crisis of the '70s and of course, the troubles in Northern Ireland and for a long time, EI was only operating one of them. That said, by the late '70s, EI had acquired a third aircraft - LH's third -100, which became EI-BED - and they were operating reasonably successfully with them, never VERY profitably, but certainly lifting quite a good number of pax. One of the 747s, EI-BED, was operated in a 468 seat all-Y class layout, and they certainly filled them.

Towards the end, they became quite difficult to maintain and what really caused a problem was the Shannon stopover policy, which added a lot of costs, not just in fuel, but also in pressure cycles; it was for a long time the shortest 747 flight in the world and was done in about 25 minutes. In the end, the then Executive Chairman of EI, Bernie Cahill, went to the then transport minister, Brian Cowen, and told him that if the country wanted to have continued t/a services, that had to change. It was, and the airline ordered A330s and sadly, the old 747s were retired.

I think it's fair to say that they were much loved and much missed by everyone who had anything to do with them - passengers and crews alike. Yeah, the A330 was more modern, all singing and all dancing, but they never could match the presence of the 747. They'll always be fresh in the memory.

Here's a nice little video, narrated by the airline's senior 747 captain of the time, the late Aidan Quigley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E-iMDMz8HM

... and here's a few gratuitous pictures:

In original colours ...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Williams



In the 1970s-80s Aer Lingus livery:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Fergal Goodman


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Fergal Goodman



and finally, alas, cruel fate:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ian Tate

 
User avatar
BasilFawlty
Posts: 798
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:23 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:03 am

Quoting ei737ng (Thread starter):
Just wondering why EI purchased the 747 considering Ireland's population size how did the fleet planners ever hope to fill them? A case of fleet misplanners?

More a case of prestige, like most airlines in that era.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
User avatar
AmricanShamrok
Posts: 1803
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:03 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 2):
Did EI's 747's fly to BOS at all?
Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
Absolutely, right up until it retired; indeed, it also operated to ORD via BOS for a while (I did that as a pax, DUB-SNN-BOS-ORD ... wow, that was a trip and a half!)

Yes indeed, my first ever flights were the SNN-BOS-ORD runs on the 747. The flight numbers were EI123/EI122.
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:21 am

EI at least has a trans Atlantic route to operate them on. National, Eastern, Continental, and Delta all operated the 747-100, and ordered them for competitive reasons.
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:26 am

In 1970 it was very much a prestige thing to have the 747 in your fleet. Airlines advertised the arrival of their own months before they took delivery. It was truly a matter of pride.

I remember in the early 70's seeing a British Airways, Aer Lingus and Pan Am 747 at ORD at the old international terminal (Where Terminal 1 now sits) all in a row. It was a very impressive sight.

At the time Aer Lingus used to advertise package deals where you start your European vacation in Ireland and then see the other countries after that.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6580
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:51 am

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 2):
But, have no fear, they weren't the only ones. History is littered with others who did the same...TP comes to mind with their 747-200's.

Or like Emirates?
Made from jets!
 
FI642
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:48 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:15 am

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
The A330 basically saved Aer Lingus in my opinion!

I could not agree more!
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3217
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:52 am

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 9):
Or like Emirates?

Interesting...did not know they had 747's...but then again, I only know of Emirates in the 2000's and not their previous history
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
User avatar
BreninTW
Posts: 1539
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:31 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:55 am

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 11):
Interesting...did not know they had 747's...but then again, I only know of Emirates in the 2000's and not their previous history

It appears they haven't ... at least not in PAX use, there are four 744F in Emirates livery.

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Emirates.htm
 
tonymctigue
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:01 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:00 am

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 2):
Did EI's 747's fly to BOS at all?

They most certainly did! My love of aviation comes from flying EI B747s from SNN to BOS. They were an impressive sight and most certainly are sorely missed. As much as they were loved, I will be the first to admity they were too much aircraft for EI definitely at the time they had them. That said, it is easy to judge a decision made in the 1960s based on 21st centuary economics. Fuel was cheap and government owned flag carriers like EI were seen as mobile advertising for the country whom they served and it was very much a case of everyone had to have the biggest and the best and in that time, the B747 was without a doubt the biggest and the best.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
tymnbalewne
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:06 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:40 am

Anyone remember the dramatic opening scenes of "White Nights"? (with Mikhail Baryshnikov and Gregory Hines)

Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
factsonly
Posts: 2011
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:58 am

In 1974 EI leased one of their B747 to East African Airways for a one weekly rotation LHR-FRA-NBO-FRA-LHR during the peak holiday winter season.

My first B747 flight was on the second operation on 20 December 1974 routing LHR-FRA-NBO.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ae...ways_Boeing_747-100_Fitzgerald.jpg
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 7458
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:12 am

Luxair had 747SP, Air New Zealand, Air Pacific the 742.All of which are tiny populations like Ireland or smaller.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Jalap
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:20 am

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 5):
More a case of prestige, like most airlines in that era.

That is often the answer, but wasn't the 747 also the most efficient long haul plane at the time? How did the seat per mile cost compare to the DC10 and L1011? Several airlines, like EI, operated their 'prestige' planes for decades, so surely they played a usefull role with those airlines.

Surely prestige played a role too but then again, prestige probably sold seats in those days. While nowadays the aviation industry has little to do with prestige....
 
winstonlegthigh
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:15 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:17 am

Quoting Jalap (Reply 17):
That is often the answer, but wasn't the 747 also the most efficient long haul plane at the time? How did the seat per mile cost compare to the DC10 and L1011? Several airlines, like EI, operated their 'prestige' planes for decades, so surely they played a usefull role with those airlines.

Surely prestige played a role too but then again, prestige probably sold seats in those days. While nowadays the aviation industry has little to do with prestige....

Ain't that the truth... Often times, it seems that this is overlooked.
Never has gravity been so uplifting.
 
dergay
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:42 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:40 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
The A330 basically saved Aer Lingus in my opinion!

Don't forget the fact that Aer Lingus also operated a brace of Boeing 767s prior (methinks) to the introduction of the A-330.
Flown on A300,A310,A318,A319,A320,A321,A330,B707,B720,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,L382,L1011,C5,DC-3,DC8,
 
thijs1984
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:41 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 16):
Luxair had 747SP, Air New Zealand, Air Pacific the 742.All of which are tiny populations like Ireland or smaller.

In case of Luxair. the Cathment area of Luxembourg airport is much bigger than luxembourg itself.

And in case of air Pacific, it's the only good connection to the outside world. Unlike ireland which has very good short haul flight options to many big cities and many ferry connections.
 
airbazar
Posts: 6879
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 2):
But, have no fear, they weren't the only ones. History is littered with others who did the same...TP comes to mind with their 747-200's.

Not true. When TP ordered the 747 in 1970, they were very much needed. Unlike EI, TP actually flew their 747's and they needed the capacity and the cargo uplift because the 707's just weren't enough. The colonies generated a huge amount of traffic. The problem came later following the revolution in 1975 when Portugal lost its colonies.
 
georgiaame
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:55 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:52 pm

One of my first post college trips to Europe as a working (semi-) adult, was on EI 747 service, JFK-SHA-DUB, return via SHA (still qualifying for the $199 rt. youth fare offered). Granted it was a few years ago, but both flights were fully booked. Perhaps they were the only EI 747 flights that were, Had a lovely introduction to Irish butter on board. There was a woman behind me flying back home with her 8, yes 8, very young children. Perhaps if there were more like her flying, EI would still be in need of 747s today.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
jfk777
Posts: 5841
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:09 pm

Whatever reason EI got Jumbos they were inefficiently run with the FORCED Shannon stopover. The runway in Dublin was arbitrarily short to prevent Jumbos from taking off on Trans Atlantic flights. Eventually the Irish Government saw the light and stopped the SNN stopover. DUB to SNN was the shortest scheduled flight by a 747.
 
trex8
Posts: 4606
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:14 pm

Flew the one leased to Air Siam at least twice in the 70s.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18997
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting ei737ng (Thread starter):
Just wondering why EI purchased the 747 considering Ireland's population size how did the fleet planners ever hope to fill them? A case of fleet misplanners?

You could ask the same question about many other early 747 operators. They all thought they needed at least a couple of 747s for competitive reasons, whether it made any sense or not. In most cases it did not.
 
User avatar
IrishTexan
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:24 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:08 pm

Can recall EI 747's going out on other relatively short leases not mentioned above - Air Jamaica (Kingston and Montego Bay from LHR), Qantas (LHR-SYD) and also remember seeing an EI 747 leaving DUB carrying an extra engine at the start of a lease to Air Algerie.
Best memory on an EI 747 was sitting at a window seat and landing at SNN in a strong crosswind. Crabbing towards the airfield and having a clear view of the runway until just before touchdown. Was hugely impressed then and on several subsequent trips with varying levels of crosswind.
 
airbazar
Posts: 6879
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:11 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 5):
More a case of prestige, like most airlines in that era.

I don't think the majority of the early 747 operators bought them for prestige. I think a far greater number bought it for the range. Back then the only thing that could do long haul was the 707 and DC-8 and those had range limitations. Ragulation kept fares high and oil was also cheap right until the oil crisis of 1973. So the 747 made a lot of sense for a lot of airlines.
 
CF-CPI
Posts: 1315
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2000 12:54 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
Here's a nice little video, narrated by the airline's senior 747 captain of the time, the late Aidan Quigley:

Great vid. All that green in the cabin leaves us in no doubt as to this 747's origins. The load was not extremely high, based on the empty seats back in economy. Typical of the era, people could spread out. Of course, it did look like off-season.

The First Class cabin seems to be limited to the A zone in the nose - that would make about 24 pax. Many other carriers extended F back into B zone.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18997
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):
Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 5):
More a case of prestige, like most airlines in that era.

I don't think the majority of the early 747 operators bought them for prestige. I think a far greater number bought it for the range.

That may be true for a few but by far the majority of early production 747-100s operated routes well within 707 and DC-8 range. That was certainly true for AA/UA/CO/DL/EI and many other early 747 customers.
 
musang
Posts: 788
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 4:11 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):

Runway expansion was specifically prevented at DUB to prevent long haul ops?

Thanks - regards - musang
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18997
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 28):
The First Class cabin seems to be limited to the A zone in the nose - that would make about 24 pax. Many other carriers extended F back into B zone.

For example, AA's 747-100s had 66 F class seats, 26 in the A zone in the nose and 40 in the B zone.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
Like most things at the time you will discover that the 747 purchase was driven by politics and vanity. It was not an aircraft EI needed nor could they ever operate it efficiently.

True, but prior to the first oil shock, the 747 was seen as the "natural" replacement for the 707 and DC-8 as traffic was growing strongly.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
Joking apart, the 747 did serve EI quite well; ok, at the outset, everyone got them because it was the optimism of the 1960s and fuel was cheap.
Quoting type-rated (Reply 8):
In 1970 it was very much a prestige thing to have the 747 in your fleet.

Exactly. Many carriers ordered an initial 2 747's to get the aircraft into their fleets. Not just EI, but also Sabena, National, Swissair, EL AL, SAS, TAP, Olympic.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
kaitak
Posts: 8951
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:10 pm

Quoting musang (Reply 30):
Runway expansion was specifically prevented at DUB to prevent long haul ops?

This was long suspected, but there isn't a lot of evidence to back it up. When the old (pre 1989) runways were in operation, they certainly couldn't have permitted a nonstop 747 (or 707) service to the US, but it's kind of a chicken and egg situation, in the sense that the runways (which long pre-dated the jet age, although they were extended to a limited extent) were not extended because there was no business case to do so, because govt restrictions at the time did not allow westbound expansion and there was no eastbound long hauls either.

They did build a new runway, the current 10/28, which was opened in 1989. This was 8,650' long and although it probably should have been longer, it did allow nonstops by 747, which began in about 1993-94, about a year or so before the A330s came in.

Although I was a strong advocate of the abolition of the stopover policy, I have to confess that I did miss them; in the innocent, pre-9/11 days, you could almost always bag a jump seat on the DUB-SNN route. I recall travelling with my then 10 year old godson and both he and I got the jump seat for a VERY bad weather landing on 06 at SNN; I'll never forget the look on his face as he saw the runway lights just appear through the cloud on the final approach. Priceless memories (although that was an A330, now that I think of it!)

[Edited 2012-12-25 11:13:32]
 
XXXX10
Posts: 702
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2000 7:10 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:04 pm

The 747s wold often be used to LHR, normallly if there where Irish fans travelling over for a rugby match or at Christmas,
IIRC this was the case until the late 80s
 
EIDL
Posts: 786
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:11 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:53 pm

There's an element of pride and image to the purchase - its quite likely that EI would have bought anything with Boeing's name on it at that time. They ordered 2707s/SSTs for instance.

(actually that might have applied to the government in general - the now gone state-owned ferry firm bought a Boeing jetfoil!)
 
scarebus03
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:14 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:53 pm

I remember the EI 747's being used for MGP on most Tuesdays. I vaguely remember that the EI B741s had some of the highest recorded cycles when they were removed from service with EI. I have many happy memories of getting the jump seat DUB-BOS-DUB.

As to why they were purchased? They were the only real step up from the 707 as there was really nothing in between with the same range available as a TATL jet at the time. The possibility of carrying extra cargo was probably another factor although from memory the EI birds were brutally underpowered and had limited payload.

Brgds
No faults found......................
 
tonystan
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:22 pm

Surprised no one has mentioned "Paddy Zulu" yet which was the B747 that went to BA (or was it BOAC) for a season!!!!!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
scarebus03
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:14 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 37):

It was -ASJ and I believe it was BA and BCAL however in what order I'm not sure
No faults found......................
 
jfk777
Posts: 5841
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:01 pm

Quoting irishtexan (Reply 26):
Can recall EI 747's going out on other relatively short leases not mentioned above - Air Jamaica (Kingston and Montego Bay from LHR), Qantas (LHR-SYD) and also remember seeing an EI 747 leaving DUB carrying an extra engine at the start of a lease to Air Algerie.

EI leased its 747 many times because they had a huge summer season but low winter demand to JFK and BOS.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:42 am

G-BDPZ was dedicated to the LHR-ORD route and operated out of LHR Terminal 1. Not sure if EI performed line maintenance on it at LHR.

The SNN stopover rule- yes, annoying as it was at the time, but it also helped EI- it kept many US carriers out of DUB.

Yes the 747 was way too big for EI. And remember EI was the first airline to operate them in 3-4-3 configuration.
In the 70's and early 80's, EI & SN were regarded as the basket case European airlines by US travel agents- outside of peak season these flight were never close to full.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:38 am

Beyond prestige, the 747 offered significant range improvements over existing aircraft - and at a size that significantly reduced seat costs.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
airbazar
Posts: 6879
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:58 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
That may be true for a few but by far the majority of early production 747-100s operated routes well within 707 and DC-8 range. That was certainly true for AA/UA/CO/DL/EI and many other early 747 customers.

But with only 130 seats or so they were ridiculously expensive to fly when compared to the 747, and couldn't carry nearly the amount of cargo. Also, back then frequency was not yet king so it was perfectly acceptable to consolidate flights. But I find it ironic that you lump UA in with EI  
Quoting scarebus03 (Reply 36):
As to why they were purchased? They were the only real step up from the 707 as there was really nothing in between with the same range available as a TATL jet at the time. The possibility of carrying extra cargo was probably another factor although from memory the EI birds were brutally underpowered and had limited payload.

Exactly, it was the next step up not just in size and range, but especially in efficiency. EI to this day could still fill a 747 to BOS and JFK, seasonally, but in this day and age it's just not feasible to own and operate such a small, rigid fleet. The smaller twins offer much greater flexibility for similar cost whereas back in the 60's and 70's flexibility and frequency were not yet established business practices.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 32):
Exactly. Many carriers ordered an initial 2 747's to get the aircraft into their fleets. Not just EI, but also Sabena, National, Swissair, EL AL, SAS, TAP, Olympic.

i think that of those only National was an original 747-100 customer. The others ordered the later 200 model, which tells me that they took some time to think about the viability of the 747. Many of these carriers only had a couple of routes with demand for a 747. That is still true today except current day economics make it impossible to justify such a tiny fleet.
 
User avatar
shamrock604
Posts: 2088
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:27 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:17 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 42):
Exactly, it was the next step up not just in size and range, but especially in efficiency. EI to this day could still fill a 747 to BOS and JFK, seasonally, but in this day and age it's just not feasible to own and operate such a small, rigid fleet.

EI would have no problem filling a couple of 747's year round - JFK is double daily through the year now, with BOS double daily from DUB on many days, with further flights from SNN. ORD will also go twice daily most days from DUB at the start of S13. EI is recording very strong load factors as it slowly builds DUB into a hub operation for TATL flights.

However, for 747 operations, they would probably need to sacrifice frequency, and probably offer a single daily service on many of those routes.

That doesnt sit well with the market which prefers greater options, and so the 330, and added frequency, is the right choice for EI.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18997
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:06 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 42):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
That may be true for a few but by far the majority of early production 747-100s operated routes well within 707 and DC-8 range. That was certainly true for AA/UA/CO/DL/EI and many other early 747 customers.

But with only 130 seats or so they were ridiculously expensive to fly when compared to the 747

You're overlooking the DC-8-61 and -63 which usually operated with around 200 seats in a 2-class configuration, and up to 250 in a high-density all-Y configuration.

If you're sayiing that on a route with demand for only 130 seats, it was more cost effective to fly a 747 with only 130 passengers and 250 or so empty seats, I would disagree. Unfortunately for many carriers, that's exactly what happened on many 747 routes during the early years of service.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:27 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 42):
i think that of those only National was an original 747-100 customer. The others ordered the later 200 model, which tells me that they took some time to think about the viability of the 747.

The 742 was on offer before the 741 entered service. Indeed, the initial 742's entered service in late 1970, months after the initial 741. All the aforementioned carriers ordered their 2 (each) 741 or 742 aircraft before the 747 entered service.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18997
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:42 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 45):
Indeed, the initial 742's entered service in late 1970, months after the initial 741

Not quite. The first 742s were delivered to KLM and Swissair in January 1971, a full year after the 741 went into service..
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:48 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 45):
Indeed, the initial 742's entered service in late 1970, months after the initial 741

Not quite. The first 742s were delivered to KLM and Swissair in January 1971, a full year after the 741 went into service..

But still ordered before the 741 service entry, proving my point that many carriers ordered (token) 2 747's, not just EI.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18997
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:38 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 47):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 45):
Indeed, the initial 742's entered service in late 1970, months after the initial 741

Not quite. The first 742s were delivered to KLM and Swissair in January 1971, a full year after the 741 went into service..

But still ordered before the 741 service entry, proving my point that many carriers ordered (token) 2 747's, not just EI.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make re the 742 vs 741. Many carriers that bought small numbers of early 747s bought the 741 (including EI), not the 742. Yes, some carriers preferred to wait for the more capable 742, but far from all.

Some original customers for small numbers of 741s:

Aer Lingus - 2
Alitalia - 2
Braniff - 1 (2 ordered, one not taken up and was delivered to Wardair)
Continental - 4
Delta - 5
Eastern - 4
Iberia - 2
Lufthansa - 3
National - 2
Sabena - 2
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:26 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 48):
I don't understand what point you are trying to make re the 742 vs 741. Many carriers that bought small numbers of early 747s bought the 741 (including EI), not the 742.

Someone early in the thread said that only EI would buy (just) 2 747's for prestige. I was pointing out that it was common.

Don't forget AC's initial order for 3x 741.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.