af773atmsp
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MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:05 am

http://www.startribune.com/local/185343962.html?page=3&c=y

The Metropolitan Airports Commission (MAC) is apparently offering incentives to any carrier that starts non-stop flights from MSP to Hawaii. The article also mentions the upcoming AF CDG-MSP service, and attracting B6 to start service at MSP.

If I remember correctly DL dropped HNL-MSP service a couple years ago. It seems like this route was always a success for NW, but I'm not sure what the passenger loads were for DL. So with this incentive would DL be interested in restarting HNL-MSP, or if we're really lucky HA will begin flights to MSP? Not sure if SY could fly non-stop MSP-HNL with a 737.
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point2point
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:16 am

Minnesotans definitely need lots of sun flights in the wintertime time from there...... probably can't get enough of them, and a daily to HNL I would think is something that has the prospect to do (and probably did) quite well.

So if there are incentives........ and DL discontinued this flight (maybe to feed the SLC traffic?), well......HA maybe?

 
 
ck8msp
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:18 am

I wonder what DL response would be if HA decided to try this route? What about a codeshare with Alaska?
 
SANFan
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:41 am

I believe MSP is one of the largest Hawaiian markets without nonstop service at this time so it doesn't seem too far fetched to expect it to happen sometime in the foreseeable future. DL or HA would seem like the likely cx to consider it but HA might want to add a few larger markets first (such as ORD or DEN) rather than a smaller un-served market such as MSP.

And as for DL, their experiment of a few years ago with MSP and SAN to HNL was a quick and odd failure. (As for SAN, most of us here are still scratching our heads about it. Since then, AS has jumped in and seems to have no problem profitably filling multiple flights in the market.) MSP, being a major hub, is also very hard to figure out.

The incentives offered by MSP could tip the scales enough to get someone willing to try the market again. Good luck!

bb
 
mplsjefe
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:50 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
DL or HA would seem like the likely cx to consider it but HA might want to add a few larger markets first (such as ORD or DEN)

How is DEN a bigger market? MSP has over a million more people in its metro area than DEN does.
 
UA787DEN
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:14 am

The DEN HA service would serve up into Wyoming and all of Colorado. Also, West Kansas. That gets pretty big.

The Denver metronome area stats don't include Boulder and Fort Collins, both of which use DEN. Also, some people between COS and DEN use DEN, and COS connections. Add in the fact that Colorado is overall slightly more affluent, and service starts to make sense. Small areas and unimportant Airports don't get 50 million pax in a year.

However, we travel on a budget. We fly for leisure a fair amount, but we fly economy. Add in the highway robbery airport fees at DEN and it becomes a large, low-yield market. Also, UA has Hawaii service, IIRC. The market is there, but the yield might not be.

ORD has a wee bit of competition. That said, HA can't go and skip it.

I think ORD and MSP are the next two HA markets, followed soon in the order by DEN. The MSP winter is so fun people want to go to Hawaii. With the restructuring and merger, it made sense as a company for DL to cut MSP-HNL. But it will be served soonish, so DL might want to be ready to try and kill the HA service when it comes rolling in.
 
xjramper
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:16 am

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 4):
Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
DL or HA would seem like the likely cx to consider it but HA might want to add a few larger markets first (such as ORD or DEN)

How is DEN a bigger market? MSP has over a million more people in its metro area than DEN does.

DEN is the 5th largest airport per passenger volume at 25,667,499 vs MSP in the 16th spot at only 15,895,653 passenger volume. This according to the 2011 numbers.
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UA787DEN
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:25 am

Pax numbers don't mean large cities. ATL isn't the largest city. Its an overly massive hub. DEN is one of the UA and WN main transfer points, and the largest F9 hub. And the DEN MSA numbers don't accurately reflect the actual market size. DEN is the only major airport for a few hundred miles north and east. COS to the south, some Wyoming airfields to the north, a few EAS airfields in west Kansas, and EGE/ASE to the west. And those Airports don't really take a ton of pax from DEN.

What equipment was previously operated by DL MSP-ATL?
 
xjramper
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:33 am

A330 which during it's short life alternated between MSP and DTW.

And pax numbers have everything to do with planning new cities. If you are going to start a new route, you need to have to not only rely on O&D traffic, but connecting as well. The fact that DEN had 10 mil more passengers go through it's airport could play a significant factor as to where they start that flight.
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mplsjefe
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:47 am

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 7):

DEN is the 5th largest airport per passenger volume at 25,667,499 vs MSP in the 16th spot at only 15,895,653 passenger volume. This according to the 2011 numbers.

I thought we were talking O&D for flight(s) to HNL. DEN enjoys its 5th largest 'status' from very frequent F9 and WN movements. Kudos to them, but DEN is not bigger than MSP from every metric. MSP has far more international service with direct flights CDG, AMS, and NRT all on DL, and soon to be CDG on AF and likely ICN on KE beginning early 2014. DEN has none of these, or any service over-ocean outside of LHR on BA and KEF on FI, both of which MSP also has on DL and FI.

MSP-ATL is still many many times per day on a variety of metal as it is fortress hub to fortress hub.
 
UA787DEN
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:49 am

Yes, I believe DEN is a large airport. Pax amount matters for starting flights. But pax amounts doesn't always reflect city, MSA, or catchement area size, which can differ.

The problem with DEN service is that ever since the new airport opened it is a been a quite low yielding airport. It works OK under the right situation, but the fees are insane. It is literally $16 or $17 per 1,000 pounds of Max Landing weight. Some major Airports are as low as $1 or $2, and many are $3/$4. And that's just one fee. Wait until see how much a gate costs.

MSP will probably be higher yielding due to lack of competition (unless DL launches it 2 days later), and down to earth fees. Maybe HA will start with ORD, add winter seasonal MSP, year round DEN, then year round MSP?

They can't just ignore two of the top busiest Airports in the US, so DEN and ORD will receive service at some point. But CURRENTLY MSP is a large niche market that is unserved. We might end up with HA to ORD and DEN and DL on MSP. But HA will most likely launch the route at some point, or DL as a chance to get the edge on HA.

One issue for DL is spare widebodies. Where do you find them?

MSP will receive HNL service in my opinion, and probably fairly soon. The carrier(s) and equipment are yet to be discovered.
 
cbphoto
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:39 am

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 9):
MSP has far more international service with direct flights CDG, AMS, and NRT all on DL, and soon to be CDG on AF and likely ICN on KE beginning early 2014. DEN has none of these, or any service over-ocean outside of LHR on BA and KEF on FI, both of which MSP also has on DL and FI.

Don't forget DEN has LH to FRA and soon to have NRT on UA.

As for ICN on KE, has anything publicly been stated, or is it an A-net pipe dream?

I do agree, HNL is a huge hole in the MSP network and it will only be a matter of time before it is filled. Don't be surprised to see HA get little to no response from DL, as it seems lately DL doesn't care too much about new airlines flying into MSP! Then again, we could have HA and DL flying A330s non stop from HNL to MSP!
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xjramper
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:57 am

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 10):
MSP will receive HNL service in my opinion, and probably fairly soon. The carrier(s) and equipment are yet to be discovered.

MSP has had HNL flights in the past, with DL A330s.

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 9):
DEN enjoys its 5th largest 'status' from very frequent F9 and WN movements.

To me that would be the biggest drivers, especially if Hawaiian Airlines is looking for a variety of passengers. People who fly DL on a consistent basis will usually look for DL to DL metal first before looking at other options.

DEN has quite a few international destinations, outside the typical America's run, you have LH to FRA, BA to LHR, UA is restarting the TYO route sometime mid march.

That being said, Hawaii is generally not the first choice when it comes to European's vacation plans, simply because of the amount of travel involved. So international travel from Europe won't be a huge factor. And those coming from Asia can find a multitude of other ways of getting to HNL other than MSP.

So even though DEN has Frontier and Southwest/Airtran boosting them up to the #5 spot, that would be the catchment group of passengers that HA would be willing to look at, rather than a predominately DL hub. DL tried it and it failed miserably. Not sure how HA would do any better
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PHX787
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:01 am

Quoting af773atmsp (Thread starter):
If I remember correctly DL dropped HNL-MSP service a couple years ago. It seems like this route was always a success for NW, but I'm not sure what the passenger loads were for DL. So with this incentive would DL be interested in restarting HNL-MSP, or if we're really lucky HA will begin flights to MSP? Not sure if SY could fly non-stop MSP-HNL with a 737.
Quoting ck8msp (Reply 2):
I wonder what DL response would be if HA decided to try this route? What about a codeshare with Alaska?

HA and DL do mileage transfers, so I think HA could do this route easily. I think it would be a good route for HA actually. That area is a highly under-served lucrative market to the islands
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iowaman
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:16 am

I'm a little disappointed DL hasn't returned in the MSP-HNL market. NW flew it with DC-10's for a long time before the merger, mostly daily over the years year around IIRC.

Quoting af773atmsp (Thread starter):
sure if SY could fly non-stop MSP-HNL with a 737.

Little too far for a full payload.

Quoting af773atmsp (Thread starter):
So with this incentive would DL be interested in restarting HNL-MSP, or if we're really lucky HA will begin flights to MSP?
HA would be pretty sweet to see in MSP. I'm sure DL would do better with connecting feed however, even with HA offering connections to the islands in Hawaii.

Quoting af773atmsp (Thread starter):
and attracting B6 to start service at MSP.

Hmm, JFK or BOS perhaps? I wouldn't think Florida service but you never know. SY runs year around service to both those destinations plus DL has multiple frequencies on both MSP-JFK and MSP-BOS.

[Edited 2013-01-01 00:20:18]
 
xjramper
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:18 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
HA and DL do mileage transfers, so I think HA could do this route easily. I think it would be a good route for HA actually. That area is a highly under-served lucrative market to the islands

The DL and HA is an extremely weird partnership. No US Mainland, Korea, or Japan count towards bonus mileage accrual. The only places besides inter-island flights are SYD, PPT, MNL and Pago. Above all, none are counted for MQMs.
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LV
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:21 am

I wonder if HA and DL could side a codeshare agreement a la AS?
 
PHX787
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:31 am

Quoting xjramper (Reply 15):
The DL and HA is an extremely weird partnership. No US Mainland, Korea, or Japan count towards bonus mileage accrual. The only places besides inter-island flights are SYD, PPT, MNL and Pago. Above all, none are counted for MQMs.

?? Japan does count. I asked when i was about to book an HNL-HND flight earlier this year (those plans got scrapped when my schedule changed) and HA said that I could earn Sky Miles on that. DL also said I would too.
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xjramper
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:49 am

This is a link from delta.com's website about accrual with HA:

http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_...rs/airlines/hawaiian-airlines.html
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drmlnr1
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:29 pm

B6 to MSP would be awesome! Being located near SAN and having family near MSP I would definitely consider B6 for my travel. As far as HNL goes, I think DL still operates to HNL from MSP albeit with a stop. If someone could convince DL to change it to non-stop, then DL will make money on that route. I do see that route operated by the 787 once DL gets theirs in the 2020's.
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brilondon
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:51 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
I believe MSP is one of the largest Hawaiian markets without nonstop service at this time so it doesn't seem too far fetched to expect it to happen sometime in the foreseeable future. DL or HA would seem like the likely cx to consider it but HA might want to add a few larger markets first (such as ORD or DEN) rather than a smaller un-served market such as MSP.

You would be living in a dream world if you think that it would be profitable. Most government subsidies are to get businesses to locate in their areas or to service the businesses in their area. They don't go out and subsidize operations that don't make sense as a whole. What benefit to Minneapolis would subsidizing a flight to HNL, a place that has little to no economic benefit to the MSP area. Yes, it would be nice to have a non-stop service to HNL, and I am one that would really love to have a faster way to get to my parents home in YXU. It just doesn't make sense economically to the region. You can dream but that all it will ever be, a dream.
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bobnwa
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 20):
Most government subsidies are to get businesses to locate in their areas or to service the businesses in their area.


This is not a government subsidy, but a Metro Airport Commission subsidy. The Airport commission operates as its own entity
 
SESGDL
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting xjramper (Reply 8):
And pax numbers have everything to do with planning new cities. If you are going to start a new route, you need to have to not only rely on O&D traffic, but connecting as well. The fact that DEN had 10 mil more passengers go through it's airport could play a significant factor as to where they start that flight.

Those passengers were divided between 3 hub airlines, MSP functions as a larger hub with DL than any singular airline at DEN.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 11):
As for ICN on KE, has anything publicly been stated, or is it an A-net pipe dream?

O&D has grown by leaps and bounds between MSP-ICN, and with downguaging of equipment between NRT-ICN and less reliance on NRT as a connecting point, as well as the relationship with KE, it's only a matter of time before MSP-ICN is started. ICN is one of the largest transpacific markets from MSP, along with NRT and PVG. I think ICN will start sometime before EOY-2014, especially since this is a market that can be served by an A330 rather than a 777 or something larger.

Jeremy
 
UA787DEN
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:43 pm

The Airports often will cut fees on certain new routes to attract a carrier to start them. Often, there are certain requirements about previous service and other things. But I'm pretty sure that MSP-HNL would qualify for HA. I'm not sure about DL because they flew the route previously.

As far as international connections, DEN will soon have 4 intercontinental flights: KEF, LHR, FRA, and NRT. And why wpuld anyone at all fly HNL-DEN-NRT? ORD obviously has loads more, and MSP has IIRC KEF, LHR, NRT, AMS, CDG. So international connections won't get HA to DEN. WN and F9 have a variety of Mexican and a few Caribbean destinations, but I think all can be reached from ORD, MSP, or cities where there is already HA service.

Also, the DL 787 situation is a mess. Most people, me included, think they will switch the order to the -9. And the 787 is better for Longer haul and bigger name routes than MSP-HNL. However, with the amount of 767/A330 routes it will take, one of those two could start HNL-MSP for DL.
 
BA
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:45 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 10):
The problem with DEN service is that ever since the new airport opened it is a been a quite low yielding airport.

Actually, DEN used to be a high yielding airport up until about 10 years ago. In 2000, United had a 66% market share compared to its current 40% market share. Back then, DEN had no Southwest service and Frontier was a small carrier that posed no real threat to United.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
bobnwa
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:49 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 23):
Also, the DL 787 situation is a mess. Most people, me included, think they will switch the order to the -9. And the 787 is better for Longer haul and bigger name routes




I hardly consider the Delta 787 situation a mess, at least not to Delta management. The Aircraft came in overweight and unable to perform to its promised abilities.
 
trex8
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:55 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 20):
You would be living in a dream world if you think that it would be profitable. Most government subsidies are to get businesses to locate in their areas or to service the businesses in their area. They don't go out and subsidize operations that don't make sense as a whole. What benefit to Minneapolis would subsidizing a flight to HNL, a place that has little to no economic benefit to the MSP area. Yes, it would be nice to have a non-stop service to HNL, and I am one that would really love to have a faster way to get to my parents home in YXU. It just doesn't make sense economically to the region. You can dream but that all it will ever be, a dream.

Believe it or not but the nuts in Washington have been "subsidizing" air fares on unprofitable routes for years! Whether they benefit the local community is a question of what flavor " pork" your congressman and constituents like!
http://www.dot.gov/policy/aviation-p...-air-service/essential-air-service
 
UA787DEN
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:56 pm

True about the service 10 yeas ago. But for foreign or new carriers starting in, the fees were not very attractive, especially if you weren't star Alliance. Many routes have received incentives, but HNL on HA won't, because UA already serves the route. It currently costs over $6,000 to land a 332 in DEN just once.

It costs just under $1,000 to land a 332 in MSP. Add in incentives. Now who looks more attractive?

The fact that the 788 came in overweight is part of what caused the mess. Many say that DL ordered the -8 to get slots for -9 models cheaper. And with all the delivery put offs, it isn't the most stable aircraft or even 787 order. And when DL does get the 787, I doubt they will use it to start MSP-HNL.
 
SANFan
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:10 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
I believe MSP is one of the largest Hawaiian markets without nonstop service at this time...

Just to clarify, I meant that MSP-Hawaii is one of the largest Hawaii-mainland markets with no nonstop service now. The latest info that I have is 2012 Hawaii pax numbers thru Apr and MSP is the 12th largest market; the top 11 markets all have nonstop service on at least one carrier, as do the 13th and 14th largest markets! (This is preliminary data and covers only 4 months of 2012 so I know it's not complete.) And of course this is talking only O&D traffic and doesn't include all the connecting traffic that would flow thru the Twin Cities on DL...

I was not talking about how big MSP is as a metro area, or how it compares to DEN's overall pax traffic, or anything else. My point is that MSP appears to be perhaps the largest US mainland airport with a substantial amount of Hawaii-bound traffic that does NOT currently have nonstop air service to the Islands. However, that doesn't mean to me that HA will serve that market before picking up some other larger Hawaii markets first, such as DEN or CHI (even though they already have nonstop service to HNL on other cx.)

I hope this clarifies my comments. Happy 2013 everyone!

bb
 
Continental
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:12 pm

I am more impressed by the new and surprisingly good food options going to Terminal 2. I could really care less, but man is that terminal bare post-security!
 
Flighty
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:17 pm

Quoting iowaman (Reply 14):
I'm a little disappointed DL hasn't returned in the MSP-HNL market. NW flew it with DC-10's for a long time before the merger, mostly daily over the years year around IIRC.

At peak periods, around 2004, NW had double daily MSP-HNL on DC-10 plus a daily DTW-HNL. This was for holiday peak weeks. Imagine all the fuel. And, MSP was a 747 before that.

The route has potential. I am a little surprised it is not a 763ER route now. One factor may be, everybody used to hit OGG and LIH via HNL transfer. Nowadays, you can transfer on the West Coast and on to your final island destination. Not sure which is preferable. MSP locals might prefer the HNL nonstop. Flow traffic to outer islands will no doubt prefer US Airways at PHX, or UA at SFO, rather than double connecting at MSP and then HNL.
 
xjramper
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:24 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 22):
Those passengers were divided between 3 hub airlines, MSP functions as a larger hub with DL than any singular airline at DEN.

And yet, DL couldn't make the non-stop HNL flights work, even as a larger hub. It doesn't matter where they are coming from. If an airline has the opportunity to make a flight happen with 10 million more people at their disposal, it is a no brainer where they would go.

I like MSP. It's one of my favourites. I wish nothing but success. If HA decides to start a MSP-HNL flight, I wish it nothing but success. Just as an analyst in my prior life, if the mega-hub cannot make a flight work with out any competition, more than likely an airline won't start up a flight on a hope that the catchment area will make it happen. It's just too risky.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 23):
And why wpuld anyone at all fly HNL-DEN-NRT? ORD obviously has loads more, and MSP has IIRC KEF, LHR, NRT, AMS, CDG.

It's kind of a moot point when discussing Hawaii as a destination coming from Europe. If Europeans have a tropical destination in mind, it's usually somewhere around the Mediterranean or the Arab peninsula. Going exEurope is fine as most flights will get them in that day. However, on the way back, they lose two days as they have either a flight that arrives on the west coast by 5 or so in the afternoon, which misses a lot of the European bank. And any other east bound flight arrives as a red eye and then you have to wait until the following afternoon to take a flight back. For most folks it's much easier to find a different tropical destination than heading over to Hawaii.
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UA787DEN
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:09 pm

Quoting xjramper (Reply 31):
DL couldn't make the non-stop HNL flights work

NW sure made it work. DL inherited the large MSP and DTW hubs in the merger. They weren't in the best financial state and the merger had a new set of issues. HNL-MSP sort of stuck out as a route to kill. Routes and frequencies were cut. Also, with the big NYC push, planes were allocated there. But MSP sure has a lot of pax to HNL.

Quoting xjramper (Reply 31):
It's kind of a moot point when discussing Hawaii as a destination coming from Europe

I agree. I stated that MSP has better European connections because someone stated that DEN would be a good HA route because of the variety of Intercontinental and International connections. MSP and ORD have better options, IMO. I think a fun way to do HNL-Europe "round trip" would be HNL-US-EU-NRT-HNL.
 
toering
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:21 pm

Speaking of non-stop MSP-HNL , I flew this route with a return in April 1990 on a NW 747. Was that 747 a -200 or -100? I'm trying to figure out all the flights I've been on and thought this would be an easier question than trying to figure the reg number on these flights. Thanks.
 
TR1
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:30 pm

Would Delta's new 76Z configuration with 26 Business class seats make MSP-HNL viable again? Right now it appears DL's aircraft capable of doing MSP-HNL nonstop have too many premium seats for such a leisure-oriented market.
 
xjramper
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:43 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 32):
NW sure made it work. DL inherited the large MSP and DTW hubs in the merger. They weren't in the best financial state and the merger had a new set of issues. HNL-MSP sort of stuck out as a route to kill. Routes and frequencies were cut. Also, with the big NYC push, planes were allocated there. But MSP sure has a lot of pax to HNL.

Quite honestly, if the route was making good money, it wouldn't have been axed. Plain and simple. If Delta hadn't made such a great profit over the last couple of years, I would be scratching my head at some of their route discontinuations. Obviously, NW at the time only had 3 main hubs and I believe that MSP and DTW were the only two hubs they flew from (SEA/PDX/SFO notwithstanding) to HNL so it made sense to have a MSP nonstop. But the dynamic has changed, along with the amount of hubs and connecting traffic that the combined airline sees. Before the merger, MSP was the largest hub that NW had and it had a HNL flight. Now, ATL is the largest hub that DL has, so they utilize that flight to get to HNL.

Now come 2015, when the majority of the remods are completed and there is a slack of fleet back in the system, I would be willing to bet that DL re-instates this flight. Then again, in the next two to five years, the landscape of Delta and their fleet is going to be completely different as they bring on the 717s and 739s next year, the 50 seaters start slowly dying off and they start retiring the MD80s.
Look ma' no hands!
 
Flighty
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:10 pm

Quoting xjramper (Reply 31):
If an airline has the opportunity to make a flight happen with 10 million more people at their disposal, it is a no brainer where they would g

Even if DEN is the world's largest airport, you would have to justify an HNL flight based on that _airline's_ market size. UA's market at DEN may be smaller than DL's at MSP, including connect opportunities. Just putting that out there.
 
xjramper
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:29 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 36):
Even if DEN is the world's largest airport, you would have to justify an HNL flight based on that _airline's_ market size. UA's market at DEN may be smaller than DL's at MSP, including connect opportunities. Just putting that out there.

Not sure what Hawaiian Air's market share has to do with UAs?
Look ma' no hands!
 
stratosphere
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:41 pm

Quoting toering (Reply 33):
Speaking of non-stop MSP-HNL , I flew this route with a return in April 1990 on a NW 747. Was that 747 a -200 or -100? I'm trying to figure out all the flights I've been on and thought this would be an easier question than trying to figure the reg number on these flights. Thanks.

Don't know which one you flew in 1990 but I flew from HNL to MSP in Feb 1992 on a 747-100 it was a/c 6601 which is now (at least the nose section) in the Smithsonian in Washington DC.
 
NWAROOSTER
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:14 pm

Northwest Airlines was headquartered at MSP. Delta is headquartered at ATL. Delta does not have the same interest in MSP as Northwest did. For Delta, MSP is is just another hub and Delta is is filling up MSP with MD-90s, and other narrow body aircraft. If you want to fly from MSP to HNL, you will have change aircraft at some west coast airport.
Delta has reduced the operation at MSP considerably since the merger and it will stay that way until there is a valid business reason to make improvements in flight operations at MSP.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
MSPNWA
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting af773atmsp (Thread starter):
The Metropolitan Airports Commission (MAC) is apparently offering incentives to any carrier that starts non-stop flights from MSP to Hawaii.

No doubt to try to woo in HA. I'd love to see it, and I think it has a real chance considering HA's use of the 763ER.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 7):
What equipment was previously operated by DL MSP-ATL?

I'm pretty sure this is right, and I'll limit it to about 2005. Anyone is free to correct me if I'm wrong.

-daily DC-10-30 until January 2007
-then A333 daily until Sept. (or very late August?) 2009
-then 5x weekly until June 2010, when it became 4x weekly (3x weekly DTW-HNL was added)
-cut completely in February 2011.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 28):
I was not talking about how big MSP is as a metro area, or how it compares to DEN's overall pax traffic, or anything else. My point is that MSP appears to be perhaps the largest US mainland airport with a substantial amount of Hawaii-bound traffic that does NOT currently have nonstop air service to the Islands.

And that should be no surprise. The MSP area population seems to like going to Hawaii, and so that raises the traffic ranking up a few notches.

Quoting xjramper (Reply 35):
Quite honestly, if the route was making good money, it wouldn't have been axed. Plain and simple.

I think it was one of those cases where Delta felt more money could be made elsewhere.
 
Flytravel
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:11 pm

Quoting af773atmsp (Thread starter):
and attracting B6 to start service at MSP.

Strategically, it should add MSP, MKE as stations and change of ORD to MDW. For MSP, begin with 2x BOS-MSP service and maybe 1x JFK-MSP. Also, the 5 out of 6 slots at DCA which are used for Florida could be moved to IAD or BWI, and the DCA slots could be changed for DCA-MDW with continuation to MSP. Feed would also be coming from BOS and SJU to DCA for atleast the first leg. WN would respond on something like DCA-MDW, but B6 would still be fine, as it's a popular city pair.

Along with BOS, JFK and Chicago service from MSP, B6 could copy the route map of Sun Country in destinations with atleast 1x of SFO, LAX, SAN, DFW, SEA and LAS. Add in MSP-MKE since it's short run as well and B6 could see if WN keeps certain MKE routes.

Some markets like CLT and RDU might not have much a chance really to grow for B6, and B6 should pull out rather than waste resources there, if plane availability is an issue, to get into larger and/or more fragmented markets with better connection flows east and westbound.
 
Prost
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:34 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 27):
The fact that the 788 came in overweight is part of what caused the mess. Many say that DL ordered the -8 to get slots for -9 models cheaper. And with all the delivery put offs, it isn't the most stable aircraft or even 787 order. And when DL does get the 787, I doubt they will use it to start MSP-HNL

DL never ordered the 787, they inherited them from the merger with NW. It's an important distinction because what NW needed the 787 for is different than what DL will use the 787 for in the 2020 timeframe. Boesing's mess up on the 787 made things a lot easier on DL fleet planners.
 
iowaman
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 pm

Quoting Continental (Reply 29):
I am more impressed by the new and surprisingly good food options going to Terminal 2. I could really care less, but man is that terminal bare post-security!
Quoting Flytravel (Reply 41):
Strategically, it should add MSP, MKE as stations and change of ORD to MDW. For MSP, begin with 2x BOS-MSP service and maybe 1x JFK-MSP. Also, the 5 out of 6 slots at DCA which are used for Florida could be moved to IAD or BWI, and the DCA slots could be changed for DCA-MDW with continuation to MSP. Feed would also be coming from BOS and SJU to DCA for atleast the first leg. WN would respond on something like DCA-MDW, but B6 would still be fine, as it's a popular city pair.

Along with BOS, JFK and Chicago service from MSP, B6 could copy the route map of Sun Country in destinations with atleast 1x of SFO, LAX, SAN, DFW, SEA and LAS. Add in MSP-MKE since it's short run as well and B6 could see if WN keeps certain MKE routes.



I would be very, very surprised to see B6 launch routes like MSP-DFW and MSP-MKE. DL and WN have plenty of seats on MSP-MKE, and MSP-DFW is served by DL, AA, SY, and soon to be NK. No reason for B6 to get into a blood bath on routes like MSP-SEA (SY, DL, AS) either. I expect a token presence if B6 comes to MSP to their focus citie(s).
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:47 pm

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 4):
How is DEN a bigger market? MSP has over a million more people in its metro area than DEN does.

Well, according to that oh so reliable source Wiki, DEN MSA is 3.1m and MSP is 3.2m
 
Passedv1
Posts: 411
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:18 am

HA to MSP I think is in the cards...Reading between the lines in recent talks given by Dunkerly, I think Hawaiian will soon (in the next year) announce a NB order of either the MAX or NEO. This will be the 717 replacement and I think they will then switch most of the Hawaii-West Coast traffic to NB's with probably a few WB's on some of the larger markets/busy days of the week. I think they will then start opening some new cities beyond the range of the NB's, i.e. MSP, DEN, Texas, etc. with the freed up WB's.

HA has always said that Europe was a possibility once the A350's came online. It's true that most europeans don't vacation in Hawaii, but HA operates from the premise that there are people with money around the world that would vacation in Hawaii if it were only easily accessible via a non-stop flight. I think you could see HNL-CDG or HNL-LHR by 2020. Of course that assumes Europe hasn't imploded by then.

In the immdiate future though, I think the next domestic city for HA will be BOS.
 
Flytravel
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:27 am

Quoting iowaman (Reply 43):
I would be very, very surprised to see B6 launch routes like MSP-DFW and MSP-MKE. DL and WN have plenty of seats on MSP-MKE, and MSP-DFW is served by DL, AA, SY, and soon to be NK. No reason for B6 to get into a blood bath on routes like MSP-SEA (SY, DL, AS) either. I expect a token presence if B6 comes to MSP to their focus citie(s).

If Sun Country, a very small carrier, can make about a 1x daily on these destination routes work from MSP, why wouldn't jetBlue be able to take a risk on a couple or more westbound destination cities from some of them at MSP? The longer stage length flights aren't on an hourly shuttle basis by DL or AA. Perhaps scratch off DFW, but the others are east-west oriented and would have feed as well on B6. It's less risk at MSP for a B6 focus, which is a big market and far enough west, than say at PIT.

[Edited 2013-01-01 16:28:18]
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 3278
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:28 am

MSP use to be the western most hub for NWA. HNL was really the best fit. Now Delta can the same people NW use to fly via SLC or ATL instead. Its just not as necessary now with the merger
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:36 am

Whatever the incentive, it better be good. MSP-HNL is a long (expensive) route.

Could HA make MSP work on MSP-originating traffic alone? When NW (and briefly DL) operated MSP-HNL, it has the benefit of the connecting hub traffic.

DL isn't dumb, if the route was profitable, they would not have cut it in the first place.
 
Passedv1
Posts: 411
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RE: MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii

Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:43 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 48):
DL isn't dumb, if the route was profitable, they would not have cut it in the first place.

It's not just if the route is profitabel or not, it's if there is something more profitable out there that the aircraft could be utilized on. HNL-MSP is not competing with JFK-LHR (i.e) at the route planner discussion at HA.

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