kl911
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Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:47 pm

I was just following the Wizzair flight TLV-BUD when I noticed two TK flights flying south around Israel to Amman and another to Jeddah.

Especially for Amman that routing is long. I understand why they wont overfly Syria, but why not Israel? They even fly to TLV .
 
kaitak
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:04 pm

It may be because they are en route to an Arab country; if you were on a plane bound for Jeddah with 150 Saudis, the last thing you want to hear is "we're making an emergency diversion to Tel Aviv".
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting KL911 (Thread starter):
They even fly to TLV .

Yes, 32 x weekly IST-TLV.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:06 pm

Maybe we need a lesson on history.

Simply put, there are no airways via Israel to place like Saudi Arabia, nor Lebanon, or Syria. The ATC authorities are not even linked to provide handoff's.

For Jordan, yes in a single airway was opened in the last decade for Amman traffic, however its use is limited due to Israeli security procedures.

Below is a map of all high altitude airways in Israel. Basically its all designed for Israel destined and origin traffic, not overflight.

Download:
http://en.caa.gov.il/index.php?optio...task=doc_download&gid=1048&Itemid=

and low level airways:
http://en.caa.gov.il/index.php?optio...task=doc_download&gid=1366&Itemid=

=
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voodoo
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:20 pm

I can recall visiting Jerusalem in ~2000 though and seeing airliner contrails high overhead. Def. widebody straight line east-west headings and not some sort of 707 tanker activity.
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kl911
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:22 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Maybe we need a lesson on history.

Simply put, there are no airways via Israel to place like Saudi Arabia, nor Lebanon, or Syria. The ATC authorities are not even linked to provide handoff's.

For Jordan, yes in a single airway was opened in the last decade for Amman traffic, however its use is limited due to Israeli security procedures.

Below is a map of all high altitude airways in Israel. Basically its all designed for Israel destined and origin traffic, not overflight.

Thanks, that explains it. It was just weird to see in one frame a TK TLV-IST and the other 2 TK going around Israel.
 
CXA330300
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:57 pm

The Great Circle AMM-IST also goes over a very, very heavily guarded area of airspace around the Golan Heights. As for JED, the Saudi authorities would also not allow the flight to approach through Israeli airspace either.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
migair54
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:43 pm

Even Sudan does not allow the overfly of any plane with origin or destination in Israel, not long ago my airline send a plane for a C check to TLV and they have to land in luxor going up and down, even having the range and the possibility to do it direct, but then they have to avoid flying over Sudan.
 
flyingalex
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:22 pm

Quoting KL911 (Thread starter):
I was just following the Wizzair flight TLV-BUD when I noticed two TK flights flying south around Israel to Amman and another to Jeddah.

Especially for Amman that routing is long. I understand why they wont overfly Syria, but why not Israel? They even fly to TLV .

The current detours are somewhat new. Before the current situation in Syria started, they flew through Syrian airspace instead and approached Amman from the north.
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peterinlisbon
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:40 pm

I flew from Amman to London in April and we flew over Israel. After takeoff the captain explained that we had permission to overfly Israel, so everyone had to stay seated with their seatbelts fastened until we were 100 miles out over the Mediterranean Sea.
 
flyingalex
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:02 pm

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 9):
I flew from Amman to London in April and we flew over Israel. After takeoff the captain explained that we had permission to overfly Israel, so everyone had to stay seated with their seatbelts fastened until we were 100 miles out over the Mediterranean Sea.

So your flight got permission to use the previously mentioned transit airways:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
For Jordan, yes in a single airway was opened in the last decade for Amman traffic, however its use is limited due to Israeli security procedures.

Below is a map of all high altitude airways in Israel. Basically its all designed for Israel destined and origin traffic, not overflight.

Download:
http://en.caa.gov.il/index.php?optio...task=doc_download&gid=1048&Itemid=

and low level airways:
http://en.caa.gov.il/index.php?optio...task=doc_download&gid=1366&Itemid=
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
 
AirGAbon
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:45 am

What about the LY flights which are allowed to fly over the Red Sea heading South, to avoid the Arabic Peninsula.

Who is managing the ATC of this AirNav route and where is based the ATC? Has it an international Status through the United Nations?

Because at some point, you are right in the middle between Saudi Arabia and Sudan.
 
raffik
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:14 pm

What about flights Beirut- Amman? Do they go up the coast, then down through Syria?
And what about LY flights to Mumbai? How do they avoid the Middle East?
Are there any other countries that Israeli aircraft cannot overfly?
- Alec
 
777way
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:01 pm

With the exception of some Israel friendly Islamic states, they are not allowed to over fly any other Islamic countyr, I dont know aboute the two or three non-Islamic ones that broke off ties with them. for Bombay they fly over international waters of the Red sea and then turn near Yemen, sometimes they have entered Yemeni airspace by mistake too.
 
raffik
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:35 pm

Interesting how El Al have entered Yemeni airspace without consequence.
This incident came to mind http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2012...moriam-libyan-airlines-flight-114/ where a Libyan 727 was shot down after accidentally entering Israeli airspace after a huge sand storm made navigation difficult.

[Edited 2013-01-03 05:39:33]
- Alec
 
777way
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:16 pm

Awarnig was issued by Yemen thae last time it was reported over a decade ago.
 
CXA330300
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:44 pm

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 11):

What about the LY flights which are allowed to fly over the Red Sea heading South, to avoid the Arabic Peninsula.

There's a very, very exact route as far as Eritrea, but they have some flexibility over Eritrea, Ethiopia, and Djibouti, where they will turn, but then fly carefully again to avoid Yemen or Somalia. These routings are used by LY for TLV-BOM/JNB/BKK, as well as by ET for their TLV-ADD service. ET IIRC is unable to use Eritrean airspace and thus flies over Djibouti.
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avi
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:51 pm

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 9):
I flew from Amman to London in April and we flew over Israel.

Did you fly with a Jordanian airline? They are allowed for years now to fly over Israel (under some security conditions).

Quoting raffik (Reply 12):
And what about LY flights to Mumbai? How do they avoid the Middle East?

Flights to India are only over water starting at southern Israel as already mentioned, flights to China departs to the west, go north into Turkey and to the east detouring Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Afghanistan.
Long live the B747
 
flyingalex
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting raffik (Reply 12):
What about flights Beirut- Amman? Do they go up the coast, then down through Syria?

I'm not sure what you mean by "up the coast".

The normal routing is fairly straightforward:

Takeoff in Beirut, turn towards Damascus, when reaching Syrian airspace, turn south towards Amman.

The Jordanian and Lebanese governments don't have the same issues with the Syrian government that Turkey currently has, so I would think that routing is still in use.
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dxBrian
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:55 pm

This has very little to do with air routes in Israel, and everything to do with politics and the Air Traffic Control rules of the Arab countries. They do not allow aircraft to cross from Israeli airspace into their airspace, with the exception of Jordan, and that is only for landing at Amman. If you are not landing at Amman, you can't enter Jordan's airspace from Israeli airspace.
 
raffik
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:03 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 18):
I'm not sure what you mean by "up the coast".

The normal routing is fairly straightforward:

Takeoff in Beirut, turn towards Damascus, when reaching Syrian airspace, turn south towards Amman.

When I have flown from Beirut to Damascus (in 2001 with JAT) the aircraft flew north to about Byblos before crossing into Syria over the Bekaa valley and then heading South.

Alot of aircraft cross over at the Byblos point and I assumed this was to clear the mountains which rise very sharply to the east of the airport (in Beirut)?

Do you mean that the normal routing is to fly South along the Lebanese coast towards Israel and then cross over the South of Lebanon into Syria? I don't see how it is possible without overflying Israeli airspace

[Edited 2013-01-03 11:04:46]
- Alec
 
avi
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting dxBrian (Reply 19):
...with the exception of Jordan, and that is only for landing at Amman. If you are not landing at Amman, you can't enter Jordan's airspace from Israeli airspace.

Not exactly true.
There were cases of Israeli flights from Tel Aviv (Ben Gurion or Sde Dov) to Eilat that actually flew east of the border under Jordanian ATC.
Long live the B747
 
Viscount724
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:38 pm

Quoting raffik (Reply 12):
And what about LY flights to Mumbai? How do they avoid the Middle East?

See Reply 16. That route adds almost 3 hours to the flight time, and obviously means much higher operating costs.

Example:

LY TLV-BOM block time 7:55
RJ AMM-BOM block time 5:10

Great circle distance TLV-BOM (2187 nm) is only 58 nm further than AMM-BOM (2129 nm).
 
flyingalex
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RE: Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:05 pm

Quoting raffik (Reply 20):
When I have flown from Beirut to Damascus (in 2001 with JAT) the aircraft flew north to about Byblos before crossing into Syria over the Bekaa valley and then heading South.

Alot of aircraft cross over at the Byblos point and I assumed this was to clear the mountains which rise very sharply to the east of the airport (in Beirut)?

Do you mean that the normal routing is to fly South along the Lebanese coast towards Israel and then cross over the South of Lebanon into Syria? I don't see how it is possible without overflying Israeli airspace

Ah, that is what you mean. Given how close Byblos is to Beirut, I did not identify that as "up the coast".

What I thought you meant was that they fly north along the coast to Tartus in Syria, turning towards Homs and then south again towards Damascus. Which wouldn't make any sense.
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