BommerJan
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LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:19 pm

Lufthansa does not need 5th 747-8i it was designated for. Now LH expects to receive only 19 of the original 20 ordered.

http://www.aero.de/news-16541/Fuenft...eibt-vorerst-ein-Testflugzeug.html
 
columba
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:34 pm

I believe this has more something to do that this particular aircraft was a test aircraft rather than with the 747-8I itself. As it is stated in the article above LH has the right to order a new build aircraft instead
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PanHAM
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:38 pm

Well the text reads a bit different.

The cancellation has a couple of benefits for LH, it gets the liability off the books for now, it can decide later if it wants to take up a 20th 748i whoich then will be a brand new aircraft instead of a 3 year old 2011 build which has some mileage as a test aircraft already and Boeing can sell it off as a VIP aircrafrt after they have the tank testing flights finished and the problem solved. I am suere that LH will get some kind of compensation for needing to fly an old 744 instead as well.
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lhrnue
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:22 pm

The text reads completely different.

The article says, that Boeing has asked LH to keep this particular aircraft for further testing. LH seems to be fine with this and they keep their option open to take the 20th 747-8i or not.
 
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Stitch
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:23 pm

Quoting BommerJan (Thread starter):
Lufthansa does not need 5th 747-8i it was designated for. Now LH expects to receive only 19 of the original 20 ordered.
LH did note that they are considering exercising some of their 747-8 options, so they may yet receive 20 or more airframes.


As to why LH cancelled this specific airframe, Boeing needs a 747-8 to continue testing the fix to enable the tail fuel tank and an update to the Flight Management Computer. Because of this, this airframe will become somewhat of a "unique" bird and LH would prefer to have all their planes of the same "standard".

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_12_20_2012_p0-531065.xml

[Edited 2012-12-28 05:26:11]
 
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N14AZ
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:48 pm

oh oooooh! I have a feeling how this thread will end up...  
 
BommerJan
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:12 pm

The text indicates that LH cancelled one 747-8i purely because of "flexibility" issues, no mentioning of issues with this specific frame, rather a downsizing of the order (German native speaker here).

"Lufthansa hat sich (...) aus reinen Flexibilitätsgründen für eine Abbestellung dieser Maschine entschieden"

And the LH speaker makes it even clearer by saying that now they have 19 and no longer 20 frames on order.

"Damit hat Lufthansa jetzt 19 Maschinen diese Typs bestellt, die bis Ende 2015 ausgeliefert werden sollen."

I think it cannot be clearer. And I cannot be more factual.
 
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Stitch
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting BommerJan (Reply 6):
The text indicates that LH cancelled one 747-8i purely because of "flexibility" issues, no mentioning of issues with this specific frame, rather a downsizing of the order (German native speaker here).

From the AviationWeek article:

Quote:
Explaining the decision, the German carrier’s 747-8 chief pilot Elmar Boje says the extensive flight test modifications already made to the aircraft would mean that, even after post-test refurbishment, the unit would be a non-standard “white elephant” in the Lufthansa fleet. However, he adds the airline’s long-range fleet group is due to decide on adding additional aircraft by the third quarter of 2013, some of which could include 747-8s.
 
BommerJan
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:34 pm

Nice words to gift-wrap the downsizing of this order. But actions speak clearer than words.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:44 pm

When are they launching FRA-EZE on the 747-8? have they started/announced anything besides FRA-DEL, BLR, IAD, ORD, LAX, HKG, and EZE?
 
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Stitch
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting BommerJan (Reply 8):
Nice words to gift-wrap the downsizing of this order. But actions speak clearer than words.

If LH wanted to downsize their order by a single frame, they would not have cancelled an already-constructed frame - they would have cancelled an unbuilt frame (likely the last one scheduled to be built).

But I guess we'll see in 2013-2015. *shrug*
 
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:54 pm

I wonder if the planned registration D-ABYE will now be put on another plane...
 
AA94
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:47 pm

The article specifically mentions LN1435 (I don't speak much German, but I can read the line number mentioned), so it seems to lend to the thought that LH has issues with this specific frame, not the order itself.

If they really only wanted 19 748s, they would've cancelled the last unbuilt frame, not a random one in the middle.

For English speakers, here is the AvWeek article: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_12_20_2012_p0-531065.xml

Quote:
“Lufthansa opted to take a new aircraft instead in 2014,” says Lund. “So as a result, we had to pull this one out and delay delivery to next year. Lufthansa reserves the right to add another at the end. We asked to use it, and it was already instrumented for tail fuel testing. So all in all it’s a good business decision by them,” she adds.
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SEPilot
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting AA94 (Reply 12):
If they really only wanted 19 748s, they would've cancelled the last unbuilt frame, not a random one in the middle.

It's not a random one in the middle, it's the one that was used for flight testing. And it came about, not because LH is unhappy with it, but because Boeing needs it longer than they expected. Both sides then concluded that when Boeing was done with it it would be too different from all the other 748i's for comfort, and so they mutually agreed that Boeing would sell it to someone else. LH has stated that they will probably take another one to replace it; in fact, they are talking about exercising their options for 20 more. The upshot is that Boeing had a problem, and LH is cooperating with them to solve it.
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting BommerJan (Thread starter):
Now LH expects to receive only 19 of the original 20 ordered.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
If LH wanted to downsize their order by a single frame

So does LH have now 19 on order minus the delivered ones or 20?

Quoting columba (Reply 1):
LH has the right to order a new build aircraft instead

Umm, which airline does not have a right to order a new build aircraft?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
The cancellation has a couple of benefits for LH, it gets the liability off the books for now, it can decide later if it wants to take up a 20th 748i

This would be true for any cancellation for any airline, right? So it's just PR language to soften the impact.
 
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747classic
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:12 pm

Boeing needs to flight test a few fixes for some issues that were discovered during the original flight tests. At the moment both the 747-8F and the -I are fully certified, but with some (minor) limitations.

The above mentioned fixes (engine modification to lower the SFC, navigation software update and a tail tank re-activation) have to be flight tested and certified in an amended 747-8 Type Certificate, scheduled for the end of 2013 for implementation at the assembly line at the start of 2014.

Because the tail tank is only used at the 747-8 Intercontinental, Boeing needed a 747-8I for these 2013 test flights.

The only available 747-8I was the former 747-8I test aircraft #2, L/N1435, D-ABYE. An additional advantage for Boeing is that this aircraft is already (partly) test wired.

So Boeing needed the aircraft and for Lufthansa it was an elegant way to cancel this early produced airframe, with a relative high operational empty weight and with an off-standard specification, after the airframe was refurbished after finishing the flight tests.
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Stitch
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 14):
So does LH have now 19 on order minus the delivered ones or 20?

They have a total of 19 on order, 4 of which have been delivered.
 
AA94
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 13):

Sorry, my thoughts were unclear. The OP made it sound as if LH was unhappy with the 748, and was reducing their order for reasons related to displeasure/inflexibility.

What is really happening is exactly what you describe, and I'm aware of that. Apologies if that didn't come across in my post. I was attempting to point out that if LH was really unhappy with the 748, and was cancelling a portion of their order as a result, they wouldn't cancel delivery of the 5th airframe to be received. They'd cancel their order for an unbuilt aircraft to be delivered sometime down the road.
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 14):
Quoting columba (Reply 1):
LH has the right to order a new build aircraft instead

Umm, which airline does not have a right to order a new build aircraft?

Normally once a contract is signed it is for specific aircraft, and once assembly has started on that aircraft unless unusual events intervene, the carrier is obligated to take that aircraft. In this case exceptional events intervened, and the contract was modified by mutual consent. My understanding that LH can take as its 20th aircraft (presumably for the same price) a later build, or they can just take 19. This would not be the case with most contracts. My suspicion is that they will take the later build, and that they will exercise some or all of their options as well.
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:44 pm

To suggest this is a disapproval of the 748i from LH is probably a step to far.

The aircraft in question has always been a test aircraft (being used for certification) and as such the contract between LH and Boeing would have had very specific conditions on how this particular aircraft was to be treated (maximum flight test hours, re-furbishment, minimum commonality with other 748i's, etc). In instances where the contract is no longer representative or where one party proposes changes where the conditions of the contract are going to be difficult to be met or maintained the easiest option can often be to simply cancel the contract and start again.

I'd suggest with the aircraft requiring modifications for tail tank testing the state of the aircraft and its performance will probably be outside the previously agreed contract conditions. As a result we have a single order cancellation.
 
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:40 am

If LH does not like an a/c type, they will get rid of it pretty quickly and convert those orders for something else. This is not the case here. They are simply not taking up an a/c due to it being a test frame with excess wear and tear on it. Now, I would imagine knowing LH, that they will convert some options into firm orders when it is time too.

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sweair
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:10 am

Boeing has taken 5000 pounds off the 748 by now, in 2015 they aim to have taken another 5000 pounds off it, have a PIP on the engine, an activated tail tank and software mods.

LH would get a much better frame in 2015 compared to the early test frame, a wise decision! It might be so good others will follow LHs lead  
 
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:21 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 21):
LH would get a much better frame in 2015 compared to the early test frame,

It's almost a shame that LH will have already 14 of those 'older' 748 frames by 2015 (4 in 2012, 5 in 2013 and 2014). Even the 5 slated for delivery in 2015 won't be the new frame.

[Edited 2012-12-29 02:29:01]
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BommerJan
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:25 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 13):
LH has stated that they will probably take another one to replace it; in fact, they are talking about exercising their options for 20 more.

Please provide your source/link for this.

What LH stated is "Damit hat Lufthansa jetzt 19 Maschinen diese Typs bestellt, die bis Ende 2015 ausgeliefert werden sollen.", which translates into " With this decision 19 frames of this type are now on order, which will be delivered until 2015." No more, no less.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 18):
My understanding that LH can take as its 20th aircraft (presumably for the same price) a later build, or they can just take 19.

Obviously, any airline can order new aircraft at any time. LH as they said "cancelled" ("Abbestellung") one of their existing 747-8i order ommitting any indication whether they would order more of this type.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 17):
The OP made it sound as if LH was unhappy with the 748, and was reducing their order for reasons related to displeasure/inflexibility.

No, I simply quoted the airline as saying that the cancelled one of their 747-8i "purely because of flexibility", not exactly clear what this means. What it does mean is they do not need this - the fifth - 747-8i delivered now.

This is such a landmark deal with so much riding on it for Boeing that had LH and Boeing wanted to keep this really low key, Boeing would have convinced LH to just stick to its original 20, with the ominous No 5 still becoming a testbed for them to test whatever they need to test without any new customers/orders on the horizon. However, LH did not. LH downsized the order. Whether they are displeased with the aircraft we can only speculate. But LH downsized the order for a fact without any indication what they would do next with regards to the 747-8i at this time.
 
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:57 am

We have often discussed about the asset called "flexibility2 which seems to be a core key of success for that company.

Instead of carrying "D-ABYE" through the books for another 2 or so years they have used the currect slow growth period to simply cancel the order

LH currently still has 20 744s in their fleet. Two are scheduled to go, one in December 12 and one in January 13, With 5 748i joining the fleet in 2013, we can assume that these replace five 744s, bringing the sub-fleet down to the intended 13. Depending on traffic outlook next year, they might keep one additional 744 for some time. We'll see.
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SEPilot
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:04 am

Quoting BommerJan (Reply 23):
Please provide your source/link for this.

I do not have a direct source; I am going by what others have said on this forum. I am also convinced that LH management is composed of sharp businessmen who will not give up any advantage in a negotiation without getting something substantial in return. Hence their decision to cancel rather than just substitute another aircraft; this keeps their flexibility in case economic conditions sour on them, and (I presume) lets them pick up the extra frame later at an advantageous price. But that is just my read on it.
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:49 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 22):
It's almost a shame that LH will have already 14 of those 'older' 748 frames by 2015 (4 in 2012, 5 in 2013 and 2014). Even the 5 slated for delivery in 2015 won't be the new frame.


Only 9 Lufthansa 747-830 aircraft will be delivered with the 3 issues, mentioned in this thread.

The five 747-830 aircraft, earmarked to be delivered to Lufthansa in 2014 , are scheduled to receive all the three major updates :
- GEnx-2B PIP
- NGFMC 3.0 software update
- re-activated tail fuel tank, incl. the by LH requested CG control, due the actual observed more fwd. CG (compared to the 744) during cruise.

All three fixes will be introduced at the same time with a block change at the final assembly line. This block change will be introduced for all aircraft delivered in 2014. With the current 2 aircraft/month production rate the block change will be around L/N 1495-1498.

Also the OEW of later built airframes will be further reduced , but AFAIK this seems to be a continuous process and not according one dedicated block change.

Earlier built aircraft will be modified during their next HMV( Depending the small letters in the contract : by Boeing or by the customer with a Boeing supplied modification kit) , only some of the OEW reductions may not be 100% rectified.

[Edited 2012-12-29 03:56:37]
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KarelXWB
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:13 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 26):
Only 9 Lufthansa 747-830 aircraft will be delivered with the 3 issues, mentioned in this thread.

My bad, somehow I read that those 3 updates won't be available until the end of 2015.
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babybus
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:23 pm

LH should be forced to take that frame to ensure that this act of refusal isn't seen as a lack of faith in the aircraft.

I presume LH being the only prestigious airline to take the aircraft as a passenger version got a very flexible contract and a rather sweet offer price.
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sweair
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:30 pm

The PIP2 for the 787 is the PIP1 for the 748 and it is close to being certified for delivery on the 787. So I guess the 748 will get this PIP in 2013 a bit later than the 787.

I have not heard LH complain about their current 748s, they have only had positive opinions on it. It will get even better with time and they know this and probably plan to use this improvement.
 
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 29):
The PIP2 for the 787 is the PIP1 for the 748 and it is close to being certified for delivery on the 787. So I guess the 748 will get this PIP in 2013 a bit later than the 787.

Mid-2013 is the target for the GEnx-2B PIP certification.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...genx-1b-boeing-787-slips-next-year (see last 2 paragraphs).
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sweair
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:49 pm

The 2B engine will be a very good engine when it is PIPed, way better than the CF6, too bad only the 748 had a use for it. I could see A330 and the 767 make use of it too. But if they make the old planes better that takes away a lot of the advantages for the new planes..
 
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:51 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 28):
LH should be forced to take that frame to ensure that this act of refusal isn't seen as a lack of faith in the aircraft.

If the frame isn't up to contractual specs, then LH would be fully entitled to refuse it. But they haven't "refused it", they've decided to cancel that one specific frame. The only way that LH would express "lack of faith" would be if they cancelled the entire outstanding order.
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columba
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:55 pm

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 14):
Umm, which airline does not have a right to order a new build aircraft?

For the same conditions as the ones ordered before is what I meant before.

I believe that Lufthansa and Boeing are in deep discussion anyway at the moment as LH will place an order next fall and the now canceled 747-8I will be an issue in this order whether it will conclude more 747-8Is or 787-10s.
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RE: LH Cancels One 747-8i

Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:42 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 31):
The 2B engine will be a very good engine when it is PIPed, way better than the CF6, too bad only the 748 had a use for it. I could see A330 and the 767 make use of it too. But if they make the old planes better that takes away a lot of the advantages for the new planes..

Re-engine program for military 767s in 20 years.

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