rsmith6621a
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:21 am

Yesterday EIA parked all of its 747-200, that is 3 of them, there is still one parked at JFK in a non flyable condition.

Citing high operational cost and the Dept of Defense now no longer accepting 200 on any of their bases it was time to to retire them.

Critical financial issues at EIA also led to the decision to park them'

Sent to KPSM were N471EV, N482EV, N486EV. N485EV is at JFK and has been used as a spare parts plane for several months.

Now they have just three active 400's 491,492,493. They also have N479BA in Marana which was suppose to be flying 2 weeks ago.
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KC135Hydraulics
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:24 am

Why is the DoD no longer accepting the -200 on their bases? Is there some sort of safety concern?
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rsmith6621a
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:30 am

KC.... High fuel cost. They were the one paying for the fuel. Other cargo company's that flew 200 for the DoD also had to stop.
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airtran737
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:19 am

Things aren't looking too good at Evergreen. They have been late with pilot payroll the last four pay periods and are not relying on AMC to keep them alive. Their AMC team might not be too happy about sharing the cargo with them to keep them afloat.
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jcarv
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:31 am

Not for nothing but why would they not store their aircraft at the Evergreen facility at Marana?
 
FlyDeltaJets
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting jcarv (Reply 4):
Not for nothing but why would they not store their aircraft at the Evergreen facility at Marana?

Evergreen has a decent sized base at JFK.
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Spacepope
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 2):

KC.... High fuel cost. They were the one paying for the fuel. Other cargo company's that flew 200 for the DoD also had to stop.

That's strange. Kalitta has a -200 en route to Lajes AFB right now.
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FI642
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:53 am

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 6):

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 2):

KC.... High fuel cost. They were the one paying for the fuel. Other cargo company's that flew 200 for the DoD also had to stop.

That's strange. Kalitta has a -200 en route to Lajes AFB right now.

There are exemptions for certain types of missions. If there is no other lift available, or and equipment substitution (where the carrier picks up the tab for the extra fuel burn), AMC will issue a waiver.
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wjcandee
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:28 am

Evergreen got some final missions for them last week with UPS.
 
wjcandee
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:30 am

Actually, DOD doesn't pay for fuel. It pays per ton-mile for cargo based on aircraft type (with a broad brush). It factors into the rate a number of factors, such as labor, capital cost, and, certainly, fuel. It may be that all aircraft in the category with the 742 are persona non grata. And it's not that they aren't welcome on the base. It's that they are not used for missions.

AMC pays a fuel adjustment based on the price of fuel, having calculated its rate based on the expected price of fuel.

[Edited 2012-12-24 21:31:23]
 
wjcandee
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:44 am

Oh, and in terms of "not allowing the 747-200 on its bases", I would just have to point out that, um, the VC-25 is a 747-200 supported by the AMC.

I'm pretty sure it's allowed to land at Air Force bases.
 
aaway
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:11 am

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 3):
Things aren't looking too good at Evergreen. They have been late with pilot payroll the last four pay periods and are not relying on AMC to keep them alive. Their AMC team might not be too happy about sharing the cargo with them to keep them afloat.

Slightly off topic response - Appears the enterprise is succumbing to financial malaise. The ground handling division - E.A.G.L.E.- also has had several payroll issues over the past six months. The helicopter division has been dangled as a salve but, unfortunately, no takers thus far.
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bottie
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:00 am

Quoting jcarv (Reply 4):

Evergreen sold their maintainance center at MZJ about 2 years ago
 
FlyDeltaJets
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:04 am

Quoting aaway (Reply 11):
The ground handling division - E.A.G.L.E.- also has had several payroll issues over the past six months.

I used to work for EAGLE and the had payroll issues constantly when I worked for them in JFK in 2004. The also quickly lost the BA contract too.
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RWA380
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:17 am

Oddly MMV has plenty of room for aircraft storage and many could be added to their aviation museum to draw even more visitors, other than the damp Oregon winters, why wouldn't EZ park someplace they own? Heck even the incredibly nice indoor water park built, owned and operated by Evergreen at MMV has a real 742 as the launch base for the waterslide all the way down.
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upcfordcruiser
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:24 pm

Wonder if this means they'll come get their 747-200 that's been 'abandoned' at the KIAH cargo ramp for some time now.
 
sunilgupta
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:29 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 10):
Oh, and in terms of "not allowing the 747-200 on its bases", I would just have to point out that, um, the VC-25 is a 747-200 supported by the AMC.

The VC-25 are special purpose military aircraft so cost is no object to begin with.

Second, they are the only -200s fitted with four GE CF-6-80 engines which are far more current and in widespread use as compared to the JT9D engines on the Evergreen 747-200s

Sunil
 
madviking
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:16 pm

Quoting sunilgupta (Reply 16):
Second, they are the only -200s fitted with four GE CF-6-80 engines which are far more current and in widespread use as compared to the JT9D engines on the Evergreen 747-200s

I saw the ship sitting at JFK last week. It is missing engine #1. Sad.
 
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treebeard787
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 8):
Evergreen got some final missions for them last week with UPS.

We got N486EV here at PHX almost every day up to the 22nd operating as extra lift for UPS, I knew they didn't have a lot of time left but I didn't think they would be retired that fast.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8075/8298577998_3f37dd92d1_c.jpg
Evergreen 747-200F N486EV by KoryC757, on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8221/8295331431_bde8ee4c2b_c.jpg
Evergreen 747-200F and Emriates Skycargo 747-400F at PHX, N486EV, N415MC by KoryC757, on Flickr
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flightsimer
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:15 pm

This is not the end of the the classics yet, nor Evergreen. The classics are indeed being drawn down domestically for the time being. However, there is a chance they will be sent overseas and will exclusively fly there, starting next year some time, for the government.

As for Evergreen's finances, they are in a pretty decent shape. They definitely won't be going anywhere anytime soon, especially since management was shuffled.

Next year they will introduce another 3-4 747-400BCFs as well which will in the long run replace the classics permanently.
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airtran737
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 19):

If they are in "pretty decent shape" then why have they missed numerous payroll dates for the pilots? The one on the first will be the 5th in a row if they miss it.
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KC135Hydraulics
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 20):
If they are in "pretty decent shape" then why have they missed numerous payroll dates for the pilots? The one on the first will be the 5th in a row if they miss it.

To me, when you don't have enough money to make payroll, your company is effectively dead.
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 19):

This is not the end of the the classics yet, nor Evergreen. The classics are indeed being drawn down domestically for the time being. However, there is a chance they will be sent overseas and will exclusively fly there, starting next year some time, for the government.

As for Evergreen's finances, they are in a pretty decent shape. They definitely won't be going anywhere anytime soon, especially since management was shuffled.

Next year they will introduce another 3-4 747-400BCFs as well which will in the long run replace the classics permanently.

In your dreams!

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 19):
If they are in "pretty decent shape" then why have they missed numerous payroll dates for the pilots? The one on the first will be the 5th in a row if they miss it.

  

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 21):
To me, when you don't have enough money to make payroll, your company is effectively dead.

  



Del Smith (evergreen founder and owner) is rumored to have had to tap in to his personal funds just to cover the operational costs for December.
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wjcandee
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:48 pm

Are you saying that they are 5 payrolls behind, or that they missed the date and later made a payment?

There's a difference between profitability and cash flow, particularly when you are being paid by Uncle Sam. You are not getting a check from the government at the end of the flight -- you're being paid down the line. Sometimes, you need operating cash to keep things rolling.

I'm pretty sure that this UPS work required a significant expenditure for fuel and personnel. And yet I'm sure UPS didn't give Evergreen a check on the 23rd.

Oddly enough, it's often in periods of high-profitability expansion that companies get in a cash crunch, because they have to pay today for things that they won't be paid for for 90-120 days.

Not saying that this is the case for Evergreen, but if Smith is tapping his personal funds, he's certainly expecting to be repaid.
 
wjcandee
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:51 pm

Speaking of which, I didn't see World doing any ad hoc work for UPS or FedEx this year. Are they near death, or did the downsizing help stabilize them?
 
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 14):
Heck even the incredibly nice indoor water park built, owned and operated by Evergreen at MMV has a real 742 as the launch base for the waterslide all the way down.

An ex-DL 747-200  
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TVNWZ
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 23):

A company the size of Evergreen would (should) have a sizable line of credit/revolving credit agreement(s) to make operating payroll and expenses. If they don't or are tapped out on them, that in itself, is a reason to believe the company is having financial issues. Payroll being late is a sure fire sign.
 
sxf24
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:52 am

Evergreen currently has the lowest rating from S&P and recent comments from the ratings agency does not sound very positve.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/06/idUSWNA898920121106
 
airtran737
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 24):
Speaking of which, I didn't see World doing any ad hoc work for UPS or FedEx this year. Are they near death, or did the downsizing help stabilize them?

World was slated to fly for UPS but had to back out due to being down an aircraft for a month and a half.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 23):
Are you saying that they are 5 payrolls behind, or that they missed the date and later made a payment?

The have been late, but made the payments. The payroll for the 14th wasn't going to come until the 24th from what has been said on other websites.
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Flighty
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:53 am

For the longest time I thought this was regarding EVA out of Taiwan. They are a prosperous looking operation, so this was quite shocking. Carry on.
 
flightsimer
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:39 am

Did you ever think where all the money came from to fund the two museums, the waterpark, the helicopter ops, and everything else they have?

From my Limited understanding of it from someone else who is familiar with the subject, there were multiple issues behind the scenes which is causing the airline to "lose" money. Such as aircraft, which are not owned by the airline itself, being leased for absurdly high rates; which were higher than what -400 based frames could be acquired for by multiple factors.

However, with the change in management that came a while ago, the leases of the classics were no longer going to be tolerated and the -400s began coming online to replace them.

Now as of two weeks ago, from what I was told, they was still a possibility they could get another contract flying overseas with the classics for the military. This would allow the fleet to continue to operate, but ultimately, the classics are on their way out. Now this could have changed if a decision/ contract award was made since the first week of the month.

Again, they have four new BCFs on their way into the fleet this upcoming year. I don't think they would be bringing in new metal if they were on the verge of shutting down or these additions would put them into a situation where they couldn't cover the operating costs.
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Max Q
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:12 am

Quoting sunilgupta (Reply 16):

Second, they are the only -200s fitted with four GE CF-6-80 engines which are far more current and in widespread use as compared to the JT9D engines on the Evergreen 747-200s

Not true, the last few classics off the production line (200's and 300's) had the CF6-80 fitted in addition to some other -400 mods like the improved wing to body fairing.
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RWA380
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 25):
An ex-DL 747-200

Sweet, I flew on a DL 742 when I was a kid, not sure which ship, but I know there were not that many, so I will always wonder if that was the one we flew on, when I look up at it again. I also got to fly EZ as a passenger once, it was Aug 1980, and although not the best, it was a real cool experience & the only DC-8 I've flown to Hawaii, routing PDX-OGG-PDX
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hammer
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:12 pm

This is concerning the Kalitta -200 into Lajes. They were carrying an engine for a Delta A/C.
 
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TVNWZ
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:38 pm

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 30):
Again, they have four new BCFs on their way into the fleet this upcoming year. I don't think they would be bringing in new metal if they were on the verge of shutting down or these additions would put them into a situation where they couldn't cover the operating costs.

Companies do that all the time. They anticipate new arrivals. It does not mean they will actually arrive. And, I would venture, being 10 days late with payroll, I don't know how they could actually accomplish that.
 
Spacepope
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting hammer (Reply 33):

This is concerning the Kalitta -200 into Lajes. They were carrying an engine for a Delta A/C.

Thanks for the update. Makes sense now, since most Lajes flights for the DoD originate at BWI, not ATL.
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Newark727
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:15 pm

Is that so? Shame, I know there was an Evergreen 747-200 in and out of Ontario for UPS just a day or two after I paid the place a visit. I should have gone up to see it, then.
 
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lightsaber
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:38 pm

It is interesting how a drop in military lift needs are killing off a less economical type. Not surprising really...

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 19):

This is not the end of the the classics yet,

Incorrect. As they come up on heavy maintenance, they are being retired globally. Fuel is just too pricey to make money with a 742. Better to fly an MD-11, 777F, or if the volume is needed 744F/748F. Heck, even 744BCFs are being retired. The weak cargo market and high fuel prices are shifting the market quickly.

Look at how many 742Fs are stored! It isn't until page 7 one finds a non-stored, non-Iranian 742F 'active.'

http://www.airfleets.net/listing/b747-3.htm

By the time there is an uptick, there will be too many A330s and 772s ready for conversion to bother re-activing the type unless fuel prices plummet. We can say the end of the 742 is near.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 30):
Again, they have four new BCFs on their way into the fleet this upcoming year.

Then that ends the 742s... Its all about fuel burn.

Lightsaber
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flightsimer
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 34):

Three of the four will be in fleet within the first six months of the year, January, February, April/May with the fourth coming around October, IIRC.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):

I said that the BCFs are replacing them, but the fleet is not permanently retired YET. They could possibly still be sent overseas IF they get a contract they were going after. If they do get the contract, they will be operating two specific routes for the military USING classics for the time being. However, it is a fact that they are retired for domestic use within the US, which is why they are currently parked. If they do not get the contract, then they are indeed completely done within the airline.
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FI642
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:22 am

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 28):
World was slated to fly for UPS but had to back out due to being down an aircraft for a month and a half.

What happened to the World Aircraft?
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mayor
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:47 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 32):
Sweet, I flew on a DL 742 when I was a kid, not sure which ship, but I know there were not that many, so I will always wonder if that was the one we flew on, when I look up at it again.

Well, there were only 5 in DL's fleet......


Here's 481EV, now the Waterpark


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ben Wang




Here it is, in DL service, as ship #101/N9896



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bob Garrard

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aaway
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:30 am

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 19):
As for Evergreen's finances, they are in a pretty decent shape. They definitely won't be going anywhere anytime soon, especially since management was shuffled.
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 23):
There's a difference between profitability and cash flow, particularly when you are being paid by Uncle Sam. You are not getting a check from the government at the end of the flight -- you're being paid down the line. Sometimes, you need operating cash to keep things rolling.

I'm pretty sure that this UPS work required a significant expenditure for fuel and personnel. And yet I'm sure UPS didn't give Evergreen a check on the 23rd.

Oddly enough, it's often in periods of high-profitability expansion that companies get in a cash crunch, because they have to pay today for things that they won't be paid for for 90-120 days.

Without divulging too much, Evergreen is in funds conservation mode. A couple of the initiatives I've observed are surprising considering the functions sacrificed are basic (read: often taken for granted) to any airline and/or ground handling operation. Another initiative recently implemented (repairing ground service equipment, then selling said G.S.E.) smacks of a company circling the wagons.

Quoting rsmith6621a (Thread starter):
Citing high operational cost and the Dept of Defense now no longer accepting 200 on any of their bases it was time to to retire them.

Critical financial issues at EIA also led to the decision to park them'

My understanding is that the DoD requirement to upgrade from -200s to -400s is what led to the financial issue(s). IOW, EV's hand was forced in order to remain in contention for DoD contracts.
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mayor
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:34 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 40):

BTW, while I was finding those pics on the database, I noticed that Evergreen's "Supertanker" was an ex-DL 747-100, also.....DL ship #103, N9898, MSN 19898.
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United1
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:43 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 32):

Quoting mayor (Reply 25):
An ex-DL 747-200

Sweet, I flew on a DL 742 when I was a kid, not sure which ship, but I know there were not that many, so I will always wonder if that was the one we flew on, when I look up at it again.

... actually it's one of the 5 -100 series aircraft that DL flew for a few years back in the late 60's early 70's. DL never flew/owned any -200's of their own...outside of the -200's that NW had.
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mayor
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 43):
... actually it's one of the 5 -100 series aircraft that DL flew for a few years back in the late 60's early 70's. DL never flew/owned any -200's of their own...outside of the -200's that NW had.

My mistake.......never was really sure if they were -100s or -200s.

They took delivery in '70 and the last one left the property in '77.

[Edited 2012-12-27 08:19:40]
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
A388
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:25 pm

Am I glad I photographed their 742's not so long ago:



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Roger Cannegieter - Curacao Aviation Photography




Cheers,

A388
 
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lightsaber
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:19 am

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 38):
They could possibly still be sent overseas IF they get a contract they were going after.

Fair enough. But who else is going after the contract? I would just like to know their chances.


Lightsaber
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mayor
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:31 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 46):
Fair enough. But who else is going after the contract? I would just like to know their chances.

Maybe Omni and World?
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airtran737
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:45 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 47):
Maybe Omni and World?

Omni doesn't have a freighter program. Atlas is the new juggernaut in the AMC business. They are everywhere.
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FI642
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Evergreen Airlines Parks The 747-200 Classics

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:46 am

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 48):

Quoting mayor (Reply 47):
Maybe Omni and World?

Omni doesn't have a freighter program. Atlas is the new juggernaut in the AMC business. They are everywhere.

They are working one one. Oh boy are they. Beware!!
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