93Sierra
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Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:45 pm

Why is there a seemingly worldwide demand or ATR 42/72 products worldwide there see s to be o inroads o the N A market. Many thanks and happy New Years and merry Christmas
 
EMBQA
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:49 pm

Because you're talking 20 year old technology. At one time American Eagle and ASA had a very large combined fleet. It's very simple, their time has passed...
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:55 pm

From what I've gleaned from previous discussions on here, the average stage length for regional prop routes in North America is considerably longer than in most other regions of the world. With a longer stage length, scheduling and economics favour faster props like the Dash-8, or regional jets, which of course have been quite prevalent for the last 15 years or so in North america.

I'm guessing that BBD may also be able to offer slightly better support to North American Carriers as well, due to its location. But that particular theory is speculative.

JL

P.S. By the way, ATR fans can always point to the exception of First Air, who operate the ATR in unthinkably hostile conditions along long routes in the Canadian arctic! Obviously they find it capable enough, and speed is perhaps less of a factor on their network, which is highly subsidized and monopolized on several routes.
Next flight.... who knows.
 
93Sierra
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:55 pm

What's the backlog for Atr's to Q400s?
 
BMI727
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Because you're talking 20 year old technology.

They've been updated over the years.

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 2):
From what I've gleaned from previous discussions on here, the average stage length for regional prop routes in North America is considerably longer than in most other regions of the world.

Basically. Distances here are longer and as such North American airlines went whole hog into regional jets. The Q400 has found a niche, although I think that in many ways it combines the worst of jets (cost) and props (lack of speed, noise, "old" image).

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 2):
P.S. By the way, ATR fans can always point to the exception of First Air, who operate the ATR in unthinkably hostile conditions along long routes in the Canadian arctic!

The ATR is a very capable plane, although that did not keep American Eagle from moving them south after the crash in Indiana due to icing.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
rfields5421
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:09 pm

There is nothing wrong with the ATR for a cold weather ops aircraft. It is quite successful in several areas in ice and snow weather.

However, the ATR crash in Indiana and the reaction of American and Delta to move their aircraft south pretty much sealed the aircraft fate in the US.

But you cannot discount the impact the regional jet had on the ATR market penetration.

In the US, the regional prop competed head to head with the regional jet for many of the same routes.

Jets win such battles among customers when the price of a flight on both the turboprop and the jet are the same.

You can argue all you want about economics, but passengers preference for jets is clear.
 
93Sierra
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:17 pm

True but the plane that crashed and one today are like night and day with technological improvements, better ice protection, different and higher operating speeds in known icing a d better fuel burn due to the better engines than those in use 15 years ago

Yes the difference in distance is great in parts of the us but back east out of " hubs " of clt, iAd? Pit, Mia, etc the distance is irevlavant.

Last note, I've only seen dash 8 variants over the years at DEN why hasn't the ATR been utilized out west? Also AE has the ATr and Saab combo going on in the past yet it seemed they never really utilized them at lax
 
cargolex
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Because you're talking 20 year old technology. At one time American Eagle and ASA had a very large combined fleet. It's very simple, their time has passed...

I don't know that you can really say that. The ATR's have been gradually improved over the years just like the Dash-8. I think the difference is that customers who were fond of the ATR chose regional jets as replacements, while other carriers chose the Dash-8 or started early with them (Horizon, Piedmont - both Dash-8 customers since the mid-1980s). Remember that aside from the former Colgan, Horizon, and Piedmont, Republic, American Eagle, and Commutair, there aren't many American carriers with large fleets of props anyway.

Stages in the U.S. are long, and many passengers prefer a jet to a prop (though, IMO, many would be hard pressed to tell you exactly why), so it's little surprise that those who are serving these customers in the U.S. migrated to RJ's or have reliable, long-standing prop operations with very defined networks.

I think the lack of success the ATR has had in north America has more to do with the success of the CRJ, ERJ, and E-jets than the ATR itself.
 
koruman
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:24 pm

Here in Australia, with similar distances, Virgin has dumped its E-jets in favour of the ATR-72.

For reasons of simple economics.
 
93Sierra
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:28 pm

Although not a large difference, island air has chosen o go ATR vs the Q FWIW
 
93Sierra
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:53 pm

Question... Does deltas new pilot agreement that capped the number of seats and size of its regional art ears address the turboprop arena at all ?
 
rfields5421
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 6):
but the plane that crashed and one today are like night and day

Show me the physical differences for the average passenger to see and understand it is a completely different aircraft.

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 6):
I've only seen dash 8 variants over the years at DEN why hasn't the ATR been utilized out west?

ATR didn't provide the financial incentives which Bombardier provided.

Throughout the west the Dash-8 has been part of the Horizon fleet for a long, long time.

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 6):
Also AE has the ATr and Saab combo going on in the past yet it seemed they never really utilized them at lax

For most of the time the ATR fleet was flown by Executive Airlines for American Eagle. It was a complicated scope clause decision which did not make financial sense to try and use the ATR extensively except in a couple places. American Eagle let their prop fleet get horribly outdated and worn out.

I still believe any prop aircraft is going to have a very difficult time penetrating the US market. They have to be used on routes with either no jet competition, or the turboprop ticket prices are substantially lower than the same route on a jet.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:56 am

There is VW (Aeromar) hubbed at MEX's T2. Its fleet includes mostly ATR-42s and a few CRJ-200LRs; the former are the backbone.
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atct
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:58 am

Empire Airlines operates 10 ATR's (2-3 depending on the time based at ANC)
Mountain Air Cargo operates 19 ATR's
First Air operates 11
Cape Air operates 2 (not really NA but a US territory)
Morningstar Air Express (Canada) operates 1
Calm Air operates 8
Island Air has 1 and 7 on order
AeroMar operates 14.


Eagle (in the process), Delta Connection (ASA), and Northern Air Cargo ditched theirs.

There are a few in operation in NA just not alot compared to every other regional aircraft. In regards to icing, I work Empire Airlines (ATR 42 and 72) and they will not fly into FZDZ or FZRA conditions. Not sure if its the company op-spec's or aircraft limitation but I have had to place them into holding above the weather a few times while they wait for it to clear, or beat feet to their alternate.

atct
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N62NA
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:13 am

Continental flew many ATRs - but we're going back to the 80s/90s.
 
FI642
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:55 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 5):
However, the ATR crash in Indiana and the reaction of American and Delta to move their aircraft south pretty much sealed the aircraft fate in the US.

My sentiments exactly. They were removed from service as soon as they could be. Even after the issue was addressed, U.S. carriers avoided using the plane.
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gigneil
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:09 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 12):
Show me the physical differences for the average passenger to see and understand it is a completely different aircraft.

Who cares? The average passenger doesn't know what a plane is.

The interiors of a new ATR-72 and a new Q400 are nearly identical.


NS
 
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JBo
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:29 am

Despite all of the technological improvements made to the ATR family over the past 19 years and the economic advantage of the turboprop over the regional jet, the biggest reason the ATR is not more common in the U.S. is more than likely the American Eagle crash in 1994.

That was the crash that cemented the public perception that turboprops are unsafe and unreliable and fueled the regional jet boom in the U.S. I think there is still a lot of negative perception towards the ATR even today and that is a likely reason why the aircraft is not more popular.

I also think another reason is configuration; the ATR traditionally has the passenger boarding door at the rear of the aircraft. This makes it difficult for the aircraft to use jetways (has to be parked a certain way and only certain bridges are maneuverable enough to mate to the aircraft) whereas all regional jets and most other turboprops have the pax boarding door in the front where the jetway can be easily mated to the aircraft. While the ATR can be ordered with a front boarding door, this configuraiton isn't very common.
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rfields5421
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:42 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 17):
The average passenger doesn't know what a plane is.

No they don't.

But a significant portion of the US passenger population thinks a high wing prop plane is likely to fall out of the sky if the weather is bad.

That crash was almost 20 years ago - but to much of the flying public over 35 or 40 - they remember just a few facts about the crash - mainly high wing, props and falling out of the sky.

My brother-in-law who barely knows a jet from a prop won't fly to his daughter's home in Charlottesville VA - because they use those 'death trap props'. He thinks the Piedmont/ US Airways Express Dash-8s are the same planes as the ATR. He will only fly Delta because they use only jets into CHO.

Last time I was in Seattle, sitting at the food court in the center of the terminal - I overheard at least a half-dozen conversations about why the airlines still fly those horrible props - two mentioned the AE ATR crash. All while looking at Horizon Q-400s.

Perception is important - more important than reality when it comes to marketing.
 
COSPN
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:54 am

2 words

Roselawn, Indiana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Eagle_Flight_4184

Most Americans think anything with props are from a Government surplus Auction after WW2

[Edited 2012-12-24 22:58:15]
 
BMI727
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:01 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 19):
But a significant portion of the US passenger population thinks a high wing prop plane is likely to fall out of the sky if the weather is bad

I'm not sure about that. I'm not sure the public has much recollection of that accident anymore. It just wasn't the same magnitude as Pan Am 103 or TWA 800 for example. It was a big deal at the time, but I doubt that it would stop anyone from operating ATRs successfully today. I believe now the problem lies more in the image that propeller planes are old, slow, and noisy than the Roselawn crash.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
multimark
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:07 am

Are Americans really as scarred by the Eagle crash as a-netters think? After all, travellers in the Pacific NW have been happily flying Horizon for years.
 
wdleiser
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:07 am

While many are talking about the 94 crash in Indiana I personally believe the fact that the ATR is slower than the Q400 and that the United States has a much lower population density vs much of world to be the major contributing factors to the lack of the ATR in the United States.

If there was an ATR that could fly close to the same speed as an ERJ while keeping the economics of a prop, it would be a killer AC here in the states. On short flights, the top speed of an aircraft really has no factor... I am thinking IAH-DAL/DFW for example. I use to fly that a lot and the flight time on the Q400 vs ERJ vs 737 was the same.

When you start flying IAH-BNA though, the flight time on an ATR becomes significantly longer than that of a flight on an ERJ. The ATR is a perfect AC for the North East and California where the population density is far greater vs the South and Midwest United States.
 
BMI727
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:17 am

Quoting multimark (Reply 22):
Are Americans really as scarred by the Eagle crash as a-netters think?

I tend to think not. I would characterize the crash as having a significant role in why ATRs in service, particularly American Eagle at ORD, have largely left. However, I doubt that the accident is high on the list of reasons why ATR is not making many sales here now.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
thegoldenargosy
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:06 am

I find it interesting AE pulled their ATR's from ORD. While down in STL TWE (AX) was still flying ATR's.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:49 am

The question shouldn't be why so few ATRs but why so few turboprops. Q400s really haven't made much of an inroad either with only 2 airlines operating them. Despite the good economics, The answer can be in something called. game Theory. At least as far as the USA goes. I don't think pax are as turboprop avoident as USA airline think they are. Canada, Australia and Europe show they aren't.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:16 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 19):
Last time I was in Seattle, sitting at the food court in the center of the terminal - I overheard at least a half-dozen conversations about why the airlines still fly those horrible props - two mentioned the AE ATR crash. All while looking at Horizon Q-400s

I hear this often times too, when flying QX, it is just a prop thing, heck I heard the same comments when flying QX in the early 80's in the days of SWM's and F27's. People have a misconception that props are all unsafe and rattle boxes, they rumble more than jets, and they are smaller so they bounce around more, flying at lower altitudes. Most people who fly regularly in and out of smaller airports are used to the props and tend to complain less, in my humble opinion.
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PW100
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:35 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 12):
Show me the physical differences for the average passenger to see and understand it is a completely different aircraft

Your average passenger would not see and understand the difference between an ATR72 and a Q400.
Nor the differences between an A320 and a 738, or an A330 and a 767 for that matter . . .

PW100
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timpdx
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:03 pm

I am now in Burma( where there was a crash landing today) In this part of the world I am quite happy to see a turboprop. Its known and proven technology, I would trust that the mechanics would know more about a prop than a jet. That said, I cant wait till my last ATR leg is done in this country and I am on SQ metal headed home.
 
yenne09
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:18 pm

Pascan (Montréal-St-Hubert) has two aircrafts at the moment but they are based in Quebec city.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Quoting cargolex (Reply 7):

Not in the eyes of the traveling public
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 2):
ATR fans can always point to the exception of First Air, who operate the ATR in unthinkably hostile conditions along long routes in the Canadian arctic! Obviously they find it capable enough, and speed is perhaps less of a factor on their network, which is highly subsidized and monopolized on several routes.

There are 27 ATRs currently registered in Canada, 23 -42s and 4 -72s. The largest operators are First Air with 9 -42s and 2 -72s, and YWG-based Calm Air with 6 -42s and 2 -72s. As already mentioned, they serve many very remote points, mostly with gravel runways.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 5):
Jets win such battles among customers when the price of a flight on both the turboprop and the jet are the same.

Concorde would win such battles easily too, the whole point is that the price should not be the same since the costs certainly aren't.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
93Sierra
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:57 pm

YV had old 200s flying out of PHX and some of Piedmonts 300s are very long in the tooth. In an era of risig fuel costs and sub par performance of the smaller CRJ ERJ ( economics wise ) why hasn't any other carrier attempted to use props. Horizon is a good example, why wouldnt Skywest ever give the Atr a shot or the Q a shot to stick with their Bombardier ties.

Firestone tires had issues. A decade later they are still selling tires.1994Roselawn can't be the driving factor for lack of aircaft.
 
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par13del
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:16 pm

I would say another major reason is scope and the fact that most regionals in the USA are not true independent carriers but creations of legacy carriers, their a/c are mandated by the contract signed with the mainline carrier.
Includes everything from pay rates for crew, lease rates for a/c, service, maintenance, and on and on it goes, so the savings that one may gain by operating a prop a/c versus a jet are lost, the flip side is that the additonal cost of operating jets are offset elsewhere with lower pay rates, service etc.

True regional carriers, a carrier with no aflliation to a mainline carrier offering service within one or two states are few and far between if any do exist in the USA.
 
q120
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 2):
P.S. By the way, ATR fans can always point to the exception of First Air, who operate the ATR in unthinkably hostile conditions along long routes in the Canadian arctic! Obviously they find it capable enough, and speed is perhaps less of a factor on their network, which is highly subsidized and monopolized on several routes.

No routes are subsidized and there is no monopoly in the north - it has been like this for a couple of years now.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
93Sierra
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:23 pm

And, remember the teething problems and bad rap the DC 10 had yet people continued to fly on them for decades.
 
IADCA
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 19):
My brother-in-law who barely knows a jet from a prop won't fly to his daughter's home in Charlottesville VA - because they use those 'death trap props'. He thinks the Piedmont/ US Airways Express Dash-8s are the same planes as the ATR. He will only fly Delta because they use only jets into CHO.

Your brother in law should probably also update his thinking about the airlines a bit, too. American flies E135s in and some of the US Express flights are CR2, as well. That said, the rest of your post is dead-on.

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 37):

And, remember the teething problems and bad rap the DC 10 had yet people continued to fly on them for decades.

Yeah, but the average flier couldn't look out on the ramp and tell a DC-10 from a 737, much less from an L1011. Those little spinnie thingies on the wings of a turboprop are a little harder to hide.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 34):
1994Roselawn can't be the driving factor for lack of aircaft.
Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 37):
remember the teething problems and bad rap the DC 10 had yet people continued to fly on them for decades.

You asked in the original post why the aircraft hasn't gained a strong presence in North America.

We have given you those reasons. You can argue why they should not have had such a negative impact on ATR sales/ usage in the US - but they are the reality. Again - preception is critical, even when it is not based on facts.

1994 Roselawn and the response of the major airlines stopped the ATR cold - dead - in the US. While the ATR gained market share around the world - the US remained for near two decades as an unbreakable market. Not just with the flying public. But also with airline management. An aircraft will not sell if airline management sees the aircraft as a liability and a major risk. No matter how untrue or irrational.

For the public, the Colgan Air Dash 8 at Buffalo also hurt the chances of the ATR and other turboprops. 1) Another example the high wing turboprop isn't safe in winter weather, and 2) More proof that only the worst quality pilots fly prop planes.

The regional jet growth also really hurt any change for the ATR to redeem its reputation.

The DC-10 was a major investement for the airlines. They had to make it work enough to recoup their investment, where the ATR was not such an investment by the airline and they were able to dump much of the public blame on the aircraft and not the aircrew or their training. But the US airlines dumped the DC-10 as quickly as the economically could replace the aircraft.

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 34):
why hasn't any other carrier attempted to use props.

Outside Horizon, the aircraft used by the US regionals are decided by the major airlines. If Skywest invests in dozens of ATR aircraft, they risk having a fleet sitting around which they cannot sell the aircraft to any major airline operation. As mentioned - the scope clauses of the majors have a lot of the small aircraft choices set and are extremely hard to change.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 38):
Your brother in law should probably also update his thinking about the airlines a bit, too.

From Little Rock to CHO AE isn't a contender for price. He won't fly any US routing because he's been booked on the CRJ, and had a Dash 8 substituted in the past.

We on this forum know a lot more about aviation than the general public. But they aren't as dumb as some assume. They don't know specifics, but they know generalities.

The flying public in the US does not like prop planes. Period.
They prefer to avoid small jets if possible.
And price is the overriding factor at all times.

Only when airlines price tickets to reflect the actual cheaper operation of a turbo prop over an RJ will more and more of the public be exposed to quality turboprop aircraft.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 27):
Most people who fly regularly in and out of smaller airports are used to the props and tend to complain less, in my humble opinion.

Familarity with quality turbo props helps overcome the negative stereo typing. Not completely, but it does help.
 
93Sierra
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:57 pm

Thanks for the replies.

Is there data available see what the revenue was generated on flights where a carrier flew both props and rjs on the same route under the same express/connection banner?
 
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teme82
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:55 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 18):
While the ATR can be ordered with a front boarding door, this configuraiton isn't very common.

I think that AY was the only one that has ever ordered ATR's with that configuration. And the planes went to KarAir.
Flying high and low
 
maxpower1954
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:33 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 39):
But the US airlines dumped the DC-10 as quickly as the economically could replace the aircraft.

Apparently "as quickly the economically could replace the aircraft" was over 30 years for UA, 35 years for NW and 29 years for AA. I wouldn't call that dumping the DC-10 quickly.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:52 am

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 42):
I wouldn't call that dumping the DC-10 quickly.

How many more aircraft did those airlines order after 1980?

Those three airlines invested heavily in the DC-10 - AA - 66 airframes; UA - 50 airframes, NW - 46 airframes - a total of 162 of the entire production run of 386 - or 42% of the DC-10s ever made.

AA alone spent or committed close to 3 billion dollars on the DC-10 before the Chicago crash.

UA over 2 billion, NW close to 2 billion.

It takes a while to amortize the investment and to dispose of the aircraft.

[Edited 2012-12-25 19:55:42]
 
ghYHZ
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 33):
There are 27 ATRs currently registered in Canada, 23 -42s and 4 -72s. The largest operators are First Air with 9 -42s and 2 -72s, and YWG-based Calm Air with 6 -42s and 2 -72s. As already mentioned, they serve many very remote points, mostly with gravel runways.

Though not registered in Canada......Air St Pierre flies scheduled ATR flights between “France” and Halifax, St. Johns, Sydney and also to Montreal.

The winter weather in the Atlantic Provinces can be pretty hostile at times!
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:38 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Because you're talking 20 year old technology.

20 year old technology that has been continuously updated, is incredibly rugged and an economic juggernaut.

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 2):

From what I've gleaned from previous discussions on here, the average stage length for regional prop routes in North America is considerably longer than in most other regions of the world

Stage length is a big issue. This is why a Brasilia is nicer to fly on than a SAAB 340. That the ATR is slow hurts it.

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 2):
I'm guessing that BBD may also be able to offer slightly better support to North American Carriers as well, due to its location. But that particular theory is speculative.

That is purely speculative and not true. Any large aircraft maker can support anywhere in the world.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
The ATR is a very capable plane, although that did not keep American Eagle from moving them south after the crash in Indiana due to icing.

They did move them because of a fear of icing, but First Air's planes are certainly not falling out of the sky.

The main reason Eagle moved the ATRs out of ORD is because American wanted to say they were "all-jet" at ORD, and because the ATR is slow enough to really gum up the works at O'Hare.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
The Q400 has found a niche, although I think that in many ways it combines the worst of jets (cost) and props (lack of speed, noise, "old" image).

Um, what?

1) The Q400 has amazingly low costs. Might not be quite as efficient as the ATR, but it is very, very thrifty compared to an RJ.

2) On routes up to 500-600 nm, the Q400 is as fast as a fan/turbojet. They also have advanced noise canceling.

3) The added advantage is that the Q400 can shoot much faster approaches and not screw things up for the mainline aircraft.

Quoting koruman (Reply 8):
Here in Australia, with similar distances, Virgin has dumped its E-jets in favour of the ATR-72.

For reasons of simple economics.

Lower density and competition as well.

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 9):

Although not a large difference, island air has chosen o go ATR vs the Q FWIW

Which makes total sense on the microscopically short sectors flown in Hawaii. They save gas and get one of the most rugged aircraft around for one of the most demanding schedules.

Quoting multimark (Reply 22):
Are Americans really as scarred by the Eagle crash as a-netters think?

You'd be surprised, though its not just the Eagle crash. Its the overall mentality toward "puddle jumpers"
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Beeski
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 39):

Great reply rfields.
1994 Roselawn was blamed on the ATR, rightly or wrongly.
Having flown many American Eagle ATR flights out of San Juan....I go out of my way to avoid them. They are loud, uncomfortable, and slow. Regional Jets are a major upgrade.
 
IADCA
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 39):
From Little Rock to CHO AE isn't a contender for price. He won't fly any US routing because he's been booked on the CRJ, and had a Dash 8 substituted in the past.

We on this forum know a lot more about aviation than the general public. But they aren't as dumb as some assume. They don't know specifics, but they know generalities.

The flying public in the US does not like prop planes. Period.
They prefer to avoid small jets if possible.
And price is the overriding factor at all times.

Only when airlines price tickets to reflect the actual cheaper operation of a turbo prop over an RJ will more and more of the public be exposed to quality turboprop aircraft.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that your relative is dumb, just that there are more options from CHO than there were just a few years ago. That's pretty unfortunate that he got a DH8 subbed for a CRJ, for exactly the reason you note, that the public doesn't like props, period. I wonder if or how much carriers take this into account when making aircraft swaps.

As for the last part of your post, it's a good idea, but it merely reflects the eternal struggle of producer versus consumer surpluses. One of the reasons the airline industry has such difficult customer relations is the perception that they're consistently passing on increased costs to customers and never rebating savings. I don't think that it's a correct impression, but it is there. (I also think airlines might be hesitant to discount for props because they'd see that as admitting that they're an inferior product. It's a perception gap: airlines see the product as equal to an RJ, so they price the same, while consumers perceive an inferior product and want a discount. With none forthcoming, they book away when they are aware of the issue.)
 
BMI727
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 45):
1) The Q400 has amazingly low costs.

Check the price tag.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 45):
2) On routes up to 500-600 nm, the Q400 is as fast as a fan/turbojet.

There are many regional jet routes well in excess of that.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 39):
the high wing turboprop isn't safe in winter weather

Tell that to the over 20 operators of close to 200 Dash 8s in Canada (about 14 airlines and 7 or 8 corporate and government operators). Most of those aircraft operate in extreme winter conditions for months every year.

Dash 8s also operate reliably with carriers in Greenland and northern Norway where severe winter conditions are common.

And, as already mentioned, 27 ATRs operate in some of Canada's most extreme winter conditions without problems.

Also shouldn't overlook the dozens of DHC-6 Twin Otters, another high wing turboprop that's been operating reliably in extreme winter weather for almost half a century. Roughly 115 DHC-6s currently registered in Canada.
 
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Polot
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RE: Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America

Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:53 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 49):
Tell that to the over 20 operators of close to 200 Dash 8s in Canada (about 14 airlines and 7 or 8 corporate and government operators). Most of those aircraft operate in extreme winter conditions for months every year.

He is not saying that high wing turboprops are unsafe in winter weather, he is saying that there is a perception that high wing turboprops are unsafe in winter weather by the American public.