bambicruz
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Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:21 pm

Forgive me if this has been discussed before but the search feature didn't come up with much...

I'm planning a trip to Alaska in 2013 and was surprised to notice there was no non-stop flights from either JFK or EWR to Anchorage. You either have to transfer at ORD or SEA. If Chicago can sustain direct flights to Anchorage, then I would assume NYC surely can as well.

Can someone shed some light as to why Anchorage does not have a direct link to NYC?

Thanks
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STT757
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:24 pm

CO used to fly EWR-ANC nonstop seasonally, I suspect this route will return at somepoint.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Joost
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:27 pm

ANC-ORD is pushing the limits of the 737NG, but still doable with reasonable payload. Hence AS is able to fly the route.

ANC-JFK / EWR is too far for a 737. So you need at least a 757, and you might not be able to fill it during the winter.
 
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TK787
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting joost (Reply 2):
ANC-JFK / EWR is too far for a 737

Is it not even possible with 739ERs with additional tanks?
 
premobrimo
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:38 pm

Don't forget MSP-ANC!

4x Daily 757 service in the summer.
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STT757
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:49 pm

CO's EWR-ANC flight was with a 738 IIRC.
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iFlyLOTs
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:50 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 3):
Is it not even possible with 739ERs with additional tanks?

The range of the 739ER with the additional tanks is ~3250NM and the distance from Anchorage to NYC is 3370MN
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MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 5):

Wow, did they have to take a payload restriction?

[Edited 2012-12-28 08:47:14]
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UA787DEN
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:34 pm

Great circle NYC-ANC is 2931 NM. Quite doable in a 737/320. ORD-ANC is 2473 NM.
 
migair54
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:59 pm

Quoting joost (Reply 2):
ANC-JFK / EWR is too far for a 737. So you need at least a 757, and you might not be able to fill it during the winter.

Or a B737-700.

Actually it´s quite strange that nobody flies the route, not even few times a week, when a city-hub like MSP can sustain 4xday B757 in summer.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:00 pm

LAX cannot even maintain year round service to ANC. ORD is a gateway to the eastern US and AS code shares with AA. However for the ,ost part during the winter all flights to Alaska go via SEA. Summer has an interesting mix of seasonal routes for tourists and cruise traffic.8
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steex
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 8):
Great circle NYC-ANC is 2931 NM. Quite doable in a 737/320. ORD-ANC is 2473 NM.

It could be done, but "quite doable" is an overstatement considering the longest 737 route in the world is 2,941nm on Copa's PTY-MVD. Comparatively, a westbound NYC-ANC would also face much stiffer headwinds than Copa's largely north-south routes into deep South America, which could make things difficult.

I suspect the reason for the lack of non-stops is that there wouldn't be a substantial fare premium for the non-stop and the demand to/from ANC is scattered enough throughout the eastern portion of the USA that it's just as easy to connect folks through a Western or Midwestern hub rather than fly them all the way to NYC and then connect.
 
UA787DEN
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:35 pm

Does UA run IAH-ANC, and on what? And what does AA operate to DFW? I didn't realize how much of a stretch this would be on a 737. I could see a 752 4x weekly working, and the MAX could fit quite well on the route if it meets expectations.
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:44 pm

I can see B6 giving JFK-ANC a try when its A321's start coming online. B6's ANC-LGB/SEA flights, which offer onward connections to JFK, could help B6 determine the true demand for a non-stop flight.

That said, an A321 is far too much capacity for the winter months. I think this route would be seasonal.

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UA787DEN
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:48 pm

I think that JFK-ANC is too far for the 321. I could see it as a 320NEO route in the future.
 
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STT757
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:01 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 12):
Does UA run IAH-ANC, and on what?

Yup, big oil route. It will be operated by a sUA 757 this Spring.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
steex
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:09 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
Yup, big oil route. It will be operated by a sUA 757 this Spring.

It is a seasonal route, though. UA/CO has long operated a one-stop IAH-SEA-ANC route and supplemented it with summer seasonal non-stop service. CO usually switched the flight numbers in the summer such that EWR-SEA-ANC was the through flight, not sure if UA is doing this still. I know UA is adding a second SEA-ANC rotation, which I assume is a continuation from EWR.
 
Sancho99504
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:12 pm

The 73G and A319 can do NYC-ANC with minimal restrictions. Westbound would block in around 7:52, which could push fuel reserves, while The question is, can they do it for a profit?
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AirframeAS
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:33 pm

UA does DEN-ANC on a 738 just fine.
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UA787DEN
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:37 pm

ANC-DEN is 2090 NM, about 900NM shorter than NYC and 400NM shorter than ORD.
 
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STT757
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 16):
UA/CO has long operated a one-stop IAH-SEA-ANC route and supplemented it with summer seasonal non-stop service. CO usually switched the flight numbers in the summer such that EWR-SEA-ANC was the through flight, not sure if UA is doing this still.

CO used to have both SEA-ANC and PDX-ANC, I believe the PDX-ANC flight originated in IAH and the SEA-ANC flight originated in EWR.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
UA787DEN
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:45 pm

If you were UA, you could choose between your 737 operating a dangerously long non profitable route about once a day, or have it operate 3 or more daily profitable east coast runs. The 737/319 could do it, but it just doesn't make sense for the airline. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see it return as a 757, MAX, or NEO route at some point.
 
LV
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:58 pm

It really comes down to yield and allocation of resources. Yes, the market is there but is there enough yield on there to tie up a plane for several hours when that same plane could be doing multiple flights on shorter segments and earning more revenue/ yield?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:37 pm

Quoting bambicruz (Thread starter):
If Chicago can sustain direct flights to Anchorage, then I would assume NYC surely can as well.

It's not Chicago sustaining the direct flight, it's connecting traffic going through Chicago. Chicago is collecting traffic from the entire Eastern US. It makes no sense to fly east to NYC only to connect and fly west again to ANC, and NYC by itself doesn't have enough traffic.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 3):
Is it not even possible with 739ERs with additional tanks?

Extra tanks are almost guaranteed to kill the economics of a route like that, even if they allowed you to get there. You pay a very heavy payload penalty (in both weight and space terms) for that extra few hundred miles. NYC-ANC would be a great revenue cargo route but you'd have nowhere to put the cargo.

Tom.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 19):
ANC-DEN is 2090 NM, about 900NM shorter than NYC and 400NM shorter than ORD.

But JFK/EWR are at sea level and ORD is only 668 ft. ASL. DEN's 5,431 ft. elevation must offset some of the difference in mileage.
 
UA787DEN
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:08 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
DEN's 5,431 ft. elevation

A bit. I will say one thing: 16,000 ft runway/12,000 ft runways. The design range on a 738 is long enough that DEN doesn't really affect the DEN-ANC flight.
 
atct
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:04 am

As of last summer we had the following from UA/CO

IAH-ANC B757-300
EWR-SEA-ANC B739 (earlier flight)
IAH-SEA-ANC B739 (Later flight)
ORD-ANC B738
DEN-ANC B738
SFO-ANC B738

At the moment we have 2 daily SEA's and 1 daily to DEN, usually all with 738/9's until summer.

atct
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RWA380
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):

CO used to have both SEA-ANC and PDX-ANC, I believe the PDX-ANC flight originated in IAH and the SEA-ANC flight originated in EWR

When did CO do PDX-ANC, back in the 70's and 80's with their interchange flights with AS or WA? I know for sure TW operated PDX-ANC as a STL-PDX-ANC routing, year round with M80's, and summer got a 757 a year or two.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
Prost
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:53 am

Also, keep in mind that the Anchorage MSA population is only 380,000 so you're not talking a large population base that isn't being served.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:17 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 5):
CO's EWR-ANC flight was with a 738 IIRC.

That flight was never a true direct. It always stopped in IAH and I believe it was a 739 that operated this route.
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bomber996
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:20 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
But JFK/EWR are at sea level and ORD is only 668 ft. ASL. DEN's 5,431 ft. elevation must offset some of the difference in mileage.

By less than 1NM. DEN is just much closer than NYC

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=anc-den%0D%0Aanc-jfk&MS=wls&DU=mi

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UA787DEN
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:33 am

DEN is nicely positioned. But to all...what are the chances of NYC-ANC opening as a MAX/NEO route in the future? B6, UA, DL, even AA.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:40 am

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 31):
NYC-ANC opening as a MAX/NEO route

I can see AA do a 3x weekly A319 NEO flight.
Not every day we find light winds. What do we do in these situations? Fly.
 
UA787DEN
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:48 am

I don't know who will serve it, but I expect it in a few years.
 
keithh233
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:38 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 27):
When did CO do PDX-ANC, back in the 70's and 80's with their interchange flights with AS or WA? I know for sure TW operated PDX-ANC as a STL-PDX-ANC routing, year round with M80's, and summer got a 757 a year or two.

Summer of 2010 actually. I am not sure if they ran it years before or not.
 
Yukon880
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:42 am

"Why No Direct NYC-ANC... ?"

m- o- n- e- y...

simple!
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iowaman
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:48 am

Maybe DL could run a 762 JFK-ANC during the summer? Does a 752 have range for summer EWR-ANC on UA? Just thinking out loud here.
 
bomber996
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:09 am

Quoting iowaman (Reply 36):

Maybe DL could run a 762 JFK-ANC during the summer?

No 762 from DL anymore.

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UA787DEN
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:20 am

The 762 has bad economics. Horrid. Also, the 762 is way too premium heavy and way too much capacity. DL would lose a ton of money.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:14 am

Quoting keithh233 (Reply 34):
Summer of 2010 actually. I am not sure if they ran it years before or not.

I did not know this, I know CO has been big here at PDX on and off since the 1960's but after 2000, it's never been much.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
Passedv1
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:20 am

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 6):
The range of the 739ER with the additional tanks is ~3250NM and the distance from Anchorage to NYC is 3370MN

I am not sure that any US carriers have ordered the 900ER's with extra tanks. Alaska for sure has not. I don't believe that United has the extra tanks either.
 
varigb707
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:23 pm

Quoting premobrimo (Reply 4):

Don't forget MSP-ANC!

4x Daily 757 service in the summer.

I flew NW ANC-MSP ON Sept 08 2001, then MSP-DFW.
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Yukon880
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:17 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 21):
If you were UA, you could choose between your 737 operating a dangerously long non profitable route about once a day, or have it operate 3 or more daily profitable east coast runs
Quoting LV (Reply 22):
It really comes down to yield and allocation of resources. Yes, the market is there but is there enough yield on there to tie up a plane for several hours when that same plane could be doing multiple flights on shorter segments and earning more revenue/ yield?

Kudos to UA/LV...

The way I see it, this is the bottom line.

Airframe capability certainly has bearing on the equation, but it does not change the economic reality. If/when a carrier can allocate a frame to a 15hr (give or take) rotation NYC-ANC-NYC, and make more money than flying it somewhere else for the same amount of time, then that's when we'll enjoy the route again.
Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
 
airbazar
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:41 pm

NYC is too far East to be a good connection point for ANC, and as stated can't be done with a 737/A320. The main carriers have hubs that are closer to ANC and can provide more connecting possibilities. For example, ORD/MSP can connect the entire eastern 1/3 of the country (and the most populous area), without any backtracking or significant deviation from the GC route. One could even argue that ORD/MSP can connect the entire eastern half of the country with minimal backtracking for some. The Summer months may be the only time when there is enought demand to operate anything larger than a 737/A320 from NYC.
 
brilondon
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 13):

I can see B6 giving JFK-ANC a try when its A321's start coming online. B6's ANC-LGB/SEA flights, which offer onward connections to JFK, could help B6 determine the true demand for a non-stop flight
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 23):

Quoting bambicruz (Thread starter):
If Chicago can sustain direct flights to Anchorage, then I would assume NYC surely can as well.

It's not Chicago sustaining the direct flight, it's connecting traffic going through Chicago. Chicago is collecting traffic from the entire Eastern US. It makes no sense to fly east to NYC only to connect and fly west again to ANC, and NYC by itself doesn't have enough traffic.

I had the same question as to whether there was enough traffic to justify the equipment for the route. You are not going to have enough demand for the route during the winter months. I mean seriously, who would want to fly up to the arctic in the middle of winter that did not have to go?
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EWRandMDW
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:18 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 23):
It's not Chicago sustaining the direct flight, it's connecting traffic going through Chicago. Chicago is collecting traffic from the entire Eastern US. It makes no sense to fly east to NYC only to connect and fly west again to ANC, and NYC by itself doesn't have enough traffic.

I recall recent US summer PHL-ANC nonstops on a 757. PHL is only a very short distance farther west and south than EWR. If that service can succeed at PHL, I would imagine it could succeed at EWR (or JFK).
 
Yukon880
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 45):
I recall recent US summer PHL-ANC nonstops on a 757. PHL is only a very short distance farther west and south than EWR. If that service can succeed at PHL, I would imagine it could succeed at EWR (or JFK).

This seasonal service lasted two summers and was not part of the mix for 2012.
Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
 
reifel
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:45 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
Yup, big oil route. It will be operated by a sUA 757 this Spring.

In the GDS this summer it shows this flight with a stop in SEA though...
 
UA787DEN
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:51 pm

To all who want a 762 or 757 on the route: most airlines aren't starting new routes with these planes. A 762 is way too much plane and very premium heavy compared to a 752 or 753. These planes are going to be retired fairly soon. For now, if they are going to operate on that long of a stage length, it's going to be transcontinental and transatlantic. That's where the money is.
PHL didn't work. NYC has better O&D, but actually slightly worse connections to the US. Chicago is great for connections. So is DEN and the entire west coast. Any airline would rather put their NYC slots and equipment of that sort to, say, DUB, MAN, CDG, AMS and so on.
It is quite possible to fly this route. Its also, with current aircraft, a financial bloodbath and quite pointless route.
 
citationjet
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RE: Why No Direct NYC-ANC

Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 23):
Quoting bambicruz (Thread starter):If Chicago can sustain direct flights to Anchorage, then I would assume NYC surely can as well.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 23):
It's not Chicago sustaining the direct flight, it's connecting traffic going through Chicago. Chicago is collecting traffic from the entire Eastern US. It makes no sense to fly east to NYC only to connect and fly west again to ANC, and NYC by itself doesn't have enough traffic.

  

I agree, that is the reason why ORD can support the ANC service, while NYC cannot.
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