olddominion727
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:19 pm

I remember these carriers flew both the DC10 and the L10 11. Some of them at the same time. Was that a wise decision because 4 of the 8 carriers are now bankrupt?

HA, PA, BA, EA, UA, TZ, BR (british caledonian), DL
 
luv2fly
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:23 pm

It had more to do then flying both the DC10 and L1011 that is for sure
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mayor
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:25 pm

Well, DL only flew the DC-10s at first (mid 70s), while waiting for the Tristars to be delivered. The 10s left pretty quick after the Tristars arrived. After the DL/WA merger (after '87), the ex-WA 10s also left pretty quickly after the merger.

The first 10s that DL had were sold to UA and then leased back to DL while waiting for the L-1011s.



BTW, I non-revved from ORD-ATL in January of '74.........down on a DC-10 and back on an L-1011 (or vice versa..can't remember).

[Edited 2012-12-29 09:34:30]
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AeroWesty
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
Was that a wise decision because 4 of the 8 carriers are now bankrupt?

When you consider that UA acquired their TriStars by way of their purchase of PA's Asian routes, I'd say it turned out to be a very wise move.
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UA787DEN
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:35 pm

By that token, flying the 767 with the 330 or 300 is a bad idea, or flying the 737 and 320, or 777 and 340. For an airline to go bankrupt, you need more than just competing plane types. Airlines are merging into other plane types. It isn't the best cost management to have 20 DC10s and 5 L-1011s but it won't kill you by itself.
 
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
When you consider that UA acquired their TriStars by way of their purchase of PA's Asian routes, I'd say it turned out to be a very wise move.

I remember when DL was looking at buying some of those Tristars from PanAm, but didn't like what they found. AFTER UA got them, then they bought them from UA.
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:43 pm

Delta's first foray with the DC-10 was as a backup plan in case the L-1011 program was scrapped (Rolls Royce almost going under in 1971 delayed their RB211 engines and at that point, it was too late in the design phase to swap engine manufacturers.). They leased them from UA and returned them once they started to get L-1011s. They acquired them again as part of the merger with Western and retired them within a few years, as the L-1011s were their widebody trijet of choice (until they got MD-11s).

BA's order for the L-1011 was made by BEA prior to the merger that created BA and the DC-10s came in via the merger with BCal. BA's charter subsidiary Caledonian (which was renamed from British Airtours) operated the L-1011 and DC-10 as they essentially passed them down to Caledonian's operations.

Eastern operated both because their L-1011s didn't have the range of other L-1011s variants and needed something with more range and got the DC-10s.
 
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STT757
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:45 pm

I got to fly on both the L1011 and DC-10 with Pan Am, great experience.
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longhauler
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:46 pm

I think you would have to look at the chain of events that lead to having flown both types, either at the same time, or at different times.

It's not like an airline went from Douglas then to Lockheed and ordered both at the same time, to fly at the same time.

The only one that might come close would be Delta, and for them it was the same reason Pan American flew both the DC-8 and the B707 at the same time .... their first choice was coming later, and they had to order their second choice to remain competitive while waiting for their first choice. (Of course, in the case of Pan American, they found when flying both that their second choice was better suited to their operations.)
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Crosswind
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:49 pm

British Caledonian never flew the L1011, only the DC-10.

When BA took over the company in 1987, they also took over B.Cal's DC-10s which continued to be used on LGW long-haul routes until the late 1990s.

To keep the Caledonian name alive, BA reanmed their charter subsidiary British Airtours to Caledonian Airways, this also helped distance the company from the tarnished brand after the 1986 Manchester air disaster.

So Caledonian never flew the L1011, although the type did wear the Caledonian name it was a separate company. Interestingly from the mid-1990s Caledonian Airways did operate DC-10-30s alongside the TriStars, as they provided the ability to operate non-stop to to Florida, Western Canada and the Caribbean which the TriStar lacked. So the types were largely complimentary in Caledonian Airways ops.

British Airways ended up operating both types soley through the takeover of B.Cal, but in the end the DC-10-30 outlasted the TriStar. I think again the DC-10-30s range made it more useful than the TriStar, although once the 777s started to arrive the DC-10s days at BA were numbered.


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ushermittwoch
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:55 pm

Good times.

My last DC-10 flight was TPA-LGW with Caledonian.
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
HA, PA, BA, EA, UA, TZ, BR (british caledonian), DL

British Caledonian's circumstances were mostly beyond their control, ultimately they were purchased by BA and didn't go bankrupt.


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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:19 pm

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 9):
British Airways ended up operating both types soley through the takeover of B.Cal, but in the end the DC-10-30 outlasted the TriStar. I think again the DC-10-30s range made it more useful than the TriStar, although once the 777s started to arrive the DC-10s days at BA were numbered.

The DC-10 was effectively operated by Caledonian Airways (KT) twice. The first time was under BA ownership when one aircraft carried KT colours and operated the BA flights to Nassau, Grand Cayman, San Juan and Tampa with a BA code. As these were leisure routes I think it suited BA to make use of the lower costs of KT. The aircraft was one of the ex-BCal DC-10s based at LGW.

As has been said, the KT TriStars came from British Airways/British Airtours and were used on high density charter flights within Europe. I was always surprised BA didn't move the TriStar 200s over to KT (Many were traded in with Boeing for 767-336ERs) to replace the TriStar 1s (many of which were upgraded to TriStar 50/100 standard).

Once KT was sold off, it added DC-10s of its own for use on long haul charter flights. It also operated other TriStars from Air Atlanta Iceland.


I've read in a couple of books about BA that the DC-10s hung on at LGW so long as BA was pleaseantly surprised by their capabilities. Yet this wasn't BA's first experience of operating the DC-10, as for a number of years it leased an Air New Zealand (TE) DC-10 to operate LAX-LHR (and that was also used on a LHR-BOS sector if I recall). There was also a big attempt by Douglas to get BA to purchase the DC-10 by proposing a RR RB211 powered version (that would have been the DC-10-50) but BA ultimately opted to go for the TriStar 500 for its long and thin requirements.

Now if BA had kept the BCal order for the MD-11 they would have joined that even more select club of carriers who had operated all three three-holer widebodies.
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:35 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 6):
Eastern operated both because their L-1011s didn't have the range of other L-1011s variants and needed something with more range and got the DC-10s.

IIRC, this was to operate the MIA-LGW route that EA was awarded.

As far as HA goes, the L10's were used for mainland services, as HA & AA were close buds during the day, HA started obtaining used DC-10's from AA to replace the aging L10's, if you'll remember the HA DC-10's were in the same metal finish as AA's birds. And HA has done pretty well for themselves with the DC-8's, DC-10's, L10's and now 767's and 330's.

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Viscount724
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:06 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
I got to fly on both the L1011 and DC-10 with Pan Am, great experience.

Pan Am only operated both types due to the merger with National which occurred after they'd ordered the 12 L-1011-500s. I flew on both and the L-1011s were best avoided, at least in Y class, as they had cramped 10-abreast charter-type seating, while the ex-National DC-10s were the more usual and more comfortable 9-abreast.
 
DariusBieber
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:30 pm

I don't think the aircraft is to blame when a company files bankruptcy. Competition, lack of interest, and poor managing come into play first.
Darius Bieber
 
DouglasDC10
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
I remember these carriers flew both the DC10 and the L10 11. Some of them at the same time. Was that a wise decision because 4 of the 8 carriers are now bankrupt?

HA, PA, BA, EA, UA, TZ, BR (british caledonian), DL

Well, none of them actually really planned to operate both types.

DL was actually the only one to order both fresh from factory. They placed an early order for five aircraft as they feared that the L-1011s would not be available on time. When it became clear that the TriStars would be more or lees available on time, the aicraft were transferred to United. Later they got another bunch of DC-10s through the merger with Western. If you count a deal through a leasing company as an order as well, ANA would be the only other one (see below).

UA got their TriStars as a package deal with Pan Am when United acquired the rights for some of the routes the TriStars flew on.

PA and BA got their DC-10s through mergers with National and BCal respectively. Caledonian was formed out of BCal and BA's charter arm which used TriStars. The DC-10s had a better range and were used on routes the TriStar was not able to fly as Crosswind and FlyCaledonian have lined out.

HA and TZ replaced their TriStars with DC-10s at a time when both types were available for cheap prices on the second hand market, but the DC-10 was available in higher numbers, offered more range and had also some younger low-time frames on the market (TZ's DC-10s were among the last built).

EA got their DC-10 to operate transatlantic flights where their early-built TriStars lacked range. The offer to lease three former Alitalia birds was too good to let it pass.

By the way, AF, IB and GA have wet-leased TriStars as well while parallely operating DC-10s. AC operated the DC-10 through acquisition of CP (though the DC-10 was phased out before both airlines were merged into one operaion). ANA ordered DC-10-10s but switched to the TriStar before the order was finalized. The ANA birds went to Turkish Airlines.

Oh, forgot CO which was pretty close to operate TriStars in the late 1980s or early 1990s as well, but the deal fell through in the last minute.

[Edited 2012-12-29 15:48:50]
 
Bellerophon
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:32 am

Crosswind

Did you by any chance ever work for BCal / Caledonian? You've got their history spot on!   

...British Caledonian never flew the L1011, only the DC-10...although the type did wear the Caledonian name it was a separate company...to keep the Caledonian name alive, BA renamed their charter subsidiary...Caledonian Airways...

For their new livery, Caledonian kept British Caledonian's "Golden Lion" insignia on the tailplane of their aircraft, but for some inexplicable reason the tip of the lion's tail - which had been turned "in" on British Caledonian livery - became turned "out" on Caledonian livery, something that can be seen in your photos!


...Caledonian did operate DC-10-30s alongside the TriStars, as they provided the ability to operate non-stop to to Florida, Western Canada and the Caribbean which the TriStar lacked...made it more useful than the TriStar...

True, and, in Caledonian, the DC10 also had a better serviceability record than the L1011, and I spent two happy years on loan to Caledonian, as a Captain on the DC10.

However, with 399 seats, the Caledonian L1011 did have the very useful ability to "collect and rescue" all the passengers from (just about) any other aircraft which had gone AOG, in one go, even if it did sometimes have to stop for refuelling on the way!

Happy New Year to all A-Netters ......... especially those who worked for "Yellow Dog" airways!!

Bellerophon
 
captainstefan
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 5):
I remember when DL was looking at buying some of those Tristars from PanAm, but didn't like what they found. AFTER UA got them, then they bought them from UA.

The PUDs!
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vv701
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:05 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 8):
When BA took over the company in 1987, they also took over B.Cal's DC-10s which continued to be used on LGW long-haul routes until the late 1990s.

BA had operated DC-10 30s more than 10 years before their purchase of BCal.

In the mid 1970s BA had a problem with their LHR-LAX service. Their 707s were not competitive with the wide-bodies that PA and TW were using by then on that route. So BA were loosing share. Of course they had their 747s but they were too large to operate the route profitably. And their L1011s did not have sufficient range to serve LAX from LHR. So in May 1975 they initiated a 4-year agreement with NZ.

Under this agreement an NZ DC-10-30 operated AKL-HNL-LAX each day. On arrival at LAX instead of turning round and flying back to AKL it was transferred to BA. It was then flown LAX-LHR-LAX on behalf of BA with both BA flight and cabin crews. On its return to LAX it was transferred back to NZ for the return flight to HNL and AKL. All these flights were operated with the aircraft in full NZ livery.

At the start of the 1978 summer schedule the agreement between BA and NZ still had a year to run. However traffic on the LHR-LAX route had grown. To meet the higher passenger demand BA launched a 747 service on the route on Days 1 through 5. Their agreement with NZ was modified so that BA could operate the NZ DC-10s on a 5-times weekly LHR-MIA-LHR and 3-times weekly LHR-YUL-LHR service. Although BA now effectively had two DC-10s on lease from NZ, the aircraft were still rotated with others in the NZ fleet. At weekends the two aircraft were returned to NZ and exchanged for two other aircraft at LAX by operating the Day 6 and 7 LHR-LAX-LHR BA rotations. This redeployment actually increased the BA operation of NZ DC-10s from what was effectively about 1.5aircraft to 2 aircraft.

At the end of the 1978/79 Winter Season the BA / NZ agreement was terminated and almost ten years would pass before BA again operated the DC-10..

So BA's reason for operating both the L-1011 and DC-10 was, like EA's, range - see Reply 6.
 
rickabone
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:27 am

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
Was that a wise decision because 4 of the 8 carriers are now bankrupt?

My guess is that more than 4 out of every 8 carriers in general are now bankrupt or no longer exist.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:41 am

EA is the only airline IMO that is suspect with operating both the L-1011 and DC-10. But it goes much further than a favorable lease deal for three -30s to cover long haul flying.

Passing on the Tristar 500 is where EA went wrong. It would have helped EA in the later years, had they standardized on the L-1011. But EA did not benefit from that cost savings.

The problem was EA could not afford an L-1011-500 order to begin with, (circa 1979-80). The critical miscalculation was in the 757 order, which put EA in a debt that they never recovered from. Operationally, the 757 was not a success for EA on the balance sheet either. In hindsight, EA would have been far better off never ordering the 757 and using the funds for the Tristar 500.

Supplemental/replacement 727 capacity could have been accomplished with a more favorable MD-82 order, 2-3 years later. With the DC-9 operations and support, the MD-82s would have fit in fine. And there's no doubt MDC were willing to deal.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
Was that a wise decision because 4 of the 8 carriers are now bankrupt?
HA, PA, BA, EA, UA, TZ, BR (british caledonian), DL

Perhaps a good question to stir up discussion. But I don't believe it for a was a significant cause for the aforementioned carriers. (excluding EA from above).

A list of airlines who mistakenly ordered/flew the 747 classic would be far greater.
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milesrich
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:41 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 6):
Delta's first foray with the DC-10 was as a backup plan in case the L-1011 program was scrapped (Rolls Royce almost going under in 1971 delayed their RB211 engines and at that point, it was too late in the design phase to swap engine manufacturers.). They leased them from UA and returned them once they started to get L-1011s. They acquired them again as part of the merger with Western and retired them within a few years, as the L-1011s were their widebody trijet of choice (until they got MD-11s).

Delta ordered them directed for MDD. They then sold them to UA and leased them back. They were returned to United by 1975.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:50 am

Quoting milesrich (Reply 23):
Delta ordered them directed for MDD. They then sold them to UA and leased them back. They were returned to United by 1975.

         That is correct. To add, the aircraft were not sold to UA until the Lockheed's production was up and running.

What is not common knowledge is that the DL DC-10 order included 20 options. These options were to have been exercised if there were another Tristar delay/setback. Furthermore, Lockheed were dangerously close to missing the final SLA/deliverables that would have allowed for a complete cancellation by DL, with virtually no penalty. How history may have been different...
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
woodsboy
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:49 am

Im not at all trying to be rude, but the suggestion that because an airline operated a DC-10 or L-1011 they went bankrupt is a nonsense correlation with absolutely zero basis in reality. You might be able to make an argument that an airline may have moved into a type that was too big (say, PSA with the L-1011) or expanded too quickly with jumbos or whatever else. But you can create a correlation for just about anything you want to show an airline went bankrupt, the fact that an airline operated a particular type of aircraft may or may not have played a role in bankruptcy. Since every major airline in America has been in bankruptcy and some did operate those types but not all of them did, you can draw a totally fake parallel if you like between ANY aircraft type and financial difficulty, it just makes no difference.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:44 am

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 26):

Im not at all trying to be rude, but the suggestion that because an airline operated a DC-10 or L-1011 they went bankrupt is a nonsense correlation with absolutely zero basis in reality.

Perhaps a better wording would've been citing L-1011/DC-10 combo for negative cash flow, rather than outright bankruptcy.
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:58 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 8):
(Of course, in the case of Pan American, they found when flying both that their second choice was better suited to their operations.)

You got me confused. I thought PAA wanted the 707 but bought the 8's to hedge their bets. At first PAA went with 25 8's and 20 707's. But the 707 came out first. PAA eventually kept their 707's and let go of their DC-8's. And then came the jumbo 747.
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Lofty
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:41 pm

I was the Technical Planning Officer for DC10, Tristar and B747 for BA at LGW, so covered the:
BA - DC10, B747
KT - L-1011, DC10 and B747 (MGS)
RAF - 2 x L-1011 ex BA


Just for clarity "British Airtours" was renamed to "Caledonian" as part of the takeover of "British Caledonian" was that the name "Caledonian" had to remain with-in the BA Group. This also lead to the "Caledonian Girls" still wearing the Tartan Uniform. I do remmeber a B737 flying around at the time with British Airways on one side and British Airtours on the other.
 
KFlyer
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:59 pm

Well, three of the list also are some of the most profitable today ( DL, HA, BA). Once you have built up a certain scale - flying two types really does not bring any additional costs or inefficiencies. However, it is in a way true that these carriers went bankrupt largely owing to their inefficiencies and that operating both D10 and L10 is an example to that.
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jfk777
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
I remember these carriers flew both the DC10 and the L10 11. Some of them at the same time. Was that a wise decision because 4 of the 8 carriers are now bankrupt?

HA, PA, BA, EA, UA, TZ, BR (british caledonian), DL

Only British Caledonian ordered their Dc-10's from Douglas directly. The othe airlines got their planes used or by merger. EA and HA got them because the Dc-10 performed a mission they didn't have planes to do. PA & BA got their palnes by merger even though they were big L-1011 users. United's Asian use of L-1011-500 has to be the most fascinating use of the plane by any airline.
 
viscount630
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 17):
For their new livery, Caledonian kept British Caledonian's "Golden Lion" insignia on the tailplane of their aircraft, but for some inexplicable reason the tip of the lion's tail - which had been turned "in" on British Caledonian livery - became turned "out" on Caledonian livery, something that can be seen in your photos!

The Heraldic Lion design changed subtly several times. It was different in the original Caledonian colours. changed again when it became Caledonian//BUA and later with BCal and the "new" Caledonian (AND Cal-Air which was a seperate carrier created from the old British Caledonian Charter after BA bought BCal)
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mayor
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
Only British Caledonian ordered their Dc-10's from Douglas directly. The othe airlines got their planes used or by merger. EA and HA got them because the Dc-10 performed a mission they didn't have planes to do. PA & BA got their palnes by merger even though they were big L-1011 users. United's Asian use of L-1011-500 has to be the most fascinating use of the plane by any airline.

Wrong. DL ordered theirs directly from Douglas, as has been mentioned above. Then they were sold to UA and leased back from them until L1011s started to arrive.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
zrs70
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:07 pm

Well, a number of carriers that flew both the 727 and 737 are now bankrupt too.
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longhauler
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 26):
You got me confused. I thought PAA wanted the 707 but bought the 8's to hedge their bets. At first PAA went with 25 8's and 20 707's. But the 707 came out first. PAA eventually kept their 707's and let go of their DC-8's. And then came the jumbo 747.

I think it depends which book one reads, and one would have to talk to Juan Trippe himself to get the real truth.

The impression I get from reading "The Chosen Instrument", is that Pan American was backing Douglas and the DC-8, as they had been a strong supporter of Douglas products. They ordered 20 B707s as an interim measure awaiting the later DC-8s, which initially appeared a better product.

Given the opportunity, Boeing improved its B707 from the initial offer to the -320 series, then the -320B series. As history shows, this better suited Pan American and went on to a huge B707, then B747 fleet.
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yyz717
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:44 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 6):
Eastern operated both because their L-1011s didn't have the range of other L-1011s variants and needed something with more range and got the DC-10s.

EA only operated 3 DC-10-30's and they were procured for MIA-London.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 12):
I've read in a couple of books about BA that the DC-10s hung on at LGW so long as BA was pleaseantly surprised by their capabilities.

I've read the same thing.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 12):
There was also a big attempt by Douglas to get BA to purchase the DC-10 by proposing a RR RB211 powered version (that would have been the DC-10-50)

The proposed RR-powered DC-10 was called the DC-10-30R, not the DC-10-50. A google search will show it was offered to BA in 1976.
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WA707atMSP
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:59 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 21):
The problem was EA could not afford an L-1011-500 order to begin with, (circa 1979-80).

In 1979/80, EA did not have any routes that required the range of the L-1011-500, or DC-10-30; their longest routes were US transcontinental routes.

By the time EA had routes that were beyond the range of their L-1011-1s (MIA-LGW / SCL / EZE), the L-1011 had gone out of production. EA could have purchased used L-1011-500s from PA or BA to operate these routes, but chose to buy used DC-10-30s instead.
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CF-CPI
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 35):
but chose to buy used DC-10-30s instead.

Engine commonality with the A300B4s already in EA's fleet made the DC-10-30 purchase less odd than it might have been.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:44 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 35):
In 1979/80, EA did not have any routes that required the range of the L-1011-500, or DC-10-30; their longest routes were US transcontinental routes.

Maybe true. But my argument is built of the premise of EA executing a different strategy. There was nothing preventing EA from launching TATL service, post-deregulation. Regardless, my statement on EA's funds being tied to the 757, and the consequences that followed are completely factual.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 35):
EA could have purchased used L-1011-500s from PA or BA to operate these routes, but chose to buy used DC-10-30s instead.

I don't think so. EA didn't have the capital for the purchases. Even though the Tristar 500 was out-of-production, it's residual value was not at basement prices in 1985. EA were near bankruptcy at this point. The DC-10-30s provided a unique opportunity at a reasonable lease price. The DC-10's were not bought from AZ; they were leased from 3rd parties.
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mayor
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 37):


I don't think so. EA didn't have the capital for the purchases. Even though the Tristar 500 was out-of-production, it's residual value was not at basement prices in 1985. EA were near bankruptcy at this point. The DC-10-30s provided a unique opportunity at a reasonable lease price. The DC-10's were not bought from AZ; they were leased from 3rd parties.

Just wondered why EA couldn't have converted some of their domestic Tristars to -250s, as DL did?
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strfyr51
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:02 pm

the United L1011-500's came with the Pan am Pacific division and once we got them operating correctly they were fine airplanes to the point that Delta bought them from UA Changed the seat covers and flew them with in a few days of delivery the airplanes only had 208 seats aboard and flew mainly SFO-Osaka Kansai International. KIX
 
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mayor
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 39):
the United L1011-500's came with the Pan am Pacific division and once we got them operating correctly they were fine airplanes to the point that Delta bought them from UA

That's why we bought them from UA after having rejected the same a/c when PA offered them.
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FlyCaledonian
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
The proposed RR-powered DC-10 was called the DC-10-30R, not the DC-10-50. A google search will show it was offered to BA in 1976.

I've read in books that the RR powered version was to be the DC-10-50, and whilst not always to be relied upon Wikipedia also states that the RR powered version was to the DC-10-50. I'm intrigued why it would be a DC-10-30R, when the P&W powered DC-10 was the DC-10-40 rather than a DC-10-30P.
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yyz717
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 41):
I've read in books that the RR powered version was to be the DC-10-50, and whilst not always to be relied upon Wikipedia also states that the RR powered version was to the DC-10-50. I'm intrigued why it would be a DC-10-30R, when the P&W powered DC-10 was the DC-10-40 rather than a DC-10-30P.

I couldn't find any evidence to the DC-10-50 in a google search. I also recall the DC-10-30R nomer when it was offered to BA (yes, I'm dating myself now)  

No doubt a RR DC-10 would have caused heart attacks at Lockheed HQ.

As for the naming convention who knows? The original DC-10-20 was renamed the DC-10-40 after it was in service. The DC-10-30 was successful with many customers so perhaps MDD rationale was to keep the DC-10-30 name and add the R to the end. I'm surmising of course.  
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Viscount724
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Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
Quoting srbmod (Reply 6):
Eastern operated both because their L-1011s didn't have the range of other L-1011s variants and needed something with more range and got the DC-10s.

EA only operated 3 DC-10-30's and they were procured for MIA-London.

In addition to MIA-LGW, the DC-10s were intended to be used on MIA-MAD where Eastern was awarded traffic rights in 1985. They never started that route. Related news items.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...20miami%20madrid&pg=1480%2C2683041
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...20miami%20madrid&pg=1220%2C2074892
 
srbmod
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:35 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 35):

In 1979/80, EA did not have any routes that required the range of the L-1011-500, or DC-10-30; their longest routes were US transcontinental routes.

By the time EA had routes that were beyond the range of their L-1011-1s (MIA-LGW / SCL / EZE), the L-1011 had gone out of production. EA could have purchased used L-1011-500s from PA or BA to operate these routes, but chose to buy used DC-10-30s instead.

Eastern in the late 70s was trying to obtain the MIA-LGW route authority and had a deal in place with QF to acquire two 742s from them for that service (as well as service to Hawaii), but when they failed to get the MIA-LGW authority, the deal fell through and by the time they got the MIA-LGW rights, they got the DC-10s. Eastern had also operated the 741 for a time while waiting for their L-1011 deliveries. So had they gotten the LGW route in the late 70s, they perhaps wouldn't have operated the DC-10 at all.
 
bx737
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting viscount630 (Reply 30):

Cal Air was founded by British Caledonian as their charter division and operated 3 DC10-10s. According to the inflight magazine of Cal Air from 1987, Cal Air was founded in 1982. When BA took over BCal, they had to sell Cal Air. It was sold to the Rank Organisation and renamed Nov Air. This bit of trivia is just to confuse issues further. Nov Air also took over Cal Air's order for 2 Boeing 737-400s and operated these until their collapse in about 1992.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:42 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 33):

Maybe a bit off topic and some trivia: PAA initially ordered De Havilland Comets when they first came out however, the catastrophic crashes nixed that deal. PAA then waited like almost everyone else for the DC-8's and 707's.
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jfk777
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:10 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 31):
Wrong. DL ordered theirs directly from Douglas, as has been mentioned above. Then they were sold to UA and leased back from them until L1011s started to arrive.

You are WRONG again, delta got Dc-10 when they merged with Western Airlines.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:17 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 48):
Quoting mayor (Reply 31):
Wrong. DL ordered theirs directly from Douglas, as has been mentioned above. Then they were sold to UA and leased back from them until L1011s started to arrive.

You are WRONG again, delta got Dc-10 when they merged with Western Airlines.

Mayor is not wrong regarding DL's first batch of 5 DC-10s operated from 1972/73 to 1975. You are correct concerning their 2nd batch of DC-10s inherited from the Western merger 12 years later.

All 5 of the early '70s batch below, registered N601DA through N605DA.


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[Edited 2012-12-30 19:23:55]
 
milesrich
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 5):
I remember when DL was looking at buying some of those Tristars from PanAm, but didn't like what they found. AFTER UA got them, then they bought them from UA.

The "World's Most Experienced Airline"'s regular maintenance of their equipment was at such a level that American end up suing Pan Am over the National DC-10's they received from Pan Am in the 747-123 trade. Delta didn't keep Pan Am's A-310's very long either. Even Eastern, when they were near bankruptcy, took better care of their planes than the Chosen Instrument.