LH506
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New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:35 am

With LH cancelling various destinations of their longhaul network over the past two years like PDX, YYC, CAN, CGK, CCU, HYD and the rumours about BKK (and together with BKK certainly the tags to KUL and SGN) being on the edge, are there any rumours for new destinations or will we at best see more flights to Star Hubs like IST or ORD?
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airevents
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New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:43 am

From what I hear inside LH, there is nothing "HOT" as of now. Vancouver flights from MUC will be added in the summer season.
If I were to speculate I would put my money on another Chinese destination (maybe Shenzhen, now with Shenzhen Airlines part of Star Alliance) and Panama City (big hub for Star partner Copa) in the nearer future.
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triley1057
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:15 pm

What about linking MUC with IAH? I know that LH flies the A380 between FRA and IAH so I don't know if it would work.
 
Fuling
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:50 pm

My best is another African Long Haul flight, I'm thinking Nairobi or Dar es Salaam. Maybe a flight routed from FRA-NBO-DAR-NBO-FRA. And with good connection times, it could work well I think.

I'm not too sure about air service agreements between Germany, Kenya and Tanzania though.

[Edited 2012-12-28 04:50:48]
 
jfk777
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting airevents (Reply 1):
If I were to speculate I would put my money on another Chinese destination (maybe Shenzhen, now with Shenzhen Airlines part of Star Alliance) and Panama City (big hub for Star partner Copa) in the nearer future.

Panama City would be a great LH destination with Copa. Copa flies their 737NG's to every city you have never heard of in Latin America and they do not fly to Europe. PTY is a better connection airport even for Colombia where COPA has Copa Colombia, LH also also to BOG.
 
PanHAM
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:17 pm

I doubt that there is enough traffic to support a flight to Dar es Salaam, unless they find oil in that region. LHCargo operates to NBO daily as route stop to JNB and certainly to pick up flowers on the return flight. There is an air servic eagreement in place, as Condor serves Mombasa as well as Zanzibar occasionally.

PTY is served by Condor as well, who are known for finding niche markets. I believe that KLM is covering the majority of the Europe-PTY traffic.

. .
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LH506
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:59 pm

I have to agree on PTY.
Will be interesting to see how LH will cover SCL afterr JJ leaves Star. Maybe a tag from EZE?. How much of a diversion is FRA-PTY/LIM-SCL?
How about LIM anyhow?

Isn't LX already flying to DAR and NBO?
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factsonly
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:07 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Copa flies their 737NG's to every city you have never heard of in Latin America and they do not fly to Europe.


COPA has been codesharing from PTY to Europe for several years now in cooperation with KLM. The airline's changeover from SKYTEAM to STAR has made no difference.....as yet:

- 19.05 PTY - arr. 11:10 AMS CM 8058 Copa airlines B777 daily
- 11:35 AMS - arr 16.45 PTY CM 8057 Copa airlines B777 daily
 
PanHAM
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:37 pm

LIM is actually the most likely from what has been said so far. Don't remember when and where, but I heard that the city is high on the agenda. Tag flights are not that popular anymore, but a continuation to SCL might be a possibility.
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UALWN
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Tag flights are not that popular anymore, but a continuation to SCL might be a possibility.

LH and LX used to fly to SCL via GRU. Now JJ assures a seamless connection in GRU to SCL, but this is going to end whenever JJ leaves *A. At that point, LH and LX will need another way of getting their passengers to SCL.
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ANA787
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:44 pm

I wouldn't be surprised to see LH open back up PDX and PHX.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting LH506 (Thread starter):
With LH cancelling various destinations of their longhaul network over the past two years like PDX, YYC, CAN, CGK, CCU, HYD and the rumours about BKK (and together with BKK certainly the tags to KUL and SGN) being on the edge, are there any rumours for new destinations or will we at best see more flights to Star Hubs like IST or ORD?

FRA-LIM and FRA-SCL in my view.

Quoting LH506 (Reply 6):
Will be interesting to see how LH will cover SCL afterr JJ leaves Star. Maybe a tag from EZE?. How much of a diversion is FRA-PTY/LIM-SCL?
Quoting UALWN (Reply 9):
LH and LX used to fly to SCL via GRU. Now JJ assures a seamless connection in GRU to SCL, but this is going to end whenever JJ leaves *A. At that point, LH and LX will need another way of getting their passengers to SCL.

SCL can be better covered thru GRU or GIG. EZE would mean a longer trip, and not a big advantage for LH. And in Brazil they can manage to connect MUC/ZRH/FRA (GRU) or introduce a second flight to GIG (or EZE) and do the same.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
migair54
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting Fuling (Reply 3):
My best is another African Long Haul flight, I'm thinking Nairobi or Dar es Salaam. Maybe a flight routed from FRA-NBO-DAR-NBO-FRA. And with good connection times, it could work well I think.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
I doubt that there is enough traffic to support a flight to Dar es Salaam, unless they find oil in that region. LHCargo operates to NBO daily as route stop to JNB and certainly to pick up flowers on the return flight. There is an air servic eagreement in place, as Condor serves Mombasa as well as Zanzibar occasionally.

Actually it´s could be done, or even FRA-JRO-DAR-FRA, nowadays JRO is getting more and more attention, own dedicated flight from KLM, turkish also flying there, Qatar Airways, Kenya Airways (soon to be close and back all to PW), and DAR is a developing place, and there´s no oil but there´s a lot of Gas in the south and lot of mining and lot of tourism.

Quoting LH506 (Reply 6):
Isn't LX already flying to DAR and NBO?

Yes, LX already operates Zurich-NBO-DAR, That´s why i see it difficult to happen, and also Ethiopian offering plenty of DAR, JRO and ZNZ.


What about HRE?? I think they could do nicely there after many years, I think now the market can be good again. EK just started via LUN.
 
UA787DEN
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:45 pm

I wouldn't be surprised to see PHX and PTY start up, and CAN or SZX. The A333 or 343 (depending on the route and premium market) could work a few times a week.
 
PanHAM
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 9):
LH and LX used to fly to SCL via GRU. Now JJ assures a seamless connection in GRU to SCL, but this is going to end whenever JJ leaves *A. At that point, LH and LX will need another way of getting their passengers to SCL.

I know all that, and that's why I pointed out that a tag via LIM to SCL might be a solution.
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DALCE
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:15 pm

LX used to operate ZRH-GRU-SCL-GRU-ZRH, but ceased the tag on after JJ joining *. With LX getting some new extra metal the upcoming Nothern Summer, could LX operate let's say 3x weekly ZRH-SCL-ZRH direct? Looks better to me than FRA-SCL as LX has a weak presence in Latin America with only daily flights to GRU.
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rafabullara
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:45 pm

I think that LIM can be served via BOG with *A partner Avianca, and SCL has a better option since 3 aircrafts of LH group keeps parked at GRU enough time to do this tag, and will be able to connect for MUC, ZRH and FRA
 
LH506
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:21 pm

How big are the chances of Avianca Brazil starting the GRU-SCL service on behalf of LH?

How about some more tourist destinations such as HAV, CUN, Dakkar or DPS?
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SCL767
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting LH506 (Reply 17):
How big are the chances of Avianca Brazil starting the GRU-SCL service on behalf of LH?

AV Brasil will have to fill the void left by TAM when TAM officially leaves the Star Alliance. AV Brasil or any other carrier that does not have any partnerships or commercial ties with LATAM can obtain slots from LATAM to launch GRU-SCL. It's highly likely that O6 will eventually launch GRU-SCL. However, O6 will have to deal with fierce competition from LATAM on the route. LA/JJ will continue to dominate the SCL-GRU route which will increase to 9x daily. Similarly, AV-TA competes with LAN on the LIM-SCL route in which TA will reduce frequency on the route to a single daily service. Meanwhile LAN will increase frequency on the LIM-SCL route up to 10x daily...
 
RAGAZZO777
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 9):
I wouldn't be surprised to see LH open back up PDX and PHX.

Not too sure about Phoenix, especially if US Airways exits Star Alliance. The FRA-PDX route was cancelled only 3 years ago so I wouldn't hold my breath on that one either.


.

Quoting DALCE (Reply 15):
LX used to operate ZRH-GRU-SCL-GRU-ZRH, but ceased the tag on after JJ joining *. With LX getting some new extra metal the upcoming Nothern Summer, could LX operate let's say 3x weekly ZRH-SCL-ZRH direct?

The thing is: does SWISS have any aircraft able to fly ZRH-SCL non-stop ? Can the A343 do that ?


.

Quoting rafabullara (Reply 16):
I think that LIM can be served via BOG with *A partner Avianca

Which is the status quo, but that way LH will remain a non-attractive option for flying between Peru and Europe.
JESÚS, TE AMO !!
 
point2point
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:04 pm

I would wonder if there would be a chance that MUC-DEN would be a possibility to restart?

LH tried this a few summers ago, and then cancelled it rather quickly after a summer. From what I read between the lines from the press release about the cancellation here, it seems that this route had no problem filling the planes, but that the premium traffic was being cannibalized from the FRA-DEN flight. And we know that these airlines take their premium traffic very seriously.

Maybe if and when the premium traffic increases, maybe sometime soon, this could be a valid long haul route for LH to add to their system, being a hub-to-hub *A route? The current FRA-DEN flight is with a 744.

 
 
UALWN
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
I know all that, and that's why I pointed out that a tag via LIM to SCL might be a solution.

I never implied you didn't know it. But maybe not everybody here did...

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 19):
Quoting UALWN (Reply 9):
I wouldn't be surprised to see LH open back up PDX and PHX.

I never wrote that.
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UA787DEN
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:27 pm

Would love to see MUC-DEN restart, or DEN-FRA go up to a 748. DEN could support more international service, I think.
 
point2point
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:51 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 22):
Would love to see MUC-DEN restart, or DEN-FRA go up to a 748. DEN could support more international service, I think.

The LH 748i has some 100 premium (first + business class) seats. The 744s (depending on version) has anywhere from 64 to 90 premium seats. And when LH uses the A346 on FRA-DEN, as they do a lot of the time here as well, there are 68 premium seats on this bird.

LH bringing the 748i into FRA-DEN might be exactly what would prevent LH from starting a MUC-DEN route if the issue were the premium seats, as that seemed to be the reason LH officials gave for cancelling the MUC-DEN flight.

And yes, depending on where and the season, there is definitely enough O&D alone on some DEN-xxx/international/longhaul to support more nonstop flights.

 
 
EddieDude
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:25 pm

Not a new destination, just a new route, but any news on LH's planned MUC-MEX? It has been "launched" once or twice only to be pulled shortly after the announcement.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
Viscount724
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:38 pm

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 19):
The thing is: does SWISS have any aircraft able to fly ZRH-SCL non-stop ? Can the A343 do that ?

Shouldn't be a problem. Airbus shows maximum range for the A343 with the higher gross weight options as about 7,200 nm with a full passenger load (but no cargo). ZRH-SCL is 6,446 nm. Possibly some payload penalty to account for winds westbound since manufacturer range numbers don't account for winds.
 
UA787DEN
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 23):
LH bringing the 748i into FRA-DEN might be exactly what would prevent LH from starting a MUC-DEN

True. But notice I said or. Either one is fine by me.
 
bavair
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:28 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 24):
Not a new destination, just a new route, but any news on LH's planned MUC-MEX? It has been "launched" once or twice only to be pulled shortly after the announcement.

It seems that this is completely off the table for now. They just don't have the right equipment for it.. The A346 is too big and the A343 doesn't seem to have the power to do the flight efficiently.
 
SCL767
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:45 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 19):
The thing is: does SWISS have any aircraft able to fly ZRH-SCL non-stop ? Can the A343 do that ?

Shouldn't be a problem. Airbus shows maximum range for the A343 with the higher gross weight options as about 7,200 nm with a full passenger load (but no cargo). ZRH-SCL is 6,446 nm. Possibly some payload penalty to account for winds westbound since manufacturer range numbers don't account for winds.

It would be great if LX launched ZRH-SCL non-stop; SCL needs more flights to Europe. Should LX launch SCL-ZRH, SCL would have non-stop or direct flights to CDG, FRA, MAD, and ZRH. IB will soon increase frequency on the MAD-SCL route to 9x weekly and BA and/or LAN will eventually launch SCL-LHR non-stop with the B-787-8.
 
EddieDude
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting bavair (Reply 27):
It seems that this is completely off the table for now. They just don't have the right equipment for it.. The A346 is too big and the A343 doesn't seem to have the power to do the flight efficiently.

Thank you bavair; makes sense. I suppose this is a job for at 77L (which LH does not operate), a 789 or an A359XWB.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
reifel
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting LH506 (Reply 6):
Will be interesting to see how LH will cover SCL afterr JJ leaves Star. Maybe a tag from EZE?. How much of a diversion is FRA-PTY/LIM-SCL?

Already today the routing/farerules of LH to SCL allow to fly via EZE and then on LAN, Sky Airline and I believe even AR. Obvisouly it's not an alliance but you don't need to be in the same alliance (nor having a codeshare on another airline) in order to offer through fares. Maybe they will just keep this option.
 
descl
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:06 pm

I was expecting that after the LAN-TAM merger LH would announce FRA-SCL but nothing has happened yet and I think it's a mistake if Star keeps SCL unattended. Plus if you consider that ties between germany and chile are quite strong a nonstop should be viable, instead of ZRH/FRA-GRU-SCL.
Maybe they will announce it for october 2013?
 
point2point
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:47 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 26):
True. But notice I said or. Either one is fine by me.

Okay.......

But I think that maybe it could be better with the A346 daily to FRA, and then one of their A333s to MUC? MUC would not have to be daily, but 4x weekly, and then adjusted for season. I believe that this would put at most about 110 premium seats daily on the market here, and only about 10 more than the 748i flight solely to FRA.

Yes, the 748i is nice...... but having two destinations from DEN here instead of one personally I think would be better.

At least that's   


 
 
UA787DEN
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:58 pm

The summer A346 should stay. Bug in the winter, they are consistently filling the 744. Also, remember this is also serving every city in the mountain west, especially those with the only UA service to DEN. This includes the entire population of Colorado and much of Montana, Wyoming, Utah, and even a little bit of Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico. It would be interesting to see how many pax end their trip in FRA. If a lot is O&D, then MUC will work nicely. But if too much is connecting, both flights will be hurt. I think that starting by switching to a year round FRA 346 and starting MUC on a 333 would be interesting. Maybe seasonal MUC. If it works, either bring back the 744 to FRA seasonally or make MUC year round.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 18):
AV Brasil will have to fill the void left by TAM when TAM officially leaves the Star Alliance. AV Brasil or any other carrier that does not have any partnerships or commercial ties with LATAM can obtain slots from LATAM to launch GRU-SCL.

There's an offer from Latam to grant prime slots at SCL and GRU for any potential new comer. The problem is, G3 tried that before and the strong operation provided by both TAM and LAN is somewhat a giant barrier. Even with 2 daily flights, AV Brasil for example is not strong enough in terms of network to fill flights. O&D will be in a hard competition.
Very difficult to establish.
See that even G3 nowadays only runs charters GIG-SCL.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 28):
It would be great if LX launched ZRH-SCL non-stop; SCL needs more flights to Europe. Should LX launch SCL-ZRH, SCL would have non-stop or direct flights to CDG, FRA, MAD, and ZRH. IB will soon increase frequency on the MAD-SCL route to 9x weekly and BA and/or LAN will eventually launch SCL-LHR non-stop with the B-787-8

I agree SCL needs more Europe service but rather FRA than ZRH. And for LH, would make sense to come back with 1 stop service and then focus to in 1-2 year product to establish a non-stop.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
SCL767
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:10 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 34):
There's an offer from Latam to grant prime slots at SCL and GRU for any potential new comer. The problem is, G3 tried that before and the strong operation provided by both TAM and LAN is somewhat a giant barrier. Even with 2 daily flights, AV Brasil for example is not strong enough in terms of network to fill flights. O&D will be in a hard competition.

Sky Airline has also expressed an interest in operating the SCL-GRU route and would most likely code-share with O6 on the route. However, H2 would have to decrease frequency on certain domestic flights within Chile in order to operate the SCL-GRU route 2x daily...

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 34):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 28):
It would be great if LX launched ZRH-SCL non-stop; SCL needs more flights to Europe. Should LX launch SCL-ZRH, SCL would have non-stop or direct flights to CDG, FRA, MAD, and ZRH. IB will soon increase frequency on the MAD-SCL route to 9x weekly and BA and/or LAN will eventually launch SCL-LHR non-stop with the B-787-8

I agree SCL needs more Europe service but rather FRA than ZRH. And for LH, would make sense to come back with 1 stop service and then focus to in 1-2 year product to establish a non-stop.

Indeed, SCL needs more flights to Europe and starting in April LAN will increase frequency on the SCL-MAD route to 9x weekly utilizing the 787s. IMO, either LH or LX will resume service to SCL via GRU once TAM officially leaves the Star Alliance.
 
bavair
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:56 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 29):

Thank you bavair; makes sense. I suppose this is a job for at 77L (which LH does not operate), a 789 or an A359XWB.


I wouldn't be too sure about the above either. Mexico falls into the Hot and High conditions pretty well. I'm not too familiar with the situation but I would think that all of the above might have performance issues on this route too. Capacity wise a B789, A359 or potentially even B787-1000 if it ever exists would be perfect for the route.

I suspect that when the economy in Europe picks up again this route will be back on the table pretty fast. Maybe in 2 years or so.

[Edited 2012-12-29 21:57:06]
 
af773atmsp
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:48 am

I always have hope that one of these years LH will finally start FRA-MSP. Its been talked about since the early 2000s, and I don't know if this flight could be more economical now or in the near future than in the early 2000s. Always like seeing discussion about it though.  
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
LH506
Topic Author
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:35 am

Indeed, SCL needs more flights to Europe and starting in April LAN will increase frequency on the SCL-MAD route to 9x weekly utilizing the 787s. IMO, either LH or LX will resume service to SCL via GRU once TAM officially leaves the Star Alliance.

Does anybody know how many passengers LH/LX carry to SCL via GRU, EZE, GIG and BOG on a daily base? I still have my doubts, that LH would fill a daily or 4 times per week 343. Since parking in GRU is such a valuable asset, A tag from GIG might be a viable option, but then you lose the ZUR and MUC passengers, unless you use a 346 on the GIG route in order not to lose capacity to GIG. Howbare the loads on FRA-GIG?
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yp6370
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RE: New LH Longhaul Destinations, If Any At All?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:57 am

One issue with long hauls is always the high fuel consumption/price. MUC-SIN was not economical so why should they launch another ultra long flight to e.g. SCL with no partner airline on the other end.

Africa is covered well by LX/SN.

PTY sounds logical as does SZX with it's large (and industrial) catchment area and a new star partner.

It was also rumored there could be some leisure destinations added with the conversion of 340/747 in 2-class config.